Are bohras in danger of getting extinct?

[Al Zulfiqar]

Maybe this sounds like an apocryphal question, when our numbers are growing and more and more markaz's and masjids are being built; but just think, we are only about 600,000 bohras registered worldwide (as reported by Arif and some others who are in the 'know') and in many towns and cities, there are many bohras who are unregistered and have no interest in attending functions and the usual crap of majlises, urus's, etc etc, tired by the constant demands for money and fed-up with all the tyranny.

in the west, perhaps 25-40% of bohras never attend or very rarely do. in ottawa for instance, i personally know that although there are about 40 bohra families, only some 22 are registered. the rest dont give a damn and dont keep contacts with the orthos at all. in fact, most orthos are not even aware that the 'others' exist!

in mississauga, brampton, oakville, milton and hamilton area, i have reason to believe that there are atleast 20 families not registered and who dont care if they are not. inspite of all the herculean efforts of the kothar to keep us bound to the markaz/masjid with maljises, sabaks, mohalla ni majlis every fridays, friday naasto, sitaabi na thaals, rajab ni kheer puris, sports and picnics, bbq's, business meetings, live relays, etc etc, besides the ramzan and moharam days, there are still many who show lots of apathy, as the end result they know is getting milked and screwed!

if after 1400 years, this community is still around 6 lakhs, is there a real possibility we might go the way of the parsees? with the kothar showing arrogance and kicking out those who dont pay up as demanded, or refusing to register re-located bohras who dont have proper documentation or refusing raza for travel or functions if your house is on mortgage or harassing you for the same, is it any wonder that many bohras have let their dues pile up and have lapsed on payments for many years?

many bohras (who have not joined the progressives) have quietly slipped out and become sunnis or ithanasharis, some have just given up on religion and some live in a limbo, in a sort of no-man's-land. right now, to the ortho jamaats, this doesnt seem like any great shakes, but since no one knows the real figures, i feel this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of a future disaster for us as a community.

my purpose in posting this is to stir up a debate and open the eyes of the fat cats who are plying their fiddles while the hardcore ortho numbers dwindle. while this may please some, it should be a concern for us as our (original and ethical) way of life may soon disappear, if it has not already.

[admirer]

If the number of orthos is decreasing, then the progressives should be happy rather than being concerned.

[Al Zulfiqar]

If the number of orthos is decreasing, then the progressives should be happy rather than being concerned.

admirer, read my post again. it is typical of ortho abdes like yrself to approach anything to do with reform with blind prejudice and hatred.

[Smart]

@AZ
I would like to rephrase your question. Bohras are not getting extinct, it is the orthies that are reducing in numbers. Let us try and understand why, this is according to the master plan.

The secret master plan is like this:
"Make as much money as possible, by all means as possible, then get out as fast as possible"

The main agenda of the last two Syednas has been to make over all the community properties in their name. Now, that process was almost completed in the tenure of Taher Saifuddin. Then the agenda was to extract as much cash as possible, this process will go on for as long as it works and there are orthies to squeeze. Once the numbers dwindle, then the family has all the assets and the money and no responsibility to anybody.

This is when, these so called Shahzadas will come out in the open as money bags, and the next few generations at least won't have to worry about the money.

The whole rigmarole has nothing to do with religion or anything resembling it, it is a master plan to make big money asap.

[Smart]

This is exactly why the whole establishment is not bothered about dwindling numbers, on the other hand they are interested in tightening the screws, so that even the most deluded will also rebel and leave them to enjoy their moolah. Just note the rebellions in various cities happening in the last few years.

Great plan isn't it ?

[Al Zulfiqar]

smart,

i have to agree with you on most points. but dont you see that if more and more bohras are no longer remaining within the bohra shia limits and converting or lapsing into other faiths, then the numbers are going to dwindle?

from the lack of abde fanatics' responses, it seems they dont care. a typical "kuve ka mendhak" mentality..

[Haggi]

To you all,
Yes, i agree that Bohraism is coming to its demise in about 20 to 50 years. We have been so cushioned with the Mohollah mentality that we have failed to introspect the faults
we have in our faith. Ismailism has always been a problem in our theology as a lot of power have vested on one individual emerging from the Ahlay Bhait, Imams and our Dais.

These individuals have been responsible for all the schisms that has occured in our history. Some of them may have been righteous but reading history many have been at fault.
The Shia notion that the Imams and Ahlay Bait are infallible and the Dai of Bohras falling into same category leaves you to ponder that who is right.

So now we are down to 600K registered Bohras and maybe another 100K unregistered Dawoodis, where that get us?
Why has Dawoodies not increased in population, are we going the same way as the Parsess. I would not be surprised.

[SBM]

Haggi
It is a very serious question and unfortunately KOTHAR does not really care. Their usual response is TUDHA HOYE LEKEEN MOULA MAA YAQEEN RAKHWAWAL HOYE(read small but one who can contribute financially)
The other reasons being, the younger generation specailly in West and to some extent in Southeast Asia, they go to Majaalis till they get mature enough or college age, and then they slowly disappear from Waiz and mingle with other friends.
In USA itself Murtaza (Asif) Dahodwala did not participate actively till his wife became sick and his brother who lives in Florida has never ever participated in any Bohra Majaalis even though he is e jamaat card carrying member so am I and 3 other families. I know atleast 12 Bohra families who are tired to weekly Majaalis and Maatam and decided to cut down, stay home and go to either Jafferia or Sunni establishments for their Nikkah or Burial depending upon who children are marrying. The other factor is lack of compatible partners for Bohras in their own community to marry. Once they marry outside Bohra, majority do not really care to keep their identity.
Hopefully some one pays attention and KOTHAR changes with time and reconsider their HITLER style dictate of wearing same kind of clothes and rigid attendance. The DAWAT is to invite with humility and persistence, In Kothar case, they kick you out with embarrassment did and heavy hand

[SBM]

That also brings another factor to mind
CAN ANY ONE QUANTIFY HOW MANY SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGES HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN USA DURING THE TAARUF PROGRAM
This is a very good program and I do commend Kothar for such schemes but their insistence for wearing QUOMI LIBAS discourages lot of Bohras Boys and Girls to participate This is in particular to USA.
Decision making Kotharis who are visiting this forum should consider relaxing their rules about Quomi Libas for Taaruf Program and make it less rigid (but keep it within the Islamic and our cultural framework) and allow more Bohras without asking RAZA and Safai Chitti and I am sure many will participate and that is one way to bring them back in fold

[admirer]

"Make as much money as possible, by all means as possible, then get out as fast as possible"


The whole rigmarole has nothing to do with religion or anything resembling it, it is a master plan to make big money asap.

Smart,

You shall make a smart investment banker.. or are you one already

And to point out.. If you think that orthies are dwindling in numbers, then it is a reason for you to rejoice more..

[Smart]

@Admirer,
It is not about me, but about the system called Kothar traditionally, now that the word has become a cuss word, it is called the vazaarat. The system is lorded over by who, you know.

By the way, I am not an investment banker, but a business plan designer and CEO mentor. I have yet to come across a business plan than is more sound. (My comment about the plan being sound is not about the ethical part, but the financial part. Anyway, what do the Kothar and ethics have to do with each other?)

[mass]

http://www.bohrashia.com/ouro.html

i'm very much suprised to see this site ,,,can anyone tell me more details abt this ????

[mass]

???????

[Hussain_KSA]

Dear brother Mass.

This group is consisting five or six families and it is break away faction of Alwi Bohras. They have converted to Shia Ithna Ashri and got some financial help from Iran most probably. There are no activities by them and they don't have any new member till today.

Best regards

[mass]

Dear brother Mass.

This group is consisting five or six families and it is break away faction of Alwi Bohras. They have converted to Shia Ithna Ashri and got some financial help from Iran most probably. There are no activities by them and they don't have any new member till today.

Best regards

U mean all the activities which is written on thr website is fake???or community is hidding this bitter realtity so that no more ppl can go in search for truth???? i can see huge number of bohra ppl visits isna shari imam bargha n attend mujlis.n they accept this reality that they get true knowledge from isna shari scholars which they unable to get from bohra mullahs .

[anajmi]

This is something interesting on that link

The Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) said:
O' Fatimah! Every eye shall be weeping on the Day of Judgment except the eye which has shed tears over the tragedy of Hussain (A.S.) for surely, that eye shall be laughing and shall be given the glad tidings of the bounties and comforts of Paradise.
(Bihar al-Anwar, vol,: 44;pg,:293)

Who is Bihar al-Anwar? Is there any hadith regarding the prophet talking about the tragedy of Hussain? Did the prophet know about this tragedy? If the prophet knew then why do the Shia keep saying that the prophet wanted to declare Hazrat Ali as his successor but Hazrat Abu Bakr and Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Uthman prevented him from doing it? Couldn't he have done it while he was narrating this to Hazrat Fatima? And if he knew about the tragedy, then why was he even trying to declare Hazrat Ali as his successor? If Hazrat Ali had been his successor, then as per the shias there wouldn't have been a tragedy in Karbala.

[ghulam muhammed]

http://www.bohrashia.com/ouro.html

i'm very much suprised to see this site ,,,can anyone tell me more details abt this ????

Some years back it was rumoured that Late Mr.Zain Rangoonwala (Chairman of Bombay Mercantile Co-op Bank Ltd) alongwith his family had converted to this faith after he was socially boycotted by kothar because he had thwarted all attempts by the shahzadas to forcibly take control of the bank for their ulterior and malicous purpose. This was a very big issue at that time in which a huge number of bohras and employees of the bank had suffered immensely

[Hussain_KSA]

Dear brother Mass.

This group is consisting five or six families and it is break away faction of Alwi Bohras. They have converted to Shia Ithna Ashri and got some financial help from Iran most probably. There are no activities by them and they don't have any new member till today.

Best regards

U mean all the activities which is written on thr website is fake???or community is hidding this bitter realtity so that no more ppl can go in search for truth???? i can see huge number of bohra ppl visits isna shari imam bargha n attend mujlis.n they accept this reality that they get true knowledge from isna shari scholars which they unable to get from bohra mullahs .

You are right that so many bohras visiting Imam bargah and attending Majalis of Ithna Ashri as they want to hear about tragdy of Karbala and they are fed up of hearing miracles of 51 & 52 and irrelevent purjosh Matam. around 80 families in Baltimore, Germentown and Chicago, Saint luise has converted to Ithna Ashri Shias. They are mostly migrated Hydrabadis.

However they dont call them shia bohra and they are just shias now. The term Shia bohri and website is just for some selfish intreset.

[mass]

U mean all the activities which is written on thr website is fake???or community is hidding this bitter realtity so that no more ppl can go in search for truth???? i can see huge number of bohra ppl visits isna shari imam bargha n attend mujlis.n they accept this reality that they get true knowledge from isna shari scholars which they unable to get from bohra mullahs .

You are right that so many bohras visiting Imam bargah and attending Majalis of Ithna Ashri as they want to hear about tragdy of Karbala and they are fed up of hearing miracles of 51 & 52 and irrelevent purjosh Matam. around 80 families in Baltimore, Germentown and Chicago, Saint luise has converted to Ithna Ashri Shias. They are mostly migrated Hydrabadis.

However they dont call them shia bohra and they are just shias now. The term Shia bohri and website is just for some selfish intreset.

ahaan ,,,u mean loads of ppl r leaving bohra school of thought n accepting 12ers faith :O i think thats a news.

[Hussain_KSA]

Dear Mass.

It is truth. If you need contact details in USA for some of them let me know. I know at least 25 families who has converted fully to Shia Ithna Ashri faith.

Regards

[accountability]

Hussain, this is really a news to me. Well I do believe that due to unwise and coercive behaviour of bohr jamat many have been disillusioned. Progressive jamats are one example. But leaving totally is big news.

[mass]

Dear Mass.

It is truth. If you need contact details in USA for some of them let me know. I know at least 25 families who has converted fully to Shia Ithna Ashri faith.

Regards

Thanx Hussain for providing this much of info.Hussain tell me what was the reaction of jammat on the converters.how they dealt wid thm whn they came to know abt the conversion of few families????here in karachi jammat is to rigid,,,though many families visits shia's majalis n inspired alot but whn it came to withdraw from thm they find it most difficult .

[Hussain_KSA]

Brother Mass.

Kotharis were rather happy as they don't want any one who question their authority. I think they should change the word " Fatimi Dawat" to " Burhani Cult" as there is no dawat and no one is embracing Bohra religion any more. They are just happy in their own cult.

As far as bohras in USA converting to shia ithna ashri faith is concerned, most of them are from Hydrabad – India who were ex communicated and they found no religious activities in USA. Instead of being in a hanged situation they preferred to convert themselves to Shia Ithna ashri faith. It was a wise decision I think.

Besides, few abde kind of families who were fed up with Kothar dictation too joined Shia group. While 2 families has adopted sunni faith.

During the research it was found that only in Marathwada region of Maharashtra there are 10 to 12 families living in villages and below poverty line are unaware of their own religion. They just knew that they are bohras.

Late Zulfiquar Hussain from Aurangabad has done a lot to bring such families in mainstream Dawoodi bohra faith by inviting and hosting them during the months of Ramadan and Muharram.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Kotharis were rather happy as they don't want any one who question their authority. I think they should change the word " Fatimi Dawat" to " Burhani Cult" as there is no dawat and no one is embracing Bohra religion any more. They are just happy in their own cult.

.

bro. hussain,

not only is there no 'daawat', even the word 'dai', is now redundant, as the last few dai's are no longer in the business of inviting others into our faith. in the last 100 years i have not heard of any one willingly converting and accepting our faith, except due to marraige. our trump card in attracting and converting others into our deen used to be free and delicious food. in galiyakot, dongaam, and in our other pilgrimage centres in rajasthan, m.p and gujrat, our previous dais deliberately carried out a systematic campaign of wooing non bohras with food, education and humane treatment. most such poor and illiterate people from the bheel, daang and vaghri tribes were impressed with our hospitality, humility and cleanliness. stories spread of the miracles of the unending and limitless supply of food flowing from our 'deghs', mainly donated by wealthy and philantropic bohras like sir adamajee peerbhoy and thousands of others, who gave freely of their time and money.

in only a matter of 100 years, that same spirit of serving humanity and spreading our faith by using our jamaats, has been transformed into an instrument to loot money, oppress and control.

the syedna should stop using the word dai to describe himself, perhaps his newly adopted pretensions at being a 'sultan' more aptly describe him, and his invisible fatemi mission should now be termed 'taheri dawat'.

so the correct terminology should be: taheri daawat na sultan ul mutlaq, sultan al ajal, sultan al bawasir, aqa va maula, abul qaid johar, allah na sultan, vajihun neel, mansoorul yemen, natiq-e quran, haqiqi kaaba, ilah al ard, ghaib na maalik, shafeeq bawa, nooraniya qudsaniya... blah blah blah etc....

[Aarif]

in the last 100 years i have not heard of any one willingly converting and accepting our faith, except due to marraige.

Br. AZ,

The kothar tries to even discourage this nowadays. One of my very close friend got married to a sunni girl. His parents and relatives wanted him to get his nikah done by bohri janaab. The janaab being an real asshole told this guy that the girls parents and she will have to give Misaq and also, say laanat to the three sunni khalifas. The girls father being a devout Sunni obviously disagreed. Hence, even after one year till today they have failed to convince the janaab to perform the bohri Nikah ceremony.. Our community has become extremely close and intolerant to other faiths...

[Al Zulfiqar]

Our community has become extremely close and intolerant to other faiths...

i have to correct that. its not our community that has become extremely intolerant and closed minded. its our evil leadership.

our community has become extremely subservient and spineless in the face of terrorism in the name of the 'dai na farmaan', which are equated with allah's farmaans.

[JC]

Bro AZ and others .........

Bring MONEY to any Kothari and he will do anything ........

Accept Dai as Allah, and be their Slave ........ and you will go to Janat .......

[Smart]

Have you noticed something ?

For the last few days, if you google "dawoodi bohra", this site comes out at the top.

It possibly means:
1. This site has greater credibilty and so attracts more hits.
2. Youngsters, who are more tech savvy, are coming here more frequently.
3. Even orthies, prefer to visit here and have started hedging their bets, with the old man really old and no road map ahead.

Good sign or what?

Please share your views.

[mumin]

bro smart: great news. The mumineen are finally seeing the light. The truth will be out and in the end the truth will prevail. The pharohs of egypt called themselves god for centuries, but finally the truth had won. By the will of Allah ,sooner or later the truth will be out and people will come to know about the attrocities of the kothar.

[Haggi]

Hopefully, the majority Bohras will finally realise that the "king has no clothes". However I'm sceptical if we will be able to put "the genie back into the lamp". We have created a Frankenstenian monster who is out of control and by keeping us in their clutches are also leading us to go astray. Nobody knows what the outcome of Bohoraism in the next 50 years is going to be but I fear further schisms to be part of the future and reduce the numbers of practising Bohras even more.
We just have to recall history of Ismailism/Bohras, We have seen so many schisms right from after the time of Imam Jaffar Sadiq to our present Daiship that I sometime wonder if the office of Imamate/Daiship is flawed as so much power, faith,belief is vested on one being's infallibility making us oblivious to their faults. I, for one,after reading a lot of history of early Ismailism have come to recognise many short comings in many of them. Eg. the Fatimid caliphs/Imams lived a lavish and extravagant life style in huge palaces. You just have to look at how so many of them were murdered among themselves This was clearly consolidation of power and wealth by way of elimination. It makes you question what was so righteous about them and what makes them so special and infallible. The history of the Dai's have a similar chequered history with murder by poisoning not uncommon but will allow the fact that most of them were pious and religion was their main focus unlike the present regime.
I may have opened a Pandora's box by bringing up this subject as it goes right against our tenets of our faith but I'm trying to
be a devil's advocate here to make other on this forum to try and convince me and others to the opposite.
The Kothar at present is practising the same thing and they have been hugely successful. They have consolidated power and wealth and now have subjugated us to their wanting.

So the million dollar question is what do we do about this? Are we willing to go extinct or take some steps to correct the regress and go the Parsee way