FEMALE CIRCUMCISION

[Guest]

The year is 2001.As human beings,we have progressed dramatically during the past century.Equal rights for all,right? Wrong. Not at least for bohris because of Burhanuddin's regime ("Thug Kotharis")- they imposing ridiculous "fatwas" for past more than fifty years and robbing the community.Their belief in equality for all not exist,barbaric and mutilating practices prevent some women from enjoying the simple unspoken natural gift of sexual pleasure.<p>Female Circumcision Operations are a prime example of a cult type religion practice that has potentially great medical implications. The emotional and physical implications of this demeaning practice need to be stopped immediately. Women who have undergone such an operation have emotional problems such as anger and rage. In some cases, these women have resorted to feelings of embarrassment and acceptance. Medical complications can include sexual dysfunction caused by mental and physical trauma,scarring, and lacerations in the genital area. The continued use of this medical procedure is indeed a tragedy. It seems that strong measures could be imposed on to stop the mutilation.After all, isn't mutilation a crime?

[Guest]

attn:Ishaq<p>That's what you get and will continue to get for trying to EMULATE the 7th century ways of the sunnis.<p><br>

[Guest]

Is it a requirement that all Bohri women are circumcised? Is it still happening? What happens to new converts, are they required to be circumcised whatever there age?

[Right]

Brother Human,

We should discuss reagrding female circumcission under this thread.

I fully agree with you that there is no necesscity to do such thing to female, neither it is Sunnah by Prophet nor it is benefical for health.

[ATH]

I fully agree with you that there is no necesscity to do such thing to female, neither it is Sunnah by Prophet nor it is benefical for health.

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/hygiene/f ... cision.htm
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/9412 - Circumcision: how it is done and the rulings on it
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/7073 - The health and religious benefits of circumcision
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/45528 - Medical benefits of female circumcision

[Conscíous]

The year is 2001.As human beings,we have progressed dramatically during the past century.Equal rights for all,right? Wrong. Not at least for bohris because of Burhanuddin's regime ("Thug Kotharis")- they imposing ridiculous "fatwas" for past more than fifty years and robbing the community.Their belief in equality for all not exist,barbaric and mutilating practices prevent some women from enjoying the simple unspoken natural gift of sexual pleasure.<p>Female Circumcision Operations are a prime example of a cult type religion practice that has potentially great medical implications. The emotional and physical implications of this demeaning practice need to be stopped immediately. Women who have undergone such an operation have emotional problems such as anger and rage. In some cases, these women have resorted to feelings of embarrassment and acceptance. Medical complications can include sexual dysfunction caused by mental and physical trauma,scarring, and lacerations in the genital area. The continued use of this medical procedure is indeed a tragedy. It seems that strong measures could be imposed on to stop the mutilation.After all, isn't mutilation a crime?

female genital mutilation is a serious criminal a fence, with big jail time in my country. This fanatic bohras don't see women as human being.. For them, they are for making baby's, cooking, cleaning and as sex slave. If a woman has more then one partner she is a whore, while it's ok for men!! I believe, the whole reason for FGM is to control women psychology.

I wonder, what Allah "think's" of FGM?

[Human]

Brother Human,

We should discuss reagrding female circumcission under this thread.

I fully agree with you that there is no necesscity to do such thing to female, neither it is Sunnah by Prophet nor it is benefical for health.

Thanks for re-activating this thread Bro Right. I also admire your support against the practice of female genital mutilation. It is something very wrong on moral and medical grounds.

[Human]

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/hygiene/f ... cision.htm

Makes me laugh to read the benefits of female genital mutilation. How people can manage to stir up advantages of practices that are clearly harmful; also the information on that website is not from a credible resource and only stands as much chance as an abde purchasing a website space and typing making up stuff like advantage of wearing topi, keeping dadhi and wearing saaya.

[Human]

If a woman has more then one partner she is a whore, while it's ok for men!!

I agree with this totally! On logical grounds, I did raise this concern on a thread on Islam today and after having a fair bit of arguments, I'm now reading a non-arabic version of Quran to understand Islam better.

[Human]

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/hygiene/f ... cision.htm
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/9412 - Circumcision: how it is done and the rulings on it
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/7073 - The health and religious benefits of circumcision
http://islamqa.com/en/ref/45528 - Medical benefits of female circumcision

ATH, I've referred to the links you posted and all I can say is it sounds like a commentary from a right wing person. The websites you quoted are not credible sources as I mentioned before, they are only as good as things published on malumaat.com or zeninfosys or mumineen.org
Here's some information from a credible source fully backed with medical information. You can try to cross check some medical websites that see things from a neutral point of view and find out for yourself if female genital mutilation is good or bad.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
http://www.emro.who.int/dsaf/dsa54.pdf

[guy_sam2005]

admin,
why was my post taken off...i didnt abuse anyone in particular,it was just a general argumentive post...why do u just take off our posts and not those of your side though they are far more abusive..

[ATH]

ATH, I've referred to the links you posted and all I can say is it sounds like a commentary from a right wing person. The websites you quoted are not credible sources as I mentioned before, they are only as good as things published on malumaat.com or zeninfosys or mumineen.org
Here's some information from a credible source fully backed with medical information. You can try to cross check some medical websites that see things from a neutral point of view and find out for yourself if female genital mutilation is good or bad.
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
http://www.emro.who.int/dsaf/dsa54.pdf

Human, I feel that the links that you have provided belong to people who have a leftist mentality, with no regards whatsoever for Allah and his creations. What you feel is right, may not necessarily be right and what you feel is wrong is not always wrong. If you are talking about neutrality, then you need to take into account other peoples point of view as well, without an "I am always correct" attitude. You can put across you opinion, but don't pass a judgement.

Secondly, the website links that I have provided belongs to Sunni Muslims. So, this proves that this practice of female circumcision is practised not only by bohras, as projected by you, but by the general muslim population as well.

As far as the question of things being posted on malumaat goes, every website is owned by someone or the other, who will always try to project their point of view of things. This particular website is owned by bohras, who have a different thinking than what Abde Syedna's have. And their point of view is very well projected on this website. We Abde Syedna's refer to this website as "not credible information". Do you agree to this? Do you accept the fact that this website belongs to a right winger or left winger and his views are biased?

... as an abde purchasing a website space and typing making up stuff like advantage of wearing topi, keeping dadhi and wearing saaya.

Can you prove, from credible sources ofcourse, that Prophet Mohammed did not have a beard, or that he did not wear a turban on his head or that he did not wear a long overcoat over his clothes, a piece of clothing which people in Saudi wear even today. If the Prophet did these things, then it is only correct that we follow his Sunnah. If you don't like these things, again I repeat, you have the right to voice your opinion. But don't make it sound like a judgement. If you don't like it, don't do it. Don't try to impress upon people that it is bad and that no one should follow it.

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Amen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[ozmujaheed]

If you don't like it, don't do it.

ATH is Bohraism rituals as simple advice as you put it ? Come on have some decency if you guys were so tolerant why would we have so many posts on this website !

[ATH]

ATH is Bohraism rituals as simple advice as you put it ?

The answer is Yes and No. For all those who follow the rituals religously, they are very simple. And for those who don't, it is very very difficult. Following the rules laid down by Islam, is in itself very very difficult. But if you have been doing them regularly, they are very simple. Agree?

Come on have some decency if you guys were so tolerant why would we have so many posts on this website !

Sorry, I just could not understand this statement of yours. What has decency got to do with tolerance and tolerance with posts on this website. Still I will try to answer you to the best of my ability.

I have mentioned in my earlier post, everyone is entitled to their opinion. And you can express it as it long as it is not abusive and offensive to any individual. This website is offering you a medium to express your opinion. Which you and many others are doing. No harm in that. The moment someone feels that the line is being crossed, you can expect tolerance level going down. I hope you agree with this.

And as far as tolerance goes: visit any masjid in India during prayer time (specially afternoon and evening). You will find a few people who are clean shaven, many many who either have a trimmed or french beard and many more who come wearing shirt / pant. Everyone is allowed despite there being a diktak that people should be appropriatly dressed for namaz. People come, offer prayers and leave. No one is ever stopped. Similar tolerance level is shown round the year, for any majlis or function. As long as you don't cross the limit.

P.S. - I am travelling out of Mumbai for some work. Please don't get agitated if I don't reply soon.

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Ameen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[SBM]

As long as you don't cross the limit.

And what are the limits and who defines the limits? Local Aamil-or some of his Goons?

[ATH]

And what are the limits and who defines the limits? Local Aamil-or some of his Goons?

Every person defines his own limit of tolerance. If I, an unknown person to you, were to abuse you, probably you will react in a different manner compared to if your friend or brother abused you. You would surely be more tolerant towards them.

P.S. - I am travelling out of Mumbai for some work. Please don't get agitated if I don't reply soon.

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Ameen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[ozmujaheed]

Can someone from India confirm ATH's statement on tolerance ?

ATH does this apply to collection of funds ?

[ATH]

ATH does this apply to collection of funds ?

My personal experience says there is tolerance. A little give and take is there. And as long as you are paying your Zakat as per your financial status, there is no issue at all. I have even seen people who sit in the Amil's office and bargain - sometimes for upto an hour. But then there is no offence or ill feeling carried forward. Not agreeing with someone's elses point of view does not mean becoming a rebel. You can always have healthy disagreements.

Secondly, for any voluntary contribution, it is your personal choice whether you want to pay or not. No compulsion is used. But if you have committed money towards a certain project and then if you don't pay on time, you will be asked to pay up. And in some cases, a stern voice may have to be used. It is the same thing as - if some of your client has promised to pay you on a certain date, and if they miss the deadline, what would be your position? Since, based on their payment, you may have also committed some payments. Will you not ask your client to pay up?

May Allah grant a very long and healthy life to Aqa Mola (TUS). Ameen

Abde Syedna,
ATH

[master.b00t]

do baras ka khel baaki he.

[Conscíous]

Just came from the bohra temple. It was heart breaking to see some of the small children wound be victims of this satanic ritual and there was nothing I could do

I really feel sorry for those poor soul's .. who are going to miss out on one of the greatest pleasure and joy, Allah had given them.

[Al Zulfiqar]

this topic has a funny way of popping up at regular intervals on this site and other forums. i often wonder at the motivation behind whoever is out to reinstate interest in this subject.

either the motivation is to titillate or get into some sort of a proxy war, whereby opponents of the practice of FGM hurl it at die-hard islamophobes as a method of hurling abuse or getting even, or its started by someone totally ignorant of what the whole thing is about and wants to learn more.

let us analyse this whole subject dispassionately first from the angle of science and then come to islam.

there are several different types of procedures which can be carried out as part of female genital circumcision.

1. clitoral hood reduction or clitoroplexy: this usually involves a highly delicate and precise partial reduction of the clitoral hood, a thick prepuce of skin which covers and affords protection to the extremely sensitive organ which is called the clitoris, sitting at the top junction of the labia minora and being an inherent part of these external genitalia. this surgery affords enhanced sexual pleasure and feeling of well-being to its recipient, improves genital health as it reduces accumulation of secretions and resultant bacterial growth and odor. it also leads to better hygeine and maintenance of the same.
2. clitorodectomy, also known as clitorectomy: this could mean partial or total removal of the clitoris in childhood and necessarily, partial removal of the labia minora or labioplasty. this type of procedure almost always will never be performed by a licensed professional as it would be against the principles of medicine and surgery, unless warranted by some mitigated crcumstances, which is very rare. such a procedure will not only remove much of the delicate and sensitive nerve receptors that make sex enjoyable for the female and allow her normal human responses, but will in fact cause her pain and accompanying psychological trauma, distress and revulsion from a normal sexual act. most women will learn over time to disguise these negative feelings for sake of marital bliss and harmony, but are in fact being cruelly deprived of their god-given rights to enjoy that which Allah has guaranteed them.
3. FGM or female genital mutilation: this is procedure no.2 carried out in the extreme, i.e. total excision and removal of the clitoris, almost the entire labia minora, and sometimes the addition of internal suturing to reduce the size of the vaginal opening, enough to allow only the passage of menstrual fluids. this is practised by many african tribes in the sudan, somalia, central and west africa and up until recently in north africa as well. this would often lead to serious health complications, severe internal and external bleeding, disfigurement and crippling infections with life-long disabilities or death as the result. a female who has undergone this will no doubt suffer in silence, but develop feelings of hatred and disgust towards men, society and the sex act. ayan hirsi ali is a victim of such cruelty and its only the opportunity of freedom in the west which has given her the courage to speak out.
4. Vaginoplasty: the recent modern craze of 'enhancing' the natural appearance of female genitalia, by a combination of labiaplasty, slight clitoral hood reduction and plastic surgery to balance and achieve a more symmetrical look in length, size and color of external genitalia. a lot of this is man-made hysteria whipped up by commercial clinics and unscrupulous doctors who specialise in corrective surgery, but is purely a matter of choice and affordability.

what is being practised by bohras is procedure 2 in various degrees, depending on where they live and who is carrying it out. as most of the traditional old women practioners of this procedure in our community are dying and gone, we have bohra lady doctors surreptitiously practising this, who would be carrying out partial clitorodectomy and labiaplasty. from most of my experiences and knowledge, most bohra women from the previous generation were being subjected to an almost 75% clitorodectomy and labial reduction. the newer generation perhaps upto 50-65%, i guess. many liberal bohra parents are opting not to subject their daughters to this.

now finally coming to islam. how can a religion which has throughout the quran and in the life and conduct of its prophet, enjoined equality betwen men and women in terms of piety, endeavour, modesty, work, rewards, punishment, justice, and all the other human values, inflict cruelty on one gender for the selfish interests of the other? the reasons why male circumcision is prescribed in islam is well-known. if health, hygeine and marital pleasure are prescribed for the male, would the females be prescribed its opposite? pain, cruelty and slavery? deprivation of all that is her right in beauty and delight by Allah? just so that she remain subservient and docile and open to abuse by male chauvinists as an object of sadistic pleasure? so she can remain captive and not experience the pleasures and therefore not ask for her rights in marriage?

who else but an insecure male chauvinist, unable to perform or satisfy his wife fully, who wishes to subjugate her as chattel and thus prop up his fragile male ego, who has long-entrenched misogynistic views, would come up with such barbaric cruelty which is being practised in the name of islam? this is another shameless attempt to malign islam by backward and pagan societies who wish to practise those very tribal customs which islam came to remove.

if i remember correctly, asgharali engineer in his book, "the rights of women in islam", in fact correctly mentions that islam and the prophet were courageous enough to actually prescribe partial removal of the clitoral hood, to ENHANCE a woman's sexual experience, not suppress it or extinguish it, and made it mandatory on a man to satisfy his wife as much as he sought his own. in fact, a woman who was denied her conjugal rights could ask for a divorce.

the curious fact in these debates is that its 99.9% ignorant men who rush in like fools to comment. the protagonists with the most right to comment on what has been done to them, are silent or do not participate. another shining example of male chauvinism. bohras who tout themselves as the most modern and liberal of all muslims, have an ancient and totally backward leader who prefers to remain silent or be complicit in this perverted tribal custom which has no basis in islam.

[guy_sam2005]

do baras ka khel baaki he.

uske baad?

[guy_sam2005]

Just came from the bohra temple. It was heart breaking to see some of the small children wound be victims of this satanic ritual and there was nothing I could do

I really feel sorry for those poor soul's .. who are going to miss out on one of the greatest pleasure and joy, Allah had given them.

feel sorry for yourself..allah has not sent you as his rasool to worry about us,we can very well take care of ourselves and that of our children,,,

[ozmujaheed]

ATH is reincarnated Hades fatema or survivor of Kothar frontline force

Point blanc to the topic answer this regardless of it merits or demerits

Is Female circumcision encouraged within ladies and is it sanctioned by the Kothar establishment ? Yes/NO

If you or community found out a girl has not is she frowned upon ? Yes/No

If your diai found out that a girl has not circumcised will he be unhappy ? Yes/No

In countries where the law bans it will you encourage people to continue and break the law or publicly discourage ?

[master.b00t]

sunnat ka sex se koi sambandh nahin he, sex ka sambandh hamare body ke andar ke aura-body se he jo shukshm shareer ke naam se bhi jana jata he. sunnat ka kaaran vaigyanik he. jannendriya ke rogo se bachne ke liye sunnat upayogi he. vastutah hamari sabhi kaam vaasana aura-body se aati he, agar aura-body pratiti janak kaam vaasana me leen ho to sunnat karane wale ko bhi utna hi anubhav hoga jitna bina sunnat wale ko hota he. haqiqat me hamara man Raaja he aur hamara is chamadi ka shareer Raani he, Raaja( aura-body (man) agar order kare to Raani ( sthul shareer-chamdi ka shareer) ko uske niche, uske mutabik, react karna hoga. is liye jab bhi hum kaamuk hote he to kaam vaasana pehle hamare man se aati he aur last me shareer se pragat hoti he.

[guy_sam2005]

aap khena kya chahte hai boot saab,
aurto ko katana chaiye ya nahi?

[master.b00t]

mere khayaal se female ki sunnat agar jannendriya ke rogo ke liye ho to karani chahiye
,lekin agar sunnat ka aim sex ka kum hona ho, to mere hisaab se koi fark nahi padega. agar do quom, ya do cast ke bich sexuality ka koi fark hota he to wo fark sunnat ka nahi he, wo fark unki alag alag mansik sthitiyo ka he, wo fark unki alag alag manasik banavat ka he.

[Conscíous]

feel sorry for yourself..

Why ??

allah has not sent you as his rasool to worry about us,,,

One does not have to be a prophet to care for humanity..

we can very well take care of ourselves and that of our children,,,

We can see that very well

[Conscíous]

I can't even Imagen, what kind of sadistic and painfully sex life the women of Abde-syedna cult have . No "Normal" female, in their right mind would see such undesirable men with the worst manners in there wildest fantasy or would want to get married too.

But the faith of the poor girls in the Abde-syedna cult, are sealed at a very young age ...,No sexually desire, no pleasure, no passion, no joy, no satisfaction

I'm sure they develop some kind of mental illness that they can't satisfies normal men. ... so they have no choice and get married with their pathetic looking cult men .

[guy_sam2005]

boom,
good post.strong words of fiction...and hatred ofcourse................