Homosexuality and child abuse

[Bohra spring]

I think to do justice to reform movement we need to discuss topics that affect most households n modern times . bohras being shy are reluctant to discuss and resolve maters publicly. I also don't have confidence in kothars capability to systematically address this. Let us hope we discuss as a United ..this is not PDB or Abde issue ..it is a community issue.

This topic is to discuss homosexuality . As a growing youth I am familiar of a few teenagers who were gay and associated with similar gay or girlish kids. Is this where homosexuality is introduced. Unfortunately we taunted the teens and this pushed them into a corner.

We will have homosexuals and how do we deal with them when our religions is very firm with these issues. However in western society we cannot do anything that is is seen as discrimination . I am not suggesting we excommunicate them but we have not found a way to deal with these issues. I read in another topic these homosexuals are forming their own societies and religious places, is this the answer?

I am not aware of lesbian or bisexual incidences, but that does not mean it is impossible to happen in Bohra society. As children they like experimenting and if they do some will try it once, if they keep on trying they can feel that is their destiny. So how do we manage such changes in society .

I am also aware of a few married men in East Africa where I grew up, who were known to target male kids , I am aware of timid kids were touched in private parts by these men , who would ensure they were crowding in Bohra gatherings around children . I and my friends were always conscious about these 2 men. In western society this would be a serious crime.

We have young children in Jamia and completely unregulated madrasa. Scout groups , how safe are these groups..when one reads media ..in general society , these groups are areas where such incidents happen. Hence parents ensure volunteers are screened yet in Bohras we leave it to fate and faith.

I know these are difficult topics but hopefully we can share how to manage these issues when we have our own displaying such characters.

[Smart]

Bro Bohra Spring,
You are mixing two different issues. Homosexuality and Child Abuse. They don't go hand in hand. Not all homosexuals ( or even a large majority of them) are child abusers, on the other hand not all heterosexuals are above board. Child abusers are found irrespective of their sexual orientation.

Do you want to suppress homosexuality or child abuse or both?

[Bohra spring]

Smart sorry for mixing up topics and I agree there are 2 issues

I have witnessed homosexual child abuse, that is where older men are attracted to little boys. To your point that is criminal and should be exposed and destroyed unfortunately the culprits are in Kenya and are mainstream bohras, I was a witness to them stalking boys 20-30 years ago , all we did was verbally expose them and threatened them, .

Like wise I am not directly aware of adults abusing young girls or have never heard stories , but from what I read in western society , I would not trust all the the kakjia , mamaji, dadaji who act as guardians to little children. I know this is quite confronting accusation .

About consenting homosexuality between adults, I was intending to hear what the community thinks how to manage it, especially in western countries where it is legal and more and more acceptable human behaviour. The Cristian church is also struggling with it but recently realised it has to be acceptable otherwise people will be divided.

[zinger]

Smart sorry for mixing up topics and I agree there are 2 issues

I have witnessed homosexual child abuse, that is where older men are attracted to little boys. To your point that is criminal and should be exposed and destroyed unfortunately the culprits are in Kenya and are mainstream bohras, I was a witness to them stalking boys 20-30 years ago , all we did was verbally expose them and threatened them, .

Like wise I am not directly aware of adults abusing young girls or have never heard stories , but from what I read in western society , I would not trust all the the kakjia , mamaji, dadaji who act as guardians to little children. I know this is quite confronting accusation .

About consenting homosexuality between adults, I was intending to hear what the community thinks how to manage it, especially in western countries where it is legal and more and more acceptable human behaviour. The Cristian church is also struggling with it but recently realised it has to be acceptable otherwise people will be divided.

Hi BS, again as Smart pointed out, child abuse can be both, homo and hetro sexual.

if i was in your place, i would not have just verbally expose them and threaten them but beaten them to an inch of their lives. there was this case of the sunni madrassa teacher too 6 months ago who was caught raping a 7 or 8 year old girl. that pervert bastard should have been beaten to an inch of his life too

[zinger]

As for homosexuality, i dont think you will hear any other collective community response other than "its a sin and they shall burn in hell"

Homosexuality is a sin in pretty much all the religions (not so sure if Hinduism has it or not), although there is a pretty valid argument about why did God allow homosexuality to exist if it is a sin, to begin with.

JC i believe is gay. he may be able to discuss this further with you.

As for my stand.... well... i dont know.... all i do know is that yes, if a man is not going to be happy being married to a woman, then he should not be forced to marry a woman and destroy 2 lives.

let him live his life the way he wants to and then he can answer God in his own way.

its a dicey topic this one, can get extremely volatile.

Personally, i feel that it is wrong, but thats only because it is against the natural order of things of male and female, yin and yang and all, the way i have been taught... but then again, this is my pre-conditioning, my ingrained beliefs and prejudices speaking

[Safiuddin]

Bohra Spring,

Why is it necessary to "manage" homosexuality? Should heterosexuality or bisexuality be similarly "managed"?
You bring up the issue of human sexuality as if it's any of your business (or anyone else) to comment on.
You have preconceived notions that homosexuality begins with experimentation and anyone displaying
non-traditional behaviour patterns must be gay. Your post also doesn't hide the hatred and prejudice you are trying to conceal.
Based on your post, if you weren't in a western society would you then consider discrimination?
I suggest you let others live their own sexual lives and
take a good look into the mirror and ask yourself why others' sexuality is such a burning concern for you.

[JC]

Bro Zinger, yes I am and proud..!!! I am what I am!

Homosexuality is neither sin nor crime...!!! I had discussed this at length at some other thread awhile back. Human beings cannot claim to know or have answers to 'everything' and I believe everyone agrees to this. If this is sin (and there are other sins) WHY God has allowed it to exist?! This can be debated as God has indeed 'allowed' so many other sins .... even Kufr..!! We however 'believe' we are commiting NO SIN and this is not a crime for a man to love another man and be sexually attracted to same sex. Time has come to accept this fact that love or sex between two consenting adult male is no sin or crime; more and more people are coming to recognize this and lately Pope and Christainity has accepted this. It is better Judaism and Islam accept it too.

Noone can BECOME 'straight' or 'gay' .... we are BORN that way and we have to live with it. For decades human race has tried to 'cure' gays but lately have come to terms that this is NO disease which can be cured .... we are what we are .... this is natural to us, this is a feeling, an emotion, a mindset. If you like or love a flower can any medicine or thearapy change it so that you hate it?

On that other hand child abuse is totally different and can be commited by straight and gays both.

[badrijanab]

Bro Zinger, yes I am and proud..!!! I am what I am!

Homosexuality is neither sin nor crime...!!! I had discussed this at length at some other thread awhile back. Human beings cannot claim to know or have answers to 'everything' and I believe everyone agrees to this. If this is sin (and there are other sins) WHY God has allowed it to exist?! This can be debated as God has indeed 'allowed' so many other sins .... even Kufr..!! We however 'believe' we are commiting NO SIN and this is not a crime for a man to love another man and be sexually attracted to same sex. Time has come to accept this fact that love or sex between two consenting adult male is no sin or crime; more and more people are coming to recognize this and lately Pope and Christainity has accepted this. It is better Judaism and Islam accept it too.

Noone can BECOME 'straight' or 'gay' .... we are BORN that way and we have to live with it. For decades human race has tried to 'cure' gays but lately have come to terms that this is NO disease which can be cured .... we are what we are .... this is natural to us, this is a feeling, an emotion, a mindset. If you like or love a flower can any medicine or thearapy change it so that you hate it?

On that other hand child abuse is totally different and can be commited by straight and gays both.

@ WC,

Now I understood why you become Sunni from being Bohra mumin. Because above characters are not of Mumin but of non-mumineen.

Your sin deserve double punishment. And your punishment begins by Allah turning you away from his beloved worshippers, the Bohras.

In Quran, read the punishment levied to the people of Loo't. You and alike will meet same fate. Inshallah.

[JC]

Badrijanab, I totally understand you; however I do not expect you to understand me at all.

You BJ live in a well, I on the other hand live in an ocean.

[SBM]

badrijanab
Posts: 690
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:19 pm
@ WC,
Now I understood why you become Sunni from being Bohra mumin. Because above characters are not of Mumin but of non-mumineen.
Your sin deserve double punishment. And your punishment begins by Allah turning you away from his beloved worshippers, the Bohras.
In Quran, read the punishment levied to the people of Loo't. You and alike will meet same fate. Inshallah.

Wow: What JC chose, I may not agree with his lifestyle, As per our Islamic belief, it is sin but again I am going to let Allah be the Judge for his acts.
But to see the venom spewed here is unbelievable. Badrijanab last time I checked, the pristine Bohras are reading the same Quran which Sunni are reading and that is Quran which is complied by none other than Hazarat Usman, unless you Badrijanab has another Quran like Ahmadiyas aka Qadyani have, and if that is the case then you Badrijanab is not a MUMIN forget about being Muslim by any stretch of imagination.
So Badrijanab, just like any Dawoodi Bohra-Ithna Ashri or any Sunni they all follow the same Quran which clearly talks about people of Loo't but it also says the let Allah be judge on the day of Qayamah, not you, not a Dai nor a Imam.

And your punishment begins by Allah

And how about Allah being Raheem and Kareem too, does Badrijanab only reads the Quran of punishment and not of Rehmat and Karamats too, Does it ever occur to you that when Allah can put the light of Imaan, people like Hur who came to fight Imam Hussain, he turned and become the Martyr of Karbala. May be instead of asking for punishment, you could have offered the prayers and hope that Allah may help JC, after all it is Allah who can do KUN FA YAKUN

[JC]

Thank you Bro SBM.

The only thing I ask being a gay is not to hate me because I am gay .......... you rightly said leave this to Allah. Treat me as a human being, if you believe I have 'chosen' to be (which I disagree) then let it be and give me respect and space I deserve.

People like Badrijanab wiegh everything in their 'own' scales and will never see any flaws in their scales. If one has put on glasses with Blue lenses it is obvious that they would see everything blue.

[Bohra spring]

Safiudin your anger is hiding some issues that may have been touched.

I am not biased..., Within secular life , I am able to handle it quite comfortably.

JC I respect you and admire your courage to discuss with an open mind , however I apologise if you were exposed unwillingly or accidentally by zinger.

the purpose of bringing this topic of managing it is from a religious context ..how do we address homosexuality. If someone says he is one how do we consider his faith, participation in Islamic society , etc.

As an example will you let two Bohra boys get "married" , will you allow them a position in jamaat, can he pray in a saaf. We cannot continue practising Islamic traditions that discriminate them.

If a son or daughter experiments how do parents respond, surely you are not suggesting we turn a blind eye. Or are you saying we encourage them to continue exploring. So yes it is my business if upto 25% of people as statistics say have homosexual tendencies , which mean 1of 4 contributors on this site could be homosexual .

So on one side we have people with Badrijanab views who are basing their beliefs on interpretations of scriptures an I agree he is right to define his views , while another side we have realities of modern lifestyle which I am leaning towards. It's a tough topic.

Both erotic attraction and sexual behavior between members of the same sex has always been a recognized phenomenon in Islamic Societies.[4] However, homosexuality is strictly forbidden in Muslim ethics, it is considered an unnatural act.[5] Religious discourse tends to focus on sexual acts, which are unambiguously condemned.[4] The Qur'an refers explicitly refers to male-male relations within the context of Lot. The Story of Lot falls within the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah (Lūṭ), at 7:81–82; 11:77–83; 15:61; 21:74; 22:43; 26:165; 27:55; and 29:29 within the Qur'an.[6] At 26:165–173, the destruction of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah is often attributed to their sexual practices, although the Qur'an never explicitly says what those practices were but they are considered an abomination.[6]
Some jurists believe there should be severe punishments, such as death or floggings while others disagree.[5] Early Caliphs were known to have had both partners executed (in a variety of methods) but even with this precedent there is still no consensus for a punishment for homosexuality.[4] Other jurists believe that there is no punishment that will serve as an effective purgative for this act, and therefore its immorality precludes an earthly punishment.[5] Some jurists are so morally offended by homosexuality that just the discuss around it is cause for excommunication and anathematizing.[5] However, Muslim ethicists have yet to reach a consensus as to whether homosexuality is a socially constructed practice or part of biological, genetic predisposition.[5] Since sex is the biologically defined capacity of the human body and gender connotes the social significance attached to members of a particular sex, the idea of homosexuality would change the Muslim world.[7]
Islamic law establishes two categories of legal, sexual relationships: between husband and wife, and between a man and his concubine.[8] All other sexual relationships are considered zināʾ (fornication), including adultery and homosexuality, according to Islamic law and exegesis of the Qur'an.[8] There is no punishment for a man who sodomizes a woman because it is not tied to procreation.[8] However, other jurists insist that any act of lust in which the result is the injecting of semen into another person constitutes sexual intercourse.[8]
When it comes to literature expression of male homoerotic sentiment is acceptable.[4] Such love was generally seen as an asymmetrical relationship, between an adult male (the lover) and an adolescent boy (the beloved), clearly paralleling the power differential between men and women in heterosexual relationships.[4] This established three categories of homosexual relationships:
Active male-male lovers
Passive adolescent beloveds
Pathological and despised (adult males who sought out the passive role)

Some jurists viewed sexual intercourse as possible only for an individual who possesses a phallus.[9] Hence the definition of sexual intercourse relies on the entry of as little of the corona of the phallus into a partner’s orifice.[9] Since women do not possess a phallus and cannot have intercourse with one another, they are physically incapable of committing zināʾ.[9]

By the above context if we have accepted sexuality out side marriage as fact of life the community can accept homosexuality as fact of life. As I mentioned if we are happy to have sheiks who visit prostitutes , we should be fine to accept shiekhs as gay ! Is this acceptable change we are happy with?

I know it still considers homosexuals in the context of prostitutes, which in its own is a form of degradation. So yes I don't have answers ..but society will find its own position by choice or force

[zinger]

Hi JC, im sorry but i do believe that you have already clarified your sexual orientation on this site, but i did not wish to rake it up. my apologies, i never meant it to come out like that.

I will second what SBM and DBL say.

Your sexuality is your choosing. if it is wrong, then it will be between you and God on judgement day. Till then, live in peace

[zinger]

@ SBM

hmm... interesting post

just because JC happens to be one of you guys, his 'sin' is something that he needs to deal with....wow SBM what sweet words.

Had this been from a Dawoodi Bohra, i'm pretty sure you would have played judge jury and executioner and denounced him to hell fire then and there...

Nice set of double standards

This is just a case in point. with you too, like i mentioned earlier, the enemy of my enemy is my friend

[SBM]

@ SBM

hmm... interesting post

just because JC happens to be one of you guys, his 'sin' is something that he needs to deal with....wow SBM what sweet words.

Had this been from a Dawoodi Bohra, i'm pretty sure you would have played judge jury and executioner and denounced him to hell fire then and there...

Nice set of double standards

This is just a case in point. with you too, like i mentioned earlier, the enemy of my enemy is my friend

In you zest to criticize me,
CAN YOU PLEASE PROVIDE ONE POST WHICH YOU CAN FIND WHERE I HAVE SAID THIS TO ANYONE JUST ONE POST WHERE I HAVE BECOME JUDGE AND JURY. JUST ONE POST
LET US PUT YOUR MOUTH TO TEST..

[zinger]

@ SBM

hmm... interesting post

just because JC happens to be one of you guys, his 'sin' is something that he needs to deal with....wow SBM what sweet words.

Had this been from a Dawoodi Bohra, i'm pretty sure you would have played judge jury and executioner and denounced him to hell fire then and there...

Nice set of double standards

This is just a case in point. with you too, like i mentioned earlier, the enemy of my enemy is my friend

In you zest to criticize me,
CAN YOU PLEASE PROVIDE ONE POST WHICH YOU CAN FIND WHERE I HAVE SAID THIS TO ANYONE JUST ONE POST WHERE I HAVE BECOME JUDGE AND JURY. JUST ONE POST
LET US PUT YOUR MOUTH TO TEST..

there are numerous posts sbm bhai where, just cause it suits your agenda of bohra bashing, you have passed judgement. i would not wish to dig them out because both you and i have better things to do. it is better to leave and let go of some things and move on

[SBM]

there are numerous posts sbm bhai where, just cause it suits your agenda of bohra bashing, you have passed judgement. i would not wish to dig them out because both you and i have better things to do

No Please do not cop out. You accused me of Jury-Judge and Executioner and I want you to post that comment where I have been Jury-Judge and Executioner. Passing the judgment on Kothari Goons and their activities is one thing but I have never every ( in my memory) ever wished anyone ill will or taken the place of Almighty Allaha for punishment BTW I donot even know if JC is reformist or Abde. From his postings it seems that he still belongs to Abde Clan and may be just a fence sitter like a great majority of Abdes are. You are the one who assumed that he is Reformist just you assumed lot of things like Anajmi is Wahabbi without knowing his background. He has posted many times that his family is still in Abde fold and he does have a healthy relationship with his extended family. You also assumed that Anajmi is also the Admin or Moderator of this forum without even doing any back ground that shows a really shallowness of your thinking power and who can blame you after defending Kothari Goons and people like DBL who is playing on both side of spectrum what can be expected of you. May Allah give you Taufiq to be independent thinker and guide you to the correct path whatever that may be.
PLEASE I REQUEST OF YOU TO FIND SUCH A POSTING FROM ME WHERE I HAVE BEEN JURY-JUDGE AND EXECUTIONER SPECIALLY THE LAST ONE. otherwise you would have to eat crows (as a matter of speech)

[Bohra spring]

Ok someone decided to hijack this discussion, z you have a poor judgement of detecting my. Intent . Back to the point...are we ready to accept confessing homosexuals as equal humans within Bohra community?

Or are we going to force them to hide their preferences and live in fear of discrimination

Which jamaat will make the move first ?

This will be so challenging concept that requires a true reform of ideology. As mentioned before if it is proven which is not far by science the the sexuality is a natural instinct which means it is Gods or nurtures creation then we have to treat it with objective ness and as Islam says we should live as United and allows diversity. Hence they as naturally leaning homosexuals should be able to participate fully in community.

However if one decides to force a change due to personal desires then islam already states the consequences as it does for alcoholics or druggists .

[Humsafar]

Bohra Spring,
I understand where you are coming from, your intention is right. You are on a civilising mission, a mission to humanise every oddity of human behaviour. Although I applaud you effort, may I respectfully submit that this is not the right place or time to bring up the issues of sexuality, homosexuality, drugs etc. Where reform movement is concerned, these are non-issues. Even otherwise, these are not the problem that plague Bohra community. These are lifestyle issues which every conservative, traditional society must grapple with in these modern - or rather westernising - times. They are not unique to Bohras, and by highlighting them here an impression is being created as if reformists are concerned with these matters. We are not. By bringing up these issues here you are diluting the focus on the core issues of reform - you know what they are, I don't have to spell them out. What people do in their bedrooms is none of our business. Yes, FGM is a problem but then again it is a separate issue and much has been discussed about it already. So please, bring back the focus on the mafia clergy and its corrupt system. Let Bohras have freedom and dignity first.

[JC]

Thank you Bros Bohra Spring and SBM.

Yes I have openly said on this forum earlier at some other threads that I am gay; though I am not out as such.

I would with the policy of 'Don't Ask, Don't Act' ..... why do you need to know the sexual orientation of the person praying next to you in Jamat (Imamat)? Do you care if he is rich or poor, black or white, young or old, educated or not, thin or fat, Indian or Pakistani...?? You don't, correct? Once there was a time blacks were outcastes, today they are not, so why not treat us like that? I am not saying I will 'tell' my orientation to anyone; this is personal. When abdes (and me too) go to pay Wajebat (Kothari Taxes) do we declare we are Black or White, Rich or Poor, Educated or not, etc etc ...... so why to 'weigh' us by this yardstick??

Basically I am reformist (even to the extent that at times I have challanged settled Islamic values or understandings or practices) however I am not out. Due to various compulsions and reasons I am sitting on fence as a Kothari tax paying bohra (I however keep talking about debatable issues within my circle and people call me a 'rebel' - but yes I am within the fold, for now - for this you can call me hypocrite).

Bohra Spring asked - will bohras allow marriage between two boys, correct time is not ripe for this - we will have to wait till we reach that day when we will be able to decide this. Today I am not asking for marriage rights; or in fact any rights as gay. Give me my 'equal' rights and thats it (though marriage can be considered as equal right - but I will let go some of my rights as I believe time is not right or I was born at wrong time at wrong place).

[SBM]

Questions to all the scholars on this forum
Is being Homosexual is bigger sin or being Kafir or Shirk is being sin.
With my limited knowledge of Quranic teaching and learning, I understand SHIRK and Kufr is bigger sin and Allaha has promised hellfire for Kuffar while being follower of Loot, no such thing is mentioned (only punishment) some one can clarify. To clarify is Shirk and Kufr is bigger sin then homosexuality.
I wish Br Porus or Br Adam has shed some light on it Anajmi can jump on it as long as he keeps it civil and not get in any name calling please
Remember I have asked for Knowledgeable people only

[anajmi]

SBM,

One first needs to define what Kufr is and what Shirk is. There are multiple opinions. Kufr, according to some, is to deny the truth. Shirk is to associate partners with Allah.

So, if I were to deny anything revealed by Allah in the Quran, I can be deemed a kafir. If I associate a partner with Allah, I can be deemed a Mushrik. There is a fine line between the two. Knowingly insisting on being a mushrik can be said to cross over into kufr territory. So for example, Allah has clarified in the Quran that he is the king and owner of the day of judgment. In spite of this, if I were to say without so and so's signature even Allah cannot admit me into Jannah, then I am a mushrik probably crossing over into kafir territory.

Now, as far as homosexuality is concerned, I do not know if it is a choice or if it is nature that cannot be altered. A kleptomaniac feels the need to steal. But society doesn't ignore a kleptomaniac. Either you get treated, or you get punished. One can argue that kleptomania harms the society, but a gay individual does not. Probably true. I respect bro JC and I have absolutely no problem praying in a mosque with a gay individual whether I know about him being a gay or not. I have no right to tell him not to come to mosque and not to pray because if I do, I might be doing it against a person who might someday become more beloved to Allah than me. Who knows? However, I do have the right to tell him what is right and what is wrong. A right given to every muslim in the Quran.

[anajmi]

2:34
وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلاَئِكَةِ اسْجُدُواْ لآدَمَ فَسَجَدُواْ إِلاَّ إِبْلِيسَ أَبَى وَاسْتَكْبَرَ وَكَانَ مِنَ الْكَافِرِينَ

Allah says in this ayah that Iblis refused a sajda to the Adam and became from the kafireen. So we see from this ayah, that one doesn't need to be a disbeliever to be a kafir. Iblis was a staunch believer and still turned out to be from the kafireen.

A contemporary example is the Dai, who has proclaimed himself to be the Ilahul Ard. He makes people perform sajda to himself and makes them stand in front of him with folded hands. Kind of like the Pharoah did with his people. Hence, he can also be considered from amongst the kafireen.

7:80 AND [remember] Lot , when he said unto his people: "Will you commit abominations such as none in all the world has ever done before you?
7:81 Verily, with lust you approach men instead of women: nay, but you are people given to excesses!"

The above ayahs are a clear indication that Allah considers men lusting after men instead of women as an abomination. I am not sure if this ayah covers both, ones who have a choice and ones who don't or just the ones who have a choice. I will do more research.

[SBM]

Br Anajmi
I hope you got my drift where I was going with my argument of which is bigger sin, Homosexuality or associating some one with Allaha?
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you that I would have no problem either praying with them and as a matter of fact in our local community we have people who are still in the closet but do come to Masjid to pray and everyone knows about it but no one says anything except the Khaatib who did talk about the perils of such life but did not point any fingers and ask for Allaha's forgiveness and left it on Allaha to decide their fate.

[ghulam muhammed]

I found this piece on the net which is very interesting :-

Let us not superimpose our terrestrial intelligence upon The Divine Wisdom of The Maker.

This is a very significant point.

For practising Muslims who believe in divine wisdom and that the Quran is a book of guidance to all mankind, we should recognise that what is described as a sin in Quran is surely harmful to mankind. We should therefore put our best efforts to eliminate such sins from our system. Punishment may not be the best form or for that matter a form at all. It may require counselling. Such efforts are put in respect of alcoholism by the society. It is considered as a crime only when one intentionally drinks and drives which puts lives of others to risk. Unfortunately this distinction is not made in a Muslim society. Instead they arrive at some punishment say ten lashes for drinking alcohol despite the fact that Quran does not describe any such thing.

To arrive at the best efforts to eliminate such evils we should also analyse what makes them do things which are harmful to themselves and indirectly to society. Kleptomania, for example is a psychological disorder. We have to differentiate it from stealing for greed and amassing wealth. There are other disorders of psychological nature like the Oedipus complex. Homosexuality too is considered by psychoanalysts as a disorder and therefore can be cured by counselling unless one indulges in it as a sexual orgy. But if it turns out to be a genetic anomaly then it may have to be handled in a different way. So far molecular biologists have not found the so called “Gay gene”. But so was the case with “God Gene”. It was discovered only recently while mankind believed in God from time immemorial.

Unfortunately the Muslims instead of putting the Quranic views in the right perspective are trying to run away from it saying “do not bring Quran into picture, any personal harm is also a crime etc.”. Should we then charge a diabetic taking his cup of coffee with sugar for the crime of harming himself?

Thus far we have restricted our discussion on gay relationship to bed room only. The apprehension of religious people which I can appreciate is that this phenomena may not be restricted to bed room for long. As it has happened abroad the gays want to get married too properly as others do, throwing out of the window the very definition of marriage which is an
institution in which two people of opposite sex make their relationship legitimate duly recognised by the society and the state to have legitimate children who will be their legal heirs.

Today in India, a Nikah performed by an imam of a mosque is recognised as legally valid. In order for a religious act to be recognised by the state, it may have to fulfil certain conditions like maintaining a record etc. Once Gay marriages are recognised by the state, what will the poor Imam do if two boys come to him and demand that he performs their Nikah? Will the state derecognise the mosques from performing any Nikah? If the gays lodge a complaint with police, will the Imam be charged for not performing his duty?

I may be seeing ghosts where they do not exist. But we have to arm ourselves to see that such unpleasant situations do not arise.

[anajmi]

I hope you got my drift where I was going with my argument of which is bigger sin, Homosexuality or associating some one with Allaha?

Well, I tried to answer. Let me give you more specifics. A person who follows his or her own desires more than the wishes of Allah is committing shirk or when it comes to denying the truth, even kufr. It means you worship your nafs more than you worship Allah. I am sure you can arrive at your own conclusions.

[Bohra spring]

My comment ...Jc speaks for himself and that is his choice and individual freedom and I respect it, but this topic was generally for other gays. JCs expectations does not mean all gays should live discretely or not demand equal treatment in all community services. I cannot force the society but I can do my part to speak for them and if I cannot bring change sooner at least I can be open to the idea that all forms of human behaviour will be socially acceptable and acknowledged .

I like Anajmi's comment that one can pray in jamat and gays should not be socially discriminated. But what is not clear is what reaction will be received when someone openly states he is gay in congregation . Let us hope it is respectful and acceptance.

I have an issue with A comment that we limit the reform movement to couple of issues , why are we so low on confidence ...why do we fear we will loose support of abdes who find out we are a modern society and not just a transparent conservative orthodox community. For 50 years we are regurgitating those 2 ideas of transparency and accountability and fear any change in strategy will collapse the reform movement like a house of cards. I don't think so. Reformists need to take a big leap forward and better we have followers who join us with confidence and commitment for what we stand so they can carry the burden of reform too.

Our own Prophet tacked so many issues in his few decades completely transformed an Arab civilisation.

Let us move to the next type of homosexuality , how widespread is lesbianism and bisexuality in our community.

[anajmi]

at least I can be open to the idea that all forms of human behaviour will be socially acceptable and acknowledged .

If all forms of human behavior were to be socially acceptable and acknowledged, why was the prophet (saw) wasting his time delivering a message requiring humans to change their social behavior?

[Qutbi-Hero]

Questions to all the scholars on this forum

When you say "scholars" what do you mean exactly bro?

1) A person who has formally studied Islam for years, in a secular environment, and has passed the necessary examinations to receive an official qualification and is now a recognised authority on the subject with ongoing research

2) A person who has formally studied Islam for years, in a theological institution, and has learnt the details and intricacies of their chosen school of thought, reaching a stage where they are considered an authority on the subject or even a respected teacher of Islam with a wide following

3) A person who has informally learnt many aspects of Islam through reading certain books and talking to certain people, yet fully appreciates that he may have misunderstood or indeed may be entirely wrong... because only Allah knows best

4) A person who has read a few biased websites delivered to him from a Google search and now thinks he is a Prophet

Dude, the first two categories are called "scholars" - we have none on this forum, please do correct me if I'm wrong. The third category fits most of the Shias here to a lesser degree, and to a greater degree with good brothers like Porus, who was sadly driven away by our resident Sunni Snake. The fourth category fits your best friend Ana, the very same Sunni Snake who pushed Porus away from here.

In future SBM, don't use the word "scholar" - be more accurate and say you would like the "personal opinion" of other people who may have more knowledge - instead of inadvertently implying that certain members here are genuine experts, or worst of all, have the final word on anything about Islam.

All we do around here is express our "opinions" so lets not get carried away now okay!

[Qutbi-Hero]

Hold up, I notice Admin has deleted the awesome post I made before - what a shame as it was highly informative and entertaining lol! I'll quickly make the main points again :-

1) Many religions have scriptures which can be interpreted to be very condemning of homosexuality
2) Homosexuality most likely has a genetic, epigenetic and hormonal causation - so is not a matter of choice or free-will
3) Allah is just and merciful, so it seems inconsistent that He would punish anyone for something they had no control over
4) It is not for humans to decide - only Allah will judge who is worthy of Jannat and who is not

Personally speaking, I have no problems with gays and lesbians at all - it's none of my business so live and let live! I also think homosexuals getting married is a good thing for them and for society as a whole. However I do have a problem with the Western concept of being so public about homosexuality. Personal things of this nature should be kept private.

Anyway, its good to see you here JC dude - I've never met a gay Bohra and happily consider you my brother in Islam. Try and post more often here my friend.

Now I don't know what the "official" DB position is on this - but I do know that our closest theological relatives, the Ismailis, have a very similar view to my own above.