An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

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An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:46 pm

A critical edition of the Arabic text and English translation of Hamid al-Din Ahmed b. Abd Allah al-Kirmani’s “al-Masabih fi ithbat al-imama." Edited and translated by Paul E. Walker

Before I proceed, I would like to inform the readers that the translation was verified by Dawoodi Bohoras and some manuscripts were even provided by them.

Walker writes, and I quote: “Even before receiving copies from the Institute, I asked Abbas Hamadani, Professor of Islamic History at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, if he could let me have a photocopy of one of his. He readily provided this and later also a copy of second from his family collection. Prof. Hamdani has done a great deal to promote Ismaili studies over the years and I have often been the direct beneficiary of his generosity, knowledge and scholarly advice.…In addition I was able to consult Ismail K. Poonawala, Professor of Arabic at UCLA, like Abbas Hamdani an old friend who is also an expert in the subject. He most kindly offered me a photocopy of manuscript from his family’s collection.

Tahera Qutbuddin, Professor of Arabic at the University of Chicago, both answered my numerous questions and provided initial contact for me with her sister Sayfiyah Qutbuddin. Both of them are not only scholars of Ismaili history and literature but have unique access to the manuscript holdings of the Tayybi da’wa. Besides responding to my queries, they kindly checked the reading of several passages of this text in the manuscripts available to them.

We all know who these two ladies are.

The writer further writes: “The easy proliferation of copies and their accessibility is both good and bad for the recovery of al-Kirmani’s original words. The Tayyibi manuscript tradition in this case has preserved the text through an intense and continuing interest in it and what it says. Copying it again and again over 8 or 9 centuries has kept the work alive. But it has also put some limitations on what can be done with the textual evidence. Significantly none of the 13 manuscripts examined directly for the present edition indicate the exact source in front of the copyist.. And are not specified…..Above all the existing manuscripts are not old, having been produced in the 19th or 20th century.

Given that a relatively small and isolated community preserved the work under the circumstances that fostered both repeated copying and internal self correction over the generations, to expect a true stemma for the manuscript tradition is unrealistic. The oldest copies are replaced by the new ones…..

To be continued
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:31 pm

….al-Kirmani upheld a range of Shii doctrines, particularly as interpreted by the Ismailis. For him the imamate was a living institution with a visible imam. It was of paramount importance in religion and all aspects of life that required the constant attention of its supreme leader. The imam was (and is) the repository of knowledge and truth. He is the heir of the Prophet, the one who assumes the Prophet’s place, and who functions as the Prophet had in his time in leading the human community.

Kirmani writes: The immate must exist, and must continue, to ensure the proper observance of the worship of God, which is the principal duty of humankind and its path to salvation and paradise. The path consists of parallel means: one, the acquisition of knowledge and the other, the performance of works. The latter are the rites and rituals of Islam; the former is its meaning in rational terms. Both are essential; one has little value without the other.

…he moves on to the imamate and its necessity. The themes in this section are the requirement that imams have infallibility and that they have been explicitly designated by, first, God and His Prophet, and then those who precede as imams. Designation is crucial. The community cannot validly elect an imam; its choice determines nothing in that regards, and if expressed, has no meaning.

Ali b. Abi Talib was so designated by the Prophet, a point al-Kirmani attempts to prove, before he traces the line of imams from him to Jafar al-Sadiq and to the latter’s son Ismail. From there it must, he says, continue in Ismail’s progeny. Ultimately it reaches the Fatimid imams….His argument at this point is one of the most historically interesting in the work. Ismail’s imamate was valid because he produced offspring who continued the imamate;…If there were no imam now, there could not have been one in the past; if the duties of the imam are not currently fulfilled by a properly designated descendant, the ancestor cannot have been the imam.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby porus on Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:56 pm

Paul Walker's book is entitled "Master of the Age: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate".

al-Kirmani was a great Ismaili philosopher. However he was a product of his age. He wrote with confidence about the necessity of Imamat at the time of Fatimid age at its zenith, the so called golden age of the Fatimids.

However, he (al-Kirmani) is not beyond criticism. If he had been born during the summit of Prophet's mission, I imagine that he would have written a book called "al-masaabih fi ithbaat il-nubuwwa" (Illuminations from the proofs of Prophethood).

Not just nubuwwat and imamat, this sort of necessity can be proposed in every religion and every field of human enterprise. Except that, in some cases, 'illuminations' will be spread over several personalities.

I am about to write a book called "al-masaabih fi ithbaat il-ra'ees il-vilayaat il-muttahida" (Illuminations from the proofs of the President of the United States). :wink:

Seriously though, I would be interested in Paul Walker's view on the 'hidden Imams" of Bohras and Ithna-asharis. Is he trying to bolster the Imamat of Aga Khan, I wonder?

Despite cynicism of this post, I would be glad to see Hanif contribute his views on this subject. I will respond if I can.

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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:06 pm

Porus wrote: Seriously though, I would be interested in Paul Walker's view on the 'hidden Imams" of Bohras and Ithna-asharis. Is he trying to bolster the Imamat of Aga Khan, I wonder?





Hmmmm! Didn't think of that. Come to think of it, he works for IIS doesn't he? Or is he an independent writer? You are more knowledgeable. No pun intended. So do you think what he says "what Kirmani said" is wrong? Do you think he made that up or twisted the facts a bit to please the Agha? Never know. What about the living Imam in Yemen? They too have a living Imam and he is visible and is the direct descendant of Panjtan Pak.

Ithna'asheris believe in Imam Mahdi and they quote the Qur'an and say that it is in the Qur'an that Mahdi will come before the end of the world. The Bohoras believe their Imams are living and there is only one Imam at a time in Satr. He will come at a right time.

Confusion! Confusion! Thanks for your input, anyways.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby porus on Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:27 pm

porus wrote:However, he (al-Kirmani) is not beyond criticism. If he had been born during the summit of Prophet's mission, I imagine that he would have written a book called "al-masaabih fi ithbaat il-nubuwwa" (Illuminations from the proofs of Prophethood).


And if he had been born in our own time, I imagine he would write a book called "al-masaabih fi ithbaat il-da'awa" (Illuminations from the proofs of Daawat). :wink:

So, we have three 'waajib al-wujood': Prophet, Imam and Dai!
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:53 pm

Porus,

Have you read the book or did you google it. FYI Walker does not work for IIS. He is an independent writer. His passion is Fatimid History and Ismaili thought. At the time he wrote the book he was a research associate in the Dept. of Near Eastern Languages and Civilization at the University of Chicago. He has written several books on Fatimid History. I have two other books by him which I have not read: Orations of the Fatimid Caliphs: Festival Sermons of the Ismaili Imams and I also saw a video on this subject. However, it was not so great;and, 2. Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani Ismaili thought in the Age of al-Hakim. I hope to read them one day.

Fatimid history is very exciting.

al-Kirmani wrote the Treatise during the time of one of the most controversial Imam's era, i.e. al-Hakim SA. Ismailism was not popular in Imam's era and it was then "Kirmani was summoned to Cairo in order to address serious dissension there on theoretical issues of doctrine, which arose in the final years of al-Hakim's reign." writes Paul Walker.
Poonawala and Walker have blamed the west, hostile Muslim sources, and crusaders for Imam's bad repute, especially in view of "burning of the Church of Holy Sepulchre and other Jewish and Christian sites.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:30 pm

Hanif
controversial Imam's era, i.e. al-Hakim SA.


To call Fatemide king al-Hakim controversial is very charitable. Ismailis wear glassis which make them see and treats even al-Hakimas wise and devine.
We Mainstream Muslims reserve SA only for Prophets,
The seal of Prophets Muhammad is adressed as SAW
Esteemed Sahabas are RA
and rest get Rh.A. (Merrcy of Allah upon them)
Since I do not consider al-Hakim RhA come anywhere near Prophet hood I will just stop at that.
Read something beside Poonawala and Walker.
Majority do not believe in Imams and Imamat.
Aga Khan is very good human being but he is not devine.
Dai of DB's and his children do Shirk everyday or make is Shameless Abdes kiss his feet and stoop in front him.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby profastian on Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:49 am

Muslim First wrote:
Hanif
controversial Imam's era, i.e. al-Hakim SA.


Aga Khan is very good human being but he is not devine.
Dai of DB's and his children do Shirk everyday or make is Shameless Abdes kiss his feet and stoop in front him.

Do you know that Islamilis do sajdas and kissing of feet too :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
What a brainless git.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:06 pm

profastian wrote:
Muslim First wrote:
Hanif
controversial Imam's era, i.e. al-Hakim SA.


Aga Khan is very good human being but he is not devine.
Dai of DB's and his children do Shirk everyday or make is Shameless Abdes kiss his feet and stoop in front him.

Do you know that Islamilis do sajdas and kissing of feet too :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
What a brainless git.

So like you they are Mushrik too :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:22 pm

Do you know that Islamilis do sajdas and kissing of feet too

What a brainless git.


Misery loves company. But not in this case. You missed the target. Ismailis don't do any such thing. Have you watched Islamic Conscience, Agha Khan and the Ismailis? I think that is the title of the CD. In the CD you see the Imam walking around and reciting blessings on the people gathered. Nobody is standing up. This was in Tajikistan. There were other scenes from Africa, India, etc. and nowhere do you see people kissing his hands and feet nor those of the previous Imam.

I only know one Ismaili family. He had lent me this CD and it can be obtained from Amazon. My friend told me that they are not even allowed to kiss the Imam's hands let alone his feet. And there is no such thing as Kadambosi.

I watched the CD couple times. I did not see anybody yelling "Maula, Maula" and rushing to touch him. When he entered everybody recited salawats the way the Ithna'Asheris do.

I think there was so much discipline and everything was done in such a peaceful way.

Growing up I had heard from my Ithna'Asheri friends who said that women bent over and laid their hair on the ground so Imam could walk on it. Another one of a fairy tale.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:16 pm

To call Fatemide king al-Hakim controversial is very charitable. Ismailis wear glassis which make them see and treats even al-Hakimas wise and devine.

We Mainstream Muslims reserve SA only for Prophets,

The seal of Prophets Muhammad is adressed as SAW

Esteemed Sahabas are RA

and rest get Rh.A. (Merrcy of Allah upon them)

Since I do not consider al-Hakim RhA come anywhere near Prophet hood I will just stop at that.

Read something beside Poonawala and Walker.

Majority do not believe in Imams and Imamat.

Aga Khan is very good human being but he is not devine.

Dai of DB's and his children do Shirk everyday or make is Shameless Abdes kiss his feet and stoop in front him.]


Imam Al-Hakim AS was controversial mostly because he destroyed the Church of Sepulchre and other Christian and Jewish sites. Western Scholars at the time gave him bad publicity.
He has since been vindicated.

Paul Walker writes "..although over the final years of his reign al-Hakim allowed many to be rebuilt, even, it is said contributing funds for the purpose. Europe remembered only the church of the Holy Sepulchre ...."

Muslims by direct contrast, at least in the popular imagination of the time, saw the policies of the Fatimid ruler as appropriate and necessary, a sign, in fact, that Muslim ruler was actively doing what he was supposed to do"
Al-Hakims policies covered many other problems including the consumption of alcohol; gambling and illicit public movement of women...He more than any of the other Fatimid Caliphs confronted social and political conditions directly and attempted to change them in conformity with his understanding of Islam.


We Mainstream Muslims reserve SA only for Prophets,


So? That is your right.

We Shias use SAW or SA after Prophets, Panjatan Pak, Imams, etc.

It is irrelevant to me what you consider Imam Al-Hakim AS to be.
In Shia’s theology there are no Esteemed Sahabas. They were all crooks. So RA is not used. Instead they recite curses.

I do not believe curses should be recited on anyone. Does that make me a lesser Shia?

I do not believe that they should be deprived of RA, so I always say, Abu-Bakar RA, etc. because I believe, they did contribute to Islam and they were companions of the prophet. The rest is between them and Allah S.W.T.

Majority do not believe in Imams or Immamat


That is their prerogative. Beliefs are not based on majority or minority.


Majority believe Bin Laden to be great! They need their heads examined.

Read something beside Poonawala and Walker.




Any suggestions?

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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:34 pm

In Shia’s theology there are no Esteemed Sahabas. They were all crooks. So RA is not used. Instead they recite curses

That is why they have degenerated into grave worshippers, chest and head beaters, feet kissers etc etc,
Ismailis of all shades even say Kaaba is at the feet of their Imam or Dai.

before you say that is not so

Read this
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... acing+kaba
kmaherali
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: Facing Kaba'a
The following anecdote quoted by Nagib in another discussion, says it all.
When I went to Karachi in 1981, I was told the following anecdote:
Mowlana Shah Karim visited the Sulan Muhammad Shah Takri in Karachi with some leaders. From the top, he asked them where is the Qaba? The leaders started looking east and west, searching for direction but could not reply.
One of the caretaker [he was from Hunza] was summoned and he was asked the same question. I felt at the feet of Hazar Imam and kissed-it. Crying loudly, he said Khudawind, here is the Qaba. Hazar Imam said, you are right.
Nagib

Any suggestions?


You can take donkey to water but cannot make it drink.
Wasalaam
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:46 pm

In Shia’s theology there are no Esteemed Sahabas. They were all crooks. So RA is not used. Instead they recite curses

That is why they have degenerated into grave worshippers, chest and head beaters, feet kissers etc etc,
Ismailis of all shades even say Kaaba is at the feet of their Imam or Dai.

before you say that is not so

Read this
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... acing+kaba
kmaherali
Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:39 am Post subject: Facing Kaba'a
The following anecdote quoted by Nagib in another discussion, says it all.
When I went to Karachi in 1981, I was told the following anecdote:
Mowlana Shah Karim visited the Sulan Muhammad Shah Takri in Karachi with some leaders. From the top, he asked them where is the Qaba? The leaders started looking east and west, searching for direction but could not reply.
One of the caretaker [he was from Hunza] was summoned and he was asked the same question. I felt at the feet of Hazar Imam and kissed-it. Crying loudly, he said Khudawind, here is the Qaba. Hazar Imam said, you are right.
Nagib


Wow! Thanks for providing the link. I have always tried to learn about the “other” Ismailis.

When I asked my Ismaili friend if he could refer me to any Ismaili site, he provided this link: Ismailimail@gmail.com and akdn.org
Neither of the sites talk about their beliefs.
Now, I did visit the site and they are very similar to the the Bohoras in their beliefs, except for that they have a living Imam and we have a Dai.

I saw one m0786 arguing with the Ismailis (was it You, sounded very much like you - m0786 even accepted that there are multiple interpretations in the Qur’an so why don’t you accord that to us too) and this is what the Admin wrote

Pluralism is the base of unity in the Umah. Any person preaching against freedom of interpretation in Islam and preaching for compulsion in one way thinking is welcomed to find some other web sites were he can preach in all freedom.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:57 pm

That is why they have degenerated into grave worshippers, chest and head beaters, feet kissers etc etc,


Now as for your accusation about “grave worshippers”. Ever watched the movie Jodha Akbar?

The emperor was a Sunni married to a Hindu who could not bear him children.

He walks bare footed in the hot desert sand to the grave of Mohinnudin Chisti and begs for a son kneeling down on the grave. He got a son. Now was that Chisti who granted him the son or Allah SWT?

Why do the Sunnis have a grave of the Prophet in the Prophet’s Masjid in Madinah. Outside the Mosque are the Asahabas. And somewhere further away from the Masjid is Janatul Baqi where the Prophet’s beloved daughter and his progeny is buried. What a difference between the upkeep of the graves!

I went to offer fateha to the grave of Hazarat Abu Bakar RA, but I could not get close to it as men were rubbing their handkerchiefs and kneeling down to the grave. They definitely were not Shias! Who were they in your opinion? There were no Askaris around either to stop them. It was Friday morning!

And what about the Kaba itself. It is stone. Both Shias and Sunnis kiss it! Is it an act of piety or Kufr?

I did kiss it. To me it was an act of piety but in your books it would Kufr. True or false.

I am responding to your post in bits and pieces because I am new on this forum and am having problems editing. the cursor flies all over the place. any suggestions? Have written to the Admin. But can anybody else help?
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:04 pm

I asked if you had any suggestions for me to read another book by a scholar and a credible writer about Al Hakim AS, since you did not like Poonawalla and Walker, instead you wrote back and said:

You can take donkey to water but cannot make it drink.


Does it mean that you have no name of a “credible writer” ?

You sound frustrated instead.

Yes, you can take a donkey to water but cannot make it drink - correct. People are not donkeys. You cannot force your opinions on anybody. People have to decide for themselves whether to drink that water or not. What if the water is polluted? That is why we have brains. Animals don’t.

That is why the noble Qur’an asks you to use your Aql.

Let people decide for themselves. No need to get frustrated.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Hanif on Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:13 pm

Brother MF,

While on your favorite site I saw these two links. Hope your Kibla is in the right direction.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/change-praye ... 872-2.html
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:02 pm

Br Hanif
AS
It looks like I p ed off you and I apologize if I offended you. Now let us start again.
Please answer two questions.

Question One: Where is the doctrine of IMAAMAT in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current IMAAM lead Shia?

Let me elaborate on each of these here:

Question One: Where is the doctrine of IMAMAT in Quran ?

This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It's importance is to the extent that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% to 85% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?

I request you ONLY give the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Please do this and you will see how helpless you become.

Question Two: How does the current Imam leads Shia?

If you are Niazari Ismaili Shia then you have no problem since you have Aga Khan to lead you to Jannah, Inshah Allah and good luck to you.

If you are Ithnashari (12ver) or Mustali Ismaili then tell me how your Imam leads you?

Please let post your response.

Wasalaam

I have read your postings and Inshah Allah I will try to respond starting with your post about Qibla direction. Inshah Allah
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:54 pm

Hanif wrote:Brother MF,
While on your favorite site I saw these two links. Hope your Kibla is in the right direction.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/change-praye ... 872-2.html

Br Hanif
AS
Let me give my understanding of your first link
We Muslims face Kaaba while we do Salah (aka Namaaz)
Perhaps Muslims who built these Masajids they could not see Haram Sharif and built structure based on poor sense of direction. Now that with the help of Survey instruments with accurate GPS, professionals Surveyors can pinpoint niche of Masjid to less than centimeter and determine direction by mathematical computations. Well these errors were discovered and made public not swept under the rug.
Same is about your second link.
Some Aga Khanis think they have been liberated from following Sharia as far as Namaaz and fasting are concerned instead they follow innovation they call Dua. Some orthodox Aga Khanis make fun of Namaaz, Fasting and Qibla direction. For them Farman of their Imam (48 and 49) trumps Qur'an and Sunnah.
Here is a web site
http://moonsighting.com/
Pull down Qibla tab and read all Items. This will give you understanding of qibla.
Please look at this link
http://moonsighting.com/qibla.html
It has a world map with counters of Qibla direction.
Please look up Indonesia and see what direction they should be praying.
Wasalaam
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:26 pm

Hanif wrote:
In Shia’s theology there are no Esteemed Sahabas. They were all crooks. So RA is not used. Instead they recite curses

Wow what a profound statement.
As they are not Esteemed and crooks then all of Ahadit they recited and were later recorded should be discarded. That also should include Hadith and accounts of Gadhir. You should not believe a single Ahadit transmitted by so called crook Sahabas.
Cursing!
Of Course you should curse these people day and night.
In fact you should climb up minaret of your Masjid with a bull horn and should curse all sahabs loudly.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:41 pm

I saw one m0786 arguing with the Ismailis (was it You, sounded very much like you - m0786 even accepted that there are multiple interpretations in the Qur’an so why don’t you accord that to us too) and this is what the Admin wrote
Pluralism is the base of unity in the Umah. Any person preaching against freedom of interpretation in Islam and preaching for compulsion in one way thinking is welcomed to find some other web sites were he can preach in all freedom.


Only Ismailis talk about Pluralism oftan.
Does it mean you abondon Namaaz, Roza and Hujj and still want to be called Myslums?

Pluralism is the base of unity in the Umah.
Did Prophet say that? Is it in Qur'an?

Any person preaching against freedom of interpretation in Islam and preaching for compulsion in one way thinking is welcomed to find some other web sites were he can preach in all freedom.
Do you own this web site?
Start your own and you can conroll all posts.
Just like sites controlled by Kothar or by Raza.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Sun Apr 22, 2012 8:59 pm

Hanif
Now as for your accusation about “grave worshippers”. Ever watched the movie Jodha Akbar?
NO
The emperor was a Sunni married to a Hindu who could not bear him children.
Din't he formed a new religion called deen e elahi?
He walks bare footed in the hot desert sand to the grave of Mohinnudin Chisti and begs for a son kneeling down on the grave. He got a son. Now was that Chisti who granted him the son or Allah SWT?
What ? I did not think you were that ignorant
He did not have to do that
He could have spread Musalla in his house prayed Namaaz of need and begged Allah SWT for a child
He got son not bacause he walked in sand, begged dead saint and a son was born but it was in his Kadr and would have happend regardless.


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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby porus on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:28 pm

Hanif wrote:He walks bare footed in the hot desert sand to the grave of Mohinnudin Chisti and begs for a son kneeling down on the grave. He got a son. Now was that Chisti who granted him the son or Allah SWT?


Allah did. Was it because he went to pay his respects to Chisti? Don't know. Cannot know. If you think so, then you are indulging in a false argument of the form "post hoc, ergo propter hoc."

Hanif wrote:Why do the Sunnis have a grave of the Prophet in the Prophet’s Masjid in Madinah.

There were no Sunnis when Prophet died. He died in Aisha's house and was buried there. Masjid next to the house was later expanded in all directions and now includes Darih of the Prophet. Expansion of the Masjid continues in our own time.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:40 pm

Hanif
Why do the Sunnis have a grave of the Prophet in the Prophet’s Masjid in Madinah.

No there were no Sunnis or Shias when 3 were burued. They were all Muslims.

No. Prophet's grave is not in Prophet’s Masjid. Prophet was buried in Bibi Aisha's qurter (room) where he died. Some of Prophet's wives lived in rooms next to Masjid. Hz Abu Bakr and Umar were also buried in same room. Bibi Aisha lived in small part of that room after prophet;s death. She granted request by her father to be buried in same room and she would not observe Hijab since dead men were het father and husband. Later she granted permission for Umar to be buried in same chanber and she would observe 'Purda' since Umar even dead was non Merham to her. There was room for one more grave and she gave permission fot Imam Hasan to be buried there but Imam Hussein decided to bury his brother elsewhere.
Later some Khalif/king built dome and walls around this chamber but it was and is not part of Masjid even now.


Outside the Mosque are the Asahabas.

NO both Abu Bakr and Umar are in the same chamber with Ptophet

And somewhere further away from the Masjid is Janatul Baqi where the Prophet’s beloved daughter and his progeny is buried.

Very few people know how graves look like inside the chamber but I bet it lloks like same as graves of Prophet’s beloved daughter and his progeny.
Please remember Prophet had no surviving Son so technically there is no progeny from his side.
Imamas were progeny of Ali and Fatema RAs.


What a difference between the upkeep of the graves!

Once ahain I bet it lloks like same as graves of Prophet’s beloved daughter and his progeny.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby humble_servant_us on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:28 am

Prophet had no surviving Son so technically there is no progeny from his side.
Imamas were progeny of Ali and Fatema RAs.


Sura 108 Aya 1 to 3
[108:1] Surely We have given you Kausar,
[108:2] Therefore pray to your Lord and make a sacrifice.
[108:3] Surely your enemy is the one who shall be without posterity.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby profastian on Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:18 am

humble_servant_us wrote:
Prophet had no surviving Son so technically there is no progeny from his side.
Imamas were progeny of Ali and Fatema RAs.

Do you know that there is no progeny from your side too. Ask your wife :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby stranger on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:34 am

profastian wrote:
humble_servant_us wrote:
Prophet had no surviving Son so technically there is no progeny from his side.
Imamas were progeny of Ali and Fatema RAs.

Do you know that there is no progeny from your side too. Ask your wife :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


lol :lol:
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby MurtazaVds on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:55 am

profastian wrote:
humble_servant_us wrote:
Prophet had no surviving Son so technically there is no progeny from his side.
Imamas were progeny of Ali and Fatema RAs.

Do you know that there is no progeny from your side too. Ask your wife :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


rofl :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby humble_servant_us on Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:45 am

Prophet(pbuh)'s progeny can never end.

Sura 108 Aya 1 to 3
[108:1] Surely We have given you Kausar,
[108:2] Therefore pray to your Lord and make a sacrifice.
[108:3] Surely your enemy is the one who shall be without posterity.
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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:21 am

humble_servant_us wrote:Prophet(pbuh)'s progeny can never end.

Sura 108 Aya 1 to 3
[108:1] Surely We have given you Kausar,
[108:2] Therefore pray to your Lord and make a sacrifice.
[108:3] Surely your enemy is the one who shall be without posterity.


Br Hus
This is one of translation, Tafseer and Sura Introduction Available on net

Asad 108:1 BEHOLD, We have bestowed upon thee good in abundance: 1
Note - 1
The term kawthar is an intensive form of the noun kathrah (Zamakhshari), which, in its turn, denotes "copiousness", "multitude" or "abundance"; it also occurs as an adjective with the same connotation (Qamus, Lisan al-'Arab, etc.). In the above context, which is the sole instance of its use in the Qur'an, al-kawthar obviously relates to the abundant bestowal on the Prophet of all that is good in an abstract, spiritual sense, like revelation, knowledge, wisdom, the doing of good works, and dignity in this world and in the hereafter (Razi); with reference to the believers in general, it evidently signifies the ability to acquire knowledge, to do good works, to be kind towards all living beings, and thus to attain to inner peace and dignity.

Asad 108:2 hence, pray unto thy Sustainer [alone], and sacrifice [unto Him alone].

Asad 108:3 Verily, he that hates thee has indeed been cut off [from all that is good]! 2
Hatred and spite are not constructive contributions to the work of this world, but its opposites. Abu Jahl and his Pagan confederates vented their personal spite and venom against the holy Prophet by taunting him with the loss of his two infant sons by Khadija, but where were these venomous detractors a few years afterwards, when the divine Light shone more brilliantly than ever? It was these that were cut off from all future hope, in this world and the next.
Part of Sura Introduction Sura 108

Before this in Surahs Ad-Duha and Alam Nashrah we have seen that when in the earliest phase of Prophethood the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) was passing through the most trying conditions when the whole nation had turned hostile, there was resistance and opposition on every side, and the Holy Prophet and a handful of his Companions did not see any remote chance of success. Allah in order to console and encourage him at that time had sent down several verses. In Surah Ad-Duha it was said: "And surely the later period (i.e. every later period) is better for you than the former period, and soon your Lord shall give you so much that you shall be well pleased". In Surah Alam Nashrah: "And We exalted your renown for you."That is, "Though the enemies are trying to defame you throughout the country, We, on the contrary, have arranged to exalt your name and fame." And: "The fact is that along with every hardship there is also ease." That is, "You should not be disheartened by the severity of conditions at this time; this period of hardships will soon pass, and the period of success and victory will follow."
Such were the conditions in which Allah by sending down Surah Al-Kauthar consoled the Holy Prophet as well as foretold the destruction of his opponents. The disbelieving Quraish said: "Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace) is cut off from his community and reduced to a powerless and helpless individual. According to Ikrimah when the Holy Prophet was appointed a Prophet, and he began to call the people to Islam, the Quraish said: "Muhammad (upon whom be Allah's peace and blessings) is cut off from his people as a tree is cut off from its root, which might fall to the ground any moment." (Ibn Jarir). Muhammad bin Ishaq says: "Whenever the Prophet (upon whom be peace) was mentioned before As bin Wa'il as-Sehmi, the chief of Makkah, he used to say: Let him alone for he is only a childless man (abtar) with no male offspring. When he dies, there will be no one to remember him." Shamir bin Atiyyah says that Uqbah bin Abi Mu'ait, also used to say similar things about the Holy Prophet, (Ibn Jarir). According to Ibn Abbas, once Ka'b bin Ashraf (the Jewish chief of Madinah) came to Makkah and the Quraish chiefs said to him: "Just see this boy, who is cut off from his people; he thinks he is superior to us, whereas we manage the Hajj, look after the Ka'bah and water the pilgrims." (Bazzar). Concerning this very incident Ikrimah reports that the Quraishhad used the words as-sunbur al-munbatir min qaumi-hi (a weak, helpless and childless man who is cut off from his people) for the Holy Prophet. (Ibn Jarir) Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Asakir have related that Hadrat Abdullah bin Abbas said; "The eldest son of the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) was Qasim; next to him was Zainab, next to her Hadrat Abdullah and next to him three daughters, viz. Umm Kulthum, Fatimah and Ruqayyah. Of them first Hadrat Qasim died and then Hadrat Abdullah. Thereupon As bin Wail said: "His line has come to an end: now he is abtar (i.e. cut off from root)." Some traditions add that As said "Muhammad is abtar: he has no son to succeed him. When he dies, his memory will perish and you will be rid of him." The tradition from Ibn Abbas, which Abd bin Humaid has related, shows that Abu Jahl also had said similar words on the death of the Holy Prophet's son, Abdullah. Ibn Abi Hatim has related on the authority of Shmir bin Atiyyah that the same kind of meanness was shown by Uqbah bin Abi Mu'ait by rejoicing at this bereavement of the Holy Prophet. Ata says that when the second son of the Holy Prophet died, his own uncle, Abu Lahab (whose house was next to his) hastened to the pagans and gave them the "good news": Batira Muhammadun al-lail:"Muhammad has become childless this night, or he is cut off from root."
Such were the disturbing conditions under which Surah Al-Kauthar was sent down. The Quraish were angry with him because he worshipped and served only Allah and repudiated their idolatry publicly. For this very reason he was deprived of the rank, esteem and honor that he enjoyed among his people before Prophethood and was now as cut off from his community. The handful of his Companions also were helpless, poor people who were being persecuted and tyrannized. Furthermore, he was bereaved by the death of two sons, one after the other, whereas the near relatives and the people of his clan, brotherhood and neighborhood were rejoicing and uttering such words as were disheartening and disturbing for a noble person who had treated even his enemies most kindly. At this Allah just in one sentence of this brief Surah gave him the good news, better news than which has never been given to any man in the world, besides the decision that it will be his opponents who will be cut off from their root and not he.

Source: Syed Abul A'ala Maududi Surah IntroductionCompiled from a First Edition, multi-volume paperback English translation of the Quran by MaulanaMaududi.

Source: http://www.alim.org/

Likes: porus

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Re: An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

Unread postby Muslim First on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:24 am

profastian wrote:
humble_servant_us wrote:
Prophet had no surviving Son so technically there is no progeny from his side.
Imamas were progeny of Ali and Fatema RAs.

Do you know that there is no progeny from your side too. Ask your wife :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Br Hus
You should respond
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