Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)

[accountability]

Lamiya
Your both the questions are pertinent. And I agree with both of them. As I have said earlier on this thread that KQ has got it wrong. I see this more of a family feud than a religious one. He is claiming to be heir of what . He has a very weak claim for Daiship. He does not even have a circumtancial evidence. He claimed it way back in eighties in Africa. But he had to flee from the country. Syedna Burhanuddin was not happy about it. now here is one strong refuttal of this claim. If he is right about 50 year old nass, and had he been appointed successor, syedna Burhanuddin would not deny it. which he obviously did by showing his displeasure. but rather confirm it.
2ndly he claims that Syedna Burhanuddin has asked him not to reveal it. But he did in Africa. so by disobeying the covenant he rendered himself ineligible for the coveted post by losing the trust of his dai.
now this all is about our religion. but I have heard that he is moving the court, and getting stay on properties. the irony is it that both sides will have very little to prove their case in court of law and according to indian civil code.

I would like to add to this, on Friday night we went to markaz, there was a video shown, Idress Bhai sahib was addressing the congregation. The language he used about his uncle, I found it not in conformity with civility. though there is a dispute, his is on his brother's side. the same address could have been delivered and gotten the same message across with different blend of words. cursing and ridiculing never proves the point. the message loses its importance. Also I think that ordinary bohras are unfairly dragged into this dispute. Ordinary bohras are not claiming any thing. there is no need to get the signature of each and every one, and true to its core, jamat is resorting to same coercive method . we will give misaq to Syedna Muffadal Saheb as and when demanded. There should have been new misaq for syedna muffadal sahib. but I think because of KQ 's revolt it is not happening. As in misaq you have to give allegiance to all there with name.

[Sceptical]

Please, can someone give details about the Africa episode?

what I found in this forum

The incident you are referring to had taken place during mazoon's mohurrum vayez in Africa when one of his aides had chanted some praises publicly in mazoon's favour in a masjid wherein he had referred to him as the next dai. Thereafter there was lot of tension and groupism in the so called royal family.

During the year 1409 Hijri, 14 Years ago, Syedi Mazoon Saheb came to do vaaz in Mombasa for Ashara Mubaraka by Aqa Moulas (TUS) farman aaliyah. After ashara there was an attempt to deport Mazoon Saheb from Kenya just like the attempt to deport Aqa Moula (TUS) from Tanzania 30 years ago. This event is common knowledge for Mumeneen in Africa, but it is not known as to who did this act of Dushmani in Kenya against Mazoon-e-Dawat. There was talk during Mazoon Sahebs visit that the Hebatullah brothers (Husain & Saifuddin) were behind the deportation attempt. The purpose for the deportation was obviously to humiliate Mazoon Saheb near Aqa Moula (TUS) and in the eyes of the public and so that he would leave Kenya and they (Hebatullahs) could continue with their misdeeds. Mazoon Saheb had refused to bow under their pressure and this infuriated them and they made every attempt to deport Mazoon Saheb from Kenya. The scan of the official Letter from the President of Kenya's office is below, which proves that Shaikh Husain Hebatullah (of Nairobi) was the mastermind who was trying to deport Mazoon-e-Dawat from Kenya in 1989 (1409H). In the letter the President of Kenya himself told Hussein Hebatullah and associates to stop doing their Fitnat against Mazoon Saheb. As you see in this letter there is a lot of evil in the midst of Dawat and in fact Jamea is where lies are being taught and then being taught by evil amils around the world. You see the corruption and stealing of Dawat's money by evil people in the Kothar, the Amils and also some Bhaisahibs.

So who is actually behind this? Surely someone bigger than the Hebatullahs! The taped conversation on Taizoon bhaisabs website mentions the family and friends of Shehzada Qasim Hakimuddin, Shehzada Aliasger Kalimuddin. Shehzadi Maryam baisaheb. The group also includes the sons and daughters of Shehzada Yusuf bhaisaheb Najmuddin. They held the hands of the Hebatullahs then and still do. They are the ones who cast doubt in peoples minds about Syedi Mazoon Saheb and Sydei Mukasir saheb, saying wrong things about them in private or through their missionaries such as Badrul Jamali and the Ezzi family of Bombay. I know some of them and they are liars and the most insincere people to serve Dawat. They do all this in hatred and jealousy. I have also attended their sabaq, in which they gave tasawwur of zahir-batin, and degraded the importance of the Rutba. One Shezada and Quasarali Najmuddin even suggested that we should not pray namaaz behind Mazoon Saheb. They are trying to influence us that these Rutba na Sahibs are only in Zahir, and in Batin it is someone else!

The above mentioned bhaisahebs have also said that Mazoon Saheb is doing Mushabahat (similar behaviour) of Dai.You will not believe but in one of the sabaq they told us that Syedi Najam Khan was removed from the position of Mazoon for doing wrong.

Now the bigger question after uncovering the evidence is that why did Aqa Moula (TUS) render the Hebatullahs innocent? How is that possible?

http://members.tripod.com/f_januwala/id3.html

[Al Fateh]

Till yesterday SKQ was on supreme post of mazoon, and today he is king of black magic? so he learnt all this black magic in last 10 days?

seriously?

how low muffy will go this time?

[Bohra spring]

Sceptical this is good to bring back. I was in East Africa during these times and I can tell you this is related to true events ,

I have personally met SKQ in late 80s, he was not arrogant , not rough and happy to listen to issues. I had a family issue I cannot disclose which he helped resolve without najwa or large payments , my parents just did a Salam , obviously was slightly higher than if we were to get an Amil involved. He even offered that I have dinner with his family as a courtesy . Note we were not wealthy at all we did not even have a telephone in those days . I say these to ensure an innocent man is rewarded for his deeds as I see him in trouble. I will return his favour that he showed 30 years ago by saying the good character I personally witnessed.

The issue mentioned above is true and as I recall was because frustrated Bohra members complained to SKQ that the Admin in Mombasa and Nairobi are heavy handed! forcing payments! etched. SKQ naively tried to instruct that such things are not to be allowed and tried to instruct Hebatullah led administrators to change .

Mombasa residents accidentally rejoiced this move by SKQ and stated seditious comments like Maula etc, which was nicely picked by Kothar and they brought sKQ to retract his moves and you know the rest.

Hebattulah are die hard loyalist of anyone related to Yusuf Najmudin where that is his immediate family like the Amils of Mombasa, SMS or YN. YN was the architect of oppression and was he'll bent on grabbing power as he could because he neither was a mazoon or mukasir. His son in law and daughter will fullfill his dream.

However their power does no longer extend to Tanzania , but Tanzanians are never known to be refromists, it's a docile state as majority youth are not secular and typical traders.

[SBM]

Well, unfortunately, now the succession disputes is amongst the followers of Ali (as). Go Figure.

Br Anajmi
The Dispute is not between the followers of Ali but between the followers of 51 and 52. Entire Muslim Ummah is follower of Ali as a honest-free from worldly pleasures and religious person who cared about Islam and teaching of Prophet Mohammed, even when the dispute of succession after the death of Prophet rose, Ali decided not to fight for the benefit of Ummah, how can anyone whose primary objective is to get power instead of thinking about the Ummah and Islam be follower of Ali. If both of them arefollowers of Ali they both should announce about abdicating the wealth and power and work for the unity of Mumineen in particular and Muslim Ummah in general

[juzerali]

Those who still think Lamiya's question deserves an explanation, I have put together, for the 23rd time, arguments which can be found on this same thread and have been discussed again and again.

1) Why did KQ not go to SMB right after the NASS at RAUDAT TAHERA? Yes, he wasn't present there like many other such instances, but well keeping all that aside, am I really supposed to believe that the second in command was not "allowed" to go meet the DAI (in person) for two years! The ruthba of mazoon is very elevated and i do believe that if he actually made an attempt he would be able to. Was he afraid of something? I have heard arguments that Abdeali tried to reach or something like that, not really sure, but why would abdeali want to reach SMB to talk about this? Where was KQ himself in the two years of the NASS?

SMS group including SQJ and sons of Yusuf Najmuddin plus their Khidmatguzars made sure SKQ never meet SMB in private. The post of Mazun or second-in-command has reduced to being symbolic only. Probably SKQ did not have that power. If he had, how could he have been completely sidelined by SMS gang? After all everyone including heir to the throne should bow to the official post of Mazun. Anyway a meeting with SMB would not have mattered either because he was rendered speechless after the stroke. As maintained by SKQ, he did not want to disrupt the decorum of SMB's Hayyati and was waiting for SMB to recover and put to rest the false claims put forward by their sons, which didn't happen.

2) As per the information on the website, the claim is that SMB asked KQ to keep the apparent nass to himself until it is time to disclose. So that raises a few questions in my head. But the most important is that a few months back, times of india published an article discussing a split within the community and that some people felt that KQ was the heir apparent. Saying so, how did times of india get this news? Inside job? If so then how could this inside person have known such a thing? Was it made up by them or was it shared by KQ himself? If made up by some people, then this whole discussion and the thread in fact is an absolute waste but if in fact KQ did reveal this to someone, he did break a vow to SMB! The DAI that he claims to succeed.

"SMB asked KQ to keep the apparent nass to himself until it is time to disclose". It doesn't say SKQ had to disclose Nass to all and gentry at once. And who is to decide what is the best time in the absence of Da'i (when he was sick and speechless), the second-in-command.
SKQ might have decided at some point that "it was time to disclose" to somebody, without declaring it in public. Someone might have betrayed him. Since he was second-in-command, he had the authority of making that decision when SMB was sick and unable to operate.

Now those who thought answering those questions was important, answer these:
What proof SMS and group including SQJ has of Nass? We never heard SMB declaring it himself. The witness of SQJ and others cannot be counted due to conflict of interest. As there is obvious lack of evidence, why should we trust someone who had no position at all in Dawa'h before a few years over someone who served the post of Mazun for fifty years and was appointed by SMB himself. These answers have been repeated many times on this same thread.

I am not favoring one side over another here, just showing that there is no point arguing over these questions. These arguments can be completely reversed to favor either side. There is no gain for anyone in discussing the technicalities and nuances of Nass and its history over 1400 years in the ways it was used by 21 Imams and 51 Duats. There is no point discussing SMB's will either. I think most visitors agree that Da'i is fallible and he could have made a mistake. Lets just move on to better questions. Who can serve this community best, or who can hurt it least? Are we forced to choose between lesser evil between the two, or do we have a third choice?

IMHO most people here wants to know the latest updates on what is happening on both camps. Moreover some are discussing if it could culminate in something revolutionary like whoever ascends the throne, if he can be made to negotiate the terms of his reign and some coercive practices could be done away with. Whining over Nass issue is spamming this thread IMHO, you mileage may vary.

[SBM]

Sr Lamiya
I am in no position to answer your questions about NUSS pronouncement. I do not know who is telling the truth since both of them proclaim to have received private NUSS confirmation. All I am asking is that for all these years we always heard about Mazoon to be next in line to Dai and many die hard abdes have always defended Dai as Infallible and Ghaib na Janakar and for last 50 years everyone including Muffadal-Quaid Chor and every one associated took Misaq and provided Rukku Chitti with Mazoon on it, They collected Najwas for Mazoon and all we know the Maxoon was SKQ and now all of a sudden the same Muffadal and Quaid Chor decided that he is Shaitan then they have to come out and declare that SMB made the mistake in appointing SKQ as Mazoon and you see how dominoes fall. If SMS announces SMB made mistake then SMB is not Infallible and SKQ can always claim that he made mistake in doing NUSS to Muffadal and this is whole Dawat starts falling apart.
BTW it is little disappointing for you to say that you did not convert to Islam but to Dawoodi Bohra. Unless you are part of Islam you are not Dawoodi Bohra, DB is sub sect of Islam.

[SBM]

I know the argument is going to be that we are "forced" to pay certain wajebaat. Honestly, that i think is the problem of the jamaat and not the DAI!

Sr Lamiya
Again the Aaamil is appointed by Dai and he can not deviate from the diktat of Kotahri Masters, so it is not the problem of Jamaat since Jamaat does not function independently ( that is what Reformists have been asking, an independent Jamaat) and since Dai is ultimate responsible as head the Buck Stops There.
Again coming back to 53rd Dai, many members on this forum had been predicting that there will be split after the death of 52nd, the question is who will be the right person to take this community to higher level, someone who asks their women to make Roti, stay home, learn about cooking (hint SMS) or some one who has put all his daughters through great universities are known as scholars on Islam (hint Tahera BS who graduated from Harvard University and goes on lecture circuit defending Islam.
We have one who goes on Animal Hunting and takes pleasure on giving Mushafehats to anyone who can show the money while other who stayed in background and making sure his children are well versed in Arabic-Islamic and other advance knowledge
Being a woman yourself, I would have thought that you would think that if SMS is the right Dai, your place would be in house becoming a Amte and second fidler to your husband while if SKQ is a right Dai, he would empower women to defend the honor of their husband and families along with defending Islam

[anajmi]

I think if SMS is truly a great Dai and the real follower of Imam Ali (as) then he should do what Ali did in such a circumstance. After the death of the prophet (saw) there was a succession dispute. And even through Ali (as) was the rightful successor, he let number 1 become the khalifa. This was for the betterment of Islam. This was for the unity of the Muslims And the prophet (saw) also always kept 1,2 and 3 close to himself. We have the same scene playing out today. SMB kept Mazoon close to himself like the prophet (saw) kept 1,2,3 close to himself. Then Ali let number 1 become the leader and hence SMS should let SKQ become the leader. This is all for the sake of Islam. SMS should save Islam by letting SKQ become the leader. I know SMS will do this because he is the true follower of Imam Ali. And he will let SKQ become the leader to keep the unity amongst the bohra. SMS is a great leader and he will do what Ali did. Long live SMS after he does what Ali did. Ya Ali, Ya Hussain, Ya SMS!!

[anajmi]

I think if SKQ is truly a great Dai and the real follower of Imam Ali (as) then he should do what Ali did in such a circumstance. After the death of the prophet (saw) there was a succession dispute. And even through Ali (as) was the rightful successor, he let number 1 become the khalifa. This was for the betterment of Islam. This was for the unity of the Muslims And the prophet (saw) also always kept 1,2 and 3 close to himself. We have the same scene playing out today. SMB kept Mansoos close to himself like the prophet (saw) kept 1,2,3 close to himself. Then Ali let number 1 become the leader and hence SKQ should let SMS become the leader. This is all for the sake of Islam. SKQ should save Islam by letting SMS become the leader. I know SKQ will do this because he is the true follower of Imam Ali. And he will let SMS become the leader to keep the unity amongst the bohra. SKQ is a great leader and he will do what Ali did. Long live SKQ after he does what Ali did. Ya Ali, Ya Hussain, Ya SKQ!!

[awaken]

I hope Next Ramadan LamiyaBen pays 2.2% of her saving as vajebaat and tell us how she was appreciated!! she should
ask for accountability of her Sabil. In Jumaat like NJ local Bhai Saheb expects and gets Salam not only
for him for but for his entire extended family (son,daughters, daughter-in laws,grand kids) EACH AND EVERYDAY DAY OF RAMADAN
which amounts to be $500 at least per night from our Sabil. NJ Jumaat Admins are all sold-out and bunch of YES men. Always propagating
furman from dawat and never conveying feeling of unemployed/retired jamaat families to other-side.

[wise_guy]

Got this news that the Aamil of Philadelphia uttered KQ after the namaz while reciting some dua. Hearing this, people got confused and afraid and ran away. Anyone who can provide more info on this.

[alam]

Perhaps this shuld belong in the section where all the Nass topics are being discussed: : Bohras and Reform.
Just s suggestion. .

[wise_guy]

Perhaps this shuld belong in the section where all the Nass topics are being discussed: : Bohras and Reform.
Just s suggestion. .

This is jamat specific thats y posted here. Otherwise, it would get lost in the deluge of posts in that forum.

[voice]

Got this message just now
ek zarure khaber appu chu munafekein muminean ne convert kerwa waste black magic kalu elm nu istemal kare rahya che tamne koi atter sunghawe ya pani appe zaber dasti to na leju as america ma ane london ma a misal amel thai rahyou che jamea se farig talebaat ye pure ziker ki che a bara na ane ye convert thai gaya che full family
San fransisco
Hafiz,talebaat,moalemaat
Shirin hamza
she and her whole fmly
Tame logo dhyaan rakhjo
Koye attar sungawe soit paani aape to naa lejo
Dushmmano ni chaal che
Ghana dawat si fari Gaya
Batchaos ne samjawjo
Aa msg jitna mumineen tak pohcha vi sako cho pohchaavjo.

So it confirms that people in san Fransisco and many other parts have opted for change and join hands with SKQ. Great news for well wishers of revolution.

[white_pigeon]

Got this message just now
ek zarure khaber appu chu munafekein muminean ne convert kerwa waste black magic kalu elm nu istemal kare rahya che tamne koi atter sunghawe ya pani appe zaber dasti to na leju as america ma ane london ma a misal amel thai rahyou che jamea se farig talebaat ye pure ziker ki che a bara na ane ye convert thai gaya che full family
San fransisco
Hafiz,talebaat,moalemaat
Shirin hamza
she and her whole fmly
Tame logo dhyaan rakhjo
Koye attar sungawe soit paani aape to naa lejo
Dushmmano ni chaal che
Ghana dawat si fari Gaya
Batchaos ne samjawjo
Aa msg jitna mumineen tak pohcha vi sako cho pohchaavjo.

So it confirms that people in san Fransisco and many other parts have opted fpr change and join hands with SKQ. Great news for well wishers of revolution.

What has attar and paani got to do with this? Typical rumours to make the blind followers more blind. Looks like San Franciso has some people who can think with intelligence. Kudos to them. Cant wait to hear more revolutionary hand shakes with SKQ army.
I will sniff some attar to celebrate this news from my cupboard now. Stop me now

[white_pigeon]

Got this news that the Aamil of Philadelphia uttered KQ after the namaz while reciting some dua. Hearing this, people got confused and afraid and ran away. Anyone who can provide more info on this.

LOL!!!

[New]

NEED to KNOW
Who are SMS and SKQ?
Can some one write how many children each one has and about their wive? Also each children married to whom? An interesting pattern may emerge. Please, give only authentic info. Would like to know the educational degrees they have and present occupation. Leave blank and some one who knows may fill in the blanks. This may take time?

Would have been interesting if SKQ's daughter would have been still married to SMS!!!

Who sanctfied all the marraiges with blessings. SMB did not know what was going to happen. The Soap Opera continues, stay tuned...

Why do bhaisaabs inter marry. They do not know genetics? The royal blood must have collected many bad genes by now.

[Maqbool]

Lamiya,

Will you please explain why the zakat is turned in to wazebat. Since the zakat is mentioned in Quran and not the wazebat.
Some time learned person argues that I wants to give only zalat and not wazebat then the Amil insult and refuse to take.
Will you clarify this.

[wise_guy]

Heard that the prominent industrialist Khorakiwala family of Wockhardt, Monginis and Akbarallys fame have jumped ship towards KQ camp. Any concrete news on this ?

[seriousnessisamess]

Just few days back Mazoon moula use to be "Ilam na Dariya" People use to call him the most learned man.Arey Mohammed mazoon moulaa passy to ghanuj Ilam che,Emna mojiza Kitla Thai che Khabar che...lol
And now he is the black magic con artist.What the hell these guys think we are? Are we stoned here thay believe whatever propoganda they come up with.Noways...I will rather baraat myself from you guys.

[seriousnessisamess]

Maqbool
we pay zakaat alagse to other muslims as we think this wajebat does not go to the right islamic cause.So like us lot of bohras must be doing this too.

[seriousnessisamess]

white_pigeon

bro please dont sniff. Dushmani,no ghinoni chaal che.Lol..Tamey Farii jaaso biji taraf..(

[wise_guy]

In that message, the name of the perfume is also mentioned...
La magie noir wapre che

lol

Last line is in french.. Passer le message a tout le monde

Got this message just now
ek zarure khaber appu chu munafekein muminean ne convert kerwa waste black magic kalu elm nu istemal kare rahya che tamne koi atter sunghawe ya pani appe zaber dasti to na leju as america ma ane london ma a misal amel thai rahyou che jamea se farig talebaat ye pure ziker ki che a bara na ane ye convert thai gaya che full family
San fransisco
Hafiz,talebaat,moalemaat
Shirin hamza
she and her whole fmly
Tame logo dhyaan rakhjo
Koye attar sungawe soit paani aape to naa lejo
Dushmmano ni chaal che
Ghana dawat si fari Gaya
Batchaos ne samjawjo
Aa msg jitna mumineen tak pohcha vi sako cho pohchaavjo.

So it confirms that people in san Fransisco and many other parts have opted for change and join hands with SKQ. Great news for well wishers of revolution.

[wise_guy]

even got to know that quite a few people in the US are changing sides (especially the so called clean shaved lots)

[white_pigeon]

TV9 Gujarati reports directly from SKQ camp in Thane. HOT PRESS NEWS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXRo_RU ... ata_player

[Fakhruddinsuratwala]

There is a rumour that there is big rift between the Shezadas as Shazada Malek bhaisaheb, one son of Huzefa bhaisaheb and ShezadaQaid Zohar bhaisaheb on one end and the rest and thier sons on the other side. Anyone hearing such news....

[Roshan_shines]

I think if SMS is truly a great Dai and the real follower of Imam Ali (as) then he should do what Ali did in such a circumstance. After the death of the prophet (saw) there was a succession dispute. And even through Ali (as) was the rightful successor, he let number 1 become the khalifa. This was for the betterment of Islam. This was for the unity of the Muslims And the prophet (saw) also always kept 1,2 and 3 close to himself. We have the same scene playing out today. SMB kept Mazoon close to himself like the prophet (saw) kept 1,2,3 close to himself. Then Ali let number 1 become the leader and hence SMS should let SKQ become the leader. This is all for the sake of Islam. SMS should save Islam by letting SKQ become the leader. I know SMS will do this because he is the true follower of Imam Ali. And he will let SKQ become the leader to keep the unity amongst the bohra. SMS is a great leader and he will do what Ali did. Long live SMS after he does what Ali did. Ya Ali, Ya Hussain, Ya SMS!!

@anajmi
In Hazrat Ali (as) case it was Islam which was on the top of the mind but herein in SMS case its power, Money and billon dollar Dawat a hadiyah on the top of the mind and at stake.

[seriousnessisamess]

Heard a mojiza....

someone who joined SKQ camp was braught by his parents to SMS ,Moula ye ek nazar farmavi ane eno jaadu kaati kaaru.chokro maafi maangi ane imaan liyavo.

[Akhtiar Wahid]

Bushra Bushra.....Mojizao ni factory khuli gai che.....je ne bhi aa mojizao ni ganimat levi hoi....SKQ ni jadoo ni jhappi talab karey pacchi....SMS nu phoonkelu angli si malelu pak e shifa pani nu talab karey inshallah ehne khuda jahanam ni aag naseeb karse.