FEMALE CIRCUMCISION

[anajmi]

So you agree that Daimul Islam is not in line with Panjatani beliefs and practices. Hence it is not in line with Islam as taught by the Panjatan.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Daim ul Islam is what we Bohras follow, it orders for Female Circumcision.

looks like adam is a fiend and fanatic about forcibly circumcising females. i know a couple of ladies who are martial arts experts. they would like to know the whereabouts of adam.

adam, are you man enough to face them?

[Al Zulfiqar]

i know exactly how much of the head really got snipped of.

nalwala, your honesty is touching! it must hurt intensely when you look down and you find a barren aazaad maidan where once happy birds played in the bushes. you cannot possibly continue with a name like nalwala anymore, esp. when your nal is missing! it just doesnt feel right.

how about "mustafa mojizawala"? it is truthful, (you are the proud recipient of a mola'l mojiza) and emphasises your blind faith in mola. what greater tribute can you pay to mola when you proudly call yrself "mustafa mojizawala"?

[Adam]

Childishly diverting the topic

Daim ul Islam is what we Bohras follow, it orders for Female Circumcision. Chapter closed

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

case is not closed. these ladies are far from childish. they are seriously looking for you, the homicidal, genocidal, maniacal, serial female circumcisor.

if you are man enough, reveal yrself and face them, but be prepared to be circumcised a 4th time at their hands.

Daim ul Islam is what we Bohras follow, it orders for Female Circumcision. Case closed.

looks like adam is a fiend and fanatic about forcibly circumcising females. i know a couple of ladies who are martial arts experts. they would like to know the whereabouts of adam.

adam, are you man enough to face them?

[/quote]

[Adam]

I'll re-phrase.
The Prophet and Imam Ali (according to Daim) order for the Circumcision of Females.
They know what is best for the Ummah.

If you don't accept it, you are free to go against the will of the Prophet SAW.

Daim ul Islam is what we Bohras follow, it orders for Female Circumcision. Chapter closed

[anajmi]

The Prophet and Imam Ali (according to Daim) order for the Circumcision of Females.

That is misinterpretation. The prophet (saw) has given no such order.

[Adam]

Daim ul Islam is what we Bohras follow, it orders for Female Circumcision. Chapter closed

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

case is not closed. these ladies are far from childish. they are seriously looking for you, the homicidal, genocidal, maniacal, serial female circumcisor.

if you are man enough, reveal yrself and face them, but be prepared to be circumcised a 4th time at their hands.

Daim ul Islam is what we Bohras follow, it orders for Female Circumcision. Case closed.

looks like adam is a fiend and fanatic about forcibly circumcising females. i know a couple of ladies who are martial arts experts. they would like to know the whereabouts of adam.

adam, are you man enough to face them?

[anajmi]

Daim ul Islam is what we Bohras follow, it orders for Female Circumcision. Chapter closed

Correct. And Daim ul Islam doesn't contain the orders of the prophet (saw). The prophet (saw) ordered never to perform sajda to anyone other than Allah, but the Daim omitted it.

[Adam]

Here we go again.
AL Zulfi -
First you say you accept the Daim. The Daim talks about Female Circumcision.
Now you say

then i will accept the cruel and perverted manner in which present day abde regressives perform female khatna.

Make up your mind, either you accept the Daim as your book to the practices of Islam or you don't.
If you do, then stick to it and follow it.
If you don't then speak up.
If you believe Female Circumcision should be done, but in a different way, then clarify that.
Either you are lying, confused or going against your own beliefs.

Now let me ask my friend Gulam again
@Gulam

Do you accept The Daim? Very simple answer. Yes or No.

Why you shying away from this simple question?

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

case is not closed. these ladies are far from childish. they are seriously looking for you, the homicidal, genocidal, maniacal, serial female circumcisor.

if you are man enough, reveal yrself and face them, but be prepared to be circumcised a 4th time at their hands.

looks like adam is a fiend and fanatic about forcibly circumcising females. i know a couple of ladies who are martial arts experts. they would like to know the whereabouts of adam.

adam, are you man enough to face them?

[SBM]

Please sign online petition on Change.org
Eleven years ago, Farida Bano was circumcised by an aunt on a bunk bed in her family home at the end of her 10th birthday party.

The mutilation occurred not in Africa, where the practice is most prevalent, but in India where a small Muslim sub-sect known as the Dawoodi Bohra continues to believe that the removal of the clitoris is the will of God.

"We claim to be modern and different from other Muslim sects. We are different but not modern," Bano, a 21-year-old law graduate who is angry about what was done to her, told AFP in New Delhi.

She vividly remembers the moment in the party when the aunt pounced with a razor blade and a pack of cotton wool.

The Bohra brand of Islam is followed by 1.2 million people worldwide and is a sect of Shia Islam that originated in Yemen.

While the sect bars other Muslims from its mosques, it sees itself as more liberal, treating men and women equally in matters of education and marriage.

The community's insistence on "Khatna" (the excision of the clitoris) also sets it apart from others on the subcontinent.

"If other Muslims are not doing it then why are we following it?" Bano says.

For generations, few women in the tightly-knit community have spoken out in opposition, fearing that to air their grievances would be seen as an act of revolt frowned upon by their elders.

But an online campaign is now encouraging them to join hands to bury the custom.

The anti-Khatna movement gained momentum after Tasneem, a Bohra woman who goes by one name, posted an online petition at the social action platform Change.org in November last year.

She requested their religious leader, the 101-year-old Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin, ban female genital mutilation, the consequences of which afflict 140 million women worldwide according to the World Health Organisation.

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin is the 52nd Dai-al Mutalaq (absolute missionary) of the community and has sole authority to decide on all spiritual and temporal matters.

Every member of the sect takes an oath of allegiance to the leader, who lives in western city of Mumbai.

When contacted by AFP, Burhanuddin's spokesman, Qureshi Raghib, ruled out any change and said he had no interest in talking about the issue.

"I have heard about the online campaign but Bohra women should understand that our religion advocates the procedure and they should follow it without any argument," he said.

But over 1,600 Bohra Muslim women have since signed the online petition.

Many describe the pain they experienced after the procedure and urge their leader to impose a ban.

"The main motive behind Khatna is that women should never enjoy sexual intercourse. We are supposed to be like dolls for men," 34-year-old Tabassum Murtaza, who lives in the western city of Surat, told AFP by telephone.

The World Health Organisation has campaigned against the practice, saying it exposes millions of girls to dangers ranging from infections, hemorrhaging, complicated child-birth, or hepatitis from unsterilised tools.

In the Middle East, it is still practised in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan and Syria.

"It is an atrocity committed under the cloak of religion," says Murtaza, who along with her husband was asked to leave their family home when they refused to get their daughter circumcised.

"My mother-in-law said there was no room for religious disobedience and we should move out if we cannot respect the custom," she explained. "It is better to live on the street than humiliate your daughter's body."

Asghar Ali Engineer, a Bohra Muslim and expert on Islamic jurisprudence, has known the dangers of fighting for reform.

He has authored over 40 books proposing changes, particularly around the status of women, and has been attacked by hardliners inside a mosque in Egypt and had his house trashed by opponents.

While both France and the United States have laws enabling the prosecution of immigrants who perform female circumcisions, the practice remains legal in India and Engineer expects this to remain the case.

"Female circumcision is clearly a violation of human rights, the Indian government refuses to recognise it as a crime because the practice has full-fledged religious backing," he said.

"No government has the courage to touch a religious issue in India even if the practice is a crime against humanity."

He says many fathers are simply unaware of the damage they are doing by following the custom.

"I prevented my wife from getting our daughters circumcised but in many cases even fathers are not aware of the pain their daughters experience," he says.

094432311.html;_ylc=X3oDMTNsbTNvOGV2BF9TAzg0ODk2NDMyBGFjdANtYWlsX2NiBGN0A2EEaW50bAN1cwRsYW5nA2VuLVVTBHBrZwNiNjA2NDVkMy02YjFjLTMzMDQtYjdlNC1hYzdmNmY1M2M2NTkEc2VjA21pdF9zaGFyZQRzbGsDbWFpbAR0ZXN0Aw--;_ylv=3

[SBM]

I wonder if this news can be sent to US State Dept as well as to US Attorney General and to US Congress and inform them about Dawat E Hadiay USA is part of this in human treatment

[sixfeetunder]

"The main motive behind Khatna is that women should never enjoy sexual intercourse. We are supposed to be like dolls for men,"

This line sums up the entire debate for me. This is the bottom line.

[anajmi]

"The main motive behind Khatna is that women should never enjoy sexual intercourse. We are supposed to be like dolls for men,"

I do not understand the logic behind that kind of thinking. My personal experience is that a man enjoys sex that much more if he believes that his partner is enjoying it too. Otherwise, might as well just get a doll!!

[SBM]

I hope this does not turn into just Sex topic but also focuses on In human treatment and bias against women

[sixfeetunder]

"The main motive behind Khatna is that women should never enjoy sexual intercourse. We are supposed to be like dolls for men,"

I do not understand the logic behind that kind of thinking. My personal experience is that a man enjoys sex that much more if he believes that his partner is enjoying it too. Otherwise, might as well just get a doll!!

If women do not enjoy sex, they would not leave their husbands, even if the husbands cannot satisfy them physically. Then, husbands don't have to worry about satisfying their wives physically. I think this is the logic.

Also, when the husbands used to go for long voyages for years together, they would be rest assured that back home, their wives remain loyal to them, as they wouldn't know what an orgasm is.

[SBM]

sixfeetunder
I hope this was a sarcasm and not your real POV

[Adam]

Follow the Teachings of the Prophet and Imams.
That's all that needs to be done.
Very simple. And don' decide what YOU think is best. They know better.

Female Circumcision is directly the farmaan of Imam Ali.

Shows how weak your practices are.

[anajmi]

Allah talks in the Quran about the Ulul Albab - Those who can think. Those of understanding. Abde idiots obviously are not from that category.

[SBM]

Follow the Teachings of the Prophet and Imams.
That's all that needs to be done.
Very simple. And don' decide what YOU think is best. They know better.

Female Circumcision is directly the farmaan of Imam Ali.

Shows how weak your practices are.

Adam
It is amazing that you are so infatuated with female circumcision and you quote Imam Ali but how about Imam Ali's teaching of helping poor and destitute. Your's and other Regressives's silence on "Poverty in Ahmedabad" thread is deafening

[progticide]

We DBs shall continue to practice every custom and tradition followed by our ancestors and approved by the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time.

Any custom followed for generations but ordered to be discontinued by the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time shall be undertaken without any question.

Similarly, any new custom introduced by the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time shall be practiced without any question.

So, you progressives should understand this fact once and for all. Your words or actions or suggestions or recommendations or reforms do not hold any value to DBs.

[Humsafar]

We DBs shall continue to practice every custom and tradition followed by our ancestors and approved by the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time.

Any custom followed for generations but ordered to be discontinued by the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time shall be undertaken without any question.

Similarly, any new custom introduced by the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time shall be practiced without any question.

So, you progressives should understand this fact once and for all. Your words or actions or suggestions or recommendations or reforms do not hold any value to DBs.

Spoke like a true Dai-worshipper. Of course, you're an abde. You're not allowed to question.

[anajmi]

Well, we will always have idiots on earth. During the time of each dai mutlaq or futlaq, those who use their Aql as ordered by Allah in the Quran, will form a progressive group. Those incapable of thinking will be proud of their shortcomings and revel in their humiliation. Some people we should feel sorry for, the others deserve what they get.

[Aarif]

Well, we will always have idiots on earth. During the time of each dai mutlaq or futlaq, those who use their Aql as ordered by Allah in the Quran, will form a progressive group. Those incapable of thinking will be proud of their shortcomings and revel in their humiliation. Some people we should feel sorry for, the others deserve what they get.

That applies verbatim to you as well. Aren’t you the one who justifies cruel practices like triple talaq and halala in the name of Sunnah and Quran? You are no different than the abdes. By the way there are many articles that link FGM to prophet’s sunnah. For example here is the Hadith talking about female circumcision:

“Circumcision is obligatory for men and it is an honour for women”

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/427

Why are you bashing the poor bohras for following a practice that was considered a honor by the prophet? Here is some more information pointing out that female circumcision was practiced among Muslims during the prophet’s time and he did not explicitly stop it:

http://answering-islam.org/Index/C/circumcision.html
http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/reveal ... 7.htm#p123
http://answering-islam.org/Sharia/fem_circumcision.html

Others please note that I DO NOT promote or support FGM in any way. However, if bohras are following it then so are other Muslims in many countries. Instead of ridiculing bohras for following this practice this thread should be moved to Islam Today and the entire ummah should be condemned for following such a cruel practice.

[anajmi]

The next time you wake up from you slumber and decide to post something, do not!! Now, go back to sleep.

[Humsafar]

Aarif, in your eagerness to bash anajmi, you forgot to copy paste the full quote: "Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith.
The prophet also did not explicitly stop slavery, does it mean it is OK to keep slaves?
Female circumcision is a euphemism, it is called FGM for a reason. It is a cruel, harmful and unnecessary practice. If others Muslims are doing it then they must stop it too, and condemned too. If it is being discussed here it's because this is a Bohra forum, and this is a Bohra issue.

[Aarif]

Aarif, in your eagerness to bash anajmi, you forgot to copy paste the full quote: "Circumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women," but there is some debate as to the authenticity of this hadith.
The prophet also did not explicitly stop slavery, does it mean it is OK to keep slaves?
Female circumcision is a euphemism, it is called FGM for a reason. It is a cruel, harmful and unnecessary practice. If others Muslims are doing it then they must stop it too, and condemned too.

Humsafar,

This post was specifically written for Anajmi who displays double standards on this forum. On one hand he support practices like triple talaq and halala because it is practiced by sunnis. On the other hand he condemns practices like FGM because they are practiced by bohras. It seems that in your zeal to be the first respondent to my post you forgot to read my last paragraph where I have clearly mentioned that I am against FGM and it should be condemmed. You also did not read all the links that I posted. There is tons of other information on the web stating that FGM was practiced during the time of prophet and also after his demise. It was not stopped or prohibited by any of the four khalifas.

If it is being discussed here it's because this is a Bohra forum, and this is a Bohra issue.

FGM was always practiced among bohras. It is not a new tradition started by the last two Dais. Now as far as I understand the reformists have a problem with the accountability and not with the core Bohra faith. By criticizing FGM you are trying to change the core bohra faith. But that would mean you are contradicting yourself. Are you trying to reform the bohra religion or the corrupt Dai? And if you are trying to look at this issue from a humanitarian and Islamic perspective then it applies to entire Muslim ummah and you cannot justify it as a mere bohra issue unless you believe that PROGRESSIVE bohras are not muslims.

[Humsafar]

Aarif, your battle with anajmi does not concern me, I only wanted show you your half-baked justification for FC. That you support or do not support it is immaterial.
I don't think FC is part of the "core Bohra faith", it is not fundamental to their faith. Women won't stop being DB just because they are spared this torture. It is a reprehensible practice, affects a vulnerable section of our community and as progressives we must oppose it. Enlightened Dais/Imams are well within their right to rule against it. Reformists' focus is on accountability etc. but also on human rights of DB, and this issue is part of human rights of women. Whether this topic should be here or in "Islam Today" is a pointless argument. I'll not waste my breath on it.