He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

Given modern distractions, the need to understand Islam better has never been more urgent. Through this forum we can share ideas and hopefully promote the true spirit of Islam which calls for peace, justice, tolerance, inclusiveness and diversity.
Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#31

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:32 pm

Humsafar wrote:
Fatwa Banker wrote:Sudanese and Rwandan genocides would only matter if the "imperialists" waged wars to stop them....
Good you mentioned these two countries! Care to wonder why imperialists did not contemplate "humanitarian" intervention in Rawanda and Darfur? Let me help you. Because there was no profit to be made from these basket cases. If only they had oil or were of some geopolitical value imperialists would be all over the place "saving people" and thumping human rights.
That has already been established, repeatedly. My point again is about your selective outrage, hypocrisy and double-standards. I mean, no one is even worried about where the Sudanese and Rwandan leaders bank for crying out loud ! :P

anajmi
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#32

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:36 pm

fa_t,

Shouldn't you be worried about the selective outrage, hypocrisy and double standards in your own backyard? Oh wait! That it exists has already been established. So no use discussing it right?

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#33

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:16 pm

FB, so then we consider it established that US imperialism only cares about profits and power? That it "saves people" generally by killing them? That all the hand-wringing about human rights and democracy is so much noise?

Ok, now that the basic truth is established, let's move on to our selective outrage, hypocrisy and double standards. Every time US imperialists intervene in a country they invariably make the situation worse than it was before. The history of US interventions - covert, overt and current - have shown us this. We know what imperialists will do to that country. Bomb it to stone age. Hence the outrage, which in your limited wisdom deride as "selective". And in cases where you don't see our outrage, you can be sure that imperialists are not aggravating the situation. It is not that we are not disturbed it's just that we are not - and neither are you - obliged to register outrage at every atrocity that takes place in the world.

Now, should we talk about your "selective" outrage, hypocrisy and double standards?

Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#34

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:27 pm

My purpose was to illustrate the selective outrage and expose the hypocrisy which I have done.
Every time US imperialists intervene in a country they invariably make the situation worse than it was before.
Here you go painting with a broad brush again as a bulk of the US "intervention" is financial assistance and aid. The Americans continue to be the most charitable and giving people bar none. Your bias blinds your intellect.

anajmi
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#35

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:07 am

There is no selective outrage or hypocrisy. I condemn every war that America has fought and killed innocents under the guise of spreading freedom and democracy. What you have shown is your own coward ass.
The Americans continue to be the most charitable and giving people bar none.
The Americans are also the biggest arms dealers in the world. If it weren't for American arms, more than half the blood shed around the world wouldn't exist and hence the need for charity in those regions.

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#36

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:33 am

Fatwa Banker wrote:My purpose was to illustrate the selective outrage and expose the hypocrisy which I have done.
So you must be feeling mighty pleased with your achievement. Good for you. But you forgot that in the process, we also established that US is an imperialist power that visits destruction and mayhem on countries and people for reasons of economic and political gain. The next time the US talks about "saving people", I'm hoping a not-so selective shudder will run down your spine.
Fatwa Banker wrote:Here you go painting with a broad brush again as a bulk of the US "intervention" is financial assistance and aid. The Americans continue to be the most charitable and giving people bar none. Your bias blinds your intellect.
That is very true. The American people are most generous and charitable. Unfortunately, they are also the most ignorant and misinformed about what their ruling classes do in their name. I didn't know you would be so naive as to cite American "financial aid" as a proof of American charity and altruism. What it gives as "financial aid" is a minuscule fraction of what it steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trickery. If you investigate closely, the majority of "financial aid" comes with strings attached and miraculously ends up in the pockets of US corporations.

Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#37

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:35 pm

How naive you are ! All financial aid benefits a business ultimately, so what is your point, don't give it ? What causes you so much discomfort about a business making money ? What is your beef with economic prosperity ? Are you unemployable ? Denied a visa ? You appear to be fairly bright, why is comprehension of basic economic principles so difficult for you ?
what it steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trickery
That is your biased opinion and devoid of facts, unless you care to back it up with examples.
The American people are most generous and charitable. Unfortunately, they are also the most ignorant and misinformed
The ignorant and misinformed have also created an economic, democratic, charitable and educational power house that is the envy of people the world over, especially you.

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#38

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:30 pm

Fatwa Banker wrote:How naive you are ! All financial aid benefits a business ultimately...
So you were just pulling wool over our eyes with the canard that Americans are most generous and blah balh blah!!!
Fatwa Banker wrote:What causes you so much discomfort about a business making money ? What is your beef with economic prosperity ? Are you unemployable ? Denied a visa ? You appear to be fairly bright, why is comprehension of basic economic principles so difficult for you ?
So, you pin it down to personal grievance, huh? Nothing more logical to say in your defence? Besides, here you're shifting gears to "business making money" and "economic prosperity"? These are not under discussion. But if you insist, no I've nothing against them. My only beef is that US imperialists mask the pursuit of economic and political power under the rhetoric of "saving people", human rights and spreading democracy. And we have established already that the US is an imperial power. Remember, the Brits did the same under the guise of spreading civilisation?
Fatwa Banker wrote:That is your biased opinion and devoid of facts, unless you care to back it up with examples.
Just read the history of United States, starting from the genocide of native Americans. Through occupations, military power, trade agreements, IMF/World Bank, council of foreign relations, economic hit men, CIA, NSA and various other instruments it achieves what it must as an imperial power.
Fatwa Banker wrote:The ignorant and misinformed have also created an economic, democratic, charitable and educational power house that is the envy of people the world over, especially you.
"Especially you". Another personal and non squitur attack!!! Yes, there's a lot about America that I envy but not its imperialist and fascist system through which it achieves its prosperity.

anajmi
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#39

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:39 pm

All financial aid benefits a business ultimately, so what is your point, don't give it ?
All war ultimately benefits arms manufacturers, so what is your point, not have it?
All grabbing of land ultimately benefits the agressor, so what is your point, not grab it?
All stealing of oil ultimately benefits the oil companies, so what is your point, not steal it?

fa_t at his best!!!

Aarif
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#40

Unread post by Aarif » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:41 pm

FB,

Right now you guys should leave these third world muslim countries to their fate. The most important thing that you need to worry about is China. The Chinese are literally kicking your ass. How about spreading some freedom and democracy in China? How about finding some Chinese terrorists on US soil? But unfortunately you cannot do that because China has become too powerful. You do that with the Chinese and they will rip you into pieces. Recenty when Obama went to Asia the Chinese did not even allow him to meet Dalai-lama. They are calling shots these days. My point is to the best of my knowledge your country of the brave and the free is full of cowards whose only job is harass the helpless arab countries and support the rabbied dog Israel. Even China is a communist country. Do you have the balls to go to China and spread some democracy. Obviously you don't.. What can one expect from a bunch of yellow bellies and cowards...

BTW: You guys remind me of that famous bollywood dialogue which says "Tum log auraton se thode jyaada hon aur Mardon se thode kum" :mrgreen:

Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#41

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:48 pm

Humsafar wrote:So you were just pulling wool over our eyes with the canard that Americans are most generous and blah balh blah!!!
Didn't think I would have to get down to basics but here goes....If I give a panhandler 10 bucks he will go buy something with it such as food (Kraft foods will benefit), Beer (Budweiser), Cigarettes (Phillip Morris) get the picture ? No need to "investigate" ! You say I have ulterior motives other than generosity because business benefits. Absolutely ludicrous...
the Brits did the same under the guise of spreading civilisation?
As a student of history I shouldn't have to tell you that there is a vast difference between the British colonization ("sun never sets on the British empire") of old, and misguided US wars that leave a base behind while under incessant domestic pressure to get the hell out.
here you're shifting gears to "business making money" and "economic prosperity"? These are not under discussion. But if you insist, no I've nothing against them.
You kidding me ? There is documented evidence otherwise. If you are indeed not, then it is personal ! ...or a canard perhaps ? :wink:

I am still waiting on what the US steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trick

Care to back that up ?

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#42

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:50 am

FB, you're going all over the place. Let me reiterate what we have established so far:
1) That the US is an imperial power - and like all imperial powers is in the business of economic and political domination.
2) That it uses ruses like "saving people", democracy and human rights as a cover to gain economic and political benefit.
3) That even when the US is doing charity, it is doing business.

If you're perceptive enough to understand the import of above conclusions you will be able to understand every selective outrage and allegation we make against the US.

Aarif
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#43

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:48 am

I am still waiting on what the US steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trick
The US does not have to steal anything because after they go on a rampage actually nothing is left to steal. The real benefits come to US from war business. US is not run by financial institutions or banks or even the government. It is run by arms industry. Isn't it obvious that the biggest arms dealer in the world would benefit maximum from war business? And if there are no wars what the hell! we will create one. Have you ever heard of that myth about chemical weapons of mass destruction in Iraq? Oh how I wish someday you guys actually find them fully activated and located exactly below your cowardly asses.
BTW: How about making a biggest business decision of the century? How about going to China to spread some freedom and democracy? :wink:

Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#44

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:22 pm

Humsafar,

That has not been established in its entirety and an extrapolation on your part based on your bias and personal opinions. You are not backing up your opinion with facts and I have given you many chances to do so. If you repeat it enough, it does not make it true. You are not giving me any facts to respond to and I am not here to change your opinions, that would be a waste of time.

Aarif
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#45

Unread post by Aarif » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:46 pm

You are not backing up your opinion with facts
The current state of Iraq is a shining example of a fact that you are looking for. Today the Iraqi infrastructure is in ruins, there sewage system is destroyed which was one of the best in Asia, their health services are worst. Today there are more children dying of poverty and desease in Iraq than ever before. The once prosporous country has been reduced to rubble by the US war mongerers. In your zeal to prove your point you are ignoring what is so obvious to the whole world. If America ONLY fought wars to save humanity and freedom Bush would not have become one of the most hated presidents in the history of United States and Obama would not have mentioned in his opening speech as a President that US should leave Iraq and its resources to its people who are the rightful owners. US lost one billion everyday on war in Iraq and the prime benefactors from this war were US companies like Haliburton, Khaki and others. These are the companies that are in the business of war. And the government needs them to run the country. So the more wars US fights the more business these companies will get.

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#46

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:40 pm

FB, let me recap our conversation.

I said this:
Humsafar wrote:Good you mentioned these two countries! Care to wonder why imperialists did not contemplate "humanitarian" intervention in Rawanda and Darfur? Let me help you. Because there was no profit to be made from these basket cases. If only they had oil or were of some geopolitical value imperialists would be all over the place "saving people" and thumping human rights.
You said this (and notice the word "repeatedly"):
Fatwa Banker wrote:That has already been established, repeatedly.
This establishes the following two points I mentioned:
1) That the US is an imperial power - and like all imperial powers is in the business of economic and political domination.
2) That it uses ruses like "saving people", democracy and human rights as a cover to gain economic and political benefit.


You said this:
Fatwa Banker wrote:Here you go painting with a broad brush again as a bulk of the US "intervention" is financial assistance and aid. The Americans continue to be the most charitable and giving people bar none. Your bias blinds your intellect.
I said this:
Humsafar wrote:If you investigate closely, the majority of "financial aid" comes with strings attached and miraculously ends up in the pockets of US corporations.
You said this:
Fatwa Banker wrote:How naive you are ! All financial aid benefits a business ultimately, so what is your point, don't give it ?
This establishes my last point, namely:

3) That even when the US is doing charity, it is doing business.

These are the principles on which imperial powers operate. And they use all means available - force, theft, trickery - to gain economic and political advantage. These are historical facts, not my opinions. I also do not want to change your opinion. I'm just pointing to facts. As Arif said, just look at the example of Iraq - that is a text book case of how an imperial power operates and how it uses every trick in the bag to get what it wants.

anajmi
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#47

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:09 pm


Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#48

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:16 pm

You mean you just figured this out after reading this article ?

Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#49

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:55 pm

Humsafar wrote:This establishes the following two points I mentioned:
1) That the US is an imperial power - and like all imperial powers is in the business of economic and political domination.
Correct, and this is not unique to the US. All countries / political systems are in this business. Those who have power (such as the US) are more effective at it.
2) That it uses ruses like "saving people", democracy and human rights as a cover to gain economic and political benefit.
That is your extrapolation; it is situational not Gospel. Other than wars, the US and others (primarily the West) do engage in "saving people" through humanitarian efforts and aid (which you classify as "business"). I repeat, here you go painting with a broad brush again as a bulk of the US "intervention" is financial assistance and aid. The Americans continue to be the most charitable and giving people bar none. Your bias blinds your intellect
This establishes my last point, namely:

3) That even when the US is doing charity, it is doing business.
That is your point and it is asinine. I thought you had nothing against business :wink: and now you want to end charity because it eventually benefits some business somewhere !

You are going in circles here and dodging my question. For the last time,

You said
Humsafar wrote:What it gives as "financial aid" is a minuscule fraction of what it steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trickery.
..and I said
I am still waiting on what the US steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trick

Care to back that up ?

anajmi
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:29 am

You mean you just figured this out after reading this article ?
After reading all my posts, you still think I just figured it out? I was trying to point out the flatulance of Bill O'Reilly. He is nothing but another fa_t like you. You seriously think he is that stupid? Ofcourse he is not. But he pretends to be because he is not on an anonymous forum like you are. He defends American imperialism around the world as noble but to accept that it is America that is responsible for any global crisis currently happening, would be suicidal for his career.

Aarif
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#51

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:28 pm

am still waiting on what the US steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trick
Care to back that up ?
Can you please enlighten us with the real reasons why US invaded Iraq? Protecting your masters so desperately inspite of obvious available facts is making you look like an abde who believes that whatever Syedna does has some hidden taawil behind it for the benefit of Mumineen. :mrgreen:

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#52

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:06 pm

FB, You're right, all countries in theory are in the business of maximising their profit and power, but the only difference is that the US is an imperial power. As an empire it has been for the last 100 years (at least) invading and dominating countries with impunity. You can call it as being "more effective" - which I must say is a new way of looking at murder and mayhem - but for the victims it is nothing more than an exercise of naked power. And even that characterisation would be fine, really (because that's how empires are expected to behave), if only the Empire would not routinely wrap its ambition and action in the blather of nobility, righteousness and human rights etc. The whole world (including many aware Americans) can see through the hypocrisy and double standards of the US except for those who are weaned on the propaganda of American exceptionalism.

About charity and business, you've distorted my point. I do not want to end charity because it benefits business, all I'm trying to point out is that there would be no charity if there was no money to be made. So don't try to present a business transaction as charity or generosity. It's the deception I'm critical of, not of charity or business per se.

You insist that I show how the US uses trickery, force and thievery to get what it wants. Here it goes, then.
Take Iraq as a case in point:
Trickery and lies:
Building the case to invade Iraq by:
:arrow: Charging that Saddam has WMD and that spectacularly ridiculous presentation by Powell at the UN
:arrow: Linking Saddam to al Qaeda
In both cases the White House was lying, it knew there was no truth to these charges - and later reports and findings prove that.

Force
The shock and awe invasion of a country which had been already starved and bombed for previous 12 years. Much has been written and documented about the illegality and immorality of this invasion. But for shills like you, the only problem with the whole enterprise is that it "failed" to be a text-book case.

Thievery
Once the country is nicely destroyed and occupied, the vultures move in - the Carlyles and Haliburtons and all the rest to make deals on oil, on reconstruction etc to rob the country and its people blind.

Of course, this is just one case and that too a quick sketch, it does not cover the whole gamut of ways and means the Empire employs to subject the world to its will. To learn that you'll have to open your mind, and perhaps read people other than Tom Friedman, Arthur Schlesinger and the like.

I don't think I've anything more to say on this subject

Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#53

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:24 pm

Humsafar wrote:You insist that I show how the US uses trickery, force and thievery to get what it wants.
That was not my question. I asked what it "steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries " and you moonwalked around it.

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#54

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:45 pm

Their wealth and resources.

Aarif
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#55

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:59 pm

Excellent sumup Humsafar.. Just to add to that sometime back Tony Blair, the US stooge appeared on a BBC show called "HardTalk" and the interviewer literally ripped him off on Iraq topic. He could not answer a single question confidently about the reasons why he supported US in its invasion against Iraq. Finally the interviewer made him feel real guilty by asking him why he has donated all his earnings from a book that he has authored to Iraq? The interviewer was actually trying to make him say that "I feel guilty about the inhuman crimes that I have done against the people of Iraq and this is a small way to repent it". Even though Tony Blair did not admit this openly his body language was quite clear.

Aarif
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#56

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:01 pm

am still waiting on what the US steals, grabs and wheedles out other countries through force, stealth and trick
Care to back that up ?
Can you please enlighten us with the real reasons why US invaded Iraq? Protecting your masters so desperately inspite of obvious available facts is making you look like an abde who believes that whatever Syedna does has some hidden taawil behind it for the benefit of Mumineen. :mrgreen:

Fatwa Banker
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#57

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:06 pm

Humsafar wrote:Their wealth and resources.
Rather lame .... You are buying into the media hype without ever trying to question exactly what it is that they are stealing. Hopefully, I have made you stop and think about it and you will refrain from parroting what you read unless you can back it up.

Aarif
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#58

Unread post by Aarif » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Since, Humsafar is lying can you please enlighten us with the real reasons why US invaded Iraq?

Humsafar
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#59

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:25 pm

FB, an empire is interested in profit and power. The Iraq invasion serves both aims very well.

Arif, he won't tell you. It's taawil nu bayan. :)

ghulam muhammed
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Re: He may be a dictator but he's OUR dictator !

#60

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:20 pm

Middle East: Revolutions & Propaganda

Once again, it is necessary to review a timeline to definitively establish the premeditated, Western-backed nature of the current "revolutionary" conflagration consuming the Middle East and Northern Africa.

Egypt

2000: US-funded and trained Otpor in Serbia overthrows Slobodan Milosevic.
2002: Otpor starts hosting Georgian and Ukranian protesters for preparation of "Rose Revolution" and "Orange Revolution."
2003: Otpor travels to Zimbabwe to train protesters. Srdja Popovic decides to found CANVAS
2008: Egyptian April 6 Movement leaders attend US State Department summit in NYC.
2009: April 6 Movement attends training in Serbia under CANVAS. CANVAS also trains Tunisian protesters.
2010: February, April 6 Movement meets US International Crisis Group trustee Mohamed ElBaradei at Cario's airport. With Google exec Wael Ghonim, they begin conducting ElBaradei's presidential campaign and organizing protests on behalf of ElBaradei's "National Front for Change" for the next year.
2011: January-February April 6, Mohamed ElBaradei, the National Front for Change, assist in the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak.
2011: February, George Soros funded NGOs begin submitting draft constitutions for Egypt's new government.

Libya

1980's: US-CIA backed National Front for the Salvation of Libya (NFSL) made multiple attempts to assassinate Qaddafi and initiate armed rebellion throughout Libya.
2005: NFSL's Ibrahim Sahad founds the National Conference of Libyan Opposition (NCLO) in London England.
2011: Early February, the London based NCLO calls for a Libyan "Day of Rage," beginning the "February 17th revolution."
2011: Late February NFSL/NCLO's Ibrahim Sahad is leading opposition rhetoric, literally in front of the White House in Washington D.C. Calls for no-fly zone in reaction to unsubstantiated accusations Qaddafi is strafing "unarmed protesters" with warplanes.
2011: Late February Senators Lieberman and McCain and UK PM David Cameron call for providing air cover for Libyan rebels as well as providing them additional arms.
2011: Early March; it is revealed UK SAS special forces are already operating inside Libya.

Fully realizing US or Israeli support for ElBaradei would destroy any chance for the "revolution's" success, it appears that the cartoonish act of overtly, even oafishly supporting Mubarak in the early stages of the unrest was a deliberate attempt to shift the ire of the Egyptian people toward him, and their suspicions away from globalist stooge ElBaradei.

We now see a similar campaign unfolding in Libya against Qaddafi, with rumors once again circulating that Israel is trying to save the embattled regime by hiring mercenaries, and even claims being made that Qaddafi is Jewish. Mirroring the cartoonish propaganda aimed at galvanizing Mubarak's opposition, we should be careful while interpreting these ambiguous and perfectly timed "revelations" regarding Libya's Qaddafi.

It is often said, the first causality of war is the truth. There certainly is a war raging in Libya and one of the many weapons being deployed is deception, as it has been even as Sun Tzu first wrote "all war is based on deception," over 2,500 years ago.

http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/ ... ganda.html