how u chose imam?
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haqqun nafs
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:08 am
how u chose imam?
this question goes to prog's,i would like to know who and on what basis leads your prayers in mosque?and who leads your waez?
Re: how u chose imam?
i thought you advised people not to come and you only visit this forum to have fun then why you want to know how other pray
unless you are interested in joining the movement and thinking of becoming a leader lol:
unless you are interested in joining the movement and thinking of becoming a leader lol:
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: how u chose imam?
Here are some thoughts on prayer leaders.
I got it from here;
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/imam.htm
Imam
Arabic: 'imām
1. In the mosque
2. Shi'i Islam. The highest leader
3. Shi'i Islam. Modern reinterpretations
4. Sunni Islam. Caliphs
5. Sunni Islam. Eminence
Imams of Twelver Shi'ism
Ali 656-661
Hassan 661-669
Husayn 669-680
Ali Zayn al-Abidin 680-712/3
Muhammad al-Baqir 713-743
Jafar as-Sadiq 743-765
Musa al-Kazim 765-799
Ali ar-Rida 765-818
Muhammad at-Taqi 818-835
Ali l-Hadi 835-868
Hassan al-Askari 868-873
Muhammad al Mahdi 873-?
Term used in Islam for denoting a person with special qualities relevant to the religion. The term is used 7 times in the singular and 5 times in the plural (a'imma) in the Koran, although the contemporary meaning of the term is not based on the Koran, but rather on theological developments.
The term "imam" is used in many different contexts, and with different meanings. Five different ways of understanding the term are explained below, but there has never been any attempt to create a consolidated system for the different usages. It differs from group to group, from sect to sect and sometimes even from mosque to mosque.
In Shi'i Islam the theological concepts related to the imam are the very foundations upon which the rest of the theology rests. In Sunni Islam the term "imam" is used principally as a title, and has minimal importance in theology.
In the mosque
The congregational prayer performed in the mosque is supposed to have a leader, and this person is called "imam." In the standard interpretation, being imam is not a profession, nor is it a qualification: The imam is imam only as long as he is leading the prayer.
Any respected Muslim who is normally well-trained in leading prayer, as-Salat, can be an imam. In general, it is the most learned and most respected person in the assembly who is offered the honour of being imam.
However, in modern times, many mosques have made their imam into something more: an employed leader of the congregation, a counterpart of a priest, nothing less. The imam may be a spokesman for the members of the congregation and an adviser in all questions that relate somehow to religion.
Shi'i Islam. The highest leader
There are several different nuances in views of the "imam" among the Shi'is, but a common assumption is that he is the leader of all Muslims, and, by extension, a leader in the world. In Twelver Shi'i Islam, imams existed only through the first centuries of Muslim history, possibly into the 10th century.
There are differences about what makes an imam an imam, and therefore who may become imam. At the time of the first imam, Ali, there was only one view, even if the imamship had not yet been defined. The original idea about the imam intends that he:
Be a man of direct descent of either Husayn or his brother Hassan
Not be a minor
Be sound in mind and body
Have competent knowledge of theology
Have the capacity of being a ruler
The imam is supposed to have a special relationship to God — to have something that comes close to divine powers. The imam is supposed to be the guide of the human race, in both religious as well as secular issues. Due to such expectations, there can only be one imam at a time.
Due to his close relationship to God, he is the only one who fully understands all aspects of Islam, the infallible and only one who can give interpretations of the Koran and the hadiths. Hence, he is the only one who can rule Muslim society on a day to day basis.
Moreover, among many Shi'is there is an idea that there are two types of imams: The true and the false. The false imams are the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs, while the true imams are the ones in the list to the left.
According to the Twelver Shi'is — the largest Shi'i group — there were 12 imams, of which the last went into occultation around 941 CE and is expected back in the form of a Mahdi (a saviour character with many similarities to the Messiah in Judaism and Christianity).
Along the line of the 12 imams, there were many disputes over who was the right one. Records show that there were more than 40 Shi'i sects growing out of these disputes. The first group, the now extinct Saba'iyya, thought that Ali had become divine, and went into occultation instead of dying.
With all imams, save Husayn, groups differed over who was the right imam. Most of these groups have since long disappeared, but a couple of them still exist.
After the 4th imam (died in 712 or 713 CE), one group claimed that Zayd was the rightful new imam, and from this the Zaydis emerged.
Some years later (in 765 CE), another group claimed that Isma¢il was the rightful 7th imam, and from their point of view the Isma'ilis developed. At a later stage they either became absorbed by a non-Muslim faith or came to incorporate other belief systems, thus creating an independent religion. In the times when Isma'ilism was still part of Islam, the Druze faith would emerge from within their ranks.
The Zaydis believe that there can be more than one imam at one time, and that there can be periods when there are no imams at all.
Shi'i Islam. Modern reinterpretations
With Ayatollah Khomeini, a new orientation took hold in Twelver Shi'ism. Many of the qualities earlier resting with the imam alone, were determined to be within the reach of the most learned men within their respective branches of Islam.
Hence, Khomeini, and his associates, could efficiently rule the religious life of Iran, something that would not have been possible if the older ideas about the imam should continue to prevail (where the imam alone was the rightful leader of the Muslim community).
Sunni Islam. Caliphs
As the leaders of the community, the caliphs have been called "imams." Since there are no longer any caliphs, this use of the term "imam" is of minimal importance.
Sunni Islam. Eminence
As a way of expressing eminence for certain learned men inside Islam, the term "imam" may be added to the their names. Examples of learned men being called "imam" are the founders of the schools of Sharia, and the great theologian al-Ghazzali.
******************************************
In Ismaili Agakhani religion anybody can lead their Dua. Aga Khan for record has not led any dua sessons.
I got it from here;
http://lexicorient.com/e.o/imam.htm
Imam
Arabic: 'imām
1. In the mosque
2. Shi'i Islam. The highest leader
3. Shi'i Islam. Modern reinterpretations
4. Sunni Islam. Caliphs
5. Sunni Islam. Eminence
Imams of Twelver Shi'ism
Ali 656-661
Hassan 661-669
Husayn 669-680
Ali Zayn al-Abidin 680-712/3
Muhammad al-Baqir 713-743
Jafar as-Sadiq 743-765
Musa al-Kazim 765-799
Ali ar-Rida 765-818
Muhammad at-Taqi 818-835
Ali l-Hadi 835-868
Hassan al-Askari 868-873
Muhammad al Mahdi 873-?
Term used in Islam for denoting a person with special qualities relevant to the religion. The term is used 7 times in the singular and 5 times in the plural (a'imma) in the Koran, although the contemporary meaning of the term is not based on the Koran, but rather on theological developments.
The term "imam" is used in many different contexts, and with different meanings. Five different ways of understanding the term are explained below, but there has never been any attempt to create a consolidated system for the different usages. It differs from group to group, from sect to sect and sometimes even from mosque to mosque.
In Shi'i Islam the theological concepts related to the imam are the very foundations upon which the rest of the theology rests. In Sunni Islam the term "imam" is used principally as a title, and has minimal importance in theology.
In the mosque
The congregational prayer performed in the mosque is supposed to have a leader, and this person is called "imam." In the standard interpretation, being imam is not a profession, nor is it a qualification: The imam is imam only as long as he is leading the prayer.
Any respected Muslim who is normally well-trained in leading prayer, as-Salat, can be an imam. In general, it is the most learned and most respected person in the assembly who is offered the honour of being imam.
However, in modern times, many mosques have made their imam into something more: an employed leader of the congregation, a counterpart of a priest, nothing less. The imam may be a spokesman for the members of the congregation and an adviser in all questions that relate somehow to religion.
Shi'i Islam. The highest leader
There are several different nuances in views of the "imam" among the Shi'is, but a common assumption is that he is the leader of all Muslims, and, by extension, a leader in the world. In Twelver Shi'i Islam, imams existed only through the first centuries of Muslim history, possibly into the 10th century.
There are differences about what makes an imam an imam, and therefore who may become imam. At the time of the first imam, Ali, there was only one view, even if the imamship had not yet been defined. The original idea about the imam intends that he:
Be a man of direct descent of either Husayn or his brother Hassan
Not be a minor
Be sound in mind and body
Have competent knowledge of theology
Have the capacity of being a ruler
The imam is supposed to have a special relationship to God — to have something that comes close to divine powers. The imam is supposed to be the guide of the human race, in both religious as well as secular issues. Due to such expectations, there can only be one imam at a time.
Due to his close relationship to God, he is the only one who fully understands all aspects of Islam, the infallible and only one who can give interpretations of the Koran and the hadiths. Hence, he is the only one who can rule Muslim society on a day to day basis.
Moreover, among many Shi'is there is an idea that there are two types of imams: The true and the false. The false imams are the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs, while the true imams are the ones in the list to the left.
According to the Twelver Shi'is — the largest Shi'i group — there were 12 imams, of which the last went into occultation around 941 CE and is expected back in the form of a Mahdi (a saviour character with many similarities to the Messiah in Judaism and Christianity).
Along the line of the 12 imams, there were many disputes over who was the right one. Records show that there were more than 40 Shi'i sects growing out of these disputes. The first group, the now extinct Saba'iyya, thought that Ali had become divine, and went into occultation instead of dying.
With all imams, save Husayn, groups differed over who was the right imam. Most of these groups have since long disappeared, but a couple of them still exist.
After the 4th imam (died in 712 or 713 CE), one group claimed that Zayd was the rightful new imam, and from this the Zaydis emerged.
Some years later (in 765 CE), another group claimed that Isma¢il was the rightful 7th imam, and from their point of view the Isma'ilis developed. At a later stage they either became absorbed by a non-Muslim faith or came to incorporate other belief systems, thus creating an independent religion. In the times when Isma'ilism was still part of Islam, the Druze faith would emerge from within their ranks.
The Zaydis believe that there can be more than one imam at one time, and that there can be periods when there are no imams at all.
Shi'i Islam. Modern reinterpretations
With Ayatollah Khomeini, a new orientation took hold in Twelver Shi'ism. Many of the qualities earlier resting with the imam alone, were determined to be within the reach of the most learned men within their respective branches of Islam.
Hence, Khomeini, and his associates, could efficiently rule the religious life of Iran, something that would not have been possible if the older ideas about the imam should continue to prevail (where the imam alone was the rightful leader of the Muslim community).
Sunni Islam. Caliphs
As the leaders of the community, the caliphs have been called "imams." Since there are no longer any caliphs, this use of the term "imam" is of minimal importance.
Sunni Islam. Eminence
As a way of expressing eminence for certain learned men inside Islam, the term "imam" may be added to the their names. Examples of learned men being called "imam" are the founders of the schools of Sharia, and the great theologian al-Ghazzali.
******************************************
In Ismaili Agakhani religion anybody can lead their Dua. Aga Khan for record has not led any dua sessons.
Re: how u chose imam?
@MF
You wrote such a detailed response to the H N's post. Was it worth the effort?
Pearls before swine, or as they say in Urdu, "Gadhe ko zafraan ki kya Qadar?"
You wrote such a detailed response to the H N's post. Was it worth the effort?
Pearls before swine, or as they say in Urdu, "Gadhe ko zafraan ki kya Qadar?"
Re: how u chose imam?
MF should not have bothered because his post does not answer Haggun's question.
Haggun was asking how progs choose an Imam for leading prayers and who performs waiz
The answer is that Progs pray behind whoever has raza, be it amil, wali mulla or anyone else. In masjids under the control of Progs, as in Udaipur, they probably select the one amongst them whom they consider most suitable. Imam could be anyone amongst the congregation and everyone should, at some point, be offered a chance to lead prayers.
Waiz requires special skills and knowledge, which anyone can develop. But not if you are conducting it with Raza. In that case you just read, with minimal skill for oratory. However, except perhaps in prog-controlled jamaats, progs simply attend the ortho waiz.
Haggun was asking how progs choose an Imam for leading prayers and who performs waiz
The answer is that Progs pray behind whoever has raza, be it amil, wali mulla or anyone else. In masjids under the control of Progs, as in Udaipur, they probably select the one amongst them whom they consider most suitable. Imam could be anyone amongst the congregation and everyone should, at some point, be offered a chance to lead prayers.
Waiz requires special skills and knowledge, which anyone can develop. But not if you are conducting it with Raza. In that case you just read, with minimal skill for oratory. However, except perhaps in prog-controlled jamaats, progs simply attend the ortho waiz.
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Al Zulfiqar
- Posts: 4618
- Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am
Re: how u chose imam?
Smart wrote:@MF
You wrote such a detailed response to the H N's post. Was it worth the effort?
Pearls before swine, or as they say in Urdu, "Gadhe ko zafraan ki kya Qadar?"
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profastian
- Posts: 1314
- Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:00 am
Re: how u chose imam?
Oh progs. have u contradict yourselves. It is so funny." Whoever has raza". Haha. Raza from whom. Whose amils and wali mulla's. I mean that just shows up your movement. In a very bad wayporus wrote: The answer is that Progs pray behind whoever has raza, be it amil, wali mulla or anyone else.
Re: how u chose imam?
Oh boy proggies are funny,
they believe in raza but not from dai,
they believe in position of dai but not the holder of the position
they believe about imam hussein but no matam or buka for him
they belive in moulana ali sa but also beleve in those who usurped his position
they believe in moulatena fatema sa but support those who have desecrated her grave and of 4 imams
they believe in raza but not from dai,
they believe in position of dai but not the holder of the position
they believe about imam hussein but no matam or buka for him
they belive in moulana ali sa but also beleve in those who usurped his position
they believe in moulatena fatema sa but support those who have desecrated her grave and of 4 imams
Re: how u chose imam?
The progies call themselves muslims and believe in rasullah sa but call those who hurt him and his family the most hazrats
the progies hate evrything about us bohras but when they die they fight to be burried in bohra cemetery
the progies are agaisnt bohras giving money in any form to moula tus but do not realise that there is not a single bohra who has given money with good niyat and has become poor but all have become more wealthier and the progies hate this fact,
the progies claim to be reformists and this is the biggest fraud of all because the simple fact that all ahave adawat and hatred of moula tus and dawat and are big dushmans
the progies big supporters are wahabbis who are using this to spread hatred of panjatan
the progies hate evrything about us bohras but when they die they fight to be burried in bohra cemetery
the progies are agaisnt bohras giving money in any form to moula tus but do not realise that there is not a single bohra who has given money with good niyat and has become poor but all have become more wealthier and the progies hate this fact,
the progies claim to be reformists and this is the biggest fraud of all because the simple fact that all ahave adawat and hatred of moula tus and dawat and are big dushmans
the progies big supporters are wahabbis who are using this to spread hatred of panjatan
Re: how u chose imam?
The right to appoint 'pesh Imam' of any mosque is with true Dai-ul-mutlaq or his nominated appointee.haqqun nafs wrote:this question goes to prog's,i would like to know who and on what basis leads your prayers in mosque?and who leads your waez?
From barbaric Galiyakot episode, the black spot in pristine Bohra history till few years later in the mosques serviced by Bohra Youth (progressives) the namaz were held without Imam and all namazi offered namaz in the mosque on their own i.e. individual basis - like u pray at home.
Above state was opposed by Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj as he advocated that the prayers should be lead by Imam. But, the then president of Udaipur Jamat who is now turned as traitor Janab Ghulam Hussain didn’t agreed. Later, in the course of Legal Court cases it was needed that the namaz has to be lead by an Imam. And since then in all the mosques of Udaipur the Imamat namaz was started.
As the first line says that the right to appoint the pesh-Imam is the prerogative of true Dai-al-Mutlaq or his nominated appointee. Then why Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj advocated for pesh-Imam? Because he consider Janab Burhanuddin as Dai-al-Nazim and NOT Dai-al-Mutlaq and as Imam-uz-zaman is in veil and the chain of true Dai-ul-mutlaq has ceased like the chain of Prophet thus the order of Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s.) is applied: During draught one cannot find enough water likewise there are time when there is draught of true scholars, (taweel of water is knowledge). In such times refer to what you have in your hand. Namaz is compulsory but If you are unable to find water then do ‘tay-ya-mum’ in lieu of abulation.
Thus, Dawoodi Bohra Youth follow the order of Imam Jafar Sadik (a.s.) and one community member among them whom that community mosque people recognizes and respects and moreover he QUALIFIES the requirement of pesh-Imam per Daim-ul-Islam (example: he should have untrimmed full beard kept throughout year and not just in month of Ramdan, etc – then that gentleman lead the prayers.
Last edited by Mubarak on Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: how u chose imam?
So it takes pristine bohras 14 centuries to learn what the prophet taught? The sunnis are way smarter than you guys. They have known about who is qualified to lead prayers for 14 centuries now. And that too from the teachings of the prophet Mohammed (saw) himself. The pristine aren't too sharp.
Re: how u chose imam?
Mubarakbhai ":example: he should have untrimmed full beard kept throughout year and not just in month of Ramdan, etc – then that gentleman lead the prayers."
Why is there so much importance on beard in not only Bohra community but also in all Islam and almost all religions?
And that also "untrimmed"!!!!
Why is there so much importance on beard in not only Bohra community but also in all Islam and almost all religions?
And that also "untrimmed"!!!!
Re: how u chose imam?
Mubarak,
Earlier you said
Earlier you said
So who is Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj? A gin or an angel? And who is Imam Jafar Sadik (as)? A jinn or an angel?Sunni Imams are people appointed = subject to errors
Who appoints this community member? Allah descends from the heavens to appoint him? Does Allah come and measure his beard too?and one community member among them
Re: how u chose imam?
My post is in the reference to the community mosque leader and NOT in the reference of community leader.
Our community leader is Imam appointed by Allah, and in his absence the community is lead by Dai-al-Mutlaq and there are times Dai-al-Mutlaq office is ceased like the the office of Prophet. During such SPECIAL times and not in regular course, which in Bohras reference is since the martyr of 46th Dai Molana Mohammad Badruddin (r.a.) - the order of Imam Jafar Sadik is applied.
No individual has no right to offer his/her whims and fancies per their convenience any religious fatwas - like Engineer Asger Ali does: "it is my personal opinions this is the meaning of Quran...I think no 4months 10night waiting period in Iddat is required...I think... I think". Bohras believe in ONE man (i.e. Imam) rule and are against any other form of governance including especially democracy.
Bohra Youth are working on pesh-Imam with current form because they are in special situation and their action is order abiding of Imam Sadik (a.s.) Where as for Sunni there are no special or non-special situations. Whether it is community mosque Imam or Community Imam they per their whims and fancies appoint any one as their Imam, I read in some news magazines some time back: in some quarter of Sunni there is strong consensus to appoint Bin Laden as their next caliph!
Sunni people choose their Imam and Allah choose our Community Imam. Sunni people may make mistake but Allah never makes mistakes.
Your trio caliphs have fooled the then people like Burhanuddin saheb is currently fooling the common man of Bohras.
Moreover, Abu Baker hijacked the situation and declared himself as the next leader of community on premise that people like/vote him to lead after Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) martyr, but when Abubaker died he didn't left his successor choice with public and APOINTED Umar as his successor = contrary to the democratic principle that he used to steal the leadership post for himself in the first place.
Our community leader is Imam appointed by Allah, and in his absence the community is lead by Dai-al-Mutlaq and there are times Dai-al-Mutlaq office is ceased like the the office of Prophet. During such SPECIAL times and not in regular course, which in Bohras reference is since the martyr of 46th Dai Molana Mohammad Badruddin (r.a.) - the order of Imam Jafar Sadik is applied.
No individual has no right to offer his/her whims and fancies per their convenience any religious fatwas - like Engineer Asger Ali does: "it is my personal opinions this is the meaning of Quran...I think no 4months 10night waiting period in Iddat is required...I think... I think". Bohras believe in ONE man (i.e. Imam) rule and are against any other form of governance including especially democracy.
Bohra Youth are working on pesh-Imam with current form because they are in special situation and their action is order abiding of Imam Sadik (a.s.) Where as for Sunni there are no special or non-special situations. Whether it is community mosque Imam or Community Imam they per their whims and fancies appoint any one as their Imam, I read in some news magazines some time back: in some quarter of Sunni there is strong consensus to appoint Bin Laden as their next caliph!
Sunni people choose their Imam and Allah choose our Community Imam. Sunni people may make mistake but Allah never makes mistakes.
Your trio caliphs have fooled the then people like Burhanuddin saheb is currently fooling the common man of Bohras.
Moreover, Abu Baker hijacked the situation and declared himself as the next leader of community on premise that people like/vote him to lead after Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) martyr, but when Abubaker died he didn't left his successor choice with public and APOINTED Umar as his successor = contrary to the democratic principle that he used to steal the leadership post for himself in the first place.
Re: how u chose imam?
Mubarak,
After reading that jargon, I realize how full of crap you are. You have nothing to add that actually makes any sense. You create stuff as you go along. You do not even know the difference between the Sunni Imam and the Shia Imam that you keep referring to. There is no concept of hidden Imamat in Islam. Allah is not appointing any hidden Imam. Hidden Imams are appointed by people like you to hide behind them. There is no evidence of hidden Imamat in the quran. You told me before that you will respond to the questions that I raised in another thread when you get time. You now have time to post more junk but no time to respond to my questions?
Why do you need hidden Imams to follow? Don't you have halal animals anymore?
And I asked who appointed your community Imam and you responded that Allah appointed your community Imam. When people live in a dream world there is nothing anyone can really do to wake them up. Why can't Allah just order the hidden Imam to come out of hiding instead of appointing a fill-in Imam?
After reading that jargon, I realize how full of crap you are. You have nothing to add that actually makes any sense. You create stuff as you go along. You do not even know the difference between the Sunni Imam and the Shia Imam that you keep referring to. There is no concept of hidden Imamat in Islam. Allah is not appointing any hidden Imam. Hidden Imams are appointed by people like you to hide behind them. There is no evidence of hidden Imamat in the quran. You told me before that you will respond to the questions that I raised in another thread when you get time. You now have time to post more junk but no time to respond to my questions?
Why do you need hidden Imams to follow? Don't you have halal animals anymore?
What special situation? That your Imam is in hiding, the Dai that you appointed was not the correct Dai and the Dai that should've been appointed never got appointed?Bohra Youth are working on pesh-Imam with current form because they are in special situation and their action is order abiding of Imam Sadik (a.s.)
And I asked who appointed your community Imam and you responded that Allah appointed your community Imam. When people live in a dream world there is nothing anyone can really do to wake them up. Why can't Allah just order the hidden Imam to come out of hiding instead of appointing a fill-in Imam?
Re: how u chose imam?
Thanks Canadian for posting a good question.
I will share whatever little bit I know now and later in retrospection if any further thought in this reference popped I will try to post the same, Inshallah.
Neither a boy nor a girl is born with beard. But when their intellect grows to recognizable state then the beard branches out thus, it is a symbol of attainment of maturity thus also time for misaq to Imam (and not to Dai).
A leader by his deeds should inspire his followers and not because of hierarchy superimpositions. An able leader should imitate Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) who had full untrimmed beard. Thus Daim-ul-Islam instructs that the pesh-Imam (who should be mature + basic intellect) must also have full beard like Prophet Mohammed (s.a.).
I will share whatever little bit I know now and later in retrospection if any further thought in this reference popped I will try to post the same, Inshallah.
Neither a boy nor a girl is born with beard. But when their intellect grows to recognizable state then the beard branches out thus, it is a symbol of attainment of maturity thus also time for misaq to Imam (and not to Dai).
A leader by his deeds should inspire his followers and not because of hierarchy superimpositions. An able leader should imitate Prophet Mohammed (s.a.) who had full untrimmed beard. Thus Daim-ul-Islam instructs that the pesh-Imam (who should be mature + basic intellect) must also have full beard like Prophet Mohammed (s.a.).
Re: how u chose imam?
You said earlier that your community Imam is appointed by Allah. Is Allah going to read Daim-ul-Islam before appointing an Imam?Thus Daim-ul-Islam instructs that the pesh-Imam (who should be mature + basic intellect) must also have full beard like Prophet Mohammed (s.a.).
Re: how u chose imam?
Anajmi,anajmi wrote:You said earlier that your community Imam is appointed by Allah. Is Allah going to read Daim-ul-Islam before appointing an Imam?Thus Daim-ul-Islam instructs that the pesh-Imam (who should be mature + basic intellect) must also have full beard like Prophet Mohammed (s.a.).
A fool (i.e. you) can ask more questions than a scholar can answer.
Your question is analogous to: Can Allah drink alcohol?
Re: how u chose imam?
Mubarak,
I did not understand that analogy. So let me ask you again. You said Allah appoints your community Imam. And you also said that directions to appoint this Imam are given in Daim-ul-Islam. Does Allah read Daim-ul-Islam before appointing your community Imam? If Allah appoints your community Imam, then who are the instructions for?
I did not understand that analogy. So let me ask you again. You said Allah appoints your community Imam. And you also said that directions to appoint this Imam are given in Daim-ul-Islam. Does Allah read Daim-ul-Islam before appointing your community Imam? If Allah appoints your community Imam, then who are the instructions for?
Re: how u chose imam?
Anajmi: You said Allah appoints your community Imam.
Mubarak: Yes, since the first till last person on Earth, the Mustakar Imam will be appointed by Allah example) Prophet Aadam kulli, Prophet Ibrahim, Molana Ali, Imam Bakir, Imam Mustansir, etc.
Anajmi: And you also said that directions to appoint this Imam are given in Daim-ul-Islam.
Mubarak: This = pesh-Imam (or prayer leader) in a mosque. There are TWO types of Imam: one is community Imam like Prophet Ibrahim (a.s.), Molana Hussain (a.s.), Imam Sadik (a.s.) etc and second type of Imam is local mosque Imam. Community Imam can be only one but pesh-Imam (local mosque prayer leader) are more or equal to all numbers of mosque.
Imam Sadik ibn Imam Bakir ibn Imam Ali ibn Imam Hussain ibn Mola Ali a.s. (the only and sole appointed successor of Prophet Mohammed) has said that when Imam is in veil and there are no other source of appointed guidance i.e. no Dai-al-Mutlaq office then in such draught (it is special situation) follow what authentic in your hand is. To Bohras book named Daim-ul-Islam (Pillars of Islam) is an authentic book thus in our current affairs we refer it.
When I am referring to qualifications of (pesh) Imam per Daim-ul-Islam I am referring to local mosque prayer leader and NOT the community leader (like Prophet Ibrahim / Aadam, Imam Hussain, etc).
Anajmi: Does Allah read Daim-ul-Islam before appointing your community Imam?
Mubarak: Address your this question to Allah.
Anajmi: If Allah appoints your community Imam, then who are the instructions for?
Mubarak: Those instructions are for LOCAL MOSQUE prayer leader APPLICABLE only in draught (scholar wise) type special situation.
Mubarak: Yes, since the first till last person on Earth, the Mustakar Imam will be appointed by Allah example) Prophet Aadam kulli, Prophet Ibrahim, Molana Ali, Imam Bakir, Imam Mustansir, etc.
Anajmi: And you also said that directions to appoint this Imam are given in Daim-ul-Islam.
Mubarak: This = pesh-Imam (or prayer leader) in a mosque. There are TWO types of Imam: one is community Imam like Prophet Ibrahim (a.s.), Molana Hussain (a.s.), Imam Sadik (a.s.) etc and second type of Imam is local mosque Imam. Community Imam can be only one but pesh-Imam (local mosque prayer leader) are more or equal to all numbers of mosque.
Imam Sadik ibn Imam Bakir ibn Imam Ali ibn Imam Hussain ibn Mola Ali a.s. (the only and sole appointed successor of Prophet Mohammed) has said that when Imam is in veil and there are no other source of appointed guidance i.e. no Dai-al-Mutlaq office then in such draught (it is special situation) follow what authentic in your hand is. To Bohras book named Daim-ul-Islam (Pillars of Islam) is an authentic book thus in our current affairs we refer it.
When I am referring to qualifications of (pesh) Imam per Daim-ul-Islam I am referring to local mosque prayer leader and NOT the community leader (like Prophet Ibrahim / Aadam, Imam Hussain, etc).
Anajmi: Does Allah read Daim-ul-Islam before appointing your community Imam?
Mubarak: Address your this question to Allah.
Anajmi: If Allah appoints your community Imam, then who are the instructions for?
Mubarak: Those instructions are for LOCAL MOSQUE prayer leader APPLICABLE only in draught (scholar wise) type special situation.
Re: how u chose imam?
Excellent. This is getting more interesting. Now we have two types of Imams in the shia community. Let me make it easire for you. One type of your Imam is the same as the Imam referred to by the Sunnis. This Imam is the Imam of the local mosque. So the next time you blame Sunnis for not having an Imam, you should clarify that the Sunnis do not have a hidden Imam only (which incidentally neither do the Shias as he has gone into hiding). They can have the other kind of Imam which they do.TWO types of Imam
The Allah appointed Shia Imam has gone into hiding and is of no use to anybody.
Re: how u chose imam?
Mubarak is correct. Every Bohra knows that Imam who leads prayer is not THE IMAM who is the leader of the community of Muslims. That is the Bohra received wisdom. A bohra always adds the words 'mu'atammam bi al-imam as part of his niyyat when praying fard behind a prayer leader, or Imam as he is called. That phrase refers to the prayer leader.
anajmi, please remain within in the discussion circumscribed by Bohra beliefs. There is no need to bring Sunni beliefs, and their supposed superiority, in every discussion. We are all aware of the differences. To each his religion. Vive la difference!
anajmi, please remain within in the discussion circumscribed by Bohra beliefs. There is no need to bring Sunni beliefs, and their supposed superiority, in every discussion. We are all aware of the differences. To each his religion. Vive la difference!
Re: how u chose imam?
You mean THE IMAM who is hiding? I will bring Sunni beliefs whenever I need to and most of the times when I have to respond to Mubarak I have to bring Sunni beliefs because he cannot post without referencing Sunni beliefs.
I agree, the hiding Bohra Imam is different from the Local Imam who leads prayers. This is a difference that the Bohras should understand when they say that they have an Imam and the Sunnis don't. They don't have an Imam either. He has been hiding for a few centuries.
I agree, the hiding Bohra Imam is different from the Local Imam who leads prayers. This is a difference that the Bohras should understand when they say that they have an Imam and the Sunnis don't. They don't have an Imam either. He has been hiding for a few centuries.
Re: how u chose imam?
anajmi, Bohras believe that Imam is in hiding. Nothing more can be added to that.
Aditions, like Imam is i touch with the Dai, is not accurate. He is in hiding, even from the Dai.
If you insist that their belief is unjustified, take it up in Islam Today. Do not do what Mubarak does. Do not refer to Bohra beliefs. Just state Sunni beliefs.
Aditions, like Imam is i touch with the Dai, is not accurate. He is in hiding, even from the Dai.
If you insist that their belief is unjustified, take it up in Islam Today. Do not do what Mubarak does. Do not refer to Bohra beliefs. Just state Sunni beliefs.
Re: how u chose imam?
porus,
You are not getting the point of the discussion. The point is simple. Mubarak says bohras have an Imam appointed by God and Sunnis have an Imam appointed by humans. Are you understanding the problem that I am trying to solve over here? The sunni Imam appointed by the people is to lead prayers and handle simple community affairs. They are not appointing this mystical super human Imam who they claim is THE IMAM!! They are appointing the best person amongst themselves just like the bohras can as per Daim-ul-Islam as per Mubarak.
And yes their belief is unjustified and I am not interested in taking it up anywhere. But will raise it as and when it needs to be raised.
You are not getting the point of the discussion. The point is simple. Mubarak says bohras have an Imam appointed by God and Sunnis have an Imam appointed by humans. Are you understanding the problem that I am trying to solve over here? The sunni Imam appointed by the people is to lead prayers and handle simple community affairs. They are not appointing this mystical super human Imam who they claim is THE IMAM!! They are appointing the best person amongst themselves just like the bohras can as per Daim-ul-Islam as per Mubarak.
And yes their belief is unjustified and I am not interested in taking it up anywhere. But will raise it as and when it needs to be raised.
Re: how u chose imam?
Anajmi / Muslim First / Ghulam Muhammad,
Sunni have two types of Imam: one is for local mosque (prayer leader) and second is the community Imam like Abu Baker, Umar, Maviya, YAZEED, Abbasi Caliphs, (some Sunni quarters planning Bin Laden as their next caliph same like Abu Baker), etc
Bone of contention is the latter class of Imam.
Per Allah (2:124), he APPOINTS the community Imam (Allah appointing Prophet Ibrahim (a.s.) as community Imam and like wise to his progeny except evil-doers) = community people do not ELECT their community Imam.
Criterion of community Imam (not local mosque Imam) = appointment by Allah and not election by community.
Bohras criterion is in line with Almighty Allah command i.e. appointment of Imam by Allah. Whereas Sunni go against Allah command and they ELECT their community leader like Abu Baker, Usman, etc. Hence, Sunni criterion is against Allah command thus it is null and void.
Sunni have two types of Imam: one is for local mosque (prayer leader) and second is the community Imam like Abu Baker, Umar, Maviya, YAZEED, Abbasi Caliphs, (some Sunni quarters planning Bin Laden as their next caliph same like Abu Baker), etc
Bone of contention is the latter class of Imam.
Per Allah (2:124), he APPOINTS the community Imam (Allah appointing Prophet Ibrahim (a.s.) as community Imam and like wise to his progeny except evil-doers) = community people do not ELECT their community Imam.
Criterion of community Imam (not local mosque Imam) = appointment by Allah and not election by community.
Bohras criterion is in line with Almighty Allah command i.e. appointment of Imam by Allah. Whereas Sunni go against Allah command and they ELECT their community leader like Abu Baker, Usman, etc. Hence, Sunni criterion is against Allah command thus it is null and void.
Re: how u chose imam?
I agree with Mubarak.Mubarak wrote: Per Allah (2:124), he APPOINTS the community Imam (Allah appointing Prophet Ibrahim (a.s.) as community Imam and like wise to his progeny except evil-doers) = community people do not ELECT their community Imam.
Criterion of community Imam (not local mosque Imam) = appointment by Allah and not election by community.
Bohras criterion is in line with Almighty Allah command i.e. appointment of Imam by Allah. Whereas Sunni go against Allah command and they ELECT their community leader like Abu Baker, Usman, etc. Hence, Sunni criterion is against Allah command thus it is null and void.
anajmi, this should end this discussion. Allah does not explicitly deny the possibility of Imam being in hiding.
Re: how u chose imam?
yeah you wish!!anajmi, this should end this discussion.
Neither does he "explicitly" deny the possibility of him running around naked in the forest where no one can see him.Allah does not explicitly deny the possibility of Imam being in hiding.
Since when has a Sunni's will become more powerful than the will of Allah? Even Hazrat Ali was elected by the Sunnis. So what?? Did the Sunni's go against Allah's will that time too? or did the Sunnis win 3 times out of 4 with Allah??Whereas Sunni go against Allah command and they ELECT their community leader like Abu Baker, Usman, etc. Hence, Sunni criterion is against Allah command thus it is null and void.
No wonder the Shia Imam had to go into hiding!!
Re: how u chose imam?
Oh and besides, can you please give me an explicit command from Allah where he has appointed your Imams starting from Hazrat Ali and also the explicit command that has asked him to go into hiding?
Scratch this question. The entire bohra belief is based upon the misinterpretation of the ayah quoted by Mubarak. There is nothing I can do about that.
Scratch this question. The entire bohra belief is based upon the misinterpretation of the ayah quoted by Mubarak. There is nothing I can do about that.
Re: how u chose imam?
Wrong. He was 'elected' -(or was it 'selected'?) a Khalifa, not an Imam. For the Shia, they are distinct.anajmi wrote: Even Hazrat Ali was elected by the Sunnis.