Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi bohra

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Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi bohra

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:27 am

Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi bohras are evenyually losing their culture and in the end are diverting themselves from ISLAM
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:31 am

see the example of udaipur itself...
the daughter of so called progressive dawoodi bohra leader is my classmate and she herself told me that she would prefer partying over ASHARA MUBARAK MAJLIS.......
she would have been thrashed by her parents if she would have belonged to shabab community but NO.. her father is busy preacing reforms instead of teaching her own daughter..
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Al Zulfiqar on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:05 pm

SU,

a casual glance at your posts makes it clear that you are a mischief maker with no substance in what he writes, except the avowed intention to sow discord and acrimony. progressive minded people here are far more insightful and intelligent than you might assume and can easily see through your maliciousness.

provide more facts and hard evidence of persons whom you accuse instead of making vague references, a habit you have probably picked up from your kothari masters who make airy-fairy claims about so-called mojizas of syedna. let me tell you, your brand of stupidity will not last long here. please do not assume that people are as stupid as YOU appear to be.

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Humsafar on Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:29 pm

Thanks AZ for a fitting response. Shabab_udaipur welcome and I hope you prove AZ wrong and will have something more substantial to contribute. Regarding your post, is that all you had to add in terms of how reformists view and practice moharram? In fact, this year the moharram by reformists was one of the best, if it could be described that way. The majlises were packed and went late into the night and because of which the shabab - people like you - complained to the police that reformists were disturbing the peace. This is how you react to the bayans of Imam Hussain and you have the gumption to complain about some misguided classmate and insinuate that all reformists are like her. Shame on you. Look at this link, and see how reformists (youth) observe moharram: Alam Procession by Bohra Youth.

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby humanbeing on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:24 am

Dear Humsafar / Readers

The whole ideaology of commemorating Muhrram Majlis (gathering) by public display ! is it really required? Does this public procession fulfil one’s devotion and empathy towards Imam Hussain and event of Karbala ?

Dress code : Is it wrong to be in a particular uniform (white : Saya, Kurta-Pyjama, Topi) to attend a common gathering / purpose / event ? A proper and streamlined uniform gives a feeling of togetherness and unity, atleast for the occasion for which people are gathering. People dressing to their own fancy looks like a lost soul (Begaane ki Shadi mein Abdulla Diwana). Wearing (white : Saya and/or Kurta-Pyjama, Topi) dress is not a copyright property of Kothar, its open to any person who wishes to wear it. It is just a suggestion, not a instruction / order / prejudice / ridicule of any feelings or belief.

Maatam : A lot has been said and criticized about Maatam by Shia or bohra mumins. Pictures here also show similar traits. I don’t wish to go into details of the mental psych of the ladies / gentlemen in the static pictures. Nor do I wish to dissect their intentions, mental state and observance of Gam-e-hussain. But doing Maatam on streets / wailing / crying, Narrating Noha / Marisya / Salaams on public streets over loudspeakers, what does it represent ??

I don’t wish to stir a debate on this Vs that. I m just expressing my opinion on ritualistic public display of affection / worship / empathy on secular space. Even if such display represents one’s devotion than let it be on privately hired grounds and spaces. Where one can express and practice their devotion in open, creating least or no disturbance to anyone else.

I m not against any sides (orthodox / reformist) nor do I hate any sides. We all are one. Such public display has become a tool for exerting political presence and comparison of one is holier than other !! I may be wrong .. I may be right !! For reader’s I leave it on their conscience to decide.

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:47 am

AZ
You should never judge other people`s intelligence when You dont even know anything about them.
when it comes to taking names, its not always right to take someone`s name. The girl I mentioned is just an example and i dont want to assasinate someone`s character by taking their names in public forums. This is my ideology and i dont care whether you call it orthodox or progressive.
Morever the issue i mentioned is really serious and you should not take the attention away from it. Also you mentioned me as attention seeker but let me warn you that i have no requirement of gaining attention as i already get a lot which you dont know as you dont know about my profession. so lets not get personal.
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:51 am

dear humanbeing,
I am sorry but i completely disagree with what you say. If its all about remembering allah then there is also no need of namaz.
hope to get a view from you.
KH
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby humanbeing on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:55 am

dear humanbeing,
I am sorry but i completely disagree with what you say. If its all about remembering allah then there is also no need of namaz.
hope to get a view from you.
KH


Dear SU

If you have read my post !! I m afraid that you have not understood my words / POV / opinion completely. You have jumped to the conclusion too fast too soon !

How does such procession display / public rallies represent remembrance of Allah or Gam-e-hussain / Condolences to event of Karbala ?

Namaaz is performed indoors (masjids / markaz / homes / limited marked space) as a matter of practice in life’s routine. Namaaz is a silent, calm, composed recitation of duaas and actions without show and pomp.

In certain situations / events / occasions / festivities / gatherings people may spread outside masjids on streets, due to lack of space inside. However this situation is out of crowding rather than an intentional display of faith. Does any person by choice and intention wants to perform Namaaz on streets and loudly ?

Gam-e-hussain is for your soul, conscience, heart, belief to realize, commemorate event of Karbala. Show / express it to Allah not people on streets or around. Even during bohra mumin majlis, we see devoted mumin believe that, louder they yell out “Ya Hussain” more will be the Sawaab !! more will be the devotion !! more will be the expression of Gam-e-hussain !! Zaakir-e-hussain recite wonderful nohas and marsiya to evoke that empathy and bring your eyes to tears, listen to them, feel the melancholy, do Maatam, yell and wail when you genuinely feel the grief, allow Zakereen to narrate in those wonderful nohas and marsiyas. Frenzy of Mataam interrupts this zaakirs to even complete their nohas / marsiyas. We see groups and circles of Bohra mumin’s involved in an invisible ego fight in yelling out “Ya Hussain” “ Ya Ali” as loudest as possible to outperform others (I may be wrong in my observation of Muharram Majlises I have attended at several cities, but frankly this is what I feel when I m standing in the majlis)

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:17 am

salam HB
I really understand and appreciate your viewpoint and agree partly with you on the view that SOMETIMES there is this "competition" that you mention , but it is not always a showoff. I myself observe this sometime during majlis but instead of opposing loudly and harshly, improvement can be done while remaining within the community too.
Anyways I really appreciate your raising of this topic. thanx for elaborating your view for me.
KH
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:36 am

salam humsafar
As for your comment i would like to elaborate my view point for you so that you can find it substantial.
U r right that reformist are celebrating muharram with lot of JOSH. But this is not the generation that i am mentioning about. Let me go into detail so that u can find something substantial.
When this all reforms etc started. I recall that the generation who thought about the changes were of that of my grandfather and grandmother. They were born and brought up as orthodox. They were also PABAND towards their daily prayers.
The generation that followed ie. of y mother and father were taught the values by their last generation that i mentioned above. So they were away from DAAWAT but not away from ISLAM. But the generation that came next, neither they went to masjids regularly(this is something that i am observing from last 15 years and no one can say its wrong), nor were they given proper values by their parents. the reason was that they had no one whom they could look up to as their leader. this led to their getting away from ISLAM itself. Now what i am talking about is the generation of our children.
What will they learn when half of their parents themselves know nothing and when they are born in a MAHOL, where values are the only thing that is losing its value.?
This is what i want to say and so is my topic of discussion that " DON`T YOU THINK THAT THE SO CALLED PROGRESSIVE DAWOODI BOHRA ARE LOSING THEIR CULTURE AND IN THE END ARE DIVERTING THEMSELVES FROM ISLAM AS WELL."
Think about it and come up with a reply that dose not measures my intelligence but it shows yours......

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby humanbeing on Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:45 am

If progressive bohra thinkers really care for the Bohra faith and consider every bohra to be as mainstream in terms of number and belief, then instead of classifying / isolating / differentiating themselves, they shall remain in the system and raise valid objections to corrupt practices.

Not everything is gone wrong with Bohra faith. There are positive developments also. Every rule, every change is not for subjugation / oppression of the masses. To stand different and justified, Progressive thinkers started questioning left right and centre.

Dress code : there is nothing wrong in white Saya-Kurta-Topi / Rida made mandatory to enter masjids and markaz. This instills a sense of personal hygiene, uniformity and equalness. Its just for prayers and religio-social gatherings which are of short duration. Majority of Bohra mumin are fashionable and wear and dress as they please. But progressives have made an issue of oppression and subjugation out of it.

Lisaan-e-Dawaat / Daawat ni Zabaan : This is also a non issue which progressive have stirred up. I agree that this form of language is recently developed by mixing several languages (urdu, arabic, marathi, gujrati, hindi) so what ?? we are in a constantly changing world, so what if some new form or evolved language is taking place. What is the harm in learning new way of speaking. English has changed over the years, addition of new words, way of speaking, pronunciations, etc. Some languages are getting extinct and some are getting developed or diversifying from existing ones. We see youngsters of today talking in several languages in one para itself mixing English with vernacular languages. No one is forced, oppressed, beaten up on not knowing or speaking Daawat ni Zabaan.

Reformist Mumins believe in freedom, Accountability and Justice. Then stand for it within the system, not away from it !! Raise your concern on valid objection with substantiating facts and theory. Reformist mumins are doing that. This website is one good example, conferernces and seminars are also a good effort. But whole focus gets diverted, diluted and derailed when non issues are made main issues. This what undermines credibility of Reformists in bringing positive change.
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At the same time, All is not well in the exisiting Orthodox System. There is corruption (social and financial) silently pervading into the community such as :

Excessive Taxations and Money oriented Walayat, Ibaadat, Kaffarat.

Segregation of Bohra mumin on financial prowess and influence within the community.

“Humein je Kahiye aem karo, Je kariye aem na karo” blunt hypocrisy
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For a commoner bohra mumin, any action / objection that affects his / her way of easy life is taken as threat. When progressive / reformist mumins encourage other commoner bohra mumin to join hands against oppressive rules and policies. They observe reformist / progressive way of life is scattered and lacks conformity, which commners are not used to living and find it unacceptable. Majorly dress code.

Majority of commoners are also tired of oppressive rules and policies. Everyone is fighting against injustice as per their perception and patience levels.
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Hussain_KSA on Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:05 am

SU

Would you please like to write something about visit of Syedna saheb's grand son Abde Ali son of Malik Ushtar who was in udaipur during Muharram and he complained to police that he get disturb by matam and Majlis by Youth people. Did he deliver some waiz or all the time relay of syedna's waiz and his paraising was the main concept of Muharram. Does it seems good to have ziafat and older people are touching feet of 20 years old grandson of syedna saheb during Muharram.

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Humsafar on Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:41 am

Humanbeing, when I cited the moharram "celebration" by reformists I was a bit hesitant to do so because I too am leery about public display of faith and emotion. The intention was not to prove that we are holier than abdes but only to counter the charge that reformists don't care about religion. The subject of public exhibition of one's religiosity (matam etc.) has been discussed on this forum exentsively and, I should say, exhaustively. So I do not want to go into it again, besides this thread is not the place for it.
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Humsafar on Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:10 pm

Shabab_udaipur, Let me tell you this, yes there was a period after the 70s revolt when reformist youth became indifferent to religion. It was only natural because those were heady times, the rebellion against the Kohtar and mullahs somehow also got translated into rebellion against what those mullahs represented - religion and restrictive traditions. So yes there was a period when young people lost focus of religion and took on bad habits and adopted unhealthy lifestyles. But this trend was not unique just among the reformist youth, the shabab youth were not completely unaffected by it. But that was all in the past, that phase is over. Let me repeat it, that phase is over. All is well now - religiously speaking. Young people are beginning to take a renewed interest in religion and some of them are better informed than most of your sabak-brainwashed abdes.
You agree that reformists "celebrated" moharram with much "josh". That josh does not come from a culture that is moving away from religion and tradition. On the contrary that josh comes from a movement towards religion. Besides, you should know that that josh has more credibility because we reformists do not force anyone to do anything. Those people are there on their own free will and have not been herded and corralled like you abdes.
That said, let it be said loud and clear that this constant charge that "reformists are moving away from religion" is a red-herring, a classic distraction from the focus of reformist agenda. When abdes like you can't refute the well-reasoned and well-documented financial and religious corruption of the mafia clergy, you invariably raise this straw man (of reformist irreligiously) and then beat it in desperation. But not matter how much and how many times you do this, the issues raised by reformists are not going to go away.
For arguments sake, let's put it this way, even if every reformist to the last child becomes an atheist, the fact that the mafia clergy is corrupt, illegitimate and un-Islamic will remain valid. Even if the whole world moves away from religioin, the fact is that the “royal family” has turned our Dawat into Dawat-e-Hadiaya Inc. and you abdes into slaves. So, forget about reformists’ religiosity or lack thereof, and start talking about your own beliefs and practice. Have you ever wondered that you were born a free human being and how you ended up being a slave of a “royal family”? This question is more fundamental to our religion – Islam – and how true you are to it. The culture you are so proudly tom-toming about is nothing but a culture of idol-worshipping slavery and oppression. This is the culture Islam wanted to destroy, but by strange miracle (of Aqa Maula) you abdes find joy and glory in it. Your culture has come back full circle - back to jahiliya. You abdes are in urgent need to re-discover Islamic culture.
And would you pls care to answer Hussain_KSA’s question?

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Al Zulfiqar on Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:10 pm

su,

i read your rather fatous reply. i appreciate that you do not want to name this daughter of a progressive.

well let me tell you a few things too. my son knows and is friends with a lot of bohra girls and boys, some of whose fathers are sheikhs and mullas, guess what? these boys and girls in particular are the most daring in the way they display rebellious behaviour away from their parents eyes. they drink, smoke and indulge in immoral behaviour, frequently changing boyfriends and doing various other unmentionable stuff.

this just goes to show that no one particular community has a monopoly on bad or good behaviour, but repression and force at home naturally leads to rebellious behaviour among kids, which is more frequent among fanatic abdes than progressives.

as for abdes under syedna being pure and pious muslims and taking this holier-than-thou attitude, looking down contemptously upon all other muslims, why havent you commented on my reply to your boast on being culturally and islamically more superior? let me remind you again as below:

"and your culture is? saying laanats on others? hurling abuse and spreading hatred about 'ola musalmano'?

admiring yout leaders flying first class and staying in palatial resorts while having no independent income of their own? doing maatam 24/7 mechanically without any understanding of the philosophy of kerbala? hogging on labrez jaman immediately after shedding crocodile tears? encouraging and condoning syedna and his family from hunting wild animals for pleasure, just after ashura?

putting on white uniforms and doing sajda to a human being and crowing about it in songs? an entire culture revolving around food without which no bohra would attend any majlis or any other religious function? making a public debacle for deedar of syedna and then later in an act of secret guilt, smudging amte's photos on the internet? a culture based on deception, secrecy and lies when syedna says and acts one thing among gullible bohras and shows another face and behaviour in public is a culture to be proud of???"

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby seeker110 on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:11 pm

After reading your basic question if progressives are loosing their Islamic culture and way of life.
Br.As a progressive myself I kept my culture and traditions.However I have learned about other Muslims.I feel happy to hear a Muslim name.Even if his name is Mohd., Omer,That does not mean Mr.Patel or Mr.Singh is any less.There is goodness in all of us.
Now as far as being a progressive,we dont believe in Dai parasti.When I go for majlis of Imam Hussain,I go for the love of Ahlebait.This was my Nabi's Family.I like to hear about their sufferings.I dont want to listen to Madhe.I dont want people eating.Only thing I like to see is a Sabeel providing cold water with Gulab nu pani.So in other words I like being a progressive, so I dont participate.
I miss Bhora bhai chargi. I miss us Bhoras not producing people like Peerbhaiys. we would if our baitul maal was used to provide for peoples shortcomings.Can you dare to imagine the good that could have been done if our baitul maal was used by an honest leader.
I am a Bohra first and Progressive after that.The abdes have driven out my children from the mosqes.They dont like Tamasha.They dont believe in Fairytales.
What Islam is the Abdes believe in?

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Kaka Akela on Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:33 pm

Abdes don't believe in Islam but they believe n "Dailam". We had a heated discussion about the 2.5% zakaat as prescribed in Daim ul Islam, but the brainwashed parrot, educated in Jamea kept saying, no no no, zakaat is whatever Maola says it is. If he says you pay more & more then you pay more & more. In general whatever the Dai says is what is shoved down the throats of the abdes. Dai is the final word on the religion of Islam that was brought by Rasulullah (SA). Rasulullah (SA) is not the last word. Rasulullah (SA) made keeping of beards a sunnat but the Dai made it a farizat!!!! Why???? Nowadays all the money collections are so wrapped up in religious garb and collected with such straight face that poor abdes are scared to death not to participate in it. Previously they used to give abdes 2 envelopes with Imam(SA) and Dai's name beautifully printed for najwa etc. Now they added one more envelope for the mansoos and it is not voluntary, but it is collected by the Aamil himself, now which abde would dare to see the Aamil without the three envelopes, this is a form of coersion and duress for collection of monies and then there is no accounting from anyone in jamaat.
they do prepare the income /expense statements to submit to the state to keep the non-profit organization status intact but they are so sanitize and far removed from reality and nothing is mentioned to the poor abdes.
Abdes are so thoroughly confused with overlay of religion on all their crooked shinanigans that they dare not leave the religion that they love.

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:00 am

salam AZ
you are now doing the same thing that i did when i first mentioned this topic... ie. vague mention of facts ie. your son knows "some " muula`s "some" sons who do "some" unmentionable tings......
i dont know about who these mullas are or who their sons are but what i know is what i see around and my MOULA does not hinder my view. What i see around is that their are a lot of progressive people who come to pray but tell me how many of them are youngsters?? How many of them can tel you the shahadat of imam hussain "muh-zabani"?? How many of them even know the names of all Imams ??? And how many of them know that the "QURAN PAK" that they are reading with the meanings is not actual meaning of quran... ???? ANSWER ME FIRST>.......
As for your second question.....
Yes, saying LAANAT on the kaatil of our beloved imam is our CULTURE.........
we never spread hatred about anyone.. they do it with their own actions. They stop us from making mosque of our AMIRUL MUMINEEN....
They stop us from reaching our beloved ABBAS-O-ALAMDAR`s kabr.... and what do u expect from us... garlanding them....???
Yes we are happy that our dai is travelling in A class flights.. tell me what problem do u have.. ???and you say that they have no income of their own.. they have investements in many global buiseness and they earn their money from it... You want to know where our money is going.. then go and look around in whole world...We reconstructed the mosque of ALI- MUSHKILKUSHA in koofa.... We made mosques in london, USA, Gathering halls in Grmany, France, Holland... We reconstructed the maouselem of SYEDNA HATIM on yemen...
And renovation projects of many of our old maousalems is still under work in whole world......

And what is the problem with NIYAZ??? YES 50% of people come in majlis to eat.. but in the process if they even grasp 30% of the good things said.., ,dont you think that the purpose of majlis is fulfilled...
And that with uniform.... YES, it is forced on us.. and some things should be forced if they are right.. Dosent a father force right thing on his child.. whats wrong in this? Didnt you had uniforms in schools?? What did it taught you?? to stay in discipline.. Yes we are disciplined.. if you want to compare then go and ask any person of any community and youll hear from them that bohras are most disciplined..
And we DONT do sajdah to a human.. WE do sajdah to the TAKHTE IMAMI on which he sits.. And thus we do sajdah to ALLAH who appoints IMAM....


NOW let me show you the culture of Progressives....
You know that the deeni knowledge they boast on.. where did it came from...???
Those 4 who ran from jamia... They stole these texts from jami tu saifiyah... They didnt had courage so instead of raising voice on wrong deeds(if any) , They conspired against daawat while remaining in jamia .. in process they stole lots of books.. many of which were returned back to SHAHZADAS when they came udaipur..
Now let me tell you an incident that took place within my family...
My uncle was one of the major lawyer of the progressive group.... As i already said that i am not here to assasinate someones charachter so i wont take his name.. ..
but when it came to the case of moiyadpura masjid all the progressive people came to my house to meet my uncle and told him that " YE LOG MSJID KO REPAIR KARWA KE KABZE ME LE LENGE TO MASJID KO TOOTS HUA HI REHNE DO.. REPAIR MAT HONE DO ______ SAHAB..." but my uncle (god may give peace to his rooh) he said that " YA MASJID TO ALLAH NU GAR HE AUR ME ALLAH NA GAR NI REPAIRNG NE ROKI NE GUNAH MA BHARAVU CHAHTO HAI NAI TO REPAIRING THAI JAWA DO.. JE ALLAH NU GAR REPAIR KAREGA ALLAH INU GAR REPAIR KAREGA." and then the mosque was allowed to repair.. So just because they may not lose their place in the mosque .. they wanted it to remain in a bad position.. this is their culture..??? This is what they boast on??
Now a rcecent incident that they are not allowing the repair of maouselem of syedi luqman ji saheb..... God knows what benefit they are seeing in it.... But by allah`s grace and moula`s dua, the work has again resumed.... and it will complete because, you cant stop someone from doing right thing ,for long time
I hope you find my answer point to point ....

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:07 am

salam hussain_ksa
yes there were relays on some days but not all and this thing about complaining.. i dont have any idea so first lt me find out about it... then ill be able to tell you..
yes he did bayyan of syedna sahab but only on 2nd day of muharram and that too not completely.. on all other days and also whenever waiz was relayed thre were bayaan of imam hasan, ali mushkilkusha, maulatena zainab, abbas alamdar , imam hussain and all the other ahlaibats and shaheeds of karbala.. and whats wrong in doing ziyafat of a young shehzada.?? cant we give give respect to younger people...???
And who told you to touch his feet.. if someone does that out of respect than i cant question his faith and i will not question his faith..?? why should i? everyone is answerable to allah for himself...
KH
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Conscíous on Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:20 am

Hei shabab_udaipur and welcome to the forum,,
Who made you my spokesman since you keep referring to "we"?? Not ever bohra agrees with your deluded and distorted views, so please talk only for yourself..
Thanks..
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:05 am

salam BooM
Since you all keep referring to abdeS... if u cant see the last S.... thus i also keep mentioning WE.... if you dont agree to my point of view you are free for open debate. I dont abuse or force anyone like some people here do... So first change your habit then i`ll change mine...
Kh
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Conscíous on Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:51 am

Salam shabab,
So from today, you are my spokesman??
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby humanbeing on Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:10 am

Hi SU

There is no victory in fighting and in such blame games over individual or group practices / beliefs followed in community. Any practice against Islam / Humanity / basic logic shall be unacceptable. However to justify your arguments, please consider :

Yes, saying LAANAT on the kaatil of our beloved imam is our CULTURE.........

What about uttering Laanats on any person with a different POV / without proofs of wrong doings. During Friday prayers when Madhe (Ghanu Jeevo) is sung, it is interrupted with Laanat uttered on Mr Ali Asghar Engineer. I don’t even know this guy, I don’t know what wrong he had done. When I enquired with people around, I was told some vague story that, he had abused and mistreated Sayedna Saheb.

we never spread hatred about anyone.. they do it with their own actions. They stop us from making mosque of our AMIRUL MUMINEEN....

Who are ‘they’ ? and I think you are mistaken about the terms (Mosque ?? or you mean mausoleum ?? ) please correct me or yourself.

stop us from reaching our beloved ABBAS-O-ALAMDAR`s kabr....

Who stopped you from reaching Abbas-o-Alamdar’s Kabr mubarak in Iraq ??

garlanding them....???

Modi was involved in killings of innocent people (muslims, non muslims or bohra mumins), and the kind of compromise done was a shameful display. Garlanding him is acceptable ?

they have investements in many global buiseness and they earn their money from it

As every bohra mumin is so devoted and dedicated to Sayedna Saheb’s royal family, can you please mention few global businesses.??

You want to know where our money is going.. then go and look around in whole world...We reconstructed the mosque of ALI- MUSHKILKUSHA in koofa.... We made mosques in london, USA, Gathering halls in Grmany, France, Holland... We reconstructed the maouselem of SYEDNA HATIM on yemen...
And renovation projects of many of our old maousalems is still under work in whole world......


Generalising this projects against complete collection of funds does not qualify for accountability. Renovation and upkeep of Mausoleums must be austere and under decent expenses. Get a proper audit done from a professional audit firm without bias. It will benefit Daawat with proper management of funds and optimum utilization of resources. As we are made to believe that, money is not misused, then what / why is the fear of audit ?

Can we request our local and international jamaats including Kothar to post audited balance sheet of their expenses and incomes.


.. Yes we are disciplined.. if you want to compare then go and ask any person of any community and youll hear from them that bohras are most disciplined..


Well not all would agree to your statements. We have witnessed many a times frenzy and misbehaviour by Bohra mumins in the crowd. Frenzy and chaos at the times of Mikaats, Deedar, Kadambosi.
Its become a practice in Kuwait jamaat to sell Ramadan Masalla Space or Muharram seats, due to this, we have witnessed how youngsters ask / taunt elders to vacate their purchased space and sit somewhere else Often leading to quarrels and fights. Don’t you hear in the Bayaans, Majlis and peak Magrib Namaaz time, how KhidmatGuzaar sheikh has to announce (Bairaao ! Khaamosh thai Jaao ).


And we DONT do sajdah to a human.. WE do sajdah to the TAKHTE IMAMI on which he sits.. And thus we do sajdah to ALLAH who appoints IMAM....

Nowadays A / V relays of Sayedna Saheb’s majlis is shown very often across the world, Some people in audience do Sajda towards the screen dedicating it to Sayedna Saheb. Screens are spread across the Hall, and sajda may or may not be in direction of Kabaa, but towards the screen which is reflecting Sayedna Saheb’s picture.


whats wrong in doing ziyafat of a young shehzada.?? cant we give give respect to younger people...???
And who told you to touch his feet.. if someone does that out of respect than i cant question his faith and i will not question his faith..??

There is nothing wrong in giving respect and facilitating guests. There are other acceptable means of showing respect to everyone. Shehzada from “Royal Family” are learned and educated people about Ikhlaas and Akhlaaq. No one is disrespecting them. But that doesn’t mean elders by virtue of age shall bend down and do salaam to shehzada who are half or 1/4th the age of the elder. Infact if some overwhelmed elder bends for Kadambosi, gora chumwa or salaam, this shehzadas shall stop them with humility set a fine example of their learned knowledge by expressing their respect for the elders. I would call that a true leader !!
This Amils, Shehzadas, Bhaisaheb hold themselves as our teachers / mentors / educators of deen and akhlaaq. Then they shall set a fine example for commoners like us to emulate.

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:27 am

salam hb
I think you are unaware of most of the things that have happened around... if you dont know who is Asghar Engineer then you definetely know nothing about the progressive movement.
Morever it appears that you are from shabab group and if your parents have kept you ill informed then you should ask them the reality of who`s and what`s and then you should browse back in history and you`ll find out that how were the Shias stopped from going to ziyarat of imam hussain and ahlaibet and then you`ll also understand that why did i mentioned the fact. Morever the topic of laanat that you mentioned... the laanat is read for the shaitaans of every daur Be it on those 3 in time of RASULULLAH, or on yazid(laanat) in the time of Imam Hussain or on aurangzeb(laanat) on the time of Syedna Qutubuddin shaheed.
So if there is a shaitan maujud in present times we would say laanat on him too.....
Also if you are from shabab group then you should stop finding out that who does what in majlis and you should listen more carefully so that you can keep yourself well informed.
just reading about someone on wikipedia dosent tells you about his charachter. So be more informed next time.
Also the shahzadas are also human beings and the are not godly in nature so if you will touch their feet then if dont say no then i dont blame them. You should not do it n first place.
And the thing about discipline.... Dude dont you realise that how disciplined we are from the fact that you yourself mentioned ie. everytym there is noise in majlis then khidmatguzar shouts that KHAMOSH... have you heard the same thing happen during any other reigious gathering.
And yes i was refering to maouselems...
Also let me ask you a question...Who are you to take HISAB from DAI-UZ-ZAMAN???? According to islamic laws HE is answerable only to IMAM-UZ-ZAMAN...
You should be happy that you have got such a DAI to whom you can give wajibaat etc and then be relieved of your duty... He will be their to hold your hand on the day of quayamat and if you think that what i am saying is not rational then you may as well join reformist because their is no point saying yes when you dont agree.
Morever if you have given misaaq then you should have heard that what is said during misaaq. It is in plain gujraati and means that "will you be faithfull towards daawat and never question its integrity... khao kasam ane kaho naam." So if you are with daawat then be with it or else seperate out.. Because you have to be sure with your own imaan.. it caannot be two faced...
KH
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby shabab_udaipur on Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:33 am

salam BooM..
I never said so..It seems as if u are interested in making someone your spokesperson.... well to say plainly NOT INTERESTED..........
Also dont include yourself in the WE... It was not about you and it cant be about you.. If u cant even get such a simple thing then i would only say..."KHUDA TAMNE NAIK TOUFEEQ APE..!!!"
kh
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby ozmujaheed on Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:57 am

Suu, this girlfriend of yours out of 365 days in a year would rather party o n Ashura, how thoughtful!

Does she fast everyday, but feels like feasting during daytime in ramadan ? Can you ask her she must be really in trouble if she likes going left when told to go right

And you think she is in such a state because the progs have influenced her? Well cure her by absorbing her in your cult and fix her ideology

Why do people even bother responding to this mental youth shabab,
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby humanbeing on Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:05 am

Dearest SU

I m not from Shabab !! I don’t even know what it is ? where it is ? and why it is ?

I m a simple commoner-next-door bohra mumin who attends majority of mikaats, pay my dues (Sabeel, wajebaat, hoob, najwa, silatul imam etc etc) and wish / strive for betterment of my community, its people infact everyone in general.

Please enlighten me on shaitans of today ! What are their misdeeds ?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey SU
How old are you dear ? just wanted to ask out of curiosity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also let me ask you a question...Who are you to take HISAB from DAI-UZ-ZAMAN???? According to islamic laws HE is answerable only to IMAM-UZ-ZAMAN...


I would not dare to ask hisaab from Sayedna Saheb ! He is not the one who is keeping all Financial Hisaab. I m requesting from the Accountants / Financial Managers / Consultants in Kothar who are using the collected funds in “Khair na Kaamo”. I m requesting local jamaats / amils to provide accounts of expenses and income. And what in the world offends you, when Accounts are asked. Is anyone making an accusation here ??? Kya kisi ne ye kaha accounts request karne ka matlab ilzaam lagana hota hai ?? or konsa ilzaam ??

Dear SU, transparency in accounts is for the benefit of Jamat and Kothar only. Better utilization of fund, optimum use of resources, clarity on need of funds for a particular project or undertaking.

You are such a concerned and devoted member of Jamaat, don’t you want our community to progress more better by optimum use of resources. Our jamaat holders are doing such a fine job. I m proud of them. They are so intelligent, humane and down to earth. No other community display such acceptance, love, brotherhood, harmony, tolerance as current system. As a bohra mumin you shall understand working of the Jamaats, this shall help our generation to take care of it in future.

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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Muslim First on Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:35 am

SU
Also let me ask you a question...Who are you to take HISAB from DAI-UZ-ZAMAN???? According to islamic laws HE is answerable only to IMAM-UZ-ZAMAN...


Br SU. AS
Where can you find this laws in Qur'an ansd authentic AHADITH?
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Conscíous on Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:24 am

shabab_udaipur wrote:salam BooM..
I never said so..It seems as if u are interested in making someone your spokesperson.... well to say plainly NOT INTERESTED..........
Also dont include yourself in the WE... It was not about you and it cant be about you.. If u cant even get such a simple thing then i would only say..."KHUDA TAMNE NAIK TOUFEEQ APE..!!!"
kh

Salam shabab,
Next time you write WE ( You and me), just remember to also mention to the readers of this forum when you are including and excluding me, so they don't get confused..
Thanks
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Re: Don`t you think that the so called Progressive dawoodi b

Unread postby Al Zulfiqar on Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:10 pm

su,

so you thought your replies would do you proud?

1. please show me a single masjid built by syedna out of his own funds, since you so confidently assert the same. the audit must be transparent and done through a reputable accounting firm. can you manage that so we can believe your claims?
2. disciplined?? are the abdes an army or some sort of a regimented paramilitary or police force that they have to be in uniforms? since when has a mob of meek sheep been referred to as disciplined? they all look the same with their wool coats and they are so timid and docile, kept in line and control by a few barking dogs. everyone refers to them as disciplined too.
3. if sajda to syedna is some invented crap called takhte imami, then why didnt the nabi accept a sajda e rasul or ali a sajda e vali? dont you think that they were much higher in rank than a mere lowly dai? your other sabak trained abde hawaldar had previously claimed that sajda to syedna is sajda e takriman wa taziman. so which of you 2 pandu hawaldars is right?
4. you claim that syedna and his parasitic family have all the right to enjoy the luxuries of maharaja's similar to moayiwah, since they "have investments in global companies." please educate us from where they got the money to make those investments? on what basis do you make these claims, do you have any inside information of these companies or the size of these investments?
5. assuming that syedna and his vast family are sitting on gold mines, does it still suit them to live the life of moawiyah and yazid, with huge palaces, ornate lifestyles and extravagant behaviour full of pomp and show? shouldn't he be setting an example and leading a simple life like panjatan paak whose shias we claim to be?

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