new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

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sixfeetunder
Posts: 433
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#91

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:51 am

aliabbas_aa wrote:
Muslim First wrote: 6'U, HSU, Salim,Hanif etc.

What more stuff and rituals you guys do? Since 9/10 of the rituals are probably done in secrete!
Since i was raised as bohra i never was taught this hypocritical doctrine so knew nothing about it until when i changed to Quran and sunnah ,one behind the cover shia student who showed himself as sunni propped up and started to argue with me and disclosed that he was shia. He was also trying to stealthily spread hatred of sahabah and tahreef of Quran and hadith to the gullible sunni students posing as a sunni. So he was exposed becoz of me and we had arranged some debates with him on the typical issues.And it seems now he is back to being a sunni(?) with me!
A few weeks back i met an Iranian student and he was damn serious about taqia and saw it as virtue.He justified it accusing hazrat Ali AS of doing the same.
Taqiyya and Hypocrisy are two opposite extremes. Taqiyya is concealing faith and displaying nonbelief; while Hypocrisy is the concealment of unbelief and the display of belief. They are TOTAL opposites in function, form, and meaning.

The Quran reveals the nature of hypocrisy with the following verse:

"When they meet those who believe, they say: `We Believe;' but when
they are alone with their evil ones, they say: `We are really with
you, we (were) only jesting [2:14]."


The Quran then reveals al-Taqiyya with the following verses:

"A Believer, a man from among the people of Pharaoh, who had CONCEALED
his faith, said: "Will ye slay a man because he says, `My Lord is
Allah'?....[40:28]" (Emphasis Mine.)


Also:

"Any one who, after accepting Faith in Allah, utters unbelief, EXCEPT
under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith -- but such as
open their breast to unbelief, -- on them is Wrath from Allah, and
theirs will be a dreadful Chastisement [16:106]." (Emphasis Mine.)


And also:

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather
than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left
with Allah except by way of precaution ("tat-taqooh"), that ye may
guard yourselves ("tooqatan") from them....[3:28]"


More: http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/3.html

sixfeetunder
Posts: 433
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#92

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:00 am

Muslim First wrote:
6'U wrote
Similarly, it is ignorant to say that one 'worships the alam', when one only kisses or shows respect towards it. Hope you get the point.
Even if Aalam was made from cloth of Myrters it would be Shirk to kiss it.
After all, isn't it just ink and paper
What a idiotic statement.
Why do you kiss the Quran? Don't commit shirk!!!

And isn't the Qur'an which you have with you made of ink and paper? Is it the original Qur'an which was was written on parchments, bark and leather?

So, stop making innovations in religions and stop printing Qurans. In which verse of Qur'an do you find that you should print Quran? It is an innovation!!

Hope you understand the stupidity of your arguments.

sixfeetunder
Posts: 433
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#93

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:36 am

aliabbas_aa wrote:sfu,
First You should not try to project us as haters of Ahle bayt this is a big slander which you are trying to propagandize here. We love ahlebayt as we love prophet pbuh. And we do believe in the hadith which says that one who hates his hasnain hates the prophet pbuh. So please dont try to project as haters of ahlebayt. iNFACT IN the love of the prophet pbuh we want all the shirk and bidah which the prophet detested to be completely vanquished hence we wont mind in behaving as how hazrat ALI behaved with nusairis and how his sermon #126 in nahjul balagah clearly potrayed. Shirk is the worst unpardonable crime worse then rape, murder and fitna and all safeguards should be ensured so that even the illiterates wont fall into shirk and bidah.Hence the demolishing of the dargas.
Its not me! You guys are projecting yourselves as haters of Ahlul Bayt! You 'like' the topic which talks about destruction of shrine of Grand-daughter of Prophet (s.a.w), In response to 'Live like Ali, die like Hussain' you say 'Live like Prophet only'. MF asks for Quranic verse about Hussain (a.s) being chosen one of Allah! And lets not even get started about anajmi. So where is the love? Love maybe blind but I am not. I just can't see your love. Show me your love!

As for your rants of shirk, shirk, shirk, I only have to say that the asking of intercession from the intercessor, like the asking of du'a from a pious Muslim, in no way implies that the person who asks, believes any good can come apart from Allah (swt). In effect he is asking Allah (swt), but he is using the means that Allah put at his disposal, including the intercession of those who may be closer than himself to Allah. If you hear Shiites say O Mahdi! Or O Ali! it is not that the Shiite believe these two characters can do anything without the will and want of Allah (SWT). When you tell your clergy to pray for you, you know in your heart that the clergy cannot do anything unless Allah (SWT) wants for it to happen, but you believe since he is a man of worship and spends more of his time in the way of Allah, his prayer might get accepted faster. This ideology again takes us back to the secondary cause. One may feel too ashamed of one's bad actions and shall turn to Allah (swt) for forgiveness. To make the forgiveness process a bit quicker he brings with him someone who is dearer to Allah through his actions and intentions. Here is an example from the Holy Qur'an:

The Brother of Prophet Yusuf (as) asked that their father pray for their forgiveness

An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (as) were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

"O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: 'Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful'." (12:97-98).

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/ ... /chap3.php

sixfeetunder
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#94

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:49 am

aliabbas_aa wrote: Shirk is the worst unpardonable crime worse then rape, murder and fitna and all safeguards should be ensured so that even the illiterates wont fall into shirk and bidah.Hence the demolishing of the dargas.
So, as per your logic, A rapist, murderer, alcoholic Wahhabi is better than a pious, namazi, God-fearing Shia who supplicates to Allah through wasila of Maula Ali (a.s)?

Muslim First
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#95

Unread post by Muslim First » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:24 pm

An example of seeking forgiveness can be seen in the Holy Quran, Chapter of Yusuf, where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (as) were ashamed of the act they had done, so they went to their father and said,

"O our father, ask forgiveness for our sins, verily we are sinners. He said: 'Soon I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Verily He is oft-forgiving, most merciful'." (12:97-98).
Father was alive not dead was't he? Is there any mention that they were forgiven by Allah or they will have to wait till day of judgement.

aliabbas_aa
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#96

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:19 pm

This argument of a live person asking dua to another live person is a oft repeated argument , you come up with the same argument again and again.!!

Nowhere in the Quran not a single dua of quran contains supplications using wasila of dead people\martyrs nor any authentic hadith

e.g:rabbi zidni ilma
rabbi shrahli sadri...

Of course its a virtue to ask a LIVE Wali to do dua. But practically it is very difficult to identify a Wali who is mushtajabaduwat whose all dua s are accepted.
lASTLY, not all wasila are illegal the wasila to ask Allah SWT USING the wasila of his 99 names and attributes or your own good deeds is a proven wasila from the Sunnah.
Seeking to draw close to Allaah through righteous deeds, whereby a person asks Allaah by virtue of the best deeds that he has done, such as salaah, fasting, reading Qur’aan, avoiding haraam things, and so on. An example of this is the saheeh hadeeth narrated in the Saheehayn about the three people who entered a cave, and a rock fell and blocked their way out. They asked Allaah by virtue of their best deeds (to save them). A person may also ask Allaah by virtue of his total dependency upon Him, as Allaah mentions in the Qur’aan (interpretation of the meaning): “[Ayyoob said:] ‘Verily, distress has seized me, and You are the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.’ [al-Anbiya’ 21:83]; or by admitting his own wrongdoing and his need for Allaah, as Yoonus is described as saying (interpretation of the meaning): “ ‘None has the right to be worshipped except You (O Allaah). Glorified (and exalted) are You. Truly I have been of the wrong-doers.’” [al-Anbiya’ 21:87]

Seeking to draw close to Allaah by means of His names and attributes. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And (all) the Most Beautiful Names belong to Allaah, so call on Him by them, and leave the company of those who belie or deny (or utter impious speech against) His names. They will be requited for what they used to do.” [al-A’raaf 7:180]. So when a person makes du’aa’ to Allaah, he begins by calling on Allaah with the name that is most apt, such as “al-Rahmaan” (the Most Merciful) when seeking mercy and al-Ghafoor (the All-Forgiving) when asking for forgiveness, and so on.

pheonix
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#97

Unread post by pheonix » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:03 am

aliabbas_aa wrote:sfu,
And we do believe in the hadith which says that one who hates his hasnain hates the prophet pbuh.
Ok, so say Khuda ni lanat Yazeed par and Khuda ni lanat Muwaiya par. They certainly hated Hasnain

humble_servant_us
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#98

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:21 am

g wasila of dead people\martyrs
Do you think the martyrs dead ? Quran has to say something else.

aliabbas_aa
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#99

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:33 am

humble_servant_us wrote:
g wasila of dead people\martyrs
Do you think the martyrs dead ? Quran has to say something else.

thats why is seperated dead people\martyr for sake of arg. You can read as martyr alone and the argument still holds

aliabbas_aa
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#100

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:13 am

btw any chance of demolishing the idolatrous legacy of Egypt including numerous shrines, pagan structures etc .Now as a wahhabi govt(salafi+MB) has taken over?

pheonix
Posts: 210
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#101

Unread post by pheonix » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:00 pm

aliabbas_aa wrote:btw any chance of demolishing the idolatrous legacy of Egypt including numerous shrines, pagan structures etc .Now as a wahhabi govt(salafi+MB) has taken over?
Why dont the Wahabi masters flatten the graves of the two perverts besides the prophet. Should not the Wahabi Kings also have the privilege to be buried besides the Prophet. This is a sincere advice and you should certainly pass it forward

aliabbas_aa
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#102

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:51 pm

The graves of "wahhabi kings" are also flat. Regarding the prophet pbuh grave, then it already shariah compliant- it is near the ground level and is not pucca.

anajmi
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#103

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:07 am

Consider how lucky those two are who are buried next to the prophet (saw) and consider the condition of the Dai buried in Raudat Tahera who is surrounded by complete rubbish on all sides outside!!

aliabbas_aa
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#104

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:43 am

sixfeetunder wrote:
aliabbas_aa wrote: Shirk is the worst unpardonable crime worse then rape, murder and fitna and all safeguards should be ensured so that even the illiterates wont fall into shirk and bidah.Hence the demolishing of the dargas.
So, as per your logic, A rapist, murderer, alcoholic Wahhabi is better than a pious, namazi, God-fearing Shia who supplicates to Allah through wasila of Maula Ali (a.s)?
No a muslim who does not commit shirk and hence does not invoke for help anyone save Allah is better then a mushrik who chants "Ya Ali madad"\ "Ya ganpati madad"\ Mushkilkusha\Wigna harta ganesh (nouzubillah).A mushrik can never be God fearing and pious since he violates the most fundamental teachings of Islam.

A mushrik also comes up with lame excuses that are outright hypocritical as he will openly invoke "ya ali madad" and say that he is not directly invoking Ali but using wasila of Ali in spite of the fact that there is another biddati dua for wasila which asks Allah swt in the name of Ali swt. So instead of using that dua of wasila they transgress even further by chanting "ya ali madad" and claiming it to be dua of wasila.
On top of it if someone objects to it , they label them wahhabi and hater of ahle bayt in the same way as Christians label muslims as anti christ when the Quran forbids diefication of jesus a.s.
WHY WHY WHY?

sixfeetunder
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#105

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:57 pm

aliabbas_aa wrote:
sixfeetunder wrote: So, as per your logic, A rapist, murderer, alcoholic Wahhabi is better than a pious, namazi, God-fearing Shia who supplicates to Allah through wasila of Maula Ali (a.s)?
No a muslim who does not commit shirk and hence does not invoke for help anyone save Allah is better then a mushrik who chants "Ya Ali madad"\ "Ya ganpati madad"\ Mushkilkusha\Wigna harta ganesh (nouzubillah).A mushrik can never be God fearing and pious since he violates the most fundamental teachings of Islam.

A mushrik also comes up with lame excuses that are outright hypocritical as he will openly invoke "ya ali madad" and say that he is not directly invoking Ali but using wasila of Ali in spite of the fact that there is another biddati dua for wasila which asks Allah swt in the name of Ali swt. So instead of using that dua of wasila they transgress even further by chanting "ya ali madad" and claiming it to be dua of wasila.
On top of it if someone objects to it , they label them wahhabi and hater of ahle bayt in the same way as Christians label muslims as anti christ when the Quran forbids diefication of jesus a.s.
WHY WHY WHY?
If a Muslim thinks someone else has powers independent to the powers of Allah and invokes that entity, you can very well go ahead and accuse him of associating partners with Allah. But if a Muslim is seeking a means of approach to Allah, through a saint or Imam, it does not constitute shirk. A wasila is only a means towards an end and not an end in itself. If you contend that one cannot ask the dead, let me remind you from the Quran that those who are slain in the path of Allah are not dead. They are alive but you perceive it not. They are in Allah's presence and obtain sustenance from Allah. First learn your Tawheed lesson properly and then preach others. Your Islaaam reeks of petroleum. Mainstream Sunni and Shia do not like the smell of it.

And do you consider the Kaaba to be an idol? If your answer is no, then why do accuse Imams to be idols. Shias do not think the imams to have independent powers, apart from Allah's powers. All power belongs to Allah alone. But you prostrate to the Kaaba. So, if I don't know your intention, I can safely conclude that you're a kaaba-worshiper. But you will justify your action and say you prostrate to Allah alone, even if apparently you're prostrating in front of the Kaaba! Here, the kaaba becomes your wasila. You will expect me to accept your argument but when I present my argument about wasila and my intention, you will tell me to shut up!! Religion of peace and unity, indeed!

anajmi
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#106

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:23 pm

sixfeetunder,

Do you believe that you will be able to avail the mercy of Allah without the wasila of a human (dead or alive)?

aliabbas_aa
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#107

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:07 am

If a Muslim thinks someone else has powers independent to the powers of Allah and invokes that entity, you can very well go ahead and accuse him of associating partners with Allah. But if a Muslim is seeking a means of approach to Allah, through a saint or Imam, it does not constitute shirk. A wasila is only a means towards an end and not an end in itself. If you contend that one cannot ask the dead, let me remind you from the Quran that those who are slain in the path of Allah are not dead. They are alive but you perceive it not. They are in Allah's presence and obtain sustenance from Allah. First learn your Tawheed lesson properly and then preach others. Your Islaaam reeks of petroleum. Mainstream Sunni and Shia do not like the smell of it.
They may be alive in barzakh , their "alive" is not like physical alive they are in barzakh but do they hear us ?

btw your favourite barelvi sect(sunni) has dished out a formal fatwa of kufr on all shias , deobandis, wahhabis. This fatwa come from ahmed raza khan the notorious barelwi after whom this heretical cult is named. It is responsible for the complete backwardness and jahalat of barelvi sunni masses in India.
And do you consider the Kaaba to be an idol? If your answer is no, then why do accuse Imams to be idols. Shias do not think the imams to have independent powers, apart from Allah's powers. All power belongs to Allah alone. But you prostrate to the Kaaba. So, if I don't know your intention, I can safely conclude that you're a kaaba-worshiper. But you will justify your action and say you prostrate to Allah alone, even if apparently you're prostrating in front of the Kaaba! Here, the kaaba becomes your wasila. You will expect me to accept your argument but when I present my argument about wasila and my intention, you will tell me to shut up!! Religion of peace and unity, indeed!
I dont accuse Imam of idols i expose your hypocrisy in making your imams and idols invoking them for help, yet making a false and outright deceiving statement that its just a wasila.

If you talk about wasila then its a seperate issue alltogether, what we are discussing is DIRECT INVOCATION to gairullah in absence of it and with the belief that it will help us.
One more thing , why do you invoke "ya ali madd" without any wasila to ALi a.s , he is such a great Imam isnt he?, how can you directly invoke Ali a.s without a Wasila?

sixfeetunder
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#108

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:00 pm

aliabbas_aa wrote:They may be alive in barzakh , their "alive" is not like physical alive they are in barzakh but do they hear us ?
Qur'an does not mention barzakh. Qur'an says:

[Yusufali 3:169] Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; AND

[Yusufali 2:154] And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.

So, we learn that those who die and give themselves fully for the sake and in the way of Allah, are not dead. They are alive, attached and closely connected with the ever-living Allah. Death is not the destruction of the ruh (spirit). It applies to all human beings, but as said in 3:163, "of diverse ranks they shall be with Allah", therefore, the martyrs who are nearest to Him and occupy highest positions are in direct communion with their Lord.

Yes, they can hear us. A simple example: 5 times a day, in your salaah, you say: 'Assalamu alaika ayyuhan Nabiyyu’. Prophet hears it. If he cannot hear, your namaaz is shirk. Also, It is waajib to reply to a salaam. Prophet replies but you perceive it not. There are ahadith to the same effect.
btw your favourite barelvi sect(sunni) has dished out a formal fatwa of kufr on all shias , deobandis, wahhabis. This fatwa come from ahmed raza khan the notorious barelwi after whom this heretical cult is named. It is responsible for the complete backwardness and jahalat of barelvi sunni masses in India
And the pot calls the kettle black!

I dont accuse Imam of idols i expose your hypocrisy in making your imams and idols invoking them for help, yet making a false and outright deceiving statement that its just a wasila.

If you talk about wasila then its a seperate issue alltogether, what we are discussing is DIRECT INVOCATION to gairullah in absence of it and with the belief that it will help us.
One more thing , why do you invoke "ya ali madd" without any wasila to ALi a.s , he is such a great Imam isnt he?, how can you directly invoke Ali a.s without a Wasila?
There are 17 verses in the Quran which say there is no intercession. 10 verses say there is intercession. Guess what. 17 verses refer to idols of kuffar. They are addressed to them. 10 verses which say intercession is allowed, lays conditions for the ones who will intercede. These are for Muslims. Prophet and Imams meet all these conditions. So, first study Quran properly and do not apply verses revealed for Non-Muslims to Muslims. Do not blindly follow Ibn Abdul Wahhab. 'Ya Ali' and 'Ya Ali Madad' is one and the same thing. If I am saying Ya Ali madad, thinking that Ali (a.s) has independent powers from those of Allah, I am committing Shirk, otherwise not.

When you ask your local Mullajee some doubt which you have in religion or ask a loan from a friend, you know very well that they will not be able to help you if Allah does not will. But still you ask them. You do not think they are 'ghairullah'. Similarly, If one asks Ali (a.s) for help, knowing he is connected closely to the ever-living Allah, (as per the holy Quran), there is no problem.

Next time you pray namaaz, remember you are committing shirk when you say "Assalaamu alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu'. Don't commit shirk, brother. Allah will not forgive you. It is a big sin. Bigger than murder and rape.

anajmi
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#109

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:29 pm

sfu,

Do you believe that without the wasila of a human you cannot avail the mercy of Allah?

aliabbas_aa
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#110

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:58 pm

sfu,
: 'Assalamu alaika ayyuhan Nabiyyu’. Prophet hears it. If he cannot hear, your namaaz is shirk. Also, It is waajib to reply
These wordings are now changed according to following hadith:
Bukhari -Volume 8, Book 74, Number 281:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

Allah's Apostle taught me the Tashah-hud as he taught me a Sura from the Quran, while my hand was between his hands. (Tashah-hud was) all the best compliments and the prayers and the good things are for Allah. Peace and Allah's Mercy and Blessings be on you, O Prophet! Peace be on us and on the pious slaves of Allah, I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and I also testify that Muhammad is Allah's slave and His Apostle. (We used to recite this in the prayer) during the lifetime of the Prophet , but when he had died, we used to say, "Peace be on the Prophet."

-And the prophet pbuh does give reply to salam but this exception is available to prophet pbuih alone and not others unless explicitly written in quran\hadith.

How can a Muslim seek assistance from any other than Allah Almighty? Despite the fact that every Muslim must repeat the following words from the Quran in his prayer (salat) at least seventeen times a day:

“You alone do we worship, and Your aid alone we seek.” (Quran, 1:5)
Allah Almighty says clearly in the Quran:

“And invoke not, besides Allah, [anyone since that] will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers). And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace.” (Quran, 10:106-107)

Humans, no matter their status, cannot help anyone or harm anyone. Only Allah Almighty can cause harm and only He can bring benefit to us. Allah Almighty says in the Quran:

“Say [O Muhammad]: ‘I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah wills’” (Quran, 7:188)

If the Prophet could not even have power of good or harm over himself, then how can we say that he has such powers over others? If the Prophet himself declares that he cannot bring good or harm, then why are we asking him?

Islam is a fiercely monothiestic faith, and rejects all forms of intermediaries with Allah. Intermediaries are none other than idols. The pagans believe that their idols are intermediaries, and they invoke them to ask God for help through them. So too do the Christians believe in Jesus as an intermediary to God. And so have the Imams become an intermediary and idols for the Shia.But nevertheless the imams are paak from the devious lies of the shia

sixfeetunder
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#111

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:51 pm

anajmi wrote:sfu,

Do you believe that without the wasila of a human you cannot avail the mercy of Allah?
anajmi,

InshaAllah, you will find my answer in the below question:

Do you believe that without fasting, you can avail the mercy of Allah?

sixfeetunder
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#112

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:50 pm

These wordings are now changed according to following hadith:
Bukhari -Volume 8, Book 74, Number 281:

Narrated Ibn Mas'ud:

Allah's Apostle taught me the Tashah-hud as he taught me a Sura from the Quran, while my hand was between his hands. (Tashah-hud was) all the best compliments and the prayers and the good things are for Allah. Peace and Allah's Mercy and Blessings be on you, O Prophet! Peace be on us and on the pious slaves of Allah, I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and I also testify that Muhammad is Allah's slave and His Apostle. (We used to recite this in the prayer) during the lifetime of the Prophet , but when he had died, we used to say, "Peace be on the Prophet."
The Tashahhud which contains the words السلام عليك أيها النبي ‘Assalamu ‘alaika ayyuhan Nabiyyu’ is narrated by Muslim and Nas’ai on the authority of Sayyiduna Abdullah Ibn Abbas رضي الله عنهما, also by Muslim and Abu Dawud on the authority of Abu Musa al-Ash’ari رضي الله عنه, and by Abu Dawud and Darqutni on the authority of Abdullah Ibn Umar رضي الله عنهما. None of these narrations mention anything about changing the Tashahhud after the demise of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم.

Shaykh Muhammad Nasir ad-Deen al-Albani رحمه الله, who the Salafis blindly follow, considered the Tashahhud with the wording ‘Assalamu ‘alaika ayyuhan Nabiyyu’ to be one of the correct and authentic forms of Tashahhud.
(Sifat Salatin-Nabiyy: pg.162, Maktaba al-Ma’arif)



Another authority of modern-day salafis, Shaykh Abdul Azeez Ibn Baaz رحمه الله, doesn’t seem to agree with Brother aliabbas_aa either!

المشروع أن يقولوا بما علَّم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم الصحابة، علمهم أن يقولوا: (السلام عليك أيها النبي ورحـمة الله وبركاته) فنقول كما علمنا الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم، علم الصحابة ولم يقل لهم إذا مت غيروا

“The prescribed (method of Tashahhud) is to say that which the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم taught the Sahaba رضي الله عنهم, that is to say السلام عليك أيها النبي ‘Assalamu ‘alaika ayyuhan Nabiyyu’, so we should say as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم taught. He taught the Sahaba and He did not say ‘change it after I pass away’..”
(Fatawa of Ibn Baaz)


Surely if it contained any element of shirk, these two scholars would be the first to point it out?
How can a Muslim seek assistance from any other than Allah Almighty? Despite the fact that every Muslim must repeat the following words from the Quran in his prayer (salat) at least seventeen times a day:

“You alone do we worship, and Your aid alone we seek.” (Quran, 1:5)
Yes, a Muslim who seeks assistance from other than Allah, thinking that the other (ghairullah) has independent powers to harm or benefit, it may be called shirk. All power belongs to Allah alone.
Allah Almighty says clearly in the Quran:

“And invoke not, besides Allah, [anyone since that] will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers). And if Allah should afflict you with harm, then there is none to remove it but He; and if He intends good to you there is none to repel His grace.” (Quran, 10:106-107)
Indeed. As the verse clearly states: "Since that will neither profit you, nor hurt you". Muslims who believe in the permissibility do not think that those "Beside Allah" will profit or hurt them on their own, without the will of Allah. All power belongs to Allah alone. He is the all-mighty.

Let me quote you a verse which shows permissibility of intercession. Now, since the Quranic verses cannot contradict each other, we have to accept that the verses are complimenting each other.

[Shakir 43:86] And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him).

There are other similar verses which put forth conditions for intercessors. Prophet and Imams qualify those conditions.
Humans, no matter their status, cannot help anyone or harm anyone. Only Allah Almighty can cause harm and only He can bring benefit to us. Allah Almighty says in the Quran:

“Say [O Muhammad]: ‘I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah wills’” (Quran, 7:188)

If the Prophet could not even have power of good or harm over himself, then how can we say that he has such powers over others? If the Prophet himself declares that he cannot bring good or harm, then why are we asking him?
[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Here, the Prophet is becoming a wasila for forgiveness of sins, as per the Holy Quran. So, he can be a means of bringing harm or benefit to people. Prophet has no powers independent to the powers of Allah. All power belongs to Allah alone. Your understanding is faulty. I have power, you have power but our power comes from Allah's power. We are not partners in his powers. All power belongs to Allah alone. He is the all-mighty.
Islam is a fiercely monothiestic faith, and rejects all forms of intermediaries with Allah. Intermediaries are none other than idols. The pagans believe that their idols are intermediaries, and they invoke them to ask God for help through them. So too do the Christians believe in Jesus as an intermediary to God. And so have the Imams become an intermediary and idols for the Shia.But nevertheless the imams are paak from the devious lies of the shia
There are 10 verses in the Quran which enumerate who the intermediaries with Allah are. As per your logic, Allah is himself entering into joint-ventures with various categories of mediators. Should I quote these 'idolatrous' verses for you, where Allah makes 'idols' for us?

aliabbas_aa
Posts: 320
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:21 am

Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#113

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:20 pm

Reg ayuhal nabi, i already told that this exception is only for prophet pbuh only he alone can reply and that too only salams and not "ya rasulallah maddad" , you have to give evidences for other "saints"!

Intercessors are allowed only on the day of judgement , all verses of the Quran on intercession allude to it.
A valid intercession would be of a physically alive saintly person whom you have good rapport with and ask him to pray for you.

Even Hindus believe in Allah and most of them agree that their idols have no power only one source "parmatma"\"bhrama" etc is the one true God, so was the belief of pagan mushriks of Mecca who did believe in the unity of ALLAH swt But instead of invoking ALLAH alone they shareek'd with other saints like laat , uzza etc.
But Allah swt clearly commands to invoke none but him. Even in the nahjul balagha you wont find any utterance like "ya rasullah madad".This bidah of invocation to gairuallah saints is about 900yrs old only while islam was revived since 1400 yrs.

I hope you understand the seriousness of the matter and just dont try to push relevant verses just to satisfy your own nafs. Quraan is crystal clear in forbidding invocation to other then ALLAH SWT.
So please dont try to "win" a debate but u can silently acknowledge this serious matter.

May ALLAH SWT make easy for you to accept truth! AMEEN

sixfeetunder
Posts: 433
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#114

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:29 pm

aliabbas_aa wrote:Reg ayuhal nabi, i already told that this exception is only for prophet pbuh only he alone can reply and that too only salams and not "ya rasulallah maddad" , you have to give evidences for other "saints"!
So we agree that it is possible for the Prophet to reply to our salaams. So let us not make it a blanket rule that the 'dead' cannot hear and cannot reply. As for 'Ya RasulAllah madad', since both of us believe in the validity of the Quran, we read that:

“Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they have provision.”[3:169]

“And say not of those who are killed in the way of Allah, 'They are dead.' Nay, they are living, but you perceive it not.”[2:154]

Calling upon the Prophet and his family does not negate the fact that Allah is the source of help and rescue in this universe. However, because these people are the closest to Him, and they enjoy a special status with Him, then calling upon them means calling upon Allah for the sake of those whom He loves.

Intercessors are allowed only on the day of judgement , all verses of the Quran on intercession allude to it.
Intercession is of to be understood in two parts:

1. Wasila (someone who is a bridge or link between you and Allah in the world).
2. Shafa’a (someone who intercedes for you on the day of judgement).
Even Hindus believe in Allah and most of them agree that their idols have no power only one source "parmatma"\"bhrama" etc is the one true God, so was the belief of pagan mushriks of Mecca who did believe in the unity of ALLAH swt But instead of invoking ALLAH alone they shareek'd with other saints like laat , uzza etc.
But Allah swt clearly commands to invoke none but him. Even in the nahjul balagha you wont find any utterance like "ya rasullah madad".This bidah of invocation to gairuallah saints is about 900yrs old only while islam was revived since 1400 yrs.
Laat and Uzza were saints! Are you kidding me? Laat, manat and Uzza were self-invented daughters of Allah. They were false deities. False goddesses. The idols of Hindus you talk about are also mythological. So even if they use the idols for 'intercession', it is of no avail as the means to reach the end is invalid. On the contrary, RasulAllah and his family are legitimate means. How dare you compare Prophet with imaginary goddesses like Laat and Uzza!

All jurists including Imami' Shafi'i' Maliki' and later-day Hanafi scholars as well as others such as the Hanbalis' are unanimous on the permissibility of this way of supplication' whether it was in the lifetime of the Prophet (s)' or whether it is after his passing away.
1. Sharh al-Mawahib' vol. 8' p. 304;
2. al-Majmu'' vol. 8' p. 274;
3. Ibn 'Abidin' vol. 5' p.254;
4. al-Fatawa al-Hindiyyah' vol. 1' p. 266 and vol. 5' 318;
5. Fath al-Qadir' vol. 8' p. 297' 298
6. al-Futuhat al-Rabbaniyyah 'ala al-Azkar al-Nabawiyyah' vol. 5' p. 36


"Imam Shafi'i made tawassul through the Family of the Prophet (Ahl al-Bayt) when he said:

Al al-nabi dhari'ati wa hum ilayhi wasilati
arju bihim u'ta ghadan bi yadi al-yamini sahifati

The Family of the Prophet are my means and my intermediary to him. Through them I hope to be given my record with the right hand tomorrow".

Source: 1. Ibn Hajr Haytami' in Al-Sawa'iq al-muhriqa li ahl al-dalal wa al-zandaqa (eg page 180)

2. al-Khayrat al-hisan (p. 69) This has also been found in Diwan al-Shafi'i as edited by 'Umar Faruq al-Dabbagh (Beirut: Dar al-arqam' n.d.) p. 50.


Intercession through Prophet and his family has always been part of Islam. Shia and mainstream Sunni agree on it. It is only the Wahhabis that apply verses revealed for Kuffar to Muslim brothers. The purpose is to create mischief by creating division among Muslims and gaining political and religious hegemony over the Muslim world.

I hope you understand the seriousness of the matter and just dont try to push relevant verses just to satisfy your own nafs. Quraan is crystal clear in forbidding invocation to other then ALLAH SWT.
So please dont try to "win" a debate but u can silently acknowledge this serious matter.

May ALLAH SWT make easy for you to accept truth! AMEEN
Here, you are committing shirk by judging my intentions. Don't commit shirk, brother!! Only Allah knows intentions!! Don't judge my intentions. Don't become a partner with Allah. Associating partners is shirk and becoming partners is worse! Worse than rape and murder.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#115

Unread post by Muslim First » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:54 pm

Br 6'U

Have you ever prayed directly to Allah SWT?

What do you think about this?
THE ESSAY- On praying to anybody except Allah SWT
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4265

aliabbas_aa
Posts: 320
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#116

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:28 pm

Br, sfyu

Please dont persistently try to shift the focus of discussion from invoking gairullah DIRECTLY TO wasila, i already clarified that legal wasila is allowed.
aqs wrote:A common mistake done by Bohras though unknowingly.

a very large number who goes to Dargah of any Moula when asks for any blessings directly asks the Moula

example : XYZ Moula please give me XYZ thing, or fulfill my XYZ desire

now this is shirk as they are directly asking and this in no way is vasila.

vasila will be when the person asking for something does Dua like

Ya Allah give me XYZ and i take vasila of XYZ Moula
I AM not talking about the vasila as aqs mentioned but directly saying "ya ali maddad" , i have heard shia + barelvi scholars say ali is hazir nazir hence we can invoke them. Isint it clear shirk?
And there are several long hadith which state that laat , uzza etc were actually pious people and after a gap of time people made idols in exaggeration of love for them.Like today's bohra ,shia,barelvi hang 2D idol photos of mola ,khomeni,babas,saibaba,ganpati etc.

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#117

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:29 am

aa,

I think you fail to understand a simple fact which SFU is trying to explain that calling Ya-ali madad is niyaa based. It is the intention of the caller who calls ya-ali madad . In this regard even if you call Ya-allah madad and your niyaa or intention about Allah is not the as the glorious God is to be percieved you are too doing shirk.

So please before shouting shirk, look within your ownself, are you calling Allah(swt) the way he needs to be called, I would not comment on your niyat but your writings indicate the Allah(swt) you worship cannot be the Glorious Lord of mercy whom we worship.

SFu is providing proper logic and reasoning to everything but hardness of hearth is preventing you from acknowledging truth.

aliabbas_aa
Posts: 320
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#118

Unread post by aliabbas_aa » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:36 am

humble_servant_us wrote:aa,

I think you fail to understand a simple fact which SFU is trying to explain that calling Ya-ali madad is niyaa based. It is the intention of the caller who calls ya-ali madad . In this regard even if you call Ya-allah madad and your niyaa or intention about Allah is not the as the glorious God is to be percieved you are too doing shirk.

So please before shouting shirk, look within your ownself, are you calling Allah(swt) the way he needs to be called, I would not comment on your niyat but your writings indicate the Allah(swt) you worship cannot be the Glorious Lord of mercy whom we worship.

SFu is providing proper logic and reasoning to everything but hardness of hearth is preventing you from acknowledging truth.
If you say its on intention alone , then what you would say about the ganpati pujak who does Aaarti of ganpati and claims that his intention is not to worship this stone idol , but to worship the one true God alone!


An intention may not manifest itself in an action but your Actions speak out your intention.

hence by invoking "ya ali madad" in spite of Quran forbidding it "iyya kanabudu wa iyyakanastaeeim" in surah fateha, your actions go in contradiction with the prohibition of the ACTION of invoking others for help.!

REMEMBER ALLAH SWT PROHIBITED THE ACTION ITSELF!

humble_servant_us
Posts: 471
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#119

Unread post by humble_servant_us » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:27 am

If you say its on intention alone , then what you would say about the ganpati pujak who does Aaarti of ganpati and claims that his intention is not to worship this stone idol , but to worship the one true God alone!
Fyi, Ganpati is a deity of hindus which is worshipped. If not as direct GOD, he is worshipped as the Remover of Obstacles and more generally as Lord of Beginnings and Lord of Obstacles. Here the intention of worshipper is clear because that is what he is declaring and believing into.

Moreover with all due respects the hindu mythology looks fictitious and comparing fictional with reality doesn't make sense.

If you want to make comparisons, You can call your son and parents mushrik when they call you for help and then you are free to call us the same. Next time even when you think about Allah(swt) be careful you might be committing shirk, because something which "can be thought about" cannot be Allah(Swt). Anyways this is too much for you to understand. It is in your intrest to focus on your concept of tawheed rather than branding others as mushriks.

The prophet(pbuh) and his ahlulbait(as) are our best roles models and they are alive as per quran and they listen to us and reply when we call. You need to purify your heart to recieve this. It has been proved consistently on this forum the validity of calling out to these noble creatures but unfortunately the veil of hatred has sealed your heart. No shia worships ahlulbait. We love them, rever them and call them as our leaders. It is through them and their lives we understand islam the way it needs to be understood unlike it was understood by the so called "muslims" of karbala who were shouting "La illaha illalah" and at the same time killing the grandson of the prophet(pbuh). How different are you and your salaf from them. You are also shouting the same kalma and killing shias and other people all around the world just because they do not endorse your way of thinking.
An intention may not manifest itself in an action but your Actions speak out your intention.
This is not true. Have you read Surah kahf. Have you read the story of Musa(as) and his companion.
hence by invoking "ya ali madad" in spite of Quran forbidding it "iyya kanabudu wa iyyakanastaeeim" in surah fateha, your actions go in contradiction with the prohibition of the ACTION of invoking others for help
The way you have understood quran is limited to your intellect where you pick up ayats as per your convenience to suit your ego. Your basic belief system of Tawheed is crooked. Your God (the idol of Allah(swt) which you have created in your mind) is very intolerant and cruel.

Muslim First
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Re: new salafi mosque in bhendi bazar \ bohri mohalla

#120

Unread post by Muslim First » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:05 pm

Br Ali Abbas
As
You are whistling Dixie in front of these hardcore grave worshippers and those who refuse to condemn so call Islamic trial marriages (Muta).

They will never concede that grave worshipping and Wasila of dead saints is not Halal. They will argue that Niya and not niya regarding Ya Ali Madad. Look at this video of Ayatulla muttering Ya Ali, Ya Ali just before reciting Al Fateha.
Start listening around 2:20 Min.
http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2011/ ... ing-quran/

So why do you keep arguing with them?