Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

[bohrikaka]

The current alavi dai is a big fan of 51st dawoodi dai. Need I say more ?

[dal-chaval-palidu]

He's referring to the London Charity Commission declaration.

haqniwaat,

Thanks bhai. And any idea as to why did the London Charity Commission declared in favor of SMS and against Syedna Qutbuddin? What was the declaration and was it an interim one? Thanks in advance.

Bhai Haqniwaat,

Do you have any more info on the above point? Thanks in advance.

-----------------------------------------
Also, this is applicable to all: Is it possible that the material submitted by both the sides in the Court case can be made public? This is a public interest case, and the Bohra community would like to have access to this material. After all, this case is as much about winning the hearts and minds of the common Bohra people (influencing Bohra public opinion) as it is about winning the legal case. And I hope that the transcripts of the court testimony/cross examination are also available.

Is there any submission that is available for the public right now?

[haqniwaat]

I'm still waiting for the submission info from my source. Yes, it would be nice if the court would simply publish it.

[haqniwaat]

Update on previous post:

Apparently, the reason why the submissions cannot be made public is because the case is still ongoing. But yes, the submission that "nass can be changed" was submitted by Qaid bs the Great Laanat Partier.

[saminaben]

If Nass can be changed, and if SMB changed nass, wouldn't SMB have an obligation to the Dawat to make it crystal clear, especially to his Maazun And To the mumineen. (wait!! Dont get started on the nass after the stroke pronouncement. that was not crystal clear, when for ashara after ashara, miqaats after miqaats, Mumineen flocked to hear Burhanuddin Maula's CRYSTAL clear bayaans. There were way too many opportunities during SMB's perfect speech and perfect capacity, that he could easily have done so. Thereby avoiding all this unnecessary turmoil) .... Looks to me that if Nass was indeed legitimately changed while SMB was in perfect health, neither SKQ nor SMS are responsible for all this mess, and nobody is lying. If there was fault, it was fault of omission, fault of SMB not making it CRYSTAL CLEAR by announcing in public and especially informing his Maazun in public and private of same.

Where is The faith now? The faith called for by SMS demonizes SKQ with Laanats, bullying and Nass declared while SMB recovering from aftermath of massive stroke. The faith called for by SKQ relies on 30 years of Being sidelined and conspiracy from YN family, PLUS an accusation of staged hoax of Nass from entire SMB clan PLUS a private nass 49 years ago.. . . Both sides have allowed no room for fault on SMB's part, and therefore have not attempted to make the best of a bad situation. That would be going against protocol and being disrespectful to the deceased. And in this antagonist setting no one wants to back off or bendbackwards to have decent conversations or debate lest they may be declared as loser.

What madness - utter foolish madness! Get real - all you peoples attempting to control our aa'kherat. We are losing faith in you all in this duniya, you both sides claim to be heavenly, with your worldly dispute, there's nothing whatsoever you can do for us in the afterlife while you are struggling for your own legitimacy in this world.

[humanbeing]

the submission that "nass can be changed" was submitted by Qaid bs the Great Laanat Partier.

That is an interesting twist ! if QJ has submitted some theories stating that “nass” can be changed ! it implies that “nass” was done on mazoon 50 years ago !

Very interesting !!

[kimanumanu]

the submission that "nass can be changed" was submitted by Qaid bs the Great Laanat Partier.

That is an interesting twist ! if QJ has submitted some theories stating that “nass” can be changed ! it implies that “nass” was done on mazoon 50 years ago !

Very interesting !!

So there was a zahir nass and a batin nass as well???

[haqniwaat]

Let's get serious, people. It's simple. Syedna Qutbuddin says nass was done on him, and that's that. He was mazoon. Who are you going to believe - mufaddal bs and his crazy laanat party brother or the mazoon whose name you took in your misaaq for over 50 years?
Can't figure it out still? Don't blame you - mufaddal bs and gang have won!

[level_headed]

haqniwaat - Whose rutba is higher - Dai or Mazoon ? If the answer is Dai, then will you believe the Dai or the mazoon. The Dai has proclaimed Syedna Mufaddal as his successor publicly - in Raudat Tahera and the hospital. The hospital video could not have been clearer. It was a slap in the face of the KQ clan.

Who are you going to believe - mufaddal bs and his crazy laanat party brother or the mazoon whose name you took in your misaaq for over 50 years?

The mumineen will always believe Syedna Burhanuddin RA's nass proclamation on Syedna Mufaddal TUS against the self-proclamation of KQ.

Vichoo ne saamp thee chhe bhoonda bashar woh beshaq
Nass na dhani thee je koyee munkar thayee phira chhe

Inkaar ni khata thee darjo ae ahle deeno
Inkaar ni khata to Iblis ni khata chhe ( zinger - these 2 lines are for you )

[haqniwaat]

Yeah, we all totally believe the "nass" in London and Rozat Tahera. Syedna Burhanuddin RA spoke loud and clear.
It's interesting, though, that most followers already knew about the nass before it happened - that's why they were calling mufaddal bs 'mola' for as long as anyone can remember. How convenient.
And don't even talk about inkar when your gang has been giving misaaq with mazoon's name and instantly turning around and name calling him. What a joke! What a great theory - zahir batin!

[Moiz_Dhaanu]

the submission that "nass can be changed" was submitted by Qaid bs the Great Laanat Partier.

That is an interesting twist ! if QJ has submitted some theories stating that “nass” can be changed ! it implies that “nass” was done on mazoon 50 years ago !
Very interesting !!

So intially the whole Kasre-aali and kothar were singing the same tune : "SKQ is telling a lie and there was no such private nass done on him".
Now by presenting in court that "nass can be changed" are they accepting that nass was done on SKQ , but now its changed to Shz MS by some strange concoction of their highly imaginative understanding of Dawat's doctrines

Truly a interesting turn of events!!
I would like to point out here, that, dont these abdes have a thinking brain to ask their ShzQJ as to how come in the middle of court proceedings did their stance on Nass protocols suddenly change.
If they cant even ask such simple question , i truly pity their slavery towards Shz MS

[kimanumanu]

The silence of Syedna Burhanuddin RA spoke volumes far louder than all the drama that was staged. I have listened to the clear audio recording of the Raudat Tahera nass episode and despite being given a paper to read, he refused and instead kept saying "Mohammed naam chhe" and "Mohammed bhai ne" despite Dr. Moiz prompting him to say "Mufaddal" to the extent that Dr. Moiz snatched the mic away and read the paper himself.

[zinger]

Let's get serious, people. It's simple. Syedna Qutbuddin says nass was done on him, and that's that. He was mazoon. Who are you going to believe - mufaddal bs and his crazy laanat party brother or the mazoon whose name you took in your misaaq for over 50 years?
Can't figure it out still? Don't blame you - mufaddal bs and gang have won!

you get serious bro. if it really was as simple as that, we wouldnt be in the mess we are today as a community, a bloody laughing stock we have made of ourselves

[Ozdundee]

In the last 9 months can both the contenders SMS and SKQ show what achievements they have made that has progressed the welfare of the community, including how they have purified the faith.

No fun or sarcasm just pure facts and figures.

Note meeting VIPs or collecting cash or jet trotting to be Excluded.

Meetings or meditation in international Islamic issues, scholarly research, books , journals can be stated

Achievements of princes or deciples is not counted

The case has not resulted in any outcome there looks like no outcome in near future, I stated somewhere 5 years is good estimate

Bohras are more further away from spiritual state, unity is driftng towards disunity , Bohras are laughing stock, international authorities see Bohras as medieval fgm cult, money and greed by the priests, Into oath taking into cult worship , Muslims know more about our deviant practises than before, raids in Saudi Arabia Malaysia so that is negative marks

Is it not a question in any sensible Muslim mind the 2 claimants have not shown courage or devotion to visit the Prophets SAW site and umrah or hajj as this being their first year in power. Now how silly will theyook like when in Muharam they will over the top show grief , how much drama is too much .

I am looking for positive marks

I can only say the succession though peaceful has created fractures and no real leadership from both sides as they rely on emotional choices

[tasneempati]

Dadi wale Certified mumin hote he ?
Rida wali sab sharifzaadi hoti he ?
Very doubtful Mr Makkaji?

its good Qutbis have no chance to win any cases, or else they would drag community into.

Interest
Gambling (stock market)
Clean shave (munafiq looks)
Behayayi (dropping rida)
and many more fitnah.

[haqniwaat]

Mr. Makkaji,
To the faithful, it doesn't matter who wins the cases. And to answer your remarks, nobody is saying to deal in interest and the stock market isn't gambling. If it was, then not only the entire "royal family" but even the 51st and 52nd Dai's would have been "gambling" according to you, as they all held stocks. Try wearing a "terrorist" looking daari in the West when you go looking for a job! And nobody is dropping ridas. You sound so much like a muffy zombie, it's pathetic!

[adna_mumin]

Mr. Makkaji,
To the faithful, it doesn't matter who wins the cases. And to answer your remarks, nobody is saying to deal in interest and the stock market isn't gambling. If it was, then not only the entire "royal family" but even the 51st and 52nd Dai's would have been "gambling" according to you, as they all held stocks. Try wearing a "terrorist" looking daari in the West when you go looking for a job! And nobody is dropping ridas. You sound so much like a muffy zombie, it's pathetic!

Bhai haqniwaat, Aa waat Haq ni nathi.
Since when has Sunnat e rasool SAW of keeping a beard started to look like a "terrorist" to you? You end up on the side of the right-wing argument that some in Western media want to paint Muslims with.
I can proudly claim to be adhering to the faith at least in this regard, in the West, and indeed faced no issues so far, Alhamdolillah.

HussainMakkaji,
I will tell this to myself first, but exercising restraint is always a good idea to have while in a conversation. False allegations are strongly prohibited in the very faith you seem to love so much.

[humanbeing]

The silence of Syedna Burhanuddin RA spoke volumes far louder than all the drama that was staged. I have listened to the clear audio recording of the Raudat Tahera nass episode and despite being given a paper to read, he refused and instead kept saying "Mohammed naam chhe" and "Mohammed bhai ne" despite Dr. Moiz prompting him to say "Mufaddal" to the extent that Dr. Moiz snatched the mic away and read the paper himself.

I am just wondering, why haven’t ADAM jumped to this post and thumped down his explanation of clear, audible and unambiguous proclamation of “nuss” by SMB on SMS.

Since the major stroke that SMB had and hospitalization in London, there was an event where SMB was decorated and bought in front of public. He struggled miserably to speak and his struggle bought tears. It was painful to see SMB who once orated with good command struggle with his speech at the same time, it served reminder from allah, that how vulnerable humans are.

Since then, SMB was paraded decorated on palkhi, regularly in front of public. Personally I felt it very sad and humiliating for SMB to be paraded / showcased by his family like that. Event after event we saw SMB’s physical appearance going bad. SMB’s family ( SMS camp) took full advantage of SMB’s mute and helplessness to garner sympathy, publicity and affiliation from spiritually hungry and intellectually bankrupt abdes.

SMB seemed so heavily sedated, many a times he just appeared like a lifeless body sat on palkhi. Suddenly there was news of him recovering and drama of “nuss” in the hospital and the raudat tahera happened. The mental and physical condition of SMB was never convincing to believe that he was in a position to communicate an important decision of “nuss” unambiguously !

All the jazzy videos / audios, suddenly conjured diaries, witnesses are a major sham / con pulled up by SMS camp and are now hell bent on drumming this lies until it becomes truth to save & sustain themselves. Common sense can see how desperate, insecure, foul mouthing, sensitive, arrogant and brash SMS camp is. Foolishly they have displayed their hatred and animosities within their family to outside public. There was a time ardent abdes used to take the kothar ( qasre-aali & bait-e-zaini) as pure bloods and divine. Such public bashing, laanat baazi has shaken the abde’s belief in them as divine and now they come across as any other routine family fighting over wealth and power. SMS, QJ and other Kothari chamchas who encourage laanat baazi in their myopic, self centered arrogance are actually digging their own grave, repelling people from SMS ideaologies and embarrasinly justifying to others and forcing themselves to go with flow. SMS camp has begun their journey of lies and there is no looking back.

[haqniwaat]

Humanbeing bhai (or ben),
I agree. However, Kothar is neither Qasre Aali nor Bait-e Zaini. Qasre Aali are the children of Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Bait-e Zaini are the children of Syedna Taiyeb Zainuddin. Kothar are not part of the royal family but non-royals who are in khidmat.

[UnhappyBohra]

Humanbeing bhai (or ben),
I agree. However, Kothar is neither Qasre Aali nor Bait-e Zaini. Qasre Aali are the children of Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Bait-e Zaini are the children of Syedna Taiyeb Zainuddin. Kothar are not part of the royal family but non-royals who are in khidmat.

Who are you calling "royal?" The Money hungry, backstabbing, infighting jerks that live in Saifee Mahal? If they are "royal," I am the King of the Americas.

Really dislike this distinction between Bohras and the Dai's family. If we accept them as royalty, we deserve to be treated as commoners. In my opinion, their lowly behavior proves that they are worse than the scum of this earth.

[canadian]

^
I believe haqniwaat is one of the so-called royals from KQ side, just like adam is from MS side.

[UnhappyBohra]

^
I believe haqniwaat is one of the so-called royals from KQ side, just like adam is from MS side.

I have seen the children of SKQ. They don't act like fake royalty. They work for their living. It improves the value of a human being more than any fake notion of royalty.
Also, I don't believe Adam is from Saifee Mahal. I think he is a Jamea graduate.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Also, I don't believe Adam is from Saifee Mahal. I think he is a Jamea graduate.

some comments....

1. i really like your i.d. 'unhappy bohra'. it probably sums up the state of all the bohras today. you should be nominated the universal representative of all bohras, much like ban ki moon, the secy general of the UN.
2. adam is a lost and very bitter soul out on a mission. his mission is to defend his misogynist shikari master at all costs, come what may. logic, truth, integrity all are selleable commodities when it comes to the crookedness of his tyrannical boss. adam's primary mission though is the search for his hawwa who seems to have gone AWOL, a' la hawa hawai. adam used to be the apple of mufatlal's eyes, but since he ate the forbidden apple, he has been hurled from heaven (aka saifee daras) into the hot and humid mawaids of FMB, where his eternal punishment is to dish out lies, half-truths, deception and slippery guile into the dabba thali's of ignorant abdes. he has sold his soul to the devil and with every lie, further he goes from his hawwa. what a pitiful figure...tsk tsk...

[haqniwaat]

Humanbeing bhai (or ben),
I agree. However, Kothar is neither Qasre Aali nor Bait-e Zaini. Qasre Aali are the children of Syedna Taher Saifuddin and Bait-e Zaini are the children of Syedna Taiyeb Zainuddin. Kothar are not part of the royal family but non-royals who are in khidmat.

Who are you calling "royal?" The Money hungry, backstabbing, infighting jerks that live in Saifee Mahal? If they are "royal," I am the King of the Americas.

Really dislike this distinction between Bohras and the Dai's family. If we accept them as royalty, we deserve to be treated as commoners. In my opinion, their lowly behavior proves that they are worse than the scum of this earth.

I am trying to explain the difference between kothar and others whom you all keep calling kothar. I don't need a lecture on their royalness. Thanks.

[UnhappyBohra]

Who are you calling "royal?" The Money hungry, backstabbing, infighting jerks that live in Saifee Mahal? If they are "royal," I am the King of the Americas.

Really dislike this distinction between Bohras and the Dai's family. If we accept them as royalty, we deserve to be treated as commoners. In my opinion, their lowly behavior proves that they are worse than the scum of this earth.

I am trying to explain the difference between kothar and others whom you all keep calling kothar. I don't need a lecture on their royalness. Thanks.

Don't use descriptor's that don't apply. There are many of more noble character outside the walls of Saifee Mahal who don't believe it is their birthright to loot the people and live kingly lives off the spoils.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

^
I believe haqniwaat is one of the so-called royals from KQ side, just like adam is from MS side.

I have seen the children of SKQ. They don't act like fake royalty. They work for their living. It improves the value of a human being more than any fake notion of royalty.
Also, I don't believe Adam is from Saifee Mahal. I think he is a Jamea graduate.

---------------------

To the extent that the above is true, it is very creditable to the KQ side. They seem to be the minority from the STS family tree. A large part of the decendents of STS have taken the part of being "professional priests" and I beleive that this professional preisthood is a part of the problem in our community.

For the profesisonal priests, they have to cook up some activity or the other to keep themselves busy and to justify themselves. If they were working (something else) for a living, they would not have as much incentive to create non-essential activities for the community; and they would be more appreciative of the constraints that working people face.

Finally, it is also consistent with those whom we should take as our role model: Maulana Ali worked for a living, and we mention it in the waiz all the time. Who is a better standards bearer of Islam than Moulana Ali, so why don't they follow him and practise what they preach?

[UnhappyBohra]

I have seen the children of SKQ. They don't act like fake royalty. They work for their living. It improves the value of a human being more than any fake notion of royalty.
Also, I don't believe Adam is from Saifee Mahal. I think he is a Jamea graduate.

---------------------

To the extent that the above is true, it is very creditable to the KQ side. They seem to be the minority from the STS family tree. A large part of the decendents of STS have taken the part of being "professional priests" and I beleive that this professional preisthood is a part of the problem in our community.

For the profesisonal priests, they have to cook up some activity or the other to keep themselves busy and to justify themselves. If they were working (something else) for a living, they would not have as much incentive to create non-essential activities for the community; and they would be more appreciative of the constraints that working people face.

Finally, it is also consistent with those whom we should take as our role model: Maulana Ali worked for a living, and we mention it in the waiz all the time. Who is a better standards bearer of Islam than Moulana Ali, so why don't they follow him and practise what they preach?

My point exactly. If platoon that lives in Saifee Mahal lives off the hard work of others and are not engaged in doing khidmat of mumineen in some other way, it does not make them "royal," it just makes them lazy! Throughout my life I have been in numerous situations where I am obliged to do salaams to toddlers, babies and teens. One wonders what they did to earn this money. What sort of work ethic and value system is being instilled in these children? In most jamaats, the host is obliged to do salaam to every single member of the bhaisab's family, including toddlers and babies, for every single miqat. Even my amte wife complains about bensabs who stand up to "serve" jaman on 8th Moharram on Aqa Moula's behalf with the idea that if they stand up and look pretty, the jaman will serve itself.

[haqniwaat]

I'm just trying to explain the difference to you guys! Why are you pelting the messenger? And yes, most of the so-called royals are as you all say, but there are exceptions.

[dal-chaval-palidu]

I'm just trying to explain the difference to you guys! Why are you pelting the messenger? And yes, most of the so-called royals are as you all say, but there are exceptions.

Can you name the exceptions (in your judgement) and the reasons why you consider them so?

[haqniwaat]

I'm just trying to explain the difference to you guys! Why are you pelting the messenger? And yes, most of the so-called royals are as you all say, but there are exceptions.

Can you name the exceptions (in your judgement) and the reasons why you consider them so?

If I did, you'd be shocked.