Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.

fayyaaz
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#2

Unread post by fayyaaz » Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:50 am

anajmi,

I thought that khokawala was your [DELETED] . I warn you though. He is quickly taking over your crown as Mawlana Wahhabi-in-Chief on this forum. If you do not excel him in your anti-Bohra and anti-Shia tirades, you might end up having

[DELETED]

Admin,

I suggest you create an anti-Bohra thread and an anti-Shia thread, or better still, separate sub-forums for these topics, and move this conversation and similar ones there. It will be a lively sub-forum and increase traffic to this forum. I have identified the illustrious members of this set. They are:

anjami, indisputable leader

khokawala, pretender for leadership. Expect a coup

Jockey, the ignorant one

SBM, intellectually-challenged one pretending to be a Bohra

JC. Not sure about this guy. Protests his love for ahl-e-bayt. Definitely out of the Bohra community.

GM. I have great doubt about this guy. Though an anti-Bohra, he his most likely a card-carrying member of the community. He has access to insider happenings and is a source of much information. He also professes love for ahl-e-bayt. I think he is not sincere in that claim. I consider him a hypocrite anti-Bohra Bohra.

Of course, there may be others. I wait for suggestions.
Last edited by fayyaaz on Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

khokawala
Posts: 184
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#3

Unread post by khokawala » Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:42 am

What can one expect from an athiest and a Islamophobe who cant digest the messages of our beloved prophet pbuh spreads? you are the agent of Ali sina ?

chocoman
Posts: 79
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#4

Unread post by chocoman » Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:10 pm

Enemity is the occupation of fools
- imam Ali (a.s)

KA786110
Posts: 360
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#5

Unread post by KA786110 » Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:36 pm

Maybe academic for people of Wahabi/Salafi/Deobandi bent. But to me it is just a propaganda and to keep their own flock mis-guded.

For over 1400 years they(sunnis) have been trying to justify the betrayal of Holy Prophet's final commands by early Muslims and validate their actions. But no matter how much they try they will not be able wipe out the fact that Ghadir-E-Khum event happened and Hazrat Ali(a.s) was the appointed as Mowla of the all Muslims.

Try this thought experiment. Forget about shia-sunni split. Just think that you are living in the time of the Prophet(pbuh) and you have accepted Islam and are true faithful and obey all commands of Allah and His Nabi (pbuh). You hear Holy Prophet's (pbuh) message at Ghadir-E-Khum.

“A laysa Allahu awla bi al-mu’minin? Qalu: Bala. Qala: Allahumma man kuntu mawlah fa ‘Aliyyun mawlah. Allahumma wali man walah wa ‘adi man ‘adah
(Is not God superior to the faithful? Yes! said the gathering. He said: O Allah! For whomsoever I am master ‘Ali is his master. O Allah! befriend his friends and despise his enemies)” Al-Musnad, hadith no. 950


What would you do? How would you respond to Holy Prophet's (pbuh) command? For myself I would respond to it the same way as Hazrat Umar Farooq (ra) did. Saying yes to Holy Prophet's (pbuh) command and accepting Hazrat Ali (A.S) as Amir-ul-Mominin.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:11 am

Hazrat Ali is dead and he is no longer anyone's Amir-ul-Mumineen. I would worry about the current Imam who is hiding and the current Dai who is looting rather than who should've been leading 14 centuries ago!!

KA786110
Posts: 360
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#7

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:21 pm

anajmi wrote:Hazrat Ali is dead and he is no longer anyone's Amir-ul-Mumineen. I would worry about the current Imam who is hiding and the current Dai who is looting rather than who should've been leading 14 centuries ago!!
That is where you are mistaken. Do not look at at physical life span of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Hazrat Ali (a.s). Their light through Imams will continue to guide mumineens till the end. As Holy Prophet said:
“Inni tarikun fikum al-thaqalayn, ahaduhuma akbaru min al-akhar, Kitaballah hablun mamdudun min al-sama’-i ila al-arz wa ‘itrati Ahl-i Bayti, wa annahuma lan yaftaraqa hatta yarida ‘alayya al-hawz”
I am leaving among you two precious things, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah which is the rope extending from the sky to the earth and my progeny my Ahl al-Bayt. And the two will never part with each other until they return to me at the pool (of kawthar in paradise).


But you already know that. This is nothing new for you.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:23 pm

Correct. I know all this. This is nothing new. And obviously, you are wrong, since there is no Ahlul Bayt amongst us. So, the prophet (saw) obviously didn't say what you claim he said.

KA786110
Posts: 360
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#9

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:33 pm

anajmi wrote:Correct. I know all this. This is nothing new. And obviously, you are wrong, since there is no Ahlul Bayt amongst us. So, the prophet (saw) obviously didn't say what you claim he said.
Just keep denying. As they say denial is the first step of acceptance.

How can those who accepted the will and command of God and Prophet (pbuh) be on the wrong? Hadith I quoted is very well known and authentic. But you can keep ignoring it. There is no compulsion in matters of faith.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:32 pm

The hadith you quote is a lie, since there are no ahlul bayt around, at least none that are bohras.

KA786110
Posts: 360
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#11

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:33 pm

anajmi wrote:The hadith you quote is a lie, since there are no ahlul bayt around, at least none that are bohras.
Your denial does not invalidate it. That is your loss that you don't see Ahlul Bayt. Why do people still recite darud in their prayer? Go figure!!!!

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:42 pm

What does reciting durud have to do with a made up hadith?

KA786110
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#13

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:51 pm

anajmi wrote:What does reciting durud have to do with a made up hadith?
Review the meaning of the durud and think about its implications. One more time the hadith I quoted is not made up.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#14

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:56 pm

Once again, what does reciting durud have to do with a made up hadith?

According to your hadith, the prophet (saw) has left with us two things. The Quran, which we all have, and the Ahlul Bayt. Where are the Ahlul Bayt? Stop dancing around and answer that simple question.

KA786110
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#15

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:30 pm

anajmi wrote:Once again, what does reciting durud have to do with a made up hadith?

According to your hadith, the prophet (saw) has left with us two things. The Quran, which we all have, and the Ahlul Bayt. Where are the Ahlul Bayt? Stop dancing around and answer that simple question.
Actually you are the one who is denying a true and valid hadith. As I said earlier your denial will not invalidate it.
The recitation of durud has something to do with that hadith because the hadith says that Ahlul-Bayat and Quran will be together on this earth until the day of judgement. The recitation of the durud is an implicit acceptance of that fact. God has and will continue to protect Ahlul Bayt.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:43 pm

The quran is in front of the world. The ahlul bayt are not. The evidence that God has protected the quran is in front of us. Sorry buddy. Most of us live in real land and not fantasy land.

KA786110
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#17

Unread post by KA786110 » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:24 pm

anajmi wrote:The quran is in front of the world. The ahlul bayt are not. The evidence that God has protected the quran is in front of us. Sorry buddy. Most of us live in real land and not fantasy land.
I will keep living in the world with obedience to God's, Holy Prophet's (pbuh) and Ahlul-Bayt Imams' commands and teachings.

So keep living in your so called REAL world. Ahlul Bayt are around but you would not recognize them. The problem is that you hear but do not understand and see but do not perceive. ("... Truly it is not their eyes that are blind, but their hearts which are in their breasts(22:46)".

You keep following those early shahabas who betrayed Holy Prophet's (pbuh) last commands due to their greed for worldly power and tribal/family rivalries.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:28 am

Ahlul Bayt are around but you would not recognize them.
Well, then they are not good at their job. At least half of what the prophet (saw) left is available and recognizable.
You keep following those early shahabas who betrayed Holy Prophet's (pbuh) last commands due to their greed for worldly power and tribal/family rivalries.
This crap has been fed to you ad nauseum. You guys are hung up on who was the ruler. That is the problem with you people. You are more interested in the worldly kingdom. No wonder you call your Dai "sultan". What a shame. 14 centuries lost in the wilderness crying about a throne!!

By the way, can you give me a teaching of the ahlul bayt that the Sunnis/Wahhabis do not know about? Just one example?

Well, I guarantee that you won't be able to tell me. Of course your response will be some hocus pocus bull about not recognizing the ahlul bayt and their teachings yadi yadi yada, instead of anything concrete.

KA786110
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#19

Unread post by KA786110 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:22 am

anajmi wrote:
Ahlul Bayt are around but you would not recognize them.

Well, then they are not good at their job. At least half of what the prophet (saw) left is available and recognizable.
Sunni sect originators did not recognize them in plain sight then how will you? A well does not come to the thirsty.
You keep following those early shahabas who betrayed Holy Prophet's (pbuh) last commands due to their greed for worldly power and tribal/family rivalries.

This crap has been fed to you ad nauseum. You guys are hung up on who was the ruler. That is the problem with you people. You are more interested in the worldly kingdom. No wonder you call your Dai "sultan". What a shame. 14 centuries lost in the wilderness crying about a throne!!
You can say that about your own beliefs. The whole sunni thing was dreamed up/crafted during Ummayads and Abassids to counteract Alid Imams influence. So keep lapping that up.
By the way, can you give me a teaching of the ahlul bayt that the Sunnis/Wahhabis do not know about? Just one example?
Oh yes I could: Tolerance of other interpretations and Valuing human lives.
Well, I guarantee that you won't be able to tell me. Of course your response will be some hocus pocus bull about not recognizing the ahlul bayt and their teachings yadi yadi yada, instead of anything concrete.
I gave two concrete things above and can say more but a phrase comes to mind "Pearls before swines".

Now lets see what more 'khichdi' you can cook up?

SBM
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#20

Unread post by SBM » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:49 am

The only living Ahle Bayt according to them are King of Jordan(Hashmites) as well Aga Khan

humanbeing
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#21

Unread post by humanbeing » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:22 am

KA786110

Interesting debate. I agree that Ahle-bayt is present among us. In my opinion, it is their message, their way of life, obedience to Prophet’s sunnah the rivayats they we hear about them, these keep them alive in my heart, and this is how, Ahle-bayt becomes guiding souls for my spirituality. I have interacted with sunni muslims and they revere Ahle-bayt and Sunnah of prophet in same breath. I have discussed incidents of karbala and they acknowledge as well as take pride in the sacrifice of Imam Hussein. Many devout sunni muslims put up picture frames of Prophet muhammed’s family and friend tree, where I saw Pak panjatan’s name highlighted with more glitters. On day of ashura, they distribute kheer to mark the day.

I am talking about normal routine people that I meet. Not politically motivated leader or godmen representing any particular sect. I feel amused about these schism propaganda dividing muslims into various sects. Also Shias today stand more divided then anyone else. After Hinduism it would be shiaas including variety of bohra sects that are so fragmented.

I read, “Mullah in the main frame” which summarizes the successions of Imams and all the political drama around every succession. By the way this book was compiled with help of kothar, it mentions in the acknowledgements.
KA786110 wrote: You keep following those early shahabas who betrayed Holy Prophet's (pbuh) last commands due to their greed for worldly power and tribal/family rivalries.
Looking at the conduct of kothar, I wonder, if they are really following Ahle-Bayt or Sunnah of Prophet ?

May I ask about your views on Kothar and its extravanagent lifestyle ? do you support them as representative’s of Ahle-Bayt !

I cannot generalize which muslim sects are true followers / muslims. Because this is so subjective to individual muslim’s conduct. I have found many sunnis to be far better than the Kotharies who monopolize their ownership of ahle-bayt.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#22

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:50 am

Oh yes I could: Tolerance of other interpretations and Valuing human lives.
This is nothing new. This is in the Quran. The Quran says not to abuse Gods of others lest they abuse your God and the Quran also says that killing one innocent is like killing the entire mankind.

However, you have to also remember what Ibrahim (as) did. He broke all the idols. Also consider what the prophet (saw) himself did to the idols inside the kaaba.

Tolerance of other interpretations doesn't mean ignoring blasphemy.

C'mon man! You have the Ahle Bayt. You can surely do better.

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:57 am

And how could I forget what Hussain himself did. Did he tolerate the interpretation of Yazid?

anajmi
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:59 am

And how about SKQ and SMS tolerating each other's interpretation instead of invoking laanat on each other? These are the guys who apparently have the Ahlul Bayt in their pockets!!

topiwala
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#25

Unread post by topiwala » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:11 am

this forum is nothing but gathering place of wahhabis , I would eve call GM,SBM as wahhabi because although they detest the saudi wahhabis , but what they are preaching is pure wahhabism theory which has nothing to do with places like saudi,india etc. Wahhabis is not about country but an ideology. Even the awwwal ,sani etc were all wahhabis and these modern wahhabis are true followers of awwal etc. The reformists themselves have adopted the wahhabi ideology which rejects the priesthood\saints intermediateires.

humanbeing
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#26

Unread post by humanbeing » Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:12 am

topiwala wrote:this forum is nothing but gathering place of wahhabis , I would eve call GM,SBM as wahhabi because although they detest the saudi wahhabis , but what they are preaching is pure wahhabism theory which has nothing to do with places like saudi,india etc. Wahhabis is not about country but an ideology. Even the awwwal ,sani etc were all wahhabis and these modern wahhabis are true followers of awwal etc. The reformists themselves have adopted the wahhabi ideology which rejects the priesthood\saints intermediateires.
According to topiwala, every non-abde is a wahaabi !

DisillusionedDB
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#27

Unread post by DisillusionedDB » Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:25 am

humanbeing wrote:
topiwala wrote:this forum is nothing but gathering place of wahhabis , I would eve call GM,SBM as wahhabi because although they detest the saudi wahhabis , but what they are preaching is pure wahhabism theory which has nothing to do with places like saudi,india etc. Wahhabis is not about country but an ideology. Even the awwwal ,sani etc were all wahhabis and these modern wahhabis are true followers of awwal etc. The reformists themselves have adopted the wahhabi ideology which rejects the priesthood\saints intermediateires.
According to topiwala, every non-abde is a wahaabi !
Exactly what I said on another thread.

kimanumanu
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#28

Unread post by kimanumanu » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:23 am

Posting here makes him/her a wahabi too.

SBM
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#29

Unread post by SBM » Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:53 am

Topiwala
So when are you going to label the followers of SKQ as Wahabi?

topiwala
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Re: Shiism a brief analysis: An excellent academic primer

#30

Unread post by topiwala » Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:45 am

No SBM,

KQ,ALIYA BOHRAS etc are not wahhabis, wahhabis have a distinct marker i.e opposition to intermediateries and distrust of the leader of Islam. The biggest propoganda that is spread is that wahhabism has only to do with saudi, thats patently wrong. A wahhabi is the one who opposes and suppresses culture and the rights of the rightful leader(in case of bohra :Daee). Wahhabis themselves face this problem from pure bred wahhabis withiin them eg: Osama, Baghdadi all are pure bred wahhabis who were kicked out from their own homeland for showing their wahhabiness by opposing the saudi\iraqi regime. The saudi regime was also the result of wahhabi successes but they soon could not sustain the strong wahhabi current and is actually drifting away from pure bred wahhabism which is why the puritan wahhabis are hell bent on reforming the "already reformed" saudi kingship. This is exactly the case here the udaipuriyas have adopted this same wahhabi standard of going against the rightful leader i.e the daee. And if you see even the messages of GM he also is covertly actually spreading puritan wahhabi ideology by criticizing the saudis which are already criticized by groups like ISIS and alqaeda (ISIS calls saudi regime murtad(Apostate)). Hence I request the forum mumineen to recognize the true nature of wahhabism which is opposition to cherished tradition and cultures. Wahhabis cite Quran \hadith to show that our culture is wrong , they may be right in this but for us our culture and traditions are supreme. Both Quran and Hadith were tampered by the awwal saani.. The real Islam is none other than the one of Muffadal Mola TUS.