Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

[asad]

@Adam,

Can you elaborate on Khumus. If its a fard then how come its being asked now only. My aamil calculates one fifth of my salary multiply by 12. How fair and feasible is this calculation of paying 20% of your salary.

People are cribbing about 2.5%, imagine 20%.

[Doctor]

Daimul Islam, Volume I, Page 376, 1st Paragraph: "Imam ber-haq nahi he (zuhoor nahi) to unko (mumineen ko) Imam ki talash karni chahiye aur unke saath rehna chahiye aur unhi ko zakat dena chahiye".

Daimul Islam, Volume I, Page 383, Chapter: Zakat on four legged farm animals, Last paragraph: "Aapne (Imam Jaffer sadik a.s. ne) zakat ki wasool'yabi me sakhti karne se aur jabardasti wasool karne se mana farmaya he."

Zakat & Dawoodi Bohra Youth (Progressives) -
1. Per Daimul Islam, zakat can only be collected by Imam. Mr. Adam is misrepresenting fact and writing lie indeed by using word "haq na sahib" than "Imam".

2. Fatimi Hakmi Dai Ahmed bin Mohammed Neshapuri R.A. has wrote eighty (80) conditions in his book on "Who can be Dai" / "Dai kon ho sakta he" - Mr. Adam prove from this book that Dai Mutlaq is authorized to collect Zakat on behalf of Imam during seclusion of Imam?

3. As Imam is in seclusion so, the 1/8 share of zakat collector is muted. Now, the other seven category should be equally paid or 1/7th to each party. Mumineen resides in different geographies; many times it is practically difficult to find all the seven categories (deserving people) in one location. Dawoodi Bohra Youth mumineen on their own personal/individual basis calculate 2.5% zakat per command in Daimul Islam chapter on zakat and give full zakat amount to some or to all seven categories whom they can search with reasonable efforts and keeping records of what they did. When Imam-uz-zaman will do zuhoor and he or his representative when will inquire about zakat we Bohra Youth mumineen will show our records - if Imam or their representative accept it then okay otherwise we have to pay zakat again per their command.

4. Forum members have contended that Abde Bohras (Shabab) pay only Vajibaat and box of zakat is left empty. So, no Abde Bohras are paying zakat.

5. Zakat is self determined, a person can have loss some year but Kothar/Aamil will by default forcefully demand incremental amount than previous year. Individual must tell his zakat but ground reality is Kothar/Aamil forcefully without check by default demand for incremental money! It is against the command of Imam Jaffer Sadik mentioned in 2nd para of this post.

Conclusion: Dawoodi Bohra Youth (progressives) pay zakat as per Fatimi shariyat. But Abde Bohras (Shabab) do NOT pay zakat.

[Adam]

FINALLY. A Proggy finally answering.

Daimul Islam, Volume I, Page 376, 1st Paragraph: "Imam ber-haq nahi he (zuhoor nahi) to unko (mumineen ko) Imam ki talash karni chahiye aur unke saath rehna chahiye aur unhi ko zakat dena chahiye".

This point is confirmed. That the Imam collects the Zakat. This is accordance to the Quran. (The "others" might want to disagree, but right now, we aren't addressing them).

DB belief is that the Dai Muthlaq is the sole representative of the Imam, and will collect the Zakat during Satr.

Proggies had a problem from the 47th or 51st Dai, and probably didn't pay Zakat to them. BUT, they did pay to the DAIs before them. (About Zakat to Dai, refer Syedi Sadiqali Sahebs Nashiat)

Double standards and confusion for the Proggies? I believe so.[/color]

[Adam]

Asad.
Please take your post to a relevant thread.
We are not talking about Khumus, or how Zakat is calculated, or other justification.
This thread is only an inquiry about who the Proggies give Zakat to, because their practices are at odds with the books they CLAIM to follow.

[asad]

Asad.
Please take your post to a relevant thread.
We are not talking about Khumus, or how Zakat is calculated, or other justification.
This thread is only an inquiry about who the Proggies give Zakat to, because their practices are at odds with the books they CLAIM to follow.

Adam,

Their is a set pattern in your posts. You start from a very high end and then thrash every thing which dosent confirm to your beliefs, when on this board itself people have proved to you that People you claim to protect have been caught lieing, smuggling, cheating and embezzling on different counts, so your faith or i must say blind faith needs some correction.

You started this thread with sole intention to prove that only YOU are paying zakat and Progressives are not paying anything. Different people have countered it with different explanations but you are hell bent on proving everyone wrong because they are not paying it to the dai. Now the question arises are Dawoodi Bohra's paying zakat ?? again many people have posted on the same thread that they pay wajebaat and no one asks about their zakat, So can you please answer who puts the amount in zakat column, what percentage of wajebat is put in as zakat.

[Adam]

2.5% Zakat.
So simple.

[SBM]

2.5% Zakat.
So simple.

And where did you get this 2.5% if I am not mistaken this amount was decided by one of the Khalifas who gets Laanat from you and your Chellas and if I am mistaken then correct me.

[progticide]

2.5% Zakat.
So simple.

And where did you get this 2.5% if I am not mistaken this amount was decided by one of the Khalifas who gets Laanat from you and your Chellas and if I am mistaken then correct me.

SBM,
Above comment shows how little you know your own faith....Maybe your guru Mr. Mubarak, appearing above as Doctor in this thread, may help you.

Mubarak a.k.a Doctor a.k.a Badrijanab a.k.a Sajauddin Bagwala a.k.a Mnoorani,
How about some quote from the Daaim itself to help your shaagird SBM understand how does one arrive at 2.5%?

[anajmi]

This point is confirmed. That the Imam collects the Zakat. This is accordance to the Quran.

A lie attributed to the Quran. Please post an ayah of the Quran which says that Zakat can only be given to the Imam.

[anajmi]

Since the abde idiot has failed to respond, we can safely conclude that he is a liar attributing lies to the Quran.

[Adam]

Why you in such a hurry?

[9:103]
(To the Prophet)
"Take alms (Zakat) of their wealth, wherewith thou mayst purify them and mayst make them grow,"

Again, this is off topic. I was just curious as to Who the Proggies give Zakat to. They don't follow the Daim ul Islam. Simple as that.

[anajmi]

That ayah is addressed to the prophet (saw). Bohra Imamat started from Imam Hassan. So an ayah addressed to the prophet (saw) does not apply to the Imam.

[Humsafar]

I was just curious as to Who the Proggies give Zakat to. They don't follow the Daim ul Islam. Simple as that.

We are curious why you abdes give your zakat to thieves.

[MurtazaVds]

We are curious why you abdes give your zakat to thieves.

No way Humsafar we (Abdes) are not giving the zakat to you proggies(thieves). Dnt worry

[porus]

That ayah is addressed to the prophet (saw). Bohra Imamat started from Imam Hassan. So an ayah addressed to the prophet (saw) does not apply to the Imam.

Daimul Islam does indeed use 9:103 and states that it refers to zakaat. (Quran itself is not clear on this because 9:103 refers to purifying sadaqa, not all the wealth of the giver, which zakaat is supposed to do). It goes on to say that the obligation to offer zakaat to Imam did not end after the death of the Prophet. Daimul Islam supposts this contention not by reference to the Quran but by pointing to tradition.

What is clear is that Abu Bakr continued to collect zakaat during his caliphate and enforced it during the al-ridda wars. In this, he was supported by none other than Ali ibn Abi Talib. Daimul Islam glosses over this inconvenient fact and continues to state that zakaat should be paid only to rightful Imams.

However, Muslim central authority is now splintered and every sect has a self-appointed collector of zakaat.

Muslims, including Progressives, do not question the need to offer zakaat to a central authority. They question the means of calculation of zakaat dues and the accountability of their distribution. It is important to point out that zakaat amount has specific method of calculation. It is a tax. It is not the same as sadaqa, which is a non-obligatory offering of charity.

As it has been pointed out, Bohras do not calculate zakaat but offer it as a part of negotiable amount which includes 'enforced' and Islamically illegal contribution for the Dai and other divines. In addition, there is no transparency in the distribution. Thus there is a double whammy of unIslamic practice. No appropriate calculation of zakaat and no accountability.

Coming back to 9:103, how did Prophet purify the wealth of zakaat giver? Actually, it was purified by the giver by feeling certain that his deed was accepted by the Prophet as commanded by God and in addition by seeing the transparent distribution of his dues in accordance with God's commands.

In the case of Bohras, zakaat is not offered as properly calculated amount and waajebaat is offered with enormous resentment not least because it is illegally enforced. And Bohras will have to wait till eternity to obtain accounting for distribution.

[anajmi]

The abde idiots contend that the Imam/Dai is not required to give accounts of the Zakat. Where did they come up with this idea from?

[porus]

Thanks porus bhai ,I have two query regarding zakat.Today our vaezin told us about khumus that you should pay khumus 20% of your profit.Means if you get 1000rs. daily profit you should pay 200rs. as khumus..Is it true as per daim?
Second they are collecting zakat from student of madrasa & msb not less then 52rs. per student from lower kg to 10std. .When i asked to mullasaheb how a student not earn anything valid for zakat then he answered me that they should pay zakat as zakatul ilm.Is there any sentence in daim that zakat should pay for have a ilm?Please clarify

Let me deal with your second query first. There is no such thing as zakaat al-ilm. Aamils generally are knowledgeable. However this particular Aamil is dishonest. I have come across many of his type. Be wary of them. Zakaat is offered on earnings acquired with your 'sweat of the brow and with dust on the face, as was done by Ali'. The underlined quote is from Daimul Islam (Poonawala translation).

As for your first query, Quran refers to khums in surat al-anfal (8:41). Khums refers to a fifth of 'ghanimat' which is a gain as a result of war or an unexpected windfall such as finding a buried treasure. (It does not apply to inheritance). The khums, according to the Quran, should be paid to Prophet and traditionally by consensus to a Muslim government. Daimul Islam refers to an incident in the Chapter on Jihad where a khums is applicable only to war booty.

Some Ithnasharis are of the view that khums appplies to all earnings. This is in addition to zakaat. As far as I am aware, this has not been the view held historically by Bohras. It now appears that Kothar's mouth is watering at this Ithnashari interpretation and they are seeking to apply it.

Quran has already defined one of zakaat's recipients to be the poor and needy. 8:41 also applies khums to the poor and needy. Quran cannot use two terms for the same tax. I believe that Quran intends the khums to be an occasional occurrence and I think it applies only to sudden gain (ghanimat) and not to all earnings. However expect your Aamils to wriggle some more cash out of you. I think that is extremely dishonest.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro Adam,

Suppose you face a similar scenario as mentioned below, then what would you do :-

You are in the habit of giving alms to a poor man who sits at the street corner on a daily basis whilst going to the office. Suddenly one late night you happen to pass by the same street and you find that man having drugs and gambling with his friends.

The next morning will you continue giving him alms with the neeyat that you are doing your duty of helping the poor and it is now left to Allah (swt) to judge ? Will giving alms to the man even after knowing that your charity is being misused garner you any sawab ? Will Allah (swt) not take you to task for not using your aql ?

[ghulam muhammed]

2.5% Zakat.

So simple.

Ask the abdes how SIMPLE it is !!!

[anajmi]

Daimul Islam does indeed use 9:103 and states that it refers to zakaat. (Quran itself is not clear on this because 9:103 refers to purifying sadaqa, not all the wealth of the giver, which zakaat is supposed to do). It goes on to say that the obligation to offer zakaat to Imam did not end after the death of the Prophet. Daimul Islam supposts this contention not by reference to the Quran but by pointing to tradition.

This is precisely the reason why Allah says in the Quran (and I have quoted this a couple of times in the last couple of days)

2:4 And who believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon thee, [O Prophet,] as well as in that which was bestowed before thy time: for it is they who in their innermost are certain of the life to come!

If we remove the obligations set by the Daim and go back to the Quran, we get rid of these man made boundaries that we have set for ourselves and go back to giving zakat as Allah intended us to give in the first place.

[Adam]

PORUS

They question the means of calculation of zakaat dues and the accountability of their distribution.

The Daim quoting the Ahle Bayt says that it is the givers responsibility to give to the Imam.
And it is the Imams responsibility to take. He is not accountable to the people.
You quote from Daim, but comfortably ignore the complete text.

If the people don't want to give to him because don't trust him, then why do they do they follow him as their leader in the first place?
They are free to follow their own leader, whoever it may be.
Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin TUS is our leader.
There must be a leader to collect the Zakat. (According to the Quran). Their zakat isn't counted if they don't give it to this leader.
This is according to the Quran and Fatimi beliefs.
The Proggies, by not following this are practicing at odds with Fatimi/DB beliefs.

[mnoorani]

PORUS

They question the means of calculation of zakaat dues and the accountability of their distribution.

The Daim quoting the Ahle Bayt says that it is the givers responsibility to give to the Imam.
And it is the Imams responsibility to take. He is not accountable to the people.
You quote from Daim, but comfortably ignore the complete text.

If the people don't want to give to him because don't trust him, then why do they do they follow him as their leader in the first place?
They are free to follow their own leader, whoever it may be.
Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin TUS is our leader.
There must be a leader to collect the Zakat. (According to the Quran). Their zakat isn't counted if they don't give it to this leader.
This is according to the Quran and Fatimi beliefs.
The Proggies, by not following this are practicing at odds with Fatimi/DB beliefs.

EVERY BODY GIVE ZAKAAT / VAJEBAAT TO MOLA ONLY. THEY WILL BUY ONE MORE HOTEL LIKE AMBASSADOR AND SELL MORE ALCOHOL TO MAKE MORE MONEY. WITH MORE MONEY THEY WILL TAKE BETTER CARE OF MUMINEEN.

[anajmi]

There must be a leader to collect the Zakat. (According to the Quran). Their zakat isn't counted if they don't give it to this leader.

Can you please quote the ayah of the Quran which says that there must be a leader to collect the zakat and the zakat isn't counted if they don't give it to this leader?

[SBM]

There must be a leader to collect the Zakat. (According to the Quran). Their zakat isn't counted if they don't give it to this leader.

Can you please quote the ayah of the Quran which says that there must be a leader to collect the zakat and the zakat isn't counted if they don't give it to this leader?

Br. Anajmi
As per Abde's: Syedna is Bolta Quran so please do not keep on asking about the Ayah from Quran, According to current Abde's limited knowledge (some exceptions) they will tell you since Syedna is Bolta Quran and by extension his appointed Aamil, their words are good enough so you will never get any refrence and if you do from Adam and company it will be twisted to meet their criteria.
Asking them to quote Ayah from Quran is like "Bhens key Aage Bansri Bajaana" you will never get a straight answer,
FOR ADAM AS PER YOUR DEFINATION ZAKAT HAS TO BE GIVEN TO A LEADER AND THE LEADER DECIDES SO I DO GIVE IT TO A LEADER AND HE DISTRIBUTES
TO THE NEEDY NOW DO YOU KNOW WHO IS MY LEADER?..............IT IS ME AND I DECIDE HOW TO DISTRIBUTE TO THE NEEDY.......

[Adam]

DO YOU KNOW WHO IS MY LEADER?..............IT IS ME AND I DECIDE HOW TO DISTRIBUTE TO THE NEEDY.......

There we go. Nonsensical answers once again.
This just shows how you would have acted during the time of the Prophet.
Disregarded his leadership and go your own egotistical ways.

[anajmi]

Since the abde idiots haven't been able to provide an ayah of the Quran which prohibits the giving of zakat to anyone other than a leader, we can safely conclude that this is a lie that has been attributed to the Quran.

[SBM]

Adam-Disregarded his leadership and go your own egotistical ways.

And how do you explain Alavi Bohra-Sulemani Bohra and so on, It can be argued that Dais of Dawoodi Bohra had their own egotistical ways and that is why
they departed from the Dawat to form their own group.

[Humsafar]

With apologies to Ghalib....
ye masaail-e-zakat, ye tera kirdaar zahid
hum tujhe hi paisa dete jo na haramkhor hota

[ghulam muhammed]

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=7446

[ghulam muhammed]

There must be a leader to collect the Zakat. (According to the Quran). Their zakat isn't counted if they don't give it to this leader.
This is according to the Quran and Fatimi beliefs.

Dont mince words........... say "It is according to the Quran AS PER Fatimi Beliefs". Which means, "Quran as understood by the Fatimids".