World at war : who to blame

[SBM]

It is time that we Muslims should start taking responsibility and learn from Jews how after they suffered at the hand of Hitler came back and became strong using the World power houses.

There is no need to learn anything from the jews. If you learn from them, then you will end up with them. Learn from the Quran instead.

And that is what ISIS is teaching you from the Quran, Allaha has given you enough brain to learn from the Quran and Prophet also told us to learn from China too. if only Quran was enough, Prophet would have never told Muslims to go to China to learn

[anajmi]

More Muslims were killed by Saddam Hussain then the numbers of Palestinians killed by Israel.

Well, we solved the Saddam problem, now let us solve the Israeli problem.

(read the book I am Malala)

Malala was a patsy. Start reading between the lines. Do you see any mark on her head where she was supposedly shot? And besides, the Americans went into Afghanistan to save those people right? How about the Americans going into Gaza to save them?

Did you know if was Boko Haram who have taken more than 200 girls and no one knows about then and no one talks about it because Boko Haram is extreme Sunni outfit just like Al Qaida-ISIS too

Why don't the Americans and the Israelis bomb them too?

[SBM]

^
Interesting- If was Americans who went to Bosnia to save Muslims from Massacare where was your Saudi-Kuwaiti-Jordanian-UAE forces
At one hand you blame America for everything wrong in Muslim world and then you ask America to go and save all those suffering.

[anajmi]

And that is what ISIS is teaching you from the Quran

This is the problem with people like you. I have told you about my view on ISIS but you keep insisting that I am learning from them. People like you are the reason why average folks choose to blame muslims for everything. Even though I am against ISIS, you will simply ignore my hatred for ISIS because it does not suit your argument and invalidates it.

[anajmi]

At one hand you blame America for everything wrong in Muslim world and then you ask America to go and save all those suffering.

America doesn't go and save anyone unless they have something to gain. Infact they will actively oppose the saving of people if it opposes their agenda like they have done by vetoing sanctions against Israel for decades.

[SBM]

^
No I did not blame you personally for ISIS, you took upon yourself to associate, my statement was very general with the Muslim leadership,
You very well know my identity and my view points in print which I have shared with you despite the fact that you and Muslim First refused to even share your true identify with me in PM and on my personal emails--- knowing everything about me.So what should I think of both of you?
BTW about your suggestion of American bombing Boko Haram ---if they do, it will be the Muslims around the world who will say what you are saying that America is killing Muslims in general. Your own statement blaming America for many killings around the world specially of Al Qaida and Taliban leaders

[SBM]

At one hand you blame America for everything wrong in Muslim world and then you ask America to go and save all those suffering.

America doesn't go and save anyone unless they have something to gain. Infact they will actively oppose the saving of people if it opposes their agenda like they have done by vetoing sanctions against Israel for decades.

And how about all the Muslim Countries who joined sanctions against Iran, another Muslim Country? Why just blame America only

[anajmi]

Whether I wish to share my identity with you or not is immaterial and entirely my prerogative. Who you share your identity with is your wish. You can think whatever you want about me, it doesn't really matter. Although it is unfortunate that your argument is getting twisted because of your need to know my identity!! The same thing pops up again. Blame the muslims because anajmi did not share his identity with SBM!!

[anajmi]

And how about all the Muslim Countries who joined sanctions against Iran, another Muslim Country? Why just blame America only

You are jumping all over the place to muddy the issue. I chose one specific topic which was the suffering of the people in Gaza and who is to blame for that and you are jumping to bosnia and iraq and afghanistan and iran and even maids in Saudi to prove your point that muslims are to blame for everything. Different people are to blame for different things and we can get into the details of each one, but just because a Saudi disrespects his maid doesn't mean that Israel should no longer be blamed for the suffering of the people in Gaza.

[anajmi]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=11322420

A fantastic proposal by France.

France's foreign minister says people should stop referring to extremists in Iraq and Syria as the Islamic State, arguing that they do not represent Islam or a state.

I wish Muslims would do the same. Stop associating ISIS with Islam.

[SBM]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/ar ... d=11322420

A fantastic proposal by France.

France's foreign minister says people should stop referring to extremists in Iraq and Syria as the Islamic State, arguing that they do not represent Islam or a state.

I wish Muslims would do the same. Stop associating ISIS with Islam.

And I agree whole heartily with this just like I have been saying do not label every organizations as Muslim, just like they never did with Irish Republican Army as Christian they should do the same do not label any organization as Muslim.
As far as your id I really did not care just wanted to point out your cowardice of being scared, nothing more

[anajmi]

Revealing my true identity to you isn't going to make me any less of a coward. Besides, now I believe I was right in the first place. Even the bohra Imam hasn't revealed his true identity.

[humanbeing]

France's foreign minister says people should stop referring to extremists in Iraq and Syria as the Islamic State, arguing that they do not represent Islam or a state. I wish Muslims would do the same. Stop associating ISIS with Islam.

Exactly ! Well said,

The biased media jumps very conveniently branding these terror activities. Use terms like ; Islamist, Jihadist, Ismalic Militia, Jehad etc.

SBM your frustration on muslims countries not supporting other suffering muslims countries is justified, but please remember that these so called muslims countries are actually puppet in hands of western powers mainly US /UK and other vested interest. these pupppets are foolish and immatured who are getting influenced by their own myopic differences of shia/sunni & wahabi and western powers have sensed an amazing opportunity to manipulate these puppets who are blessed with resource of the time “oil”

After 1400 years of Islamic revolution, these arabs latently still have caste system amongs themselves, they have differences of tribal affiliations. They still not over slave culture, the only difference is they have to pay the slaves, disgustingly meager but the treatment and attitude towards their home servants makes one feel, if these so called muslims arabs ever learnt anything from Islamic revolution they were blessed with.

Most of the arab monarchies cant run their country without expats, these guys neither have intellect nor attitude towards forming a capable country. Thus dependent on foreign powers for everything, from cleaning streets to state security. Such dependency makes them insecure and puppets in hands of western powers. They have sold themselves to these western capitalist who facilitate their ayyashi.

The sad situation is, few ayyash monarch royals are dooming their whole nation to depravity.

US dollar stability depends on world’s instability, they need to keep the conflicts going, to sustain their dollar value.

[Ozdundee]

It is time that we Muslims should start taking responsibility and learn from Jews how after they suffered at the hand of Hitler came back and became strong using the World power houses.

There is no need to learn anything from the jews. If you learn from them, then you will end up with them. Learn from the Quran instead.

Fantastic if you solely reading the Quran to run your life, so the computer you have just used to comment is prescribed in the Quran , the vaccination you received when your parents brought you from hospital was prescribed in the Quran ...come on don't degrade your intellectual respect.

I believe SBM is saying learn the stuff that has made them successful ...

Such narrow minded behaviour by over zealous orthodox Muslims has resulted in Muslims regarded as the most unpopular religion at present when we are only 20 % of the global population. In Australia 77% of the population are uncomfortable with Muslims , why because they watch the barbaric behaviour of Isis .

It should also be recognised a minority of 20 million Jews are more materially successful and influential than 1 billion Muslims ..there must be something they are doing better than us Muslims .

Also you need to do your homework and understand the difference between Judaism which is 4000 year old religion before Islam was established , Zionism which is Jewish political strategy before accusing a respected religion .

Therefore Muslims can blame Jews and everything else for their situation for every problem under the sun and remain barbaric , or stop the foolish retarded bigots who go around the globe terrorising people and start using their brains and creativity to be respected and make their lives better.

And for one we should lock up all our priests who preach divisive and hatred including our zadas and the so called back street scholars . There survival is depended on our backwardness and chaos . Muslims if are secular, non dependent wealthy and successful they the priests will be irrelevant.

[anajmi]

Fantastic if you solely reading the Quran to run your life, so the computer you have just used to comment is prescribed in the Quran , the vaccination you received when your parents brought you from hospital was prescribed in the Quran ...come on don't degrade your intellectual respect.

You have understood me exactly right. That is exactly what I am saying. In fact after typing this post I am not going to use a computer anymore since it is not prescribed in the Quran and I am going to get rid of the roof of my garage so I can park a couple of camels in there.

I believe SBM is saying learn the stuff that has made them successful ...

I had no idea. I thought SBM was asking the muslims to learn from the jews how to kill and then get the victims labelled as terrorists. Now that would be something to learn eh?

[anajmi]

It should also be recognised a minority of 20 million Jews are more materially successful and influential than 1 billion Muslims ..there must be something they are doing better than us Muslims .

Of course they are. They've got the world believing that they are the victims. They've managed to get the support of over billions of Christians by dangling the holocaust over their heads. They've been getting muslims blamed for everything going on around. Well, the muslims aren't that cunning. They never were and never will be.

[qutub_mamajiwala]

they are not cunning, but fools to beleive everything is done by us, israel and they are angels
yes they do, but it is the responsibility of muslims also not to get swayed away.
they dont do because they are not intelligent enough.
why?-- allah created everybody with same average intelligence
and they have money also.
but all they do is pump money supporting deviant ideology.
this is a thought process which starts at early childhood.
and they nurture it till adulthood. just see the school cirriculum of thier schools.
only hatred is preached. even if tomorrow isis and taleban and alqaeda and the likes of it are eradicated
totally from the face of earth., there are thousands young children waiting to replace them.
this will go on and on.
even if 10 percent out of million children studying in these countries take up arms, we will have newer version
of them with same ideology.
why blame west. everybody thinks of their national interest only.
if muslims are fools to be led by west, thier education is to be blamed.
they have oil, but can they take out?
is there any worth scientific discovery made by them in last say 200 years?
they are just taught to hate everybody who do not subscribe to their point of view.
they are glorifying selfpittiness.stop whinning and introspect urselves.
playing victim will not get any result

[anajmi]

Yeah right, the palestinians are playing victims. The level of stupidity amongst you people is astonishing!!

[feelgud]

[anajmi]

Well, since we've got 1.2 billion of them these numbers are insignificant. But since there are only 20 million jews, each dead jew is more valuable. So muslims should stop playing the victim and give everything they have (mostly land and oil) to the Americans and Israelis and stop complaining you bigots!!!

[anajmi]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... c1cd7ae66c

Israeli soldiers quit over spy policy

The letter to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the way Israel is using military intelligence “fuels more violence” and entrenches the occupation. “The Palestinian population under military rule is completely ­exposed to espionage and surveillance by Israeli intelligence,” it says. “While there are severe limitations on the surveillance of Israeli citizens, the Palestinians are not afforded this protection.”

The “refusenik soldiers” reject claims that Israel’s continued growth of settlements in the ­Palestinian territories was for ­security. “This regime denies the basic rights and expropriates ­extensive tracts of land for Jewish settlements subject to separate and different legal systems, jurisdiction and law enforcement,” the letter says. “This reality is not an inevitable result of the state’s ­efforts to protect itself but rather the result of choice.”

The soldiers say “we cannot continue to serve this system in good conscience, denying the rights of millions of people”.

One signatory said he felt ­“betrayal” by the unit because they continued teaching recruits “a lie” about a 2003 incident.

He said after a Palestinian terrorist attack in Tel Aviv, authorities decided to destroy a building even though it was a welfare centre run by people who had nothing to do with the attack.

He said normally the unit’s role was to provide intelligence about when a target building was empty but on this occasion the IDF wanted to make sure there were people inside.

“The decision was to target it but this time with people in it, it didn’t matter who,” he said.

“Someone had to be there in order to die.”

And yet the ungrateful palestinians complain about Israel. Learn from the Israelis you miserable muslim fools. Just 20 million have managed to do so much and you people are simply complaining all the time. What is wrong with you Palestinians? You should be thankful that your life is made miserable by the great Israelis who are so much more educated than you, you bigots!!

[anajmi]

http://english.astroawani.com/news/show ... ians-43819

43 Israeli soldiers protest 'abuses' of Palestinians

These are probably ISIS agents. The palestinians should be thankful for the abuse at the hand of the Israelis. Imagine how much more difficult their lives would be in Saudi Arabia under the Wahhabi bigots!!

[Ozdundee]

Anajmi you and others of orthdox bias may think that secular Muslims like myself are imperfect Muslims by your standards. Perfect or imperfect as we try to reform Bohraism we are also dutibound to reform Islamic society for survival and civility. What ever is causing Muslims to be so terribly portrayed has to be addressed. This can be addressed by real actions and courageous reforms and not by anger emotions and blaming others.

Your above comment is twisted. By your comment the soldier you quote is also recipient of your hate. You automatically jump to concluding that anyone who learns are admires the qualities of Jews is anti Muslim. Well it is people like you are target of our reform initiatives.

There is something that is a weakness in our ideology that is motivating us to use into violence Muslims against Muslims sect against sect, belief against belief . You name it Sunni Shia , SMS SKQ , country against country and it is not just soccer rivalry but real bloodshed . This is absolutely shocking that we Muslims who on one side talk about caring charity, mercy , patience and the same verses are sang while some foolish youth go terrorising others in the name of faith and seeking heaven.

Some may justify some actions by quoting history, traditions and Quran , but then this needs caution and serious discussion whether it is left as history and not to be repeated in modern day. I am not an expert to debate why and what those verses imply and why we need to revive them . This also goes to my earlier point Shia cursing Sunni leadership, enacting kerbala beheadings for ever especially when Muharram is round the corner, my pet issue fgm , all infuses a culture of violence , hurt and hate.

Look at this , seeing SMB enacting beheading of Husain As in front of broad based congregation desensitises death. Anyone with basic psychological knowledge would know this kind of acting was completely out of character for a supreme priest.

Whether it is fanned externally or not the executioners , actors and victims are Muslims . I know it is not the majority who are involved, but the few who do so are loudest and go so far that the destructive fallout affects all Muslims.

What I am encouraging through this debate is unite to shut down the anger and extremism , hose down the hate, remove the cause for such actions..if it is ideological then review the ideology. This has to start at grass root.

We show our supremacy by constructive initiatives such as alleviating poverty and hopelessness. Improve the welfare.

And if we cannot do it alone or fear reprisal attacks , authorities in western countries will assist and support you. Let us do something so in future we never see the repeat of what we are seeing today .

Interesting article below , I know you may think it is also Jewish or anti Islamic propaganda , but it is worth considering ...

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-is ... 0fd1m.html

[Ozdundee]

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The ISIL challenge is an ideological battle

Paul Monk
Published: September 12, 2014 - 12:00AM

We are sending forces to Iraq to contribute to a military effort to suppress ISIL. We are doing so for three reasons: that ISIL is committing barbarous acts of genocide and butchery; that it openly seeks to overturn the existing political order in the Middle East; and that it is recruiting foot soldiers from our own country, who declare they will bring violent jihad back here in due course.

Should we be making such a military contribution? Or should we just police our own shores; detaining would-be terrorists if they cause problems here? One could make a utilitarian calculation that our strictly military concerns should be in our own neighbourhood. China, for example, is building artificial islands in the South China Sea to buttress its highly dubious territorial claims there.

Is that of military concern? Not for the time being, anyway. Once we have Japanese submarines, we'll see. It is the nascent caliphate, not the rise of China, that is drawing our fire. It's doing so not on utilitarian or strategic grounds, but on moral ones. ISIL is openly described as evil and that is why we are lining up to fight it. Whatever one thinks of China's claims, no one is denouncing them as evil.

Foreign Minister Julie Bishop came closest to defining the ISIL challenge when she observed last week that the would-be caliphate cannot be defeated by purely military means, but has to be defeated on the ideological battlefield. ISIL embodies a fanatical idea, which in turn motivates its savagery and its (one would certainly like to think) delusional ambitions.

If we are to comprehend ISIL, we need to grapple with that fanatical idea. The fanatical idea is that once there was a glorious Muslim caliphate in which the purity of Koranic revelation provided the basis for the only possible true social order. Then history went horribly wrong, because Mongols and Western Crusaders and Turks and then Western imperialists invaded the blessed Umma and upset the applecart of Allah's plan for history.

Since then, craven and apostate Muslims have ruled the Arab world and led it into poverty and corruption. The only hope for the restoration of Allah's divine order is jihad to overthrow all this and restore the caliphate. That should be done by the traditional Koranic means of killing unbelievers and imposing true Islam on those who submit.

If we put aside our horror at the specific deeds of ISIL and ponder their idea, we will appreciate the nature of the ideological problem we have. It is very like confronting committed Nazis – let's take the Nazi lieutenant colonel Adolf Eichmann as an example – and coming to realise that they really believe their anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and actually think that "world Jewry" is out to get them and has to be destroyed by any means possible.

I use the example of Eichmann, the key engineer of the Holocaust, for a number of reasons. The first is that once Nazism was on a roll, the ideological battle could not be won short of the overwhelming use of force to crush it and reopen the space for democratic order in Germany.

The second is that there was in the 1930s and 1940s and afterwards a disastrous blending of Nazi with Muslim anti-Semitism, the consequences of which we are still dealing with now. The third is that Eichmann, on trial for his crimes in Jerusalem in 1961, was famously described by Hannah Arendt as a "banal" individual unable to morally grasp the enormity of what he had done.

Yet a splendid new work of scholarship by Bettina Stangneth, Eichmann Before Jerusalem: The Unexamined Life of a Mass Murderer demonstrates that Eichmann knew exactly what he had done and was unrepentant, but worked for years before he was captured and put on trial, to develop an alibi, so that he could avoid becoming a scapegoat for those thousands of other Nazis who had got away scot free with mass murder.

The leaders and foot soldiers of ISIL, who are now shooting, crucifying, beheading and enslaving their perceived enemies in northern Iraq and north eastern Syria are best seen as little Eichmanns in all the ways I have enumerated. They will not be halted by sweet reason, they are authentic and brutal fanatics, they are "banal" in that they seriously lack moral imagination; but they know very well what they are doing.

Regrettably, they need to be constrained and as good international citizens it is appropriate that we play at least a modest part in this work. But if their ideology is to be displaced – both there and around the world – a new vision for the Islamic world and for the wretched Arab world in particular, is badly needed.

The common foundation on which such a vision ought to be developed is that when the Arabs broke out of the Arabian peninsula and conquered the Roman and Persian empires in the seventh century, they took over the classical Greek heritage in philosophy and science. That heritage, not the Koran, was the fountainhead of Islamic scholarship and science over the five centuries that followed. That was the chief glory of the caliphate, from Baghdad to Cordoba.

That heritage returned to the West from Muslim Arab sources (often via Jewish translators) just as the Mongols were sacking Baghdad. Things went steadily downhill from there for the Arab world. The question is how to revitalise that world in the 21st century. ISIL and their ilk cry "The Koran!" That's a battle cry, but it's not a solution.

The revitalisation of the Arab world needs to draw upon this history in a non-fanatical and constructive manner. There is no end to the scope for dialogue about science, civilization and the future of the Arabic world. That is the ideological challenge before us. Only when it is addressed will the evil that now looms recede. In the meantime we have to deal strategically with the Eichmanns of Islam.

Paul Monk is an author, former senior intelligence analyst and commentator on public and international affairs.

This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-is ... 0fd1m.html

[anajmi]

That should be done by the traditional Koranic means of killing unbelievers and imposing true Islam on those who submit.

Are you guys still buying this garbage? What then is the difference between you and ISIL? That you are a jew at heart?
Dozens of scholars over the last few decades have explained that the Quran does not advocate the killing of unbelievers and deems the killing of a believer as a crime against the entire humanity. Still people keep claiming that ISIL or ISIS or IS is following the Quran while killing people.

a new vision for the Islamic world and for the wretched Arab world in particular, is badly needed.

Actually, the author is presenting the new vision in disguise which people fail to see. Arabs are Nazis and need to be killed.

[anajmi]

What I am encouraging through this debate is unite to shut down the anger and extremism , hose down the hate, remove the cause for such actions..if it is ideological then review the ideology. This has to start at grass root.

All that is well and good and honky dory. How do you think that is going to cut down the Israeli theft of Palestinian land the help alleviate the misery of the Palestinian people? ISIL wasn't there a year ago. Saddam wasn't there 30 years ago. But the Israeli and American policies were exactly the same. Start at the grass root!!

Here is the bottom line. I am not interested in ISIL. They are a bunch of thugs which will go away in a few months and there will be another group coming up a few months after that. This problem is never going to get solved. The Americans will take care of ISIL just like they did with Al Qaida and whoever comes after that. The question is, who is going to take care of America and Israel. None of you fine folks cause you are busy blaming yourselves!!

[SBM]

who is going to take care of America and Israel

So what is your solution?

[anajmi]

Start with attributing blame where it belongs.

Unfortunately, over here in this community (the bohras) it won't happen. I was just thinking about this and realized that as bohras, we were taught to hate other muslims. We have been taught that other muslims are the killers and murderers. And this has been ingrained into our psyche for centuries. Hence, we are unable to empathize with the Palestinians or the Iraqis. And hence bohras, unfortunately, will always blame the muslims. They are no better than the rest of the world that turns a blind eye to the plight of a desperate people.

The prophet (saw) has said that the muslim ummah is like one body. If any one part is injured the entire body feels it. I don't think the bohras are a part of that body.

[Ozdundee]

Anajmi bhai your last comment was appreciated and there is a beautiful part of you that I was ignorant of , there are things we agree and some we disagree, I am not looking for a win or lose in the debate but share perspectives, we have so much hope, that such communications across the society can replace arguments exploding , I need to go away for a while but hang in there I will be back.

Intellectually I agree with your point there is need to review Israeli and American policies but let us rely on facts and not free lance conspiracy theories. But the topic we need to continue is how we divert hate within our community. Also the link I pasted is an example of one of many options out there unless we find our own options someone else will.

Salams

[SBM]

Start with attributing blame where it belongs.

Unfortunately, over here in this community (the bohras) it won't happen. I was just thinking about this and realized that as bohras, we were taught to hate other muslims. We have been taught that other muslims are the killers and murderers. And this has been ingrained into our psyche for centuries. Hence, we are unable to empathize with the Palestinians or the Iraqis. And hence bohras, unfortunately, will always blame the muslims. They are no better than the rest of the world that turns a blind eye to the plight of a desperate people.

The prophet (saw) has said that the muslim ummah is like one body. If any one part is injured the entire body feels it. I don't think the bohras are a part of that body.

you had been bashing America and Israel and talking about blaming Jews for all the problem in Muslim world and when I asked for the solution you put the blame on Dawoodi Bohra, a community which lives in a bubble and their thinking does not go beyond whatever Kothari Goons says.
Your solution of entire Jewish-American and Israeli conspiracy against Muslim Ummah comes down to Bohras?