Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

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feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#31

Unread post by feelgud » Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:11 pm

Riba is strictly prohibited in Quran.

Will you give some more details abt Hazrat Abuzar ghaffari's conversation.

accountability
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#32

Unread post by accountability » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:04 pm

018.020 SHAKIR: For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.

2000-FEB: United Arab Emirates: Kartini binti Karim, (a.k.a. Ms. Karteen Karikanderan), an unmarried citizen of Indonesia, was working as a housemaid in the United Arab Emirates when her pregnancy was detected. She and a man -- a citizen of India -- were charged with adultery. She was convicted; he fled the country before he could be arrested. She was placed on trial without a lawyer or a translator, "...alone and equipped with barely any word of the local language," . She was not told that she had a right to communicate with her embassy. Her embassy was not informed in advance of the trial. Under the UAE's form of Sharia, she was sentenced to death by stoning. The Indonesian government hired a lawyer and translator to appeal her case. 3 On APR-25, the appeals court reduced her sentence to one year in prison, followed by deportation.

The above is a trial taken place just recently.

Let me help understand adultery. A man and woman having sex without marriage. A man buys a woman in a bazar, have sex with her without (or with) her consent, is not considered adultery.As it is allowed to have sex with concibines.

A couple man and woman due to a realtionship, which has not translated into marriage indulges in intimacy. That is adultery. Did I understand it correctly.

anajmi
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:38 am

accty,
It is a known fact, that Prophet married 13 times, his apostles married dozens of times, they had more than one women at one time.
Kindly provide your source for the above information where you mention that the prophet's apostles married dozens of times. Names of the apostles who married dozens of times would be needed.

anajmi
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#34

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:41 am

accty,
Let me help understand adultery. A man and woman having sex without marriage. A man buys a woman in a bazar, have sex with her without (or with) her consent, is not considered adultery.As it is allowed to have sex with concibines.
Can you also provide the quranic ayahs to support the above claim? If you can, then do you believe in those ayahs or no? If you do not, then do you accept the fact that you are a kafir? If you do believe in them, then I don't think you should be asking this question to feelgud. The source of the quran should be the one to be asked about them.

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#35

Unread post by feelgud » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:31 am

Originally posted by accountability:
018.020 SHAKIR: For surely if they prevail against you they would stone you to death or force you back to their religion, and then you will never succeed.

----------
This is about ashab e kahf.They fear that if they return to the the city they would be stoned to death by non believers .

I said stoned to death in terms of Rajam,this punishment for adultry is nowhere mentioned in Quran.This will be in the context we're discussing.The link is also given in the same post,plz check.

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#36

Unread post by feelgud » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:24 am

accty,
"Quran revealed to Muhammad over a period of twenty-three years[3] until his death."
--
This information should be enough to reply all your questions.(tabsheer al aqdam)

There was also a time when muslims including prophet prayed facing jeruslam.can you use this for your arguements.

For wine and gambling,see the commands and their orders coming to prohibition at last:

2:219 They ask thee concerning WINE and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit."

4:43 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say

5:90 O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper.

5:91 Satan's plan is (but) to excite enmity and hatred between you, with intoxicants and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah, and from prayer: will ye not then abstain?

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#37

Unread post by feelgud » Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:35 am

regarding UAE incident,I dont have to say more but let me quote Jesus(may Allah please with him):

" you filter out the mosquito and swallow the camel"

accountability
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#38

Unread post by accountability » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:09 am

feelgud: you did reply my question, I would appreciate if you reply, it will help me understand your views clearly.

Morever, I do not understand one thing, why is there so much ado about a set of penal codes, which have never been put into practice in history. I did not find any instance in prophet's period of any such conviction.

I am not a doctor, but feelgud the amputation has to be carried out by a surgeon, if you chop off the hand, it will result in almost sure death of the person, because there is no way that bleeding could be stopped if it chopped.
I discussed this with surgeon Sikander, who was in Jinnah hospital karachi, he was the one who described to me in detail the procedure. If you may, please ask a surgeon, if chopping off hand will not result in death.

Sharia is not only penal codes, it is a compassionate way of life, which has repentance,which has hear and soul boht. why dont we define sharia as living a compassionate life, like prophet did, insteading of emphasising on just the penal code.

anajmi
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:52 am

accty,

You did not reply to my question. Let me repeat.
You said in an earlier post
It is a known fact, that Prophet married 13 times, his apostles married dozens of times, they had more than one women at one time.
Kindly provide your source for the above information where you mention that the prophet's apostles married dozens of times. Names of the apostles who married dozens of times would be needed. Since you claim it to be a known fact, it should be easy to provide the references.

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#40

Unread post by feelgud » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:23 am

Originally posted by accountability:

A couple man and woman due to a realtionship, which has not translated into marriage indulges in intimacy. That is adultery. Did I understand it correctly.[/QB]
It is not allowed to have sexual relation with any male/female except in between wife and husband.

The relation of wife and husband is based on a contract called" NIKAH".

The Qur'an says that the contract of Nikah (marriage) should be undertaken in the manner that is recognized, supported and followed by the honorable and noble people of a society (see: Al-Baqarah 2: 232).

In the light of the guidance provided by the Qur'an , it may be said that a nikah, to be valid, must fulfill two necessary conditions; firstly, it must entail the free consent of both the male and the female entering into this contract; secondly, it (the contract) must not be kept hidden and should be declared in the society.

The first condition is quite obvious. It is the very spirit of every contract that it should be based on the free consent of all the parties entering into that contract. Any contract, which is not based on the free consent of the parties concerned is void in the eyes of the law.

Furthermore, because nikah (marriage) is a social contract, it must, therefore, be declared and recognized in the society. It is basically this social recognition, which nikah provides to the mutual bond between a male and a female who may otherwise be unrelated to each other. If you look closely at the marital relationship between a man and a woman, you shall see that the only difference it has when it is compared to a sexual relationship between a man and a woman who are not married to each other is that the latter is not recognized by the society to be any relationship at all. Every social relationship, by its very nature, gives all the parties in such a relationship some rights on the others and imposes on them some duties toward others. A nikah is basically a social declaration by both the parties of the intent of fulfilling all the rights and duties that arise out of wedlock. If any nikah fails to fulfill this condition of social declaration, it can then, by no means, be termed as a nikah. It would be given the same status as a relationship between a male and a female living together without entering into the contract of marriage.

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#41

Unread post by feelgud » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:30 am

THEFT:
As we know, Islam emphasizes the individual's safety with regard to his life, property, and honor. Any threat to these three entities is severely punished by Islam. A person who kills another or robs him is severely punished because this is the only way to guarantee security for every individual.

Concerning theft, Islam legislates cutting the thief's hand off as a maximum punishment and under certain conditions.The judge decides the seriousness of the case and decides if the thief should get the maximum penalty or not according to certain conditions and restrictions.

When a person knows that he will lose his hand if he uses it in stealing, this makes stealing a rare possibility. The implication of such a punishment is this: each organ in the body must be used cleanly, honorably, and legally. The function of the hand is not stealing. If the hand is used to threaten other people, it is a dangerous hand and the judge is entitled to reconsider its existence.

The other implication of cutting the hand off is to give the thief and other people a permanent example and a continuous reminder of the fate of thieves. In countries that merely imprison the thief, the thief himself may steal again after being released from prison.

When the Muslim state was stricken by famine, Caliph Umar suspended the enforcement of punishment for theft. The servants of the son of Hatib ibn Abu Baltt'ah stole a camel which belonged to a man of the tribe of Muzaynah. When they were proven guilty, Umar ordered their hands to be cut off. However, on learning that their master kept them hungry, Umar stopped the enforcement of this punishment. He further punished their master, imposing on him a fine equivalent to the price of two camels. It is within this context that we should view the punishments imposed by Islam as a part of comprehensive system which provides guarantees for all. We cannot properly understand the wisdom behind a particular point of detail in Islam unless we understand the nature of this system, its basic principles and its guarantees.

Moreover, details of the Islamic system should not be implemented in isolation to the rest of the system. We cannot simply take one legal provision or one principle of Islam and try to implement it in a social setup which is not Islamic. Such an attempt is useless, nor can such an action be considered an implementation of Islam.

(Crime and Punishment in Islam )

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#42

Unread post by feelgud » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:39 am

Originally posted by accountability:

I am not a doctor, but feelgud the amputation has to be carried out by a surgeon, if you chop off the hand, it will result in almost sure death of the person,....
My part of the story is more horrible.
A family who collected his entire life's saving for her daughter's marriage, was stolen by a theif just one week before the happiest day in their life. The father of the girl died of heart attack today morning and mother is in ICU . The girl is an orphan now.

me lord!!!plz see the case

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#43

Unread post by feelgud » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:56 am

Originally posted by accountability:

Morever, I do not understand one thing, why is there so much ado about a set of penal codes, which have never been put into practice in history. I did not find any instance in prophet's period of any such conviction.

The canvas is very big ,accty.

In prophet's period the source of Law himself was among the people.After his demise people collected what he practiced or ordered in certain situations.Later fiqh scholars codified them accordingly.It is important to know thatThese codes we see today were written when muslims were in power.Thatswhy we find a classification of dar ul harab and dar ul islam and the laws made suited to those political conditions.
In modern times,the states are independent of the religious prosecution and freedom is given to practice any religion.

This is the new system which requires ijtehaad to answer the questions faced by people living neither in dar ul islam or dar ul harab but in dar ud dawah.

The traditionalist as obvious is opposing any thing new ,but the ball has started rolling now and you can feel it .

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#44

Unread post by feelgud » Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:27 pm

Islam's Tolerance for Prisoners of War and Intolerance of Rape
...
In fact according their beliefs as freethinkers or rationalists or pure secularists rape should not only be permitted but encouraged. They only recognise the material world, the confine to using their reason with what they perceive with their senses (empirical evidence), therefore their values must emanate from the observation of the natural world around them. There should be no concept of morality which has a metaphysical context and root. If we look at the environment around us, observe nature, the male species fights for the female, and wins the right by the use of force. Their scientific mentor, Charles Darwin, also made the same observation of the “survival of the fittest” (natural selection) which formed the basis for his theory of evolution.

Accordingly, the strongest man should have the right to spread his seeds, even by force: otherwise the gene pool gets contaminated by the genes of the weaker males. Hence, rape should be seen as a necessary measure to ensure the survival of the fittest species, allowing human beings to reach to a higher level with the strongest genes. To maintain healthy pool of genes, inferior races should be eliminated. There should be no scope for the subjective and religious notions of morality where rape is concerned. Even their economic paradigm of the free-market functions on this principle of: “survival of the fittest”, so why should this not also apply in social relationships, particularly with reproduction.
........

accountability
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#45

Unread post by accountability » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:17 pm

each organ in the body must be used cleanly, honorably, and legally. The function of the hand is not stealing.
Do you really believe this analogy. This quote is the hype of hyppthesis, very much lacking any logic or wisdom. The author just tried to make sense of a sensless situation.
family who collected his entire life's saving for her daughter's marriage, was stolen by a theif just one week before the happiest day in their life. The father of the girl died of heart attack today morning and mother is in ICU . The girl is an orphan now.
My part was not a story, it was an authentic veiw of a professional qualified surgeon. You may have the independent opinion from any other sugeon.

Posted by anajmi:
Kindly provide your source for the above information where you mention that the prophet's apostles married dozens of times. Names of the apostles who married dozens of times would be needed. Since you claim it to be a known fact, it should be easy to provide the references.
Anajmi: I said "apostles" married "dozens" of times. Prophet's four closest apostles did mary cumulatively more than dozen times.

accountability
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#46

Unread post by accountability » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:28 pm

Feelgud: I wish you had answered my previous question.

Anyways, I am all ears for your analysis, how can we implement sharia penal codes, what should be the criterea, how much discretion the judge will have. descretionary powers are or may be used for personal means. What does the present penal code lack, can the present penal code be renamed as sahria.

Was Hazrat Umer right in suspending the punishment of hand chopping. If that was the neccesity of the time, can we also suspend more penalties according to our time requirement.

anajmi
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#47

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:01 am

accty,
Anajmi: I said "apostles" married "dozens" of times. Prophet's four closest apostles did mary cumulatively more than dozen times.
Very smart. So if I were to count more than a hundred of the prophets married sahabas, I can say that the prophet's sahabas married hundreds of times, right?

If I hadn't caught you over there you would've managed to propagate a lie about the prophet and his sahabas to the casual eye. Desist from such falsehood if you fear punishment in hell-fire.

feelgud,

I like your posts and I would want you to keep posting, but there is no need to go into explanations that you might hope will satisfy accountability because he doesn't care for your explanations. He is here only to mislead. Ask him for evidence and see him prove his ability to manipulate the english language as seen above.

Average Bohra
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#48

Unread post by Average Bohra » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:41 am

Originally posted by anajmi:
Very smart. So if I were to count more than a hundred of the prophets married sahabas, I can say that the prophet's sahabas married hundreds of times, right?
Not very smart at all, as you have an innate inability to process logic. The prophet married several times and so did the apostles, so his statement is a fact. If you, MF and Good Feelings each marry several times, the person you marry still may only be married once.

So the converse is not true.

anajmi
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#49

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:52 am

Average Moron,

You are right, the logic that you and accty can come up with is actually impossible for me to process, so I will not waste my time trying.

feelgud
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Re: Marrying the Wives of Adopted Sons

#50

Unread post by feelgud » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:18 am

Originally posted by accountability:
Feelgud: I wish you had answered my previous question.

Anyways, I am all ears for your analysis, how can we implement sharia penal codes, what should be the criterea, how much discretion the judge will have. descretionary powers are or may be used for personal means. What does the present penal code lack, can the present penal code be renamed as sahria.

Was Hazrat Umer right in suspending the punishment of hand chopping. If that was the neccesity of the time, can we also suspend more penalties according to our time requirement.
The complete answer requires a book.
Below are the references I quote for my answers,

plz find here :
page 277
http://www.ghamidi.org/Books/Ghamidi/Bk_Mizan.pdf

and,
page 131
http://www.ghamidi.org/Books/Ghamidi/Bk_burhan.pdf