Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#31

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:44 am

the attempts of aqs to legitimise the practice of taqiyya in today's modern world and the system of sabak to impart hidden knowledge is not only pathetic and laughable but highly sinister.

let us first analyse various time-tested methods of providing education. the most popular one universally is the graduated system of schooling, whether primary, secondary or post secondary, where you start with age or ability appropriate education and move higher based on competency and understanding. next you have the ancient indian system of guru-shishya parampara, where there is intense interaction and close bonding between the guru and a few chosen pupils only. this is an ideal, as values of discipline, obedience, humility and total surrender in exchange for knowledge are built in, but is not viable for mass education. various other methods of education like home tutoring or correspondence schools etc have only limited success as they fail where collective resources are required for practical hands on experience in a real-life setting.

islam was spread in its very earliest days through direct interactions with the prophet who was the repository of the divine revelations, from his words, advice, actions and behaviour. that constitutes the hadees. those closest to him then carried on the work in all sincerity. the quran remains as the fount of knowledge but needed to be interpreted for the unlettered and ignorant. over the years every conceivable angle, opinion or theory about it has been debated and published. these do not detract from the quran in any way, in fact they add to our understanding of it and is healthy for our intellect. we have hundreds and thousands of books spread in libraries all over the globe. since the advent of the internet, there are trillions of gb's of information available in cyberspace. we take according to our needs. but consider this, in every system of education or knowledge dissemination, there is never the rule, that either you agree or get out. Yes, there are certain immutable facts/principles eg. In science, physics, chemistry, maths, and so on, but even there it is accepted that they are true only until strong evidence is not found to the contrary. The teachers do not say, do you agree or get out. Questions are welcomed and debates are encouraged. History is replete with examples where students have disproved their teachers and have gone on to establish new theories and undertaken new research to explain hitherto unknown mysteries.

Also in no system of any education are you asked to take an oath that whatever you will be taught and revealed to you is to be kept secret from others. In sabaks that is exactly what they do. They start with the basic premise of belief in allah, his creation, shaitan, then the prophets he sent, then down to mohammad, ali, and build upon it until you come to the imams and dai’s. whereas the basic premise is fundamentally sound and logical, the subsequent story starts slowly and very insidiously going askew, very cleverly, a few degrees at a time, building in attributes, half truths, lies and deceptions cleverly designed to lead you the way they want your mind to go. At every stage they will ask you, do you believe? do you agree?, they emphasise the secrecy and the sense of belonging to an exclusive club, of being the chosen few, of being the great and fortunate who will be closest to allah and who will receive this esoteric ilm. (sounds familiar from aqs’ refrain?) you are encouraged to ask questions if you need clarifications or obtain a better understanding, but you cannot stray so far as to question the (false) beliefs and attributes they cleverly and insidiously built in and to which you said automatically before, yes I agree, viz. the divine attributes of the dai, or the secret knowledge that he has, etc, etc. all of which is highly arbitrary and questionable.

They definitely do not encourage any questions or doubts on their fundamentals, and constantly judge you on the strength of your faith in their skewed philosophy. If you persist they will eject you as being mentally not prepared to receive this great wisdom, of being an unfortunate one. You are constantly reminded of your solemn oath and exclusivity as chosen ones, this is drummed into your brain incessantly. After every stage they hold elaborate ceremonies of awarding certificates and rewarding with special jamans and favours. The participants now start feeling a sense of entitlement and superiority over others. They view themselves as the ‘chosen’ and develop a feeling of detachment from their world and their society.

This style and approach is very similar to many secret societies like the freemasons and others, where a deliberate attempt is made to build in exclusivity and extreme secrecy. Once you are in, there is no getting out, as the outcome would be disastrous for your social and business standing and maybe even your life and limb. If this is the way bohras are encouraged to get knowledge, by enrolling in sabaks, then believe me, they will be so far down the road of denial and entitlement that nothing will ever bring them back to reality. Because of the sinister strategy that they employ in sabaks and the highly skewed and illogical stories they feed you, rather programme you with, no wonder they do not want it revealed and opened to public scrutiny. They have a guilty conscience and they know their own lies, that’s why they are running scared and hiding behind arguments of taqqiya.

Some time ago, I had returned from a long hibernation because I was alarmed to meet a young bohra, ostensibly a modern, well-educated and well-adjusted young fellow in western culture and society. His thoughts were so subversive and so deeply entrenched that they shocked me to my core. In his eyes that day, I saw a look, perhaps the same look which young misguided suicide bombers might have, convinced that they are sacrificing their lives for some higher being and reward, going out to do mayhem and wreak destruction and death upon others.

I see and sense that same approach in the postings of aqs. Someone totally convinced and brainwashed that he is the great, the chosen, the most superior and most entitled, convinced that all around him are ignorant fools who know not what he secretly knows, how learned aalim are his masters and the divinity of the one who controls them all. May Allah help such misguided people!!

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#32

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:56 am

omabharti wrote:
Aqs
Because of a bad teacher you lost on Ahle Bait's Ilm, in the end loss is yours, try some other Aalim, Inshallah the case will be different
Aqs
Asalam U Alekum ( or kem cho)
It is easy for you to say go to another Aalim. I do not know what country you live in(sic) but in USA there are very limited number of Aaamils. and one does not have choice of Aamil or Aalim, whoever came to that particular Jamaat to give Sabak, you are stuck with that person and that is one and only, the other Jamaat Aamil will not even perform your burial or Nikkah unless you have Safai Chitti from you Mohalla Aamil. You see every thing is controlled, so if you have problem with you Mohalla Aamil, brother you are done, you are castigated period.
BTW I have seen lately that very few new Aamils are coming to USA, rumors are that visas are being denied, used to be that after 3 years they used to rotate the Aamils but in some Jamaats in USA the Aamil has become a permanent structure.
That is one of the reason that last time Syedna came to USA he only visited 3 or 4 cities in Northeast, he did not even visit the headquarters of Dawoodi Bohras in Houston-Dallas and LA. He and some of his close relatives do have visa to USA but most of his entourage is being denied visa. The big fiasco of Houston Ashura which brought 14,000 people only had about 3000 for North America (USA and Canada) and rest came from Asia and became illegal residents ( I know 4 families in my local jamaat who came for Houston Ashura not for Deedar but for staying in American permanently)
Walekum as salaam Br. Oma I am fine Alhamdolillah and hope the same for you and your family
It is easy for you to say go to another Aalim. I do not know what country you live in(sic) but in USA there are very limited number of Aaamils. and one does not have choice of Aamil or Aalim, whoever came to that particular Jamaat to give Sabak, you are stuck with that person and that is one and only, the other Jamaat Aamil will not even perform your burial or Nikkah unless you have Safai Chitti from you Mohalla Aamil. You see every thing is controlled, so if you have problem with you Mohalla Aamil, brother you are done, you are castigated period.
I dont have any justification for the high handed approach of your Mohalla Aamil. May Allah give him Taufeeq and he does his Job in a proper way. I was very lucky that for my studies i was in Mumbai and over there you get a lot of variety of Aalims as in all the 14 Masjid's sabaks are taken and a lot of aalims from Kothar including Mukasir Saheb and Shehzada sahebs also conduct sabaks.

Try to give your Mohalla aamil another chance
BTW I have seen lately that very few new Aamils are coming to USA, rumors are that visas are being denied, used to be that after 3 years they used to rotate the Aamils but in some Jamaats in USA the Aamil has become a permanent structure.
That is one of the reason that last time Syedna came to USA he only visited 3 or 4 cities in Northeast, he did not even visit the headquarters of Dawoodi Bohras in Houston-Dallas and LA. He and some of his close relatives do have visa to USA but most of his entourage is being denied visa. The big fiasco of Houston Ashura which brought 14,000 people only had about 3000 for North America (USA and Canada) and rest came from Asia and became illegal residents ( I know 4 families in my local jamaat who came for Houston Ashura not for Deedar but for staying in American permanently)
Its a very shameful act that people stayed out their without proper visa, between US has very stringent laws for illegal immigrants then how are they not caught.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#33

Unread post by SBM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:27 pm

US has very stringent laws for illegal immigrants then how are they not caught.
US has about 3.5 to 4 million illegal immigrants. If they get reported they will be caught, I am not ready to do that as I know it is Muslims who are target and I WILL NEVER DO anything to hurt any Muslim regardless of their belief.
Unfortunate part is that they can never leave USA even to visit their ailing parents because if they do, they are not coming back. They always live under the fear of being caught one day and being deported.
As a matter of fact once, Houston and Dallas Jamaat did issue an appeal to hire/sponsor those Mumineens who had overstayed their visa after Houston Ashra.(it is the responsibility of Kothar to make sure those people who came on Ashra Visa should have returned but they did not do their job and rather forfeited the deposits they place with US Consulate in Mumbai)
As far as your suggestion for me to go that Aamil, it is like asking me to go and hit my head against the wall, I would have done it if I knew I can break the wall but I am not dumb enough to hurt my head.
As far as your information what is reason that USA is not getting rotational Aamils anymore and reason Syedna did not visit other cities in his last tour specially Houston-Dallas which is famous for its Ziyafats and Najwas(no pun intended just the facts)

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#34

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:35 pm

@Al Zulfiqaar
the attempts of aqs to legitimise the practice of taqiyya in today's modern world and the system of sabak to impart hidden knowledge is not only pathetic and laughable but highly sinister.
Its not me who is legitamising practice of Taqiya, but this is the practice of Imams till Dai's, Moula Ali (as) offering salaat with three Khalifa can be a example in the long list of tradition of taqiya, Now pathetic and laughable i can understand, as till now from your long posts i have also got the same impression about you, so the feelings are mutual, but Highly sinister?? Please enlighten
let us first analyse various time-tested methods of providing education. the most popular one universally is the graduated system of schooling, whether primary, secondary or post secondary, where you start with age or ability appropriate education and move higher based on competency and understanding. next you have the ancient indian system of guru-shishya parampara, where there is intense interaction and close bonding between the guru and a few chosen pupils only. this is an ideal, as values of discipline, obedience, humility and total surrender in exchange for knowledge are built in, but is not viable for mass education. various other methods of education like home tutoring or correspondence schools etc have only limited success as they fail where collective resources are required for practical hands on experience in a real-life setting.
All the above methods are used in the most effective way by dawat, you mentioned graduate system of schooling then we have Jamea in Surat and Karachi for the same. and the ancient Indian system of Guru shihsya parampara is followed in most pristine form in Sabaks conducted all over the world by scolars and aalims of dawat, even correspondence system is used for learning of Quran, where a student from Jamea is dedicated for you and you can recite whatever you have learned every day by login in to a chatting room.
islam was spread in its very earliest days through direct interactions with the prophet who was the repository of the divine revelations, from his words, advice, actions and behaviour. that constitutes the hadees. those closest to him then carried on the work in all sincerity. the quran remains as the fount of knowledge but needed to be interpreted for the unlettered and ignorant.
again after Prophet (saw) it was Moula Ali (as) and his progeny who were the chosen one to interpret and disperse as per their wish.
over the years every conceivable angle, opinion or theory about it has been debated and published. these do not detract from the quran in any way, in fact they add to our understanding of it and is healthy for our intellect. we have hundreds and thousands of books spread in libraries all over the globe. since the advent of the internet, there are trillions of gb's of information available in cyberspace. we take according to our needs. but consider this, in every system of education or knowledge dissemination, there is never the rule, that either you agree or get out. Yes, there are certain immutable facts/principles eg. In science, physics, chemistry, maths, and so on, but even there it is accepted that they are true only until strong evidence is not found to the contrary. The teachers do not say, do you agree or get out. Questions are welcomed and debates are encouraged. History is replete with examples where students have disproved their teachers and have gone on to establish new theories and undertaken new research to explain hitherto unknown mysteries.
For all the worldly sciences this holds true, but when it comes to Islam then i have already mentioned that their is nothing remaining to update as its the Qaamil deen so no question arises of discussing things and a student disprove a teacher establish something which is not already present.
Also in no system of any education are you asked to take an oath that whatever you will be taught and revealed to you is to be kept secret from others. In sabaks that is exactly what they do. They start with the basic premise of belief in allah, his creation, shaitan, then the prophets he sent, then down to mohammad, ali, and build upon it until you come to the imams and dai’s. whereas the basic premise is fundamentally sound and logical, the subsequent story starts slowly and very insidiously going askew, very cleverly, a few degrees at a time, building in attributes, half truths, lies and deceptions cleverly designed to lead you the way they want your mind to go. At every stage they will ask you, do you believe? do you agree?, they emphasise the secrecy and the sense of belonging to an exclusive club, of being the chosen few, of being the great and fortunate who will be closest to allah and who will receive this esoteric ilm. (sounds familiar from aqs’ refrain?) you are encouraged to ask questions if you need clarifications or obtain a better understanding, but you cannot stray so far as to question the (false) beliefs and attributes they cleverly and insidiously built in and to which you said automatically before, yes I agree, viz. the divine attributes of the dai, or the secret knowledge that he has, etc, etc. all of which is highly arbitrary and questionable.
we are not talking about any world sciences out here that you can discuss and debate, but its ahle Bait's ilm. You have already made up your mind about what is thought in sabaks, let others decide for themselves. Dont pronounce decision on their behalf
They definitely do not encourage any questions or doubts on their fundamentals, and constantly judge you on the strength of your faith in their skewed philosophy. If you persist they will eject you as being mentally not prepared to receive this great wisdom, of being an unfortunate one. You are constantly reminded of your solemn oath and exclusivity as chosen ones, this is drummed into your brain incessantly. After every stage they hold elaborate ceremonies of awarding certificates and rewarding with special jamans and favours. The participants now start feeling a sense of entitlement and superiority over others. They view themselves as the ‘chosen’ and develop a feeling of detachment from their world and their society.
I dont know which part of world you live in where certificates are given and feasts are held for people attending sabaks but the places i have lived in and where i have attended sabaks it was never the case. Yes Ahle Bait's ilm is conferred on the chosen one's but that does not give you some false euphoria but makes you humble with the shukr of Allah that what great nemat Allah has bestowed on one
This style and approach is very similar to many secret societies like the freemasons and others, where a deliberate attempt is made to build in exclusivity and extreme secrecy. Once you are in, there is no getting out, as the outcome would be disastrous for your social and business standing and maybe even your life and limb. If this is the way bohras are encouraged to get knowledge, by enrolling in sabaks, then believe me, they will be so far down the road of denial and entitlement that nothing will ever bring them back to reality. Because of the sinister strategy that they employ in sabaks and the highly skewed and illogical stories they feed you, rather programme you with, no wonder they do not want it revealed and opened to public scrutiny. They have a guilty conscience and they know their own lies, that’s why they are running scared and hiding behind arguments of taqqiya.
Your fear is quite visible, that if people start attending sabaks they will clearly see through your lies, get a life and let people decide on their own, dont feed them with your false rhetoric and skewed agenda of personal hatred.
Some time ago, I had returned from a long hibernation because I was alarmed to meet a young bohra, ostensibly a modern, well-educated and well-adjusted young fellow in western culture and society. His thoughts were so subversive and so deeply entrenched that they shocked me to my core. In his eyes that day, I saw a look, perhaps the same look which young misguided suicide bombers might have, convinced that they are sacrificing their lives for some higher being and reward, going out to do mayhem and wreak destruction and death upon others.
oh if he did not subscribe to your form of Islam then you see suicide bomber's attitude in his eyes, great going keep it up, as you will see the same thing in nearly 1.2 million dawoodi bohras
I see and sense that same approach in the postings of aqs. Someone totally convinced and brainwashed that he is the great, the chosen, the most superior and most entitled, convinced that all around him are ignorant fools who know not what he secretly knows, how learned aalim are his masters and the divinity of the one who controls them all. May Allah help such misguided people!!
till now i have not said that any one out here is a fool,but your long postings to prove something which i am not will definitely change my perception for you

May Allah give taufeeq to all of us and show us the right path

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#35

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:08 pm

@Oma
US has about 3.5 to 4 million illegal immigrants. If they get reported they will be caught, I am not ready to do that as I know it is Muslims who are target and I WILL NEVER DO anything to hurt any Muslim regardless of their belief.
Unfortunate part is that they can never leave USA even to visit their ailing parents because if they do, they are not coming back. They always live under the fear of being caught one day and being deported. As a matter of fact once, Houston and Dallas Jamaat did issue an appeal to hire/sponsor those Mumineens who had overstayed their visa after Houston Ashra.(it is the responsibility of Kothar to make sure those people who came on Ashra Visa should have returned but they did not do their job and rather forfeited the deposits they place with US Consulate in Mumbai)
Br. The part of the world where i live in, over here after ashara almost 800 people stayed back, its illegal to look for jobs on visit or tourist visa's which were given to them for the purpose of ashara, but they had come for this purpose only. Their was a farmaan from vazarat to all the aamils to report people who did not returned after ashara, and efforts were made to bring them back as it brought very bad name in the ministry over here Due to this act only now their is very strict check on people who go to foreign countries for any miqaat and its made sure that they return after the stipulated time of their visa.


As far as your suggestion for me to go that Aamil, it is like asking me to go and hit my head against the wall, I would have done it if I knew I can break the wall but I am not dumb enough to hurt my head.
offer Nazrul maqam and pray that Allah gives you the nemat of Ahle Bait's ilm.
As far as your information what is reason that USA is not getting rotational Aamils anymore and reason Syedna did not visit other cities in his last tour specially Houston-Dallas which is famous for its Ziyafats and Najwas(no pun intended just the facts)
Might be procuring new visa is tough due to over zealous attitude of US towards every thing associated with Islam after the 9/11, so its easy to keep people out their who already have visa. And I seriously dont have any idea why Syedna(tus) didnt visit the cities mentioned by you.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#36

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:18 pm

Moula Ali (as) offering salaat with three Khalifa can be a example in the long list of tradition of taqiya
Actually, when the prophet declared Hazrat Ali as his successor, he was practicing taqiya. Similarly, when the Dai says that he is following the Imam, he is practicing taqiya.

The long list of tradition of taqiya is a long list of crap that has been fed to people like you. (By the way, on this forum, I am practicing taqiya, nudge nudge, wink wink).

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#37

Unread post by SBM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:27 pm

Aqs
even correspondence system is used for learning of Quran, where a student from Jamea is dedicated for you and you can recite whatever you have learned every day by login in to a chatting room
Aqs
Now is this not contradicting, you said earlier that religious information can not be discussed on open forum but here you say that a Jamea student can impart the knowledge in a Chat room. To best of my knowledge a Chat Room in nothing but an open Forum.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#38

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:31 pm

anajmi wrote:
Moula Ali (as) offering salaat with three Khalifa can be a example in the long list of tradition of taqiya
Actually, when the prophet declared Hazrat Ali as his successor, he was practicing taqiya. Similarly, when the Dai says that he is following the Imam, he is practicing taqiya.

The long list of tradition of taqiya is a long list of crap that has been fed to people like you. (By the way, on this forum, I am practicing taqiya, nudge nudge, wink wink).

Please continue in your taqiyat and save the forum member from another deluge of Sunni's take on Taqiyat followed By shias in general and Bohras in particular(double nudge nudge, wink wink)

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#39

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:37 pm

omabharti wrote:
Aqs
even correspondence system is used for learning of Quran, where a student from Jamea is dedicated for you and you can recite whatever you have learned every day by login in to a chatting room
Aqs
Now is this not contradicting, you said earlier that religious information can not be discussed on open forum but here you say that a Jamea student can impart the knowledge in a Chat room. To best of my knowledge a Chat Room in nothing but an open Forum.

Oma,

How come a Jamea student listening to recitation of a person comes under discussion of deen, He is in no way imparting any deeni knowledge on open forum but listening to Quran tilawat and thats it.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#40

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:49 pm

aqs, you have now started clutching at straws to save yr hide from drowning.. grasping at wisps of hair and flailing at dandruff..!! :mrgreen:

so now you turn to ali as your supporter for taqqiya and still making desperate attempts at requesting bohras to go and get brainwashed?? what makes you think that i am talking without experience or that i havent been to these sabaks of yours upto the highest level?

and on what authority do you claim that the knowledge given out at sabaks is the secret knowledge held by the ahle bait? just because some 2 bit corrupt amil told u so? an amil who is in the employ of the kothar and is sent to extort every last penny from bohras, lord it over them and act as their satrap?

you can keep your secret knowledge to yrself and continue to wallow in yr secret society. please dont try to brainwash us over here. for any thinking bohra to seek secret knowledge from a bunch of thugs and mushriqs, is like begging for cancer. ask me. been there, done that.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#41

Unread post by aqs » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:16 pm

Al Zulfiqar wrote:aqs, you have now started clutching at straws to save yr hide from drowning.. grasping at wisps of hair and flailing at dandruff..!! :mrgreen:

so now you turn to ali as your supporter for taqqiya and still making desperate attempts at requesting bohras to go and get brainwashed?? what makes you think that i am talking without experience or that i havent been to these sabaks of yours upto the highest level?

and on what authority do you claim that the knowledge given out at sabaks is the secret knowledge held by the ahle bait? just because some 2 bit corrupt amil told u so? an amil who is in the employ of the kothar and is sent to extort every last penny from bohras, lord it over them and act as their satrap?

you can keep your secret knowledge to yrself and continue to wallow in yr secret society. please dont try to brainwash us over here. for any thinking bohra to seek secret knowledge from a bunch of thugs and mushriqs, is like begging for cancer. ask me. been there, done that.
Al Zulfiqar,

People are sensible enough to note the desperation in your posts, save them for a better discussion then you questioning the taqiyat of Moula Ali(as).

and regarding sabaks to the highest level, why dont you enlighten us by the level you went, Books studied, Ustaad name and year of study.

sabaks is not a secret society every one is welcome, few people have told some untoward incidents but this does not mean that the whole concept of sabaks has gone astray, every place has some black sheeps.

May Allah show the correct path to all of us.

Al Zulfiqar
Posts: 4618
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 5:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#42

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:57 pm

aqs wrote:
then you questioning the taqiyat of Moula Ali(as).

and regarding sabaks to the highest level, why dont you enlighten us by the level you went, Books studied, Ustaad name and year of study.

sabaks is not a secret society every one is welcome,
1. those who do sajdas to their syedna (who hunts and kills wild animals for pleasure in violation of the quran) and sing madehs to that effect, refer to him as haqiqi kaaba and natiqe quran, sing ghanu jeevo ta qayamat and wish to donate their khaals to make jootis for him, these mushriqs are going to lecture others on the greatness of ali?
2. enlighten YOU? a mushriq who believes that a syedna, who has no respect for his own mother and hides all references to her name, is going to take you to heaven?
3. if sabaks are not a secret society, why do they make you take oaths repeatedly that you will not reveal the secret knoweldge to anyone, so help you god? you have confirmed this several times yrself when questioned by members here, expressing yr inability to discuss such religious concepts on an open reform and in reply cleverly asking them to join sabaks.

any ordinary misguided bohra who does shirk unwittingly can be excused, but you claim to be privy to the esoteric ilm of ahle bait, lecture others on obtaining similar knowledge and yet practise shirk. that makes you a perfect mushriq.

no matter how you play yr broken record and how desperate you get, no one here is buying yr snake oil.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#43

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:11 pm

aqs, At least you have the merit of defending the indefensible with a straight face. Just wondering whether you have a smirk on your face when you write here. Or is it possible that you have no sense of irony? You have proved yourself to be a "sabak" junkie and as such all your argument is standard spiel that we get from abdes, nothing new about that except when you dropped this bombshell about Da'aim ul islam:
We dont believe the book which is available in public domain is the original one published by Syedna Qazi Noman, the original one is in treasures of Dawat in its pristine form, the one available in public domain is same as Nahjul balagha of Moula Ali(as), Heavily tempered
That is a fantastic claim. Can you prove the pristine originality of the copy in possession of the Dawat? If the Da'aim in the public domain has been tampered with then isn't it the moral and religious duty of the Dawat to let it be known to the public? Or are you saying that all shia-islmaili sects are reading up and following the "wrong" book?

Actually what you are saying makes sense. The dai already has a monopoly on the entry to jannah so it is only logical that he should have exclusive monopoly on the other "book" also. And I'm sure this pristine copy of Da'aim justifies all the excesses and violations of the Quran that the Dawat is practicing. We can't win with these wiley mullahs, can we? They are like latter-day brahmin pundits - the possessor and interpreter of secret knowledge. With taawil and taqiya you have already taken care of the quran - to tame tamper it in the service of the Dawat - and now you have the pristine Da'aim to do whatever you want with it.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#44

Unread post by porus » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:42 pm

aqs wrote: We dont believe the book which is available in public domain is the original one published by Syedna Qazi Noman, the original one is in treasures of Dawat in its pristine form, the one available in public domain is same as Nahjul balagha of Moula Ali(as), Heavily tempered
I missed this gem earlier. Similar claims have been made about the Quran too. The sub-text is: "Do not read it if it is available readily. It is not authentic and will lead you astray. We alone have the original. We cannot let you have it nor can we offer proof that we have it. We will however let you have some crumbs from time to time. This will strengthen your faith."

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#45

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:57 pm

aqs wrote:offer Nazrul maqam and pray that Allah gives you the nemat of Ahle Bait's ilm.
Nazrul Maqam=Money. Now whom do you give it to....the dai.... what he does of it ???? Same as what he does to the tonnes and tonnes of money offered to him or extorted by him under various pretext i.e. the sole beneficiary is he alongwith his large extended family who wants to live like king and prince/princesses. In short you pay in cash in order to get nemat of Ahle Bait's ilm, the concept which was totally alien for the Ahle Baits. I wonder how many muslims lightened their purse to get Islamic ilm.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#46

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:22 pm

aqs wrote:ghulam muhammed wrote:
aqs wrote:
All of the above Prophet(saw), Moula Ali(as) or Imamain (as) they were the Haq na saheb and they imparted knowledge and answered queries.


You have till now been consistently shouting on top of your voice that Burhanuddin saab is 'Haq na saheb', 'Haq na dai' and now you say that only the Prophet (s.a.w.), Mola Ali (a.s.) and Imams (r.a.) could impart knowledge as they were the only 'haq na saheb'. By saying this you are contradicting your own statement. See this is what happens after rigorous brainwashing sessions in the name of sabak....... it leaves you confused.



You need to understand the concept of Haq na saheb. When Prophet (saw) was present he (saw) was the Haq na saheb after him Moula Ali(as) and then the continuation in Imams(as) and in their seclusion Dai is the Haq na saheb. So when Oma talked about knowledge being imparted by Prophet(as), Moula Ali(as) and Imamain then i said that they were Haq na saheb. I have never mentioned they were ONLY haq na saheb
I am very clear about my deen and where i am headed for, its better you start looking for yourself.
Now you have proved beyond doubt that you are definately confused thanks to the brainwashing session viz. sabaks because you have clearly stated in your earlier posts that Burhanudin saab cannot impart ilm in general public but however he is 'haq na saheb'. BUT again you state the following:-

All of the above Prophet(saw), Moula Ali(as) or Imamain (as) they were the Haq na saheb and they imparted knowledge and answered queries.

So I again ask you that if other haq na sahebs can impart knowledge and answer queries then why cant Burhanudin saab do the same as according to you he is 'haq na saheb' ? Hence the conclusion is that either he is not haq na saheb or that he is not performing duties as required to be done by haq na saheb. Under both circumstances he is wrong which you have indirectly admitted to.

SBM
Posts: 6507
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#47

Unread post by SBM » Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:13 pm

aqs wrote:offer Nazrul maqam and pray that Allah gives you the nemat of Ahle Bait's ilm.
Br. Aqs
Give me a break please, I have to offer Nazrul Maqam and then I have to pray too, If I pay the Nazarul Maqam, should not some one else do the prayers for me. Please do not put the burden of both one me :D

Human
Posts: 382
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:24 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#48

Unread post by Human » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:38 pm

A bit of analysis on the this topic:
As aqs mentioned, no other bohri websites give any religious knowledge or 'ilm'. We are expected to attend sabaks. Not too sure, but has this to do with making the younger generation depend on people and not on websites or forums where they have the freedom of speech provided they can hide their true identity behind an ID? Whilst in sabaks, the pointy questions would never be answered clearly. The person asking might get a bad impression amongst the aamil or mulla or whoever and the others in sabak might think he doesn't have enough faith! He might also be ridiculed by the person teaching sabak. And the gossip would spread like fire in a dry forest as our community is very good at spreading rumours and gossips.
Another observation regarding this: The younger generation is pushed to marry early. About 21 for boys and 18 for girls. They even get engaged as early as 19 for boys and 16 for girls. This means they don't study higher. They don't get educated enough to ask logical questions against the blind faith and the personality cult. They are also expected to keep dadhis and wear ridas etc. They are told that try and do business, which means most of the kids join their father's businesses at a very young age and don't give a heck about studying. Thus they'll never be so educated and never turn their backs on our community and our moula.

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#49

Unread post by Smart » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:33 pm

My basic question to aqs remains unanswered. What is he doing here on an open forum? Promoting taqqiya? Does the fallacy of it all fail him?

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:56 pm

We dont believe the book which is available in public domain is the original one published by Syedna Qazi Noman, the original one is in treasures of Dawat in its pristine form, the one available in public domain is same as Nahjul balagha of Moula Ali(as), Heavily tempered
This is a freudian slip. I've always claimed that the Daimul Islam that I purchased from Amazon is fake. And now the confirmation comes from within the Dawat. :wink:

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#51

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:41 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
aqs wrote:
then you questioning the taqiyat of Moula Ali(as).

and regarding sabaks to the highest level, why dont you enlighten us by the level you went, Books studied, Ustaad name and year of study.

sabaks is not a secret society every one is welcome,
1. those who do sajdas to their syedna (who hunts and kills wild animals for pleasure in violation of the quran) and sing madehs to that effect, refer to him as haqiqi kaaba and natiqe quran, sing ghanu jeevo ta qayamat and wish to donate their khaals to make jootis for him, these mushriqs are going to lecture others on the greatness of ali?

Sajadah to Syedna(tus)?? has already been refuted by me earlier, and again you allege the same.Just tell me if you are not able to find the same on this Forum i will dig it out for you

2. enlighten YOU? a mushriq who believes that a syedna, who has no respect for his own mother and hides all references to her name, is going to take you to heaven?

again told earlier that Syedna(tus) cant take any one to Jannat till YOU have done things correctly like Walayat+Farizat Amal+Amal Saleha(complimentary)
3. if sabaks are not a secret society, why do they make you take oaths repeatedly that you will not reveal the secret knoweldge to anyone, so help you god? you have confirmed this several times yrself when questioned by members here, expressing yr inability to discuss such religious concepts on an open reform and in reply cleverly asking them to join sabaks.

already told that Ahle Bait's ilm can not be given on your terms, Their are ways and they will be followed. if you dont like to join sabaks loss is yours, no one is forcing you

any ordinary misguided bohra who does shirk unwittingly can be excused, but you claim to be privy to the esoteric ilm of ahle bait, lecture others on obtaining similar knowledge and yet practise shirk. that makes you a perfect mushriq.

You are shouting your lungs out by calling me a Mushriq, Just save your breadth i dont need to prove my faith to a keyboard warrior full of empty rhetorics.

no matter how you play yr broken record and how desperate you get, no one here is buying yr snake oil.
its seems that you have induldged in personel attack, i can very well reply in kind. But then their will be no difference between you and me, So you carry on with your snake oil messages and i will carry on my discussion with sensible people out here
between you have still not replied to Books you studied, Ustaad name, year and place

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#52

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:50 am

Humsafar wrote:aqs, At least you have the merit of defending the indefensible with a straight face. Just wondering whether you have a smirk on your face when you write here. Or is it possible that you have no sense of irony? You have proved yourself to be a "sabak" junkie and as such all your argument is standard spiel that we get from abdes, nothing new about that except when you dropped this bombshell about Da'aim ul islam:
We dont believe the book which is available in public domain is the original one published by Syedna Qazi Noman, the original one is in treasures of Dawat in its pristine form, the one available in public domain is same as Nahjul balagha of Moula Ali(as), Heavily tempered
That is a fantastic claim. Can you prove the pristine originality of the copy in possession of the Dawat? If the Da'aim in the public domain has been tampered with then isn't it the moral and religious duty of the Dawat to let it be known to the public? Or are you saying that all shia-islmaili sects are reading up and following the "wrong" book?

I dont know what the other sects have in their possesion so cant comment on that. But i am sure what dawat has. and In the end you see we have Haq na saheb to correct things, which others dont have :)

Actually what you are saying makes sense. The dai already has a monopoly on the entry to jannah so it is only logical that he should have exclusive monopoly on the other "book" also. And I'm sure this pristine copy of Da'aim justifies all the excesses and violations of the Quran that the Dawat is practicing. We can't win with these wiley mullahs, can we? They are like latter-day brahmin pundits - the possessor and interpreter of secret knowledge. With taawil and taqiya you have already taken care of the quran - to tame tamper it in the service of the Dawat - and now you have the pristine Da'aim to do whatever you want with it.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#53

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:53 am

porus wrote:
aqs wrote: We dont believe the book which is available in public domain is the original one published by Syedna Qazi Noman, the original one is in treasures of Dawat in its pristine form, the one available in public domain is same as Nahjul balagha of Moula Ali(as), Heavily tempered
I missed this gem earlier. Similar claims have been made about the Quran too. The sub-text is: "Do not read it if it is available readily. It is not authentic and will lead you astray. We alone have the original. We cannot let you have it nor can we offer proof that we have it. We will however let you have some crumbs from time to time. This will strengthen your faith."

we dont say do not read it, bu we say read it with caution as it can be heavily tempered, and if the interpreter has put few lines of his own between the text, how will you verify.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#54

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:01 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:
aqs wrote:offer Nazrul maqam and pray that Allah gives you the nemat of Ahle Bait's ilm.
Nazrul Maqam=Money. Now whom do you give it to....the dai.... what he does of it ???? Same as what he does to the tonnes and tonnes of money offered to him or extorted by him under various pretext i.e. the sole beneficiary is he alongwith his large extended family who wants to live like king and prince/princesses. In short you pay in cash in order to get nemat of Ahle Bait's ilm, the concept which was totally alien for the Ahle Baits. I wonder how many muslims lightened their purse to get Islamic ilm.

Ghulam Muhammed,

Offering Nazrul Maqam is a old practice prevalent since many dais. I believe that Reformists collect their own zakat and distribute it, so is Nazrul maqam amount is also collected or this practice is completely abolished

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#55

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:14 am

ghulam muhammed wrote:
Now you have proved beyond doubt that you are definately confused thanks to the brainwashing session viz. sabaks because you have clearly stated in your earlier posts that Burhanudin saab cannot impart ilm in general public but however he is 'haq na saheb'. BUT again you state the following:-

All of the above Prophet(saw), Moula Ali(as) or Imamain (as) they were the Haq na saheb and they imparted knowledge and answered queries.

So I again ask you that if other haq na sahebs can impart knowledge and answer queries then why cant Burhanudin saab do the same as according to you he is 'haq na saheb' ? Hence the conclusion is that either he is not haq na saheb or that he is not performing duties as required to be done by haq na saheb. Under both circumstances he is wrong which you have indirectly admitted to.
Burhanudin saab cannot impart ilm in general public
please show me where i have quoted this
So I again ask you that if other haq na sahebs can impart knowledge and answer queries then why cant Burhanudin saab do the same as according to you he is 'haq na saheb' ? Hence the conclusion is that either he is not haq na saheb or that he is not performing duties as required to be done by haq na saheb. Under both circumstances he is wrong which you have indirectly admitted to.
Sir i didnt knew that it will come to this level that i will have to explain in such a way. here you go

Past Haq na sahebs viz Propeht(saw) Moula Ali(as) and Imams(as) imparted knowledge as and when people queried them or when the need arised. The same is being done by Syedna(tus), either he delivers sermons or sabaks or people from his raza do the same.

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#56

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:18 am

omabharti wrote:
aqs wrote:offer Nazrul maqam and pray that Allah gives you the nemat of Ahle Bait's ilm.
Br. Aqs
Give me a break please, I have to offer Nazrul Maqam and then I have to pray too, If I pay the Nazarul Maqam, should not some one else do the prayers for me. Please do not put the burden of both one me :D

Br. you have got your break, pray, that is the best tool of a Mumin

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#57

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:23 am

Smart wrote:My basic question to aqs remains unanswered. What is he doing here on an open forum? Promoting taqqiya? Does the fallacy of it all fail him?

I am sorry i might have missed this out earlier.

My only intention to come on this website was to talk to people who have a difference of opinion. I am not here to discuss deen or intricacies of it in any way.

Maqbool
Posts: 849
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 4:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#58

Unread post by Maqbool » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:45 am

bohri wrote:Why do you compare Asghar bhai with the Sultan?
They have to, because there is no one scholar left in our community other then AE, who can give reply to the false claims from Quran by the Sultan!!!

Smart
Posts: 1388
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:01 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#59

Unread post by Smart » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:00 am

aqs wrote:
Smart wrote:My basic question to aqs remains unanswered. What is he doing here on an open forum? Promoting taqqiya? Does the fallacy of it all fail him?

I am sorry i might have missed this out earlier.

My only intention to come on this website was to talk to people who have a difference of opinion. I am not here to discuss deen or intricacies of it in any way.
Aren't you confused, buddy? what sort of talk? Small talk? This is a forum, with a very clearly defined agenda, if you are not here to discuss deen or its intricacies, what are you doing here? Soliciting students for sabaks? What is your agenda?

aqs
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:42 am

Re: Abdes -any bohra websites which impart any knowledge?

#60

Unread post by aqs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:42 am

Smart wrote:
aqs wrote:
I am sorry i might have missed this out earlier.

My only intention to come on this website was to talk to people who have a difference of opinion. I am not here to discuss deen or intricacies of it in any way.
Aren't you confused, buddy? what sort of talk? Small talk? This is a forum, with a very clearly defined agenda, if you are not here to discuss deen or its intricacies, what are you doing here? Soliciting students for sabaks? What is your agenda?
No Buddy i am not confused, I think its you have got confused between talking about reforms and seeking knowledge online. What i have understood is that this site gives a platform to people to talk about ill's begotten to Dawoodi Bohra community and Reforms initiated by Youths. Though i have some reservations on the claims but this site provides a platform to discuss things in a civilized manner. Kudos to Admin for maintaining the same