what is reformist jamaat planning now?

[Sikander]

what is reformist jamaat planning now?

they have been waiting gfor this time from years and year and now when right time has came they all have gone underground?

I am interested to know what are they planning or doing now?

what is going on? will they go and meet syedna Qutbuddin and discuss their conocern with him? or they will stick with negotiation with muffy camp?

[Mazakyo]

Nothing at the moment. Just scratching their b***s. Dont think anybody is interested. Most of the progressives don't really believe or care about hidden imam or dai. So they are least pushed.

[S. Insaf]

Bohras at cross road
Who would be the next Dai?
Mazoon or Mufaddal
As was expected, a rift has surfaced in the Dai's family between his Mazoon-e-Dawat, Sayedi Khuzema Qutbuddin Saheb and his second son, Mufaddal bhaisab. As during the life time of Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb failed to confer open and unambiguous Nass his Mazoon-e-Dawat. Now there are two claimants of Dai-ship, and the Bohras are in a state of confusion. Bohras are taking sides and they are showering abuses and curses on the other side. This is not expected from a cultured and civilized community.
Sayedi Khuzema Qutbuddin Saheb is claiming that the Nass was conferred on his by Sayedna Mohammad Burhanuddin Saheb in secrecy some 50 years back and he was asked to keep it a secret, whereas Mufaddal Bhaisab is claiming that Nass was conferred on him in the ICU of London hospital in front of only his other three brothers.
So now who would be the next Dai?
Mazoon or Mufaddal
In our Fatemi Dawat system three posts are the most important, Dai, Mazoon and Mukasir. Mazoon-e-Dawat is next to Dai who is raised to the post of Dai. This tradition is continued right from fist Dai Sayedna Zoeb bin Musa that the Mazoon-e-Dawat is raised to the position of Dai with Nass-e-Jali i.e. open and unambiguous Nass.
Every Dai has declared Nass on his Mazoon in his life time.
When our 46th Dai Sayedna Mohammad Badruddin died suddenly by food poisoning without declaring Nass on his Mazoon, after his death his Mukasir Sayedi Abdul Qadar Najmuddin claimed the Dai-ship there was lot of confusion and controversies in the community which resulted in the permanent divisions. With this practice of Mazoon being raised to the position of next Dai in mind, claim of Mazoon Saheb Sayedi Khuzema Qutbuddin Saheb appears to be valid, expect that the Nass on him is not Nass-e-Jali but it is a Nass-e-makhfi. The three functionaries of Dawat are expected to be religious guides of the faithful. They are expected to dominate and exploit the faithful but guide them as per shariah.
Unfortunately in last 100 years many things have changed in our community. The Mazoon-e-Dawat and Mukasir-e-Dawat have lost their importance and Bhaisahebs and Amils have become so strong and arrogant that they consider themselves equal to Dai.
The greed for easy money and absolute power has corrupted the entire Dawat system.
Every thing is priced including Namaz and Haj.
The restrictions of E-jamat card, smart card, clean card, online registration for participating in the community's functions, dress code, forceful collections of Wajebat, Sabil, Musallah space, Darees, Ziyafat, rasm-e-Saifee, Tiffin service, etc. were unknown to the community few years back.
Compelling faithful to submit to their dictates under threats of Jamatkharij, Baraat was never practiced in this community.
In the Dai-ship of last 50 Dais the local jamaats were quit independent and they used to control the local properties of the community and manage them independently.
The Dai never interfered in the local jamaat's affairs.
The Dai's duty was to educate and encourage Bohras to do good for the community and strictly follow Islamic principles and Ismaili doctrines.
During first and second world wars the property came in the community the Dais had encouraged the rich section of the society to invest part of their wealth on building masjids, musaferkhanas, madresas, hospitals etc. for the use of the community, that is why we find even today numbers of masjids, musaferkhanas, jamaatkhanas, madresas and hospitals in the community all over the world.
Earlier Dais used to spend their time in writing books for the benefit of the faithful, live humble and impart the same habit in their staff and faithful.
But today a single family of Dai has taken over control of all the aspects of the community. They have made Bohras their slaves.
Introduction of Misaq for Dai and Raza since Syedna Taher Saifuddin Saheb's time, has established dictatorship on the community resulting in increased suppression of individual freedom. Though it is not visible but there is under current resentment.
The Bohras are eagerly waiting for change.
Under the circumstances out of the two claimants we know the character of Mufaddal Bhaisab, he is ruthless and money-minded like a feudal lord. No good is expected from him.
If Mazoon-e-Dawat Khuzema bhai saheb Qutbuddin openly promises that:
1. He will adopt a liberal policy
2. Abolish Misaq for Dai, Baraat (excommunication, Wajebat and Sabil.
3. He will make local jamats independent,
5. He will stop extravagant revelries, big spending high-flying trips, system of Darees and Ziyafats'
6. He will allow local jamaats function independently,
7. He will give Aamils in the control of local jamats.
If Mazoon saheb promises that he will fulfil people popular demands, then only he will be able to pull a large numbers of suffering Bohras on his side.
The reformist Bohras will definitely support him as they are fighting for these reforms.

[Adam]

@Insaf
Re: Mazoon becoming Dai.
This shows your total lack on knowledge Fatemi/Bohra history.

It is not necessary for the Mazoon to become Dai.

A few examples I can quote off hand are:

- 3rd Dai Syedna Hatims Mazoon was Syd Mohammed bin Taher. However, he performs Nass on his son Syedna Ali.

- Syedi Shaikhadam Safiyuddin (Surat) - (Elder brother of Syedna Yusuf Najmuddin 42 and Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin 43), was the Mazoon of 5 Duat (41-42-43-44-45). Thus, FOUR times round, he remained Mazoon while another Saheb became Dai, and then he passed away in the 45th Dais time.

The Udaipuri Reformists and Youth always ignored the Misaq to the Dai saying they had given the Misaq to 52nd Dai Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA.
Now that the 53rd Dai is amoungst us, it's crunch time.

[ghulam muhammed]

I don't think that SKQ will support or have any alliance with reformists at present because if at all he does then he will be providing the much needed fodder to Muffy who will exploit this move to his advantage.

[Bohra spring]

GM is right strategically SKQ should not seek alliance with PDB, this will be used by SMS camp to claim victim , however since SKQ has clearly stated in his vision he is aligned to the reformist agenda any way.

Reformists need to ensure their actions facilitate the rise of sKQ, not sabotage or dilute his movement . But sKQ camp needs to know we are morally supporting him to replace SMS. He should know we are not his enemy. We should clearly state we are living 53rd as to be decided. That will help SKQ to not see us a threat and save their ammunition for SMS attacks. He has nothing to worry from our side.

Once SKQ comes to power , but likely is there will be a split with a minority following , we can review his agenda , if he delivers on his promises we can disband the reformist movement and embed as a new reformed community. But let us be real not all but most of our demands need to be met so let us not be hard headed.

[seeker110]

Still looking for a vegetarian wolf ?

[think]

knowledge is the legacy of the prophets, while wealth is the inheritance of the pharoh's.
you are to guard your wealth but knowledge guards you,
a man of wealth has many enemies, while a man of knowledge has many friends,
knowledge cannot be stolen.
money is the passport to everywhere but heaven.

[humanbeing]

I think, reformist jamat shall remain non aligned to any camp at present. It’s a political game now, the demands, struggle and patience of reformist will be diluted if they get tangled in this political warfare over sucession between SMS or SKQ camp.

Moreever, even this website shall remain neutral and allow fair debates from all sides. Most of the time we have seen, SMS camp get defeated in their own silly blabber, abusive outlook and cowardly withrawals.

[ghulam muhammed]

I feel this is the right time for reformists to approach SKQ and get his response with regard to their demands. This could atleast give them some idea as to how far he is committed to their cause and also whether he just shrugs off their demands and throws them out. In all likelihood he will not give anything in writing at present but one could atleast find out if he promises to look into the demands once he succeeds in overthrowing Muffy OR if he carves out a new sect. He may be tempted as he could increase his following by a few thousands which is not a small number for him in the present circumstances.

[guy_sam2005]

GM is right strategically SKQ should not seek alliance with PDB, this will be used by SMS camp to claim victim , however since SKQ has clearly stated in his vision he is aligned to the reformist agenda any way.

Reformists need to ensure their actions facilitate the rise of sKQ, not sabotage or dilute his movement . But sKQ camp needs to know we are morally supporting him to replace SMS. He should know we are not his enemy. We should clearly state we are living 53rd as to be decided. That will help SKQ to not see us a threat and save their ammunition for SMS attacks. He has nothing to worry from our side.

Once SKQ comes to power , but likely is there will be a split with a minority following , we can review his agenda , if he delivers on his promises we can disband the reformist movement and embed as a new reformed community. But let us be real not all but most of our demands need to be met so let us not be hard headed.

wow wat a strategy,you can buy a few fighter planes from france,few tanks from usa and submarines frm russia,then you can have 3 fronts attack..........

[Ozdundee]

I feel this is the right time for reformists to approach SKQ and get his response with regard to their demands. This could atleast give them some idea as to how far he is committed to their cause and also whether he just shrugs off their demands and throws them out. In all likelihood he will not give anything in writing at present but one could atleast find out if he promises to look into the demands once he succeeds in overthrowing Muffy OR if he carves out a new sect. He may be tempted as he could increase his following by a few thousands which is not a small number for him in the present circumstances.

GM bhai I think Mohamedshah is the emissary from SKQ camp and he has to send and bring back a statement on how SKQ regards the hard fought struggle of the reformist. I have searched and it seems we are not yet mentioned or recognized. They know we have been around and we have stated openly we are ready to discuss and talk diplomatically. We have opened our arms and we need to wait for their response.

If PDB are talking in the background then we would not jeopardize their actions but we need to know for certain where we are. It has been a long week and it is important are we aiding a friend or enemy.

I think we need to be very firm and straight to ensure this site is not being exploited by SMS and SKQ. We have limited time, resources and we need to focus on our own strategy if there is no synergy in our and SKQ mission.

[sumi]

What is the official response of reformists udaipuri bohras, should they join khuzema?

[Ozdundee]

Khuzema and his sons are yet to acknowledge the importance and contributions made by reformist to-date and his acceptance of negotiating some or majority of our terms. There is no official or systematic engagement that I know of.

Some of us are waiting for official communication and we will unleash our capability and capacity to his support and make his challenging fight with SMS a bit easier.

Similarly we are open to SMS to think through if he is happy to negotiate, but as recently as in Udaipur he was stubborn and arrogant. But in the last 2 weeks his world has turned upside down and may want to change his mind and negotiate with reformist. We are always open to mutual settlement.

[wise_guy]

Well Well Well... Ozdundee is behaving like an official spokesperson of the Reformists.. I am sure that there will be someone to oppose his comment and thinking !

[Ozdundee]

Anyone can oppose my views i only speak as a reformist ...there is a difference between PDB members and reformists, I think this website has discussed the difference many many times. I am not interested and not a spokesman of reformists. I like being in the front line where the action is .

[Qutbi-Hero]

Khuzema and his sons are yet to acknowledge the importance and contributions made by reformist to-date

Please explain what these contributions are and why they are important...

and his acceptance of negotiating some or majority of our terms.

Please explain what your terms are - and which of these you'd definitely want accepted...

There is no official or systematic engagement that I know of.

It takes two to tango dude! Have the Reformists officially approached the Qutbi Camp?

Some of us are waiting for official communication and we will unleash our capability and capacity

Please detail what your capability and capacity is, and how it will be unleashed...

to his support and make his challenging fight with SMS a bit easier.

The involvement of the Reformist Jammat... is just as likely to make things harder for them...

Similarly we are open to SMS to think through if he is happy to negotiate, but as recently as in Udaipur he was stubborn and arrogant. But in the last 2 weeks his world has turned upside down and may want to change his mind and negotiate with reformist. We are always open to mutual settlement

Muffy will NEVER agree to any of your demands - he doesn't need to bro.

By the way, why are you saying "we" - are you somebody high up in the Reformist organisation who is speaking on behalf of the whole Jamaat?

I am not interested and not a spokesman of reformists.

I see, in that case, you're only speaking for yourself... so it might be best to drop the "we" lol. By the way, are you in Udaipur or somewhere else?

[Qutbi-Hero]

What are the number of Reformists and Progressives? Rough Estimate? Does the Reformist group have any numbers or stats. If so please share.

Humsafar has mentioned the number 5,000, who are based in Udaipur. The rest of the world is a mystery, but I'd guess it's probably another 5,000.

It's a shame the Reformists aren't more organised and have information like this readily available... but then, that is to be expected.

[Bohra spring]

QBL as if SKQ is better organised,

Your idea is reformist need to approach him if that is his thinking, says that he feels in 2 weeks he has built a superiority complex. He has known we exist , his sons can send us a signal. But best we don't cross path and as other more experienced reformist have warned that let SKQ prove how much reforms he is prepared to bring along.

If any side is looking to exchange slaves we are not those. History has recorded that any political side does not like warriors or self motivated rebels.

Clearly within your minds whether SKQ or SMS reformists are too hot too handle...because we will be a threat to any corrupt leader.

[wise_guy]

Nothing at the moment. Just scratching their b***s. Dont think anybody is interested. Most of the progressives don't really believe or care about hidden imam or dai. So they are least pushed.

so what business do the reformists have in bohra community then. They have no right to comment or criticize the dawat as believing in hidden Imam uz zaman and Dai are the basic tenets of Bohra faith.

[Qutbi-Hero]

QBL as if SKQ is better organised,

Better organised than who - the Reformists or the Muffy Mob?

Your idea is reformist need to approach him if that is his thinking, says that he feels in 2 weeks he has built a superiority complex. He has known we exist , his sons can send us a signal.

Quite the opposite bro - if Udaipur think the Qutbis should run after the Reformists, then you guys are the ones with a superiority complex. Why do you think Mazoon needs you? You guys are small in number and have no rich and powerful members who could sway things in his favour. Besides, he will ask for Misaq, which he knows none of you want to give...

But best we don't cross path and as other more experienced reformist have warned that let SKQ prove how much reforms he is prepared to bring along.

True... best thing for the Reformists would be to wait and see for now. If the Qutbis follow through on their promises then, and only then, should you join them - in the meantime though, supporting him instead of being against him, would be very wise.

If any side is looking to exchange slaves we are not those. History has recorded that any political side does not like warriors or self motivated rebels.

What do you mean dude?

Clearly within your minds whether SKQ or SMS reformists are too hot too handle...because we will be a threat to any corrupt leader.

Brother, oh brother! Reformists are not a threat to anybody dude! Nobody is afraid of you guys!

Reformists didn't change a thing during the time of 52, nor will they change a thing now. In fact, if Mr Insaf is correct, the Udaipuris are still whining about Baraat - you are the ones who've been suffering all this time, not the Kothar!

Live in reality my friend... Udaipur is doing well all by itself so be happy with that - don't be a fool and think you are a mighty force that is feared by anyone, this simply isn't true.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Nothing at the moment. Just scratching their b***s. Dont think anybody is interested. Most of the progressives don't really believe or care about hidden imam or dai. So they are least pushed.

so what business do the reformists have in bohra community then. They have no right to comment or criticize the dawat as believing in hidden Imam uz zaman and Dai are the basic tenets of Bohra faith.

True... I really don't understand why Udaipur sticks with the Bohra label and keeps talking about Reforming them!

Why not cut all ties and just form a completely new and separate identity? Or just merge with the Sunnis or another community?

[Bohra spring]

Admin please see if you would do us all a favour.

If WG, mzakyo and QL are not paid members of this site can you lock their access and stop their contribution to this site that they see no purpose or value. They may try a different alias so see if you can run a block on email accounts they use and trace and block source ip if they try using different email. Let them go to an internet kiosk and pay for access before they can make comments. They will appreciate the privilege if they have to pay or earn it.

[guy_sam2005]

Admin please see if you would do us all a favour.

If WG, mzakyo and QL are not paid members of this site can you lock their access and stop their contribution to this site that they see no purpose or value. They may try a different alias so see if you can run a block on email accounts they use and trace and block source ip if they try using different email. Let them go to an internet kiosk and pay for access before they can make comments. They will appreciate the privilege if they have to pay or earn it.

If thats the case then anajmi and ppl like him should be banned too ,give me one meaningfll post from maqbool or so xcept dai bashing,and above all give one true incident from insaaf,when he can have previlage of presenting best bollywood stories here and you guys startin a debate over non existent facts that are just a figment of his imagination why cant others.posting here is not a previlage but a neccesity for you guys or else you all would have nothing to talk about......i dunno which camp ql n all are from but they have definately hit you where it hurts.....

[seeker110]

This site has become a problem for both sides. They are using every play in the book and then some. They are not paid member here, yet they are, and it shows.

They don't believe in "La illaha illallah".

[zinger]

Admin please see if you would do us all a favour.

If WG, mzakyo and QL are not paid members of this site can you lock their access and stop their contribution to this site that they see no purpose or value. They may try a different alias so see if you can run a block on email accounts they use and trace and block source ip if they try using different email. Let them go to an internet kiosk and pay for access before they can make comments. They will appreciate the privilege if they have to pay or earn it.

Why BS bhai? Who are you to decide who should be banned?

If at all, there are other far more poisonous members here who should be banned, including the "dashavtar" character.

Just cause he shows the shortcoming of the reform movement, you want to ban him???? Really???? Sorry to hit below the belt bhai, but you aren't considered much of a reformist either!!!

Suggest you introspect on all the QBL says and give more concrete suggestions on how to strenghten the weak areas instead of asking for members to be banned just cause you dont like the mirror they are showing you

[Bohra spring]

Zinger yes the statement that triggered my reaction is the lack of gratitude that many show about the value of this website. Remind abdes that being able to comment here is a privilege that I also receive.

The moment someone takes this privilege for granted then they need to be reminded the hard way. Criticise ideas but not the facilities. The admin is too lenient and may be for the right reason. I am not.

I don't need your recognition to be anti establishment.

[zinger]

BS bhai, nobody is not valuing this site. it is an enormous source of information for many, mis-information too, no doubt, but info for sure.

and why just us abde's? it is a privilege for one and all

this site says Dawoodi Bohras. Change it to Reformist Bohras or Progressive Bohras and then we can talk about privilieges

No one here is criticizing the facilities that admin is providing us with. i have already mentioned it some days back that admin should be lauded for doing such a thankless job

[guy_sam2005]

Zinger yes the statement that triggered my reaction is the lack of gratitude that many show about the value of this website. Remind abdes that being able to comment here is a privilege that I also receive.

The moment someone takes this privilege for granted then they need to be reminded the hard way. Criticise ideas but not the facilities. The admin is too lenient and may be for the right reason. I am not.

I don't need your recognition to be anti establishment.

Admin i guess is quite capable and doesnt need a SS chamcha i assume....

[guy_sam2005]

Dear BS,
This site is a wolf in sheeps clothing......its previlage for people like you that you get to voice your frustrations.We just counter them.i for one have no problems if banned too..That would be a previlage...