A Good read by Asghar Ali Engineer

[profastian]

Br Hanif
Pretty uncivilized response, I could not even read beyond first line.
You should revise your iftari time to lunch time.
Have a nice rest of Ramadan.

BTW vedio is worth watching for couple of minutes. Bohras are getting there and some Agakhnis think Ali is Allah and Ali is superior then all Prophets. It's on Isnaili.net and without any descent.

Well let me throw in a some more masala for you.
Its not only the Agakhanis, bohras also think that Ali is superior than Adam,Noah,Moses, and Jesus.
Now go and take switch off that life support


P.S. I challenge you to provide one authentic Ayah or Hadith which says that these prophets are superior to all humans after the prophet.

[Examiner]

Now go and take switch off that life support

I support this statement hahahaha

[anajmi]

Its not only the Agakhanis, bohras also think that Ali is superior than Adam,Noah,Moses, and Jesus.

Thank you very much for validating what we have been saying all along. Bohras are not only mushriks, but can now be classified as kafirs as well. porus will be turning in his grave (if he is in one that is, or he might be just turning in his bed)

P.S. I challenge you to provide one authentic Ayah or Hadith which says that these prophets are superior to all humans after the prophet.

These are prophets you moron. They have to be superior or they wouldn't be prophets. If only you had aql, but you obviously gave it to your Dai in salaam!!

Muslim First can now sleep peacefully at night. His mission to prove bohras are mushriks has been completed successfully.

[salim]

I don't think Shia's (Ithansharies, Ismailis, Bohras and Alwaits) believe that Ali is Allah.

I think people misinterpret this. Ali is not Allah, but Ali is from Allah. Ali is Allah's blessings to man kind. Islam was completed only after Muhammad appointed Ali as Imam, and Allah gave a guide to the mankind.

[Muslim First]

Well let me throw in a some more masala for you.

Now go and take switch off that life support

Din't your Bhagwan teach you that to commit suicide is 'Haraam' in Islam?
Also this damn thing is quite 'suicide proof'. I do not have code to 'switch off' darn thing. Only Allah SWT has it.

[Muslim First]

I don't think Shia's (Ithansharies, Ismailis, Bohras and Alwaits) believe that Ali is Allah.

I think people misinterpret this.
O ya, Read Hanif's statement.
Ali is not Allah, but Ali is from Allah.
Elephant is born from elephant, so if Ali is from Allah then initially is child Allah then he grows up to become Allah
Ali is Allah's blessings to man kind. Islam was completed only after Muhammad appointed Ali as Imam, and Allah gave a guide to the mankind.
I like to see Aya from Qur'an stating this

[Hanif]

I don't think Shia's (Ithansharies, Ismailis, Bohras and Alwaits) believe that Ali is Allah.

I think people misinterpret this.
O ya, Read Hanif's statement.
Ali is not Allah, but Ali is from Allah.
Elephant is born from elephant, so if Ali is from Allah then initially is child Allah then he grows up to become Allah
Ali is Allah's blessings to man kind. Islam was completed only after Muhammad appointed Ali as Imam, and Allah gave a guide to the mankind.
I like to see Aya from Qur'an stating this

What is the use of providing suras from the Qur'an. You have proved to us on this forum that you do not follow the Suras from the Qur'an, you do not follow the Sunnah and you do not follow the ahadith.

So forget about the proof from the Qur'an which you do not follow.

One thing is for sure, you are not a smart person. You have displayed your ignorance so many times on this forum.
And I do not believe you are even a successful businessman because no businessman with your sense can conduct a business.

I can believe if you are in the business of garbage collection, because then you do not need much investment, but definitely not an IT.

[anajmi]

What is the use of providing suras from the Qur'an.

You shouldn't be worried about the use. I provide ayahs from the Quran for people like you even though I know that it is of no use for you, but someone else with some little bit of sense still remaining might be able to understand.

[Muslim First]

One thing is for sure, you are not a smart person. You have displayed your ignorance so many times on this forum.
And I do not believe you are even a successful businessman because no businessman with your sense can conduct a business.

I can believe if you are in the business of garbage collection, because then you do not need much investment, but definitely not an IT.

As far as art of insults are concerned, You have learned well from your Taguts.

I am in successful business of injecting 'Mirchi', you know where! It's burning.Is it not?

Wasalaam

[salim]

Ali is from Allah does not mean Ali is son of Allah. It just means that Ali the guide was sent on to the earth by the order of Allah. Now, by this logic everyone is from Allah. Which is right, but the difference is everyone are not programmed to do exact same thing. All the humans and to some extent animals have free will. Our deeds/future is dependent on our free will and the free will of others. For example even though I want to live, but if someone kills me, I will die because of someone else deeds.

This rules does not hold good, for Ali. Allah has send Ali to guide the faithfuls. No one can stop him from doing this. He himself can't stop him from doing this. This is what it means when people say Ali is from Allah. Allah has made him commander in chief of faithful and he will do his duty and no one can stop him.

After Ali, the chain of Imamat started. Imams are send to as guide. No one can stop Imamat, as this is ordered by Allah.

This is what it means when we say Ali is from Allah.

[Muslim First]

Ali is from Allah does not mean Ali is son of Allah. It just means that Ali the guide was sent on to the earth by the order of Allah.
Can you post copy of that order? Must be in Qur'an
Now, by this logic everyone is from Allah. Which is right,
What took you so long to figure it out?
but the difference is everyone are not programmed to do exact same thing. All the humans and to some extent animals have free will.
So did Ali
Our deeds/future is dependent on our free will and the free will of others. For example even though I want to live, but if someone kills me, I will die because of someone else deeds.
Have you heard of destiny (Kadar)? What is written is written and only Allah can change it
This rules does not hold good, for Ali.
History says it did. He was myrterd by extremist. If he was Divine then he could have prevented it
Allah has send Ali to guide the faithful.
Does not Qur'an and Sunnah contains all the guidance and Knowledgable people are suppose to guide and lead people based on that guidance?
No one can stop him from doing this. He himself can't stop him from doing this.
A extremist killed him and stopped him, did he not?
This is what it means when people say Ali is from Allah.
No Mushriks say it because they are afraid to say Ali is Allah (Hinif admitted that for Shia Ali is Allah)
Allah has made him commander in chief of faithful
Yes he was commander of faithful but no longer alive
and he will do his duty and no one can stop him.
How is he going to that is mystery to me
After Ali, the chain of Imamat started.
There are more than one chain, whixh chain you are talking about?
Imams are send to as guide.
Give me a single Aya from Qur'an stating that Ali and after Ali progeny of Ali and Fatema are going to Imams. No Hadith and no gol gol (circular) analysis
No one can stop Imamat, as this is ordered by Allah.
Once again, post that order
This is what it means when we say Ali is from Allah.
Actully you cannot say openly 'Ali is Allah' so you and many Shia use a code saying "Ali is from Allah"

[sixfeetunder]

I wonder about those who call Ali, God;
How great a God we must have if Ali ibn Abi Talib is his servant.

[anajmi]

Ali is so great, that Allah remembered not to mention him even once in the Quran!!

[anajmi]

Shia - Well, actually he did. Every time He mentions Himself, He mentions Ali.

[salim]

Ali is from Allah does not mean Ali is son of Allah. It just means that Ali the guide was sent on to the earth by the order of Allah.
Can you post copy of that order? Must be in Qur'an

Allah asked prophet Muhammad to declare Ali as Imam, but Muhammad was afraid that some evil people will distroy all his hard work. Then Allah send this Ayat -

Ayat 67. O Messenger (Muhammad [S.A.W.W]((P.B.U.H) )! Proclaim (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allah will protect you from people. Verily, Allah guides not the people who disbelieve

.

You will see that in this Ayat, Allah was a little harsh. Allah told Muhammad that if he is not going to convey the message that Allah gave, he will not be Allah's messenger anymore.

At this time Muhammad was coming back from Hajj. At this time he gathered everyone who was traveling with him and made a stage of camel and then he raise the hands of Ali and declared Ali as Imam as per Allah's order and after this declaration Allah fulfilled Islam.


http://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

[salim]

History says it did. He was myrterd by extremist. If he was Divine then he could have prevented it

Extremist killed his body, but they were not able to kill Imamat. Allah's guidance continued to the mankind via Hussein. Many extrimist tried to end Imamat, but the Imamat continued. They failed every time, Alllah as send this blessing on to the earth and no extremist can stop this.

[profastian]

Ali is from Allah does not mean Ali is son of Allah. It just means that Ali the guide was sent on to the earth by the order of Allah.
Can you post copy of that order? Must be in Qur'an
Now, by this logic everyone is from Allah. Which is right,
What took you so long to figure it out?
but the difference is everyone are not programmed to do exact same thing. All the humans and to some extent animals have free will.
So did Ali
Our deeds/future is dependent on our free will and the free will of others. For example even though I want to live, but if someone kills me, I will die because of someone else deeds.
Have you heard of destiny (Kadar)? What is written is written and only Allah can change it
This rules does not hold good, for Ali.
History says it did. He was myrterd by extremist. If he was Divine then he could have prevented it
Allah has send Ali to guide the faithful.
Does not Qur'an and Sunnah contains all the guidance and Knowledgable people are suppose to guide and lead people based on that guidance?
No one can stop him from doing this. He himself can't stop him from doing this.
A extremist killed him and stopped him, did he not?
This is what it means when people say Ali is from Allah.
No Mushriks say it because they are afraid to say Ali is Allah (Hinif admitted that for Shia Ali is Allah)
Allah has made him commander in chief of faithful
Yes he was commander of faithful but no longer alive
and he will do his duty and no one can stop him.
How is he going to that is mystery to me
After Ali, the chain of Imamat started.
There are more than one chain, whixh chain you are talking about?
Imams are send to as guide.
Give me a single Aya from Qur'an stating that Ali and after Ali progeny of Ali and Fatema are going to Imams. No Hadith and no gol gol (circular) analysis
No one can stop Imamat, as this is ordered by Allah.
Once again, post that order
This is what it means when we say Ali is from Allah.
Actully you cannot say openly 'Ali is Allah' so you and many Shia use a code saying "Ali is from Allah"

Man kunto Maula hofahaza Ali un Maula.

No gol no gol, no circular, a sahih hadith accepted by all Shais, All Sunnis, All Bohras, All Agakhanis, All Nuseris, All Bahais.
Can there be any clearer hadith?
Man kunto Maula hofahaza Ali un Maula.
Man kunto Maula hofahaza Ali un Maula.
Man kunto Maula hofahaza Ali un Maula.
Now go and eat your heart out and try to GOL GOL this hadith to suit your needs.
This hadith is really a slap on the face of you literalist. It cannot get any literal than this.

[anajmi]

salim,

If you look at the common sense interpretation of the ayah, it is referring to the Quran. Here is the ayah

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

Allah has been asked to proclaim what is revealed to him (Unzila) which is the Quran and not some shia fantasy. Also, his "message" refers to the Quran and nothing else. The same words are used in different ayahs of the Quran. The only way this ayah can refer to Ali is if you are an Ali worshipper and believe that Ali is Allah. Which has already been established!!

Man kunto Maula hofahaza Ali un Maula.

This is a sahih hadith and yet only the shia became Ali worshippers!!

When the Quran is interpreted to suit your idol worship, a hadith cannot even come close.

[salim]

Ali is so great, that Allah remembered not to mention him even once in the Quran!!

Allah was prepraing the mankind for the revelation that happened on ghadeer e khum. When you start learning math, you are not introduced to Algebra, right of the bat, first you were taught numbers, then addition, then subtraction, etc. This does not mean Algebra is not a Math.

[salim]

salim,

If you look at the common sense interpretation of the ayah, it is referring to the Quran. Here is the ayah

يَا أَيُّهَا الرَّسُولُ بَلِّغْ مَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكَ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ وَاللّهُ يَعْصِمُكَ مِنَ النَّاسِ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْكَافِرِينَ

Allah has been asked to proclaim what is revealed to him (Unzila) which is the Quran and not some shia fantasy. Also, his "message" refers to the Quran and nothing else. The same words are used in different ayahs of the Quran. The only way this ayah can refer to Ali is if you are an Ali worshipper and believe that Ali is Allah. Which has already been established!!

Man kunto Maula hofahaza Ali un Maula.

This is a sahih hadith and yet only the shia became Ali worshippers!!

When the Quran is interpreted to suit your idol worship, a hadith cannot even come close.

Quran was already revealed to mankind. There was only one ayat left. And Muhammad conveyed every ayat to Muslims. If you read this word by word, you will feel that if this is Quran, Allah is not talking about Quran which was already conveyed, Allah may be talking about Quran Part 2. Since there is no Quran part 2, this has to do with something or someone who can guide.

Also look the incident that followed after this. Muhammad did not gather everyone and started summarizing the quran. He rather appointed Ali as Imam. And then Islam was fulfilled, how come all of sudden after this incident Allah decided to perfect Islam, not too long ago Muhammad's messangership was in trouble?

So we Shia believe that Allah was talking about Imam.

[anajmi]

Allah was prepraing the mankind for the revelation that happened on ghadeer e khum. When you start learning math, you are not introduced to Algebra, right of the bat, first you were taught numbers, then addition, then subtraction, etc. This does not mean Algebra is not a Math.

You are joking right? One needs to prepare for the coming of Dajjal and one needs to prepare for the day of judgment. That is what the Quran is preparing us for. You don't need to prepare for the Imam because the Imam is supposed to come and prepare you for the impending doom. You got math confused with your biology!!

Also look the incident that followed after this. Muhammad did not gather everyone and started summarizing the quran.

Actually, the incident after this is a shia fantasy. If you look at the quran the same words are repeated in different ayahs of the quran. Do you understand what I am trying to say over here? The same words are repeated in different places and revealed at different times!!

By the way, we have already acknowledged that you believe Ali is Allah as was specified by our 12-hour-fast brother. We do not need to go into why and how. All you say is nothing more than erroneous interpretations of the Quran to glorify a human instead of the Almighty Allah and we know why.

[sixfeetunder]

Ali is so great, that Allah remembered not to mention him even once in the Quran!!

Shia - Well, actually he did. Every time He mentions Himself, He mentions Ali.

Well, that is an intellectually dishonest argument. Moses is mentioned 136 times by name and Muhammad (s.a.w) is mentioned 5 times (4 times as Muhammad and 1 time as Ahmad). Does that mean Moses is greater than Muhammad (s.a.w)?

From Muhammad's era, apart from him and Abu Lahab, only Zayd ibn Haritha is mentioned by name in the Quran. Does that make Zayd the most important person after Muhammad? The reason his name crops up is in relation to marriage with the ex-wife of an adopted son.

So, the Qur'an is not revealed in a style that gives importance to people only with mention of their names. And there are plenty of verses which relate directly or indirectly to Ali ibn Abi Talib.

Thanks.

[anajmi]

Well, that is an intellectually dishonest argument. Moses is mentioned 136 times by name and Muhammad (s.a.w) is mentioned 5 times (4 times as Muhammad and 1 time as Ahmad). Does that mean Moses is greater than Muhammad (s.a.w)?

That is an intellectually dishonest argument. The entire Quran was revealed to the prophet (saw). The prophet is referred to in the Quran dozens of time. The prophet is spoken to by Allah in the Quran dozens of time. Even I have been referred to in the Quran. But a person so great, that the he becomes a gauge for the greatness of God, is not mentioned once in the Quran? We have to arrive at him through convoluted interpretations?? Let me be more specific, there is no dispute about any place that mentions the prophet or Zaid or Abu Jahal or refers to Abu Bakr or Hazrat Aisha. However, every place that the shia say refers to Ali can be disputed. How can Allah allow this to happen to someone so great?

So, the Qur'an is not revealed in a style that gives importance to people only with mention of their names. And there are plenty of verses which relate directly or indirectly to Ali ibn Abi Talib.

This is only in shia fantasyland.

By the way, I acknowledge that you worship Ali and consider him to be Allah as Hanif clarified in his post. We do not have to keep doing this anymore.

Here is a verse that I heard yesterday during Isha Namaz that can be translated to refer to Ali, when it is not. By the way, this interpretation is purely my creation. I have never heard any shia interpret this verse as such. Although they might've already. I am giving you an example of how the words of the Quran are being played with.

إِنَّا أَنذَرْنَاكُمْ عَذَابًا قَرِيبًا يَوْمَ يَنظُرُ الْمَرْءُ مَا قَدَّمَتْ يَدَاهُ وَيَقُولُ الْكَافِرُ يَا لَيْتَنِي كُنتُ تُرَابًا

shia interpretation - .....and he who has denied the truth will say - "Oh would that I had believed in Ali"!!!

[sixfeetunder]

That is an intellectually dishonest argument. The entire Quran was revealed to the prophet (saw). The prophet is referred to in the Quran dozens of time. The prophet is spoken to by Allah in the Quran dozens of time. Even I have been referred to in the Quran. But a person so great, that the he becomes a gauge for the greatness of God, is not mentioned once in the Quran? We have to arrive at him through convoluted interpretations?? Let me be more specific, there is no dispute about any place that mentions the prophet or Zaid or Abu Jahal or refers to Abu Bakr or Hazrat Aisha. However, every place that the shia say refers to Ali can be disputed. How can Allah allow this to happen to someone so great?

We know that the Prophet is referred to dozens of times. But you spoke about being referred to by name and hence I said he is referred by name only 5 times. Similarly, If Hazrat Ali is not referred to by name, it doesn't matter because that is not the style of the Quran. He is referred to plenty of times, according to both Sunni and Shia sources. You said "Every place that the Shia say refers to Ali can be disputed". Well, it is not disputed by classical and traditional Sunni sources. If you start researching in an unbiased way, you will find out. But the problem is that you don't want to remove your Wahhabi reading glasses even for a while. Wahhabis allow this to happen to someone so great, not Allah!

So, the Qur'an is not revealed in a style that gives importance to people only with mention of their names. And there are plenty of verses which relate directly or indirectly to Ali ibn Abi Talib.

This is only in shia fantasyland.

By the way, I acknowledge that you worship Ali and consider him to be Allah as Hanif clarified in his post. We do not have to keep doing this anymore.

No, it is not Shia fantasy land. Great Sunni classicists give Ali due importance and acknowledge the verses which were revealed with him in context. Discrediting Ali (a.s) every time and everywhere is Nasibi land!

As for Hanif's statements, he is responsible for what he writes. You better ask him rather than tickling my funny bone.

[anajmi]

salim pointed out one instance which refers to Ali and that was disputed. I have referred to quite a few translations and do not find any author commenting on that verse referring to Ali. If you can show me a sunni alim who confirms with your interpretation of that ayah, I would appreciate it. You are also welcome to point out other instances and we will go through them one by one.

Great Sunni classicists give Ali due importance and acknowledge the verses which were revealed with him in context.

Please post those ayahs. I am sure you have them handy.

As for Hanif's statements, he is responsible for what he writes. You better ask him rather than tickling my funny bone.

Well, do you disagree with him? Do you disagree with the shia version of meraj where the prophet (saw) saw Allah's hand and saw that it had the same ring as that worn by Ali? Considering the fact that Allah is not supposed to be anthrowhatever?

[sixfeetunder]

salim pointed out one instance which refers to Ali and that was disputed. I have referred to quite a few translations and do not find any author commenting on that verse referring to Ali. If you can show me a sunni alim who confirms with your interpretation of that ayah, I would appreciate it. You are also welcome to point out other instances and we will go through them one by one.

Great Sunni classicists give Ali due importance and acknowledge the verses which were revealed with him in context.

Please post those ayahs. I am sure you have them handy.

Well, I do not have them handy. And I would not like to copy-paste from a Shia site. A simple google search can take you there anyway. There are some famous verses about which there is no dispute among the Sunni and Shia. Then there are a few verses to which some Sunnis agree and some disagree. Also, I used to play ringa ringa roses as a child and I'm a child no more. If you think nothing in the Quran relates to Ali (a.s), good (or too bad) for you.

As for Hanif's statements, he is responsible for what he writes. You better ask him rather than tickling my funny bone.

Well, do you disagree with him? Do you disagree with the shia version of meraj where the prophet (saw) saw Allah's hand and saw that it had the same ring as that worn by Ali? Considering the fact that Allah is not supposed to be anthrowhatever?

I have not read much about Shia version of Meraj. I reject any anthropomorphic depiction of God. So, any description of Allah's hand with a ring or his foot in Bukhari's hell can be put to rest.

[anajmi]

I have not read much about Shia version of Meraj.

I am surprised. You should. Then it will become even easier for you to reject the shia faith that Ali is Allah.

If you think nothing in the Quran relates to Ali (a.s),

Correct. We have interpretations that say that a certain ayah refers to Ali and that is all.

[anajmi]

Well, I do not have them handy.

Well, then we can put this to rest that there are all these ayahs referring to Ali. When you find them, let me know.

[Muslim First]

References to Hazrat Ali(A.S.) in the Holy Qur'an
http://www.imamhussain.net/Prophet0/Pro ... Quran.html

[Muslim First]

Some Muslims find Hazarat Ali in Hindu word "ॐ " please look carefully Hindy 'OM' symbol,
you can see clearly half moon on top of word 'om' (an Islamic symbol of moon) and half word of Arabic word 'ALIF' if you turned it over or up sight down. .