Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

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Muslim
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#31

Unread post by Muslim » Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:23 am

Originally posted by Abdulla:
The ‘Aqiqa’ or sacrifice at the birth of a new-born is not a ‘fard’ or obligatory duty in Islam; it is a voluntary deed and a recommended Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (saws).

And the above sunnah is definately not a pagan ritual.
Who's talking about whether its obligatory?

And yes, it was originally a pagan ritual which was modified. Learn your own hadiths before making ignorant claims:

Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib: When a boy was born to one of us in the pre-Islamic period, we sacrificed a sheep and smeared his head with its blood; but when Allah brought Islam, we sacrificed a sheep, shaved his head and smeared his head with saffron. - Abu Dawud

jinx
Posts: 254
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#32

Unread post by jinx » Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:41 am

Originally posted by ponga bhori:
May be these coins may reveal Bhora Civilization when unearthed centuries latter. Useful time capsule those foundations.
Oh Puhleez... :) What happened to internet?

Muslim First
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#33

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:13 am

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br. Humble_Saverant_Us

AS

Very well said. You can't axpect that from Br. qiyam. He is like what we say in India " Miya geere magar Tangdi unchi ki unchi" [Miya (Slang for Muslim) fell down but he vainly keeps feet in the air].

I am first to admit that we Muslims in India have incorporated customs inharited from Hindus (Our forefathers). Many of us do not know that some of these customs are in confict with teachings of Islam.

Wasalaam
.

Iranians I know celebrate Nawroze, their new year but they never claim it it is Islamic.

qiyam
Posts: 420
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#34

Unread post by qiyam » Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:19 pm

To All,
Several issues:

The aqiqa as well as the sacrifice of animal is not of pagan ritual origin. You may remember that every Prophet is recorded to have sacrifice an animal for blessings whether for a birth or for a special instance. Arab pagans adopted this custom of the Arab Jews and Christians...not the other way around. The aqiqah is obligatory...because the Prophet said it is the sunnah (thus wajib on the muslim).

The Kaba was first built by Ibrahim Nabi...and was rebuilt several times. The Arab Pagan took hold of the Kaba and turned into a shrine for their clay idols.

The issue of MuslimFirst 5 quarters...is no different than the muslim who wear a tawiz around their neck. Both are used to worn off evil and bad luck from the person or thing. In the case of the 5 quarters the fountain of the house is protected.

Nazr maqam cannot be spent as WE choose. It is different from general charity. Because it is with the tawassul of a religious person shafat...the charity must be given to that person or the representative of the person to use.

Abdulla says: What is the difference between thaal wadhawanu and the act the Hindus do as "aarti"

Qiyam replies: It is prophetic sunnah...as well as sunnah of the Imams. The method is not described in the Quran..but the intent is.

Firstly...I did not reply to Abdulla statement with those words!! So if you quoting me...as least use the right ones. I was responding to Abdulla previous post.

Wadhwanu rasm is similar in some repsects to the Parihaaram and not aarti. The rasm is to lower the najar of evil eye and make dua to strengthen the health and prosperity of the person. The things in the thaal are given away. Things such as lemons, watermelon, and coconuts are believed to have the capacity to absorb negative power or energy. Much like the dates, pomergrantes, etc. are to be eaten for good health and stamina. It is similar to the use of ruqyah, wearing a tawiz, wudhu, duah or other means. Same purpose...different means. The sunnah is the purpose. MuslimFirst will say...it not from the Prophet...well neither is wearing pants and tie to work...or driving..or a lot of other things. These are done holding the original intent the Prophet stated. Remember, the sunnah for istijna is water or sand...not toilet paper.

Muslim First
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#35

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:48 pm

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Brother qiyam;
AS

The basic Beliefs in Islam are:

Allah
Angels of Allah (Malaikah)
Books of Allah (Kutubullah)
Messengers of Allah (Rusulullah)
The Day of Judgement (Yawmuddin)
Predestination or Divine Will (Al-Qadr)
Life after death (Akhirah)

These beliefs have been precisely stated in Al-Imanul Mufassal , the faith in detail:

Amantu Billahi, Wa Malaikathi, wa Kutubih, wa Rusulihi, wal Yawmil Akhiri, wal Qadri, Khairihi wa Sharrahi minal Lahi Taala, Wal Bathi Badal Mawt.

That means:

I believe in Allah, in His Angels, in His Books, in His messengers, in Last day (Day of Judgment) and in the fact everything good or bad is decided by Allah, the Almighty, and in Life after death.

Now if you are Muslim, believe as above then what good 5 quarters buried in foundations or your wadhawnu ceremony will do? You know brother everything good or bad happening to us is decided by Allah. All you have to say “Bismillah” before you act.

True Muslims have faith in Allah. Those who se faith is weak go looking for Pirs or somethig like that or run from Qabr to qabr and believe in Nazar or Tawiz etc. etc.

I guess we have argued lot on this subject and nither you nor I will give ground.

Wasalaam

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qiyam
Posts: 420
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#36

Unread post by qiyam » Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:06 pm

Dear MuslimFirst,
Unfortunately, you have argued with pure ignorance...and only a basic level of Islamic knowledge.

Now if you are Muslim, believe as above then what good 5 quarters buried in foundations or your wadhawnu ceremony will do? You know brother everything good or bad happening to us is decided by Allah. All you have to say “Bismillah” before you act.

Why would I say bismillah..if Allah is deciding good and bad. Why read the Quran...if Allah is deciding everything good and bad. What was the purpose of the Prophets to teach us anything...if Allahs is deciding everything good and bad?

See your problem is you don't understand most of the stuff your preaching.

It is because evil is NOT from Allah but exists in this world that I must by certain means protect myself...as the Prophet taught. Allah gives us the will to choose and stay on the right path (not fatalism like the wahabis teach). Shaytan in every step tries to pull us away. So we perform salat and make duah to strenghten our IMAN in Allah. We fast and give sadaqa to humble ourselves. We follow strict guidelines taught by those who are rightly guided to insure salvation. This is what Allah teaches us through the Quran and His Prophets.

So when you make ignorant statement like
True Muslims have faith in Allah. Those who se faith is weak go looking for Pirs or somethig like that or run from Qabr to qabr and believe in Nazar or Tawiz etc. etc.

you disregard the intent of these actions taught by the Prophet. The Prophet taught to wear a tawiz, to look to the graves for your future and as a reminder. It is by these means that our IMAN in Allah is strenghten...not weaken. It is by ignorant statement like your that it is weaken.

Muslim First
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#37

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:22 pm

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The Prophet taught to wear a tawiz, to look to the graves for your future and as a reminder
Tawiz you wear has at least Kalimah of Allah on it. The coins my friend buried had no Kalimah on it except probably "in God we trust". And he invoked name of pious dead persons name not Allah's.

Yes graves remind you your future. But going to local graveyard and can suffice. You do not have to go to Karballah or Bombay or London.

My brother it is not fatalism but Allah says you remember me, do good, stay away from bad and I will take care of you. I will watch over you. I am as close to you as your jagular vain. If Allah is that close, Why worry?

Wasalaam

(PS I am not Wahabi. I follow Islam as taught by his last prophet,aka Sunni Madhab)

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qiyam
Posts: 420
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#38

Unread post by qiyam » Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:59 pm

Dear MuslimFirst,
I did not call you a wahabi...but the things you write are based on wahabi fiqh..not ahlus sunnah.

"Tawiz you wear has at least Kalimah of Allah on it. The coins my friend buried had no Kalimah on it except probably "in God we trust". And he invoked name of pious dead persons name not Allah's."

The name he invoke is a wali of Allah...which according to the Quran we are to seek in nearness to gain favor of Allah. We've had this discussion before.

"Yes graves remind you your future. But going to local graveyard and can suffice. You do not have to go to Karballah or Bombay or London."

--Based on what...it is a required rite of the Hajj to visit Rasullah grave and Jannatul Baqi. Are making up your own religion as you go???

"My brother it is not fatalism but Allah says you remember me, do good, stay away from bad and I will take care of you. I will watch over you. I am as close to you as your jagular vain. If Allah is that close, Why worry?"

---Again you've mashed up three different topics to form your own conclusion. Allah is closer than your jugular vain refered to Him knowing what your thinking. Allah is close...but even than shaytan will play his games. This Allah has said. The evil eye will draw you away from Allah...and Allah will only assist you if you make the effort to be near Him. This is not an early road...and Allah will not help those who just say they want help..they must mean it and strive for it (fi sabillah). We must make the decision and effort to strive in the life Allah wants us to live...and that is when Allah will protect you and help you. Allah says you take one step towards me...He will take 10 step towards you. But He also said you take one step away from me....He will take 10 away from you!

Everything is under the Qadr of Allah...it is not Allah that caused or lead to the action to occur...but our deeds.

Abdulla
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#39

Unread post by Abdulla » Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:08 pm

Respected Brother Qiyam,

How does one identify a Awliya whom a believer invokes?

Can an awliya hear even if he is dead?

Muslim First
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#40

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:11 pm

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--Based on what...it is a required rite of the Hajj to visit Rasullah grave and Jannatul Baqi. Are making up your own religion as you go???
Br. qiyam

Visit to Madina is not part of Hujj.All the Hujj rites are completed in Mecca.

To visit the holey city of Madina, where the Prophet is resting is one of the greatest blessings of Allah. Next Hujj, the highest pre-eminence and the greatest blessing lie in paying visit to the most scacred Mosque of the greatest of the Prophets, the beloved messenge of Allah. Love and respect of Prophet, in facts stands as the pre-requisite of IMAN, and as such one must feel natural urge to visit the second most holiest of holey places after KABA. The fact that after reaching the sacred territories, one does not come back without paying homage to the Holey Prophet. Furthermore, attendance of the Holey Mosque and offering salutation to the Prophet of Islam at his resting place bears great reward of blessings which cannot be achived from afar.

No brother qiyam, visiting Prophet's grave and Jannatul Baqi are not required rites of Hujj. I am not making up the religion but visit to Madina is not part of Hujj rites.

Wasalaam

.

qiyam
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#41

Unread post by qiyam » Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:30 pm

Dear Abdulla,
How does one identify a Awliya whom a believer invokes?

--This is based on those originally identified by the Prophet.

Can an awliya hear even if he is dead?
--the body is dead the spirtual is still alive.

Dear MuslimFirst,

Visit to Madina is not part of Hujj. All the Hujj rites are completed in Mecca.

So to visit your local graveyard will suffice as you wrote versus going to Madinah, Jannutal Baqi, Kar'bala, Najaf...do you see how odd that sounds?

You are correct visiting Madinah is not a Hajj rite...but a sunnah of the Hajj journey.

Beyond this side note...you didn't respond to the original points you brought up.

Abdulla
Posts: 57
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Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#42

Unread post by Abdulla » Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:16 pm

The Prophet (saws) said that a believer is only allowed to travel (specifically) to three places of worship: The Sacred House in Makkah, the Prophet’s Mosque in Medina, and the Masjid al Aqsa in Jerusalem.

qiyam
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:01 am

Re: Pehli Raat thal rasm ..

#43

Unread post by qiyam » Wed Mar 12, 2003 2:50 pm

Dear Abdulla,
Firstly hadith references masjids...not ziyarat. Secondly, Maulana Ali and Imam Husayn were not murdered yet when the hadith was stated...so it doesn't apply to the discussion in the first place.

Neither of you have addressed the original issues.