Tax Evasion of Kothar
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Tax Evasion of Kothar
Br Muddai: You started a good discussion & let us take it to the other thread- Since this has been bothering me & quite a few friends of mine for a long time- As far as I know Dawat_e -Hadiyah has been regd as a charitable organization & members are encouraged to take deductions on their tax return -I believe the different Jamats too- If you look at their by laws it is solely controlled by daiAl mutlaq & it does not give it's annual income & expense reports & neither it contributes to any significant charities- So it is a tax sham - Please notify IRS & FBI in your area- IRS toll free # is--1-800-829-0433 - Dawat-E -Hadiyah trust has been moved to california from Houston-
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Here is the excerpt Of Br Muddai"s reply on the other thread--------------------------------
Muddai
Active
Member # 121
posted 11-01-2003 09:54 PM
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Qiyam,
Najwa is a a gift. They are things you do for barakat...not for your bottom line.
It is disingenuous, hypocrtical, and illegal to register as non-profit and account for donations as Barakat requests. Gifts over a certain amount are taxable. In the US there is a deduction for non-profit and religious organizations but none for Barakat Only Organizations.
I doubt that you realize the legal ramifications of your statement a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT! I wasn't planning to deduct it as a charitable donation!
Again, this is illegal in the US. If it is not a charitable donation, then why is the Jamaat reaping the tax benefits ? Since they are, why shouldn't the individual giving it take the same tax benefit ? If the Jamaat registers as a Corporation (which it is and should be listed on NASDAQ under the symbol "DAI") I wouldn;t have a problem with that. If your faith allows for sincerity, then I would welcome an effort on your part to convert the non-profit, charitable classification to a Corporation. Then you can continue to chatise people for taking deductions, because the Jamaat isn't.
a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT!
Please remember your statement above as this will come back to haunt you in future discussions.
Incidentally, how will this non-profit organization account for revenues collected by selling prayer spaces ? Barakat, donation, or profit
Muddai
Active
Member # 121
posted 11-01-2003 09:54 PM
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Qiyam,
Najwa is a a gift. They are things you do for barakat...not for your bottom line.
It is disingenuous, hypocrtical, and illegal to register as non-profit and account for donations as Barakat requests. Gifts over a certain amount are taxable. In the US there is a deduction for non-profit and religious organizations but none for Barakat Only Organizations.
I doubt that you realize the legal ramifications of your statement a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT! I wasn't planning to deduct it as a charitable donation!
Again, this is illegal in the US. If it is not a charitable donation, then why is the Jamaat reaping the tax benefits ? Since they are, why shouldn't the individual giving it take the same tax benefit ? If the Jamaat registers as a Corporation (which it is and should be listed on NASDAQ under the symbol "DAI") I wouldn;t have a problem with that. If your faith allows for sincerity, then I would welcome an effort on your part to convert the non-profit, charitable classification to a Corporation. Then you can continue to chatise people for taking deductions, because the Jamaat isn't.
a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT!
Please remember your statement above as this will come back to haunt you in future discussions.
Incidentally, how will this non-profit organization account for revenues collected by selling prayer spaces ? Barakat, donation, or profit
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Dear Muddai,
Learn what is a tax on gift and one of charitable donation first before declaring what is legal and what isn't.
A charitable donation is just that...a donation for a cause or organization...like the upkeep of a mosque, etc. This is something you must have a receipt for and which you can deduct from your taxes.
A gift is something you give someone or something...without getting a receipt nor claiming it as a tax deduction. It is very legal and allowed up to $10,000 (based on 2001 US tax code).
The jamat (ie anjuman) are non-exempt organizations...this is why you get a receipt for checks made to the jamat.
If you give najwa with salams...your giving it to the individual..not the jamat.
I think you confusing the two.
Learn what is a tax on gift and one of charitable donation first before declaring what is legal and what isn't.
A charitable donation is just that...a donation for a cause or organization...like the upkeep of a mosque, etc. This is something you must have a receipt for and which you can deduct from your taxes.
A gift is something you give someone or something...without getting a receipt nor claiming it as a tax deduction. It is very legal and allowed up to $10,000 (based on 2001 US tax code).
The jamat (ie anjuman) are non-exempt organizations...this is why you get a receipt for checks made to the jamat.
If you give najwa with salams...your giving it to the individual..not the jamat.
I think you confusing the two.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam,
You appear to lack basic understanding of US Tax laws. Firstly, I am not referring to the person giving the cash, but the person accepting it, and the liabilities incurred therein.
When you setup a 501 (c) organizations the leadership and the clergy are considered insiders . They cannot take cash “gifts” at the mosque and account for that separate from mosque income / revenue. This act that you describe is a violation of the exempt status of the entire organization.
The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a §501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization.
This is no different than you providing plumbing or electrical services, and referring to part of your income as a “gift” !
I hope you now understand the difference and will no longer confuse this situation with the simple gift tax exemption.
Best Regards
You appear to lack basic understanding of US Tax laws. Firstly, I am not referring to the person giving the cash, but the person accepting it, and the liabilities incurred therein.
When you setup a 501 (c) organizations the leadership and the clergy are considered insiders . They cannot take cash “gifts” at the mosque and account for that separate from mosque income / revenue. This act that you describe is a violation of the exempt status of the entire organization.
The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, such as the creator or the creator's family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. No part of the net earnings of a §501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization.
This is no different than you providing plumbing or electrical services, and referring to part of your income as a “gift” !
I hope you now understand the difference and will no longer confuse this situation with the simple gift tax exemption.
Best Regards
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Muddai,
A little piece of info. you forgot. A gift is not considered income...nor can or should it be claimed as income...according to US tax code. This has nothing to do with it being a charity or non-exempt organization. YOUR NOT GIVING MONEY TO THE ORGANIZATION.
If you had read my post completely..you would notice I pointed this out.
A little piece of info. you forgot. A gift is not considered income...nor can or should it be claimed as income...according to US tax code. This has nothing to do with it being a charity or non-exempt organization. YOUR NOT GIVING MONEY TO THE ORGANIZATION.
If you had read my post completely..you would notice I pointed this out.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyma,
Again, this is not a gift tax issue.
As an insider and a minister of a 501 (c) organization, if the clergy accepts cash the exempt organization is violating the terms on the 501 (c), and no longer exempt.
Again, this is not a gift tax issue.
As an insider and a minister of a 501 (c) organization, if the clergy accepts cash the exempt organization is violating the terms on the 501 (c), and no longer exempt.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Sorry...meant to say Qiyam, typo.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Muddai,
You are still confusing the two items.
The jamat organization is not formed nor organized to benefit the organizer. The jamat is not organized to just collect najwa. None of the money given in the name of the jamat is or can be used by members of the organization for personal gain...except as salary or for work.
This is totally separate from najwa, a gift, because it is given directly for the person.
You are still confusing the two items.
The jamat organization is not formed nor organized to benefit the organizer. The jamat is not organized to just collect najwa. None of the money given in the name of the jamat is or can be used by members of the organization for personal gain...except as salary or for work.
This is totally separate from najwa, a gift, because it is given directly for the person.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
This is getting rather silly.
This is totally separate from najwa, a gift, because it is given directly for the person.
1. All monies are given to a person, cash or check, salaam or mail.
2. If the person is a minister of an exempt organization and is recieving this money as a result of his position as a clergy, the organization has violated its exemption charter.
He can call it gift, commission, or dues...totally irrelevant. I have no desire to argue with you; I am simply stating a fact regarding IRS rules. Anyone can research it, including you.
This is totally separate from najwa, a gift, because it is given directly for the person.
1. All monies are given to a person, cash or check, salaam or mail.
2. If the person is a minister of an exempt organization and is recieving this money as a result of his position as a clergy, the organization has violated its exemption charter.
He can call it gift, commission, or dues...totally irrelevant. I have no desire to argue with you; I am simply stating a fact regarding IRS rules. Anyone can research it, including you.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Muddai,
think about your argument a little.
No part of the net earnings of a §501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.
The purpose of the clause you quoted is so that the funds collected in the name of the organization is not for the purpose of private interests...this would be like if the money given in the name of a jamat is collected and USED by the amil for his personal use.
This doesn't happen...this is the reason he gets a salary. Najwa however is NOT given or collected in the name of the organization (ie the jamat) nor under the precepts of being used for the organization.
think about your argument a little.
No part of the net earnings of a §501(c)(3) organization may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.
The purpose of the clause you quoted is so that the funds collected in the name of the organization is not for the purpose of private interests...this would be like if the money given in the name of a jamat is collected and USED by the amil for his personal use.
This doesn't happen...this is the reason he gets a salary. Najwa however is NOT given or collected in the name of the organization (ie the jamat) nor under the precepts of being used for the organization.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Muddai,
One other point:
You point #1 and #2 are incorrect for the clause.
they would be correct if:
1. All monies are given to a person, cash or check, salaam or mail in the name of the organization as earning.
2. If the person is a minister of an exempt organization and is recieving this money as a result of his position as a clergy, the organization has violated its exemption charter.
--if the money is given in the name of the organization...then yes it is violation. IF the money is given to the minister NOT in the name of the organization then it is NOT a violation.
One other point:
You point #1 and #2 are incorrect for the clause.
they would be correct if:
1. All monies are given to a person, cash or check, salaam or mail in the name of the organization as earning.
2. If the person is a minister of an exempt organization and is recieving this money as a result of his position as a clergy, the organization has violated its exemption charter.
--if the money is given in the name of the organization...then yes it is violation. IF the money is given to the minister NOT in the name of the organization then it is NOT a violation.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam,
If you sincerely want to understand what I have correctly stated, please consult a tax attorney.
regards....
If you sincerely want to understand what I have correctly stated, please consult a tax attorney.
regards....
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
It would be interesting to determine as to whether the Shehzaadas, Bhaisahebs, Sheikhs and Mullas who receive these so-called gifts, najwas, salaams account, report and declare as income for tax purposes. They should as these are incomes earned in the course or during employment. If NOT they will be subject to a criminal offence of tax evasion.
If not, then they are also against Aqua Moulas directive to comply with the laws of the country they reside in!
If not, then they are also against Aqua Moulas directive to comply with the laws of the country they reside in!
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Muddai,
I did...that is why I quoted the amount originally. Maybe you should to understand the things you quote from the tax code.
Mumineen,
As I also stated, gifts are NOT to be reported as income because the Goverment doesn't consider them income, unless they exceed the stated amount, according to the US tax code.
I did...that is why I quoted the amount originally. Maybe you should to understand the things you quote from the tax code.
Mumineen,
As I also stated, gifts are NOT to be reported as income because the Goverment doesn't consider them income, unless they exceed the stated amount, according to the US tax code.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam:
Read my lips:
All the U.K., U.S.A. and Canadian Tax Codes stipulates that, regardless of the source or type of income - whether it is a gift or a benefit and if it is earned in the course of or during employment or business, it is to be reported as income by any person. A "person" is also defined in each of the Tax Codes.
Read my lips:
All the U.K., U.S.A. and Canadian Tax Codes stipulates that, regardless of the source or type of income - whether it is a gift or a benefit and if it is earned in the course of or during employment or business, it is to be reported as income by any person. A "person" is also defined in each of the Tax Codes.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Mumineen,
Please quote me a source...because the tax code from the IRS doesn't state this! Thanks.
Please quote me a source...because the tax code from the IRS doesn't state this! Thanks.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam: Here it is!
U.S,Tax Code
TITLE 26 > Subtitle C > CHAPTER 21 > Subchapter C > Sec. 3121.
a) Wages
For purposes of this chapter, the term ''wages'' means all remuneration for employment, including the cash value of all remuneration (including benefits) paid in any medium other than cash; except that such term shall not include -
Exception: 5(A)
from or to a trust described in section 401(a) which is exempt from tax under section 501(a) at the time of such payment unless such payment is made to an employee of the trust as remuneration for services rendered as such employee and not as a beneficiary of the trust,
U.K. Tax Code:
Section 7(3)(a) and Section 62 ITEPA 2003
Meaning of earnings
For tax purposes, the word earnings in relation to an office or employment means:
· any salary, wages or fee
· any gratuity or other profit or incidental benefit of any kind obtained by the employee if it is money or money’s worth (see EIM00530)
· anything else that constitutes an emolument of the employment.
This is a wide definition. The second and third bullets ensure that all money payments that are similar to salaries, fees and wages are taxed as earnings. Examples are bonuses, commissions, tips, overtime pay and extra money earnings of any kind.
CANADA Income Tax Code:
Basic Rules
Income from office or employment
5. (1) Subject to this Part, a taxpayer's income for a taxation year from an office or employment is the salary, wages and other remuneration, including gratuities, received by the taxpayer in the year.
Now give me your support for your contention that these incomes during the course of employment are exempt.
U.S,Tax Code
TITLE 26 > Subtitle C > CHAPTER 21 > Subchapter C > Sec. 3121.
a) Wages
For purposes of this chapter, the term ''wages'' means all remuneration for employment, including the cash value of all remuneration (including benefits) paid in any medium other than cash; except that such term shall not include -
Exception: 5(A)
from or to a trust described in section 401(a) which is exempt from tax under section 501(a) at the time of such payment unless such payment is made to an employee of the trust as remuneration for services rendered as such employee and not as a beneficiary of the trust,
U.K. Tax Code:
Section 7(3)(a) and Section 62 ITEPA 2003
Meaning of earnings
For tax purposes, the word earnings in relation to an office or employment means:
· any salary, wages or fee
· any gratuity or other profit or incidental benefit of any kind obtained by the employee if it is money or money’s worth (see EIM00530)
· anything else that constitutes an emolument of the employment.
This is a wide definition. The second and third bullets ensure that all money payments that are similar to salaries, fees and wages are taxed as earnings. Examples are bonuses, commissions, tips, overtime pay and extra money earnings of any kind.
CANADA Income Tax Code:
Basic Rules
Income from office or employment
5. (1) Subject to this Part, a taxpayer's income for a taxation year from an office or employment is the salary, wages and other remuneration, including gratuities, received by the taxpayer in the year.
Now give me your support for your contention that these incomes during the course of employment are exempt.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam,
Additionally, you need to switch tax attorneys.
If you had to consult a tax attorney to come up with that basic info, and even then a 2001 tax deduction, you are not qualified to join this discussion and it also explains your inability to comprehend the tax code I have outlined.I did...that is why I quoted the amount originally. It is very legal and allowed up to $10,000 (based on 2001 US tax code).
Additionally, you need to switch tax attorneys.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Muddai,
I quoted from the US tax code. I confirmed it with a tax attorney.
And from your iterations over what 501 (a) says..it is you who cannot read the tax code.
I quoted from the US tax code. I confirmed it with a tax attorney.
And from your iterations over what 501 (a) says..it is you who cannot read the tax code.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Mumineen,
TITLE 26 > Subtitle C > CHAPTER 21 > Subchapter C > Sec. 3121 is renumeration between employee and employer.
It has nothing to do with cash or property gifts by individuals!
You should refer to:
TITLE 26 > Subtitle A > CHAPTER 1 > Subchapter B > PART III > Sec. 102.
"Sec. 102. - Gifts and inheritances
(a) General rule
Gross income does not include the value of property acquired by gift, bequest, devise, or inheritance."
TITLE 26 > Subtitle C > CHAPTER 21 > Subchapter C > Sec. 3121 is renumeration between employee and employer.
It has nothing to do with cash or property gifts by individuals!
You should refer to:
TITLE 26 > Subtitle A > CHAPTER 1 > Subchapter B > PART III > Sec. 102.
"Sec. 102. - Gifts and inheritances
(a) General rule
Gross income does not include the value of property acquired by gift, bequest, devise, or inheritance."
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam:
Aren't the Amils employees of Kothar or the local Jamaats? If NOT then they must be self-employed, and then the incomes would be from business ( I think they are already in extortion business!)
If "Gross income does not include the value of property acquired by gift, bequest, devise, or inheritance.", then all employees would ask their employers NOT to give them remuneration but tax-free gifts, bequest, devise or inheritance instead.
Check with your so-called attorney friend or better still, with IRS.
What about the UK and Canadian statutes? You can any winners (excuses, explanationations, rationale or defences) here as well?
Aren't the Amils employees of Kothar or the local Jamaats? If NOT then they must be self-employed, and then the incomes would be from business ( I think they are already in extortion business!)
If "Gross income does not include the value of property acquired by gift, bequest, devise, or inheritance.", then all employees would ask their employers NOT to give them remuneration but tax-free gifts, bequest, devise or inheritance instead.
Check with your so-called attorney friend or better still, with IRS.
What about the UK and Canadian statutes? You can any winners (excuses, explanationations, rationale or defences) here as well?
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Mumineen,
The amils are given salaries by the Jamat Organizations...not the kothar. The Jamat organizations DO file with the governments.
This has nothing to do with najwa given by individuals.
The amils are given salaries by the Jamat Organizations...not the kothar. The Jamat organizations DO file with the governments.
This has nothing to do with najwa given by individuals.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam:
They have to report these so-called gifts in the same way waiters, taxi-drivers or hairdressers report the voluntary tips (gifts from their patrons) - any income in the course or during employment.
They have to report these so-called gifts in the same way waiters, taxi-drivers or hairdressers report the voluntary tips (gifts from their patrons) - any income in the course or during employment.
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam; Stop pretending you know everything about the the tax laws & all the jamat's working routines! For your info none of the jamat files their annual tax returns -If they did they are required by law to declare it as a public record to it's members! Have you seen any? And for your info none of the amils file their tax returns & quite frankly they exceed their annual exempt gift income of $10000--especially when they get extra commision when Syedna visits the local jamats when lot of ziafats & sheikh titles are awarded!In fact the amil of Los angeles has been proudly quoted of hoarding a lot of cash & real estate property!
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Mumineen and Anajmi,Originally posted by mumineen:
Qiyam:
They have to report these so-called gifts in the same way waiters, taxi-drivers or hairdressers report the voluntary tips (gifts from their patrons) - any income in the course or during employment.
I am assuming your a tax expert...or at least pretending to be one. I quoted from the US tax code regarding what is a gift. I seem to be confused on the issue. A tip is NOT a gifts. I don't tip my parents when I do salam. Think about for a little. Both of you assume you know what your talking about..and accuse me of not. I am not a tax expert, not even a CPA. This is why I refered to one. I also do not know the inner workings of the jamat organization. I just know what I know. Beyond them filing..I don't know what they file or how they file. I assume you don't either..by the way you generalize your "factual" statements.
When you've consulted an accountant and found out the actual inner working of the jamat...chime in again.
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MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Br Qiyam: That is a problem with you Abde syednas-You do'nt want to question or find out the truth! And when all the reformists take pains & efforts to tell you the truth you do'nt seem to beleive inspite of the proofs laid out in open! So here you are you have already admitted finally by throwing the towel !!!!!!
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam
Let us cut through the chase.
Here is a scam they use. You do a jamaan and although you have paid for everything from your pocket, the jamaat wants you to invoice the local jamaat for expenses. The jamaat then cuts you a cheque. You are then supposed to cash it and pay the cash money back to the jamaat. So now the jamaat has cashed money out as an expense.
Now I think this is brilliant.
Let me predict your response:
- Have you spoken to the Amil?
- What facts do you have?
- It is OK because we are doing it for the Dai
- Is there an ayat or hadith perhaps that assists you on this one.
As I said to you before : Smell teh coffee my friend. We are not stupid.
Let us cut through the chase.
Here is a scam they use. You do a jamaan and although you have paid for everything from your pocket, the jamaat wants you to invoice the local jamaat for expenses. The jamaat then cuts you a cheque. You are then supposed to cash it and pay the cash money back to the jamaat. So now the jamaat has cashed money out as an expense.
Now I think this is brilliant.
Let me predict your response:
- Have you spoken to the Amil?
- What facts do you have?
- It is OK because we are doing it for the Dai
- Is there an ayat or hadith perhaps that assists you on this one.
As I said to you before : Smell teh coffee my friend. We are not stupid.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Sorry,
My last post was for Mumineen and Mohd. Hussain (not Anajmi)
MH,
Get the truth, instead of hearsay...then tell me about it.
Observer,
If you knew the response...why not try answering it.
My last post was for Mumineen and Mohd. Hussain (not Anajmi)
MH,
Get the truth, instead of hearsay...then tell me about it.
Observer,
If you knew the response...why not try answering it.
Re: Tax Evasion of Kothar
Qiyam:
The difference between TIPS, Majwaas,gifts and salaams to one's parents:
TIPS are incomes earned in the course of employment: waiters, taxi drivers, or hairdressers
and are taxable - same as najwas to the employees of Kothar or Jamaat, i.e Aamils and Kothari Shahzaadas and Bhaisahebs.
NAJWAAS was to the Aamils and Kotharis are not GIFTS because they are NOT voluntary but obtained/demanded under force, duress or false pretences. These are taxable because they are incomes during the course of employment.
GIFTS are voluntary payments to registered charities and trusts for the propagation of religion, education, alleviation of poverty and sickness. The charities and trusts are supposed to issue tax receipts.
SALAAMS to parents and loved ones are voluntary payments for love and affection and has not tax consequences - either to the payers or recepients.
Elementary common sense e'h; But then common sense is not so common with the likes of "pseudo know-all" like Qiyam.
The difference between TIPS, Majwaas,gifts and salaams to one's parents:
TIPS are incomes earned in the course of employment: waiters, taxi drivers, or hairdressers
and are taxable - same as najwas to the employees of Kothar or Jamaat, i.e Aamils and Kothari Shahzaadas and Bhaisahebs.
NAJWAAS was to the Aamils and Kotharis are not GIFTS because they are NOT voluntary but obtained/demanded under force, duress or false pretences. These are taxable because they are incomes during the course of employment.
GIFTS are voluntary payments to registered charities and trusts for the propagation of religion, education, alleviation of poverty and sickness. The charities and trusts are supposed to issue tax receipts.
SALAAMS to parents and loved ones are voluntary payments for love and affection and has not tax consequences - either to the payers or recepients.
Elementary common sense e'h; But then common sense is not so common with the likes of "pseudo know-all" like Qiyam.