I find the position taken by the reformists having double standards. They accept Syedna Burhanuddin Saheb as their Dai. According to them he is to guide only in terms of religious aspects and not the worldly affairs. They accuse him of corruption and making religion a money business. Participants on this board have not spared words to ridicule him.
Now my question to the reformists (and the reformist participants on the board) is why do you accept the Sayedna as your leader, if in your opinion, he is corrupt and does not have the attributes of a Dai?
Question for the Reformists
Re: Question for the Reformists
My understanding is that reformists do not accept the current incumbent as the Dai. However, they do not have a problem with the office of the Dai.
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muminfirst
- Posts: 23
- Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Question for the Reformists
Bhai Akbar:
You are right. The Reformists are a confused lot. They have no sense as to where they are going and what will happen to them at the end. It is still time for them to leave behing thier "MUNAFIQ" ways and return to the fold. Aa Dai-Zamaan na Darwaza Khula che.
You are right. The Reformists are a confused lot. They have no sense as to where they are going and what will happen to them at the end. It is still time for them to leave behing thier "MUNAFIQ" ways and return to the fold. Aa Dai-Zamaan na Darwaza Khula che.
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jahrastafari
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:01 am
Re: Question for the Reformists
The reformist position is riddled with holes and incosistencies. Lacking a real position and not knowing what they stand for or what they want, they use this board to spin stories that consistently mask the truth. Their Jealousy at our faith, prosperity and oneness makes them bitter and twisted.
They should form their own PR company as with the number of spinnas in their ranks they would probably do quite well..What do you think guys go work for Tony or George W heh??
And when you do ask them to corroborate their statements/evidence and they can't - then all they can do is spit abuse.
See them for what they are...misguided fools who do nothing except snipe at us from the darkness. Thay have lost their way - most of them want to come back into the fold but their arrogance in admitting they are wrong prevents them from seeking forgiveness. Br Mumin first hit the nail on the head - the door is always open for you guys to come back.
They should form their own PR company as with the number of spinnas in their ranks they would probably do quite well..What do you think guys go work for Tony or George W heh??
And when you do ask them to corroborate their statements/evidence and they can't - then all they can do is spit abuse.
See them for what they are...misguided fools who do nothing except snipe at us from the darkness. Thay have lost their way - most of them want to come back into the fold but their arrogance in admitting they are wrong prevents them from seeking forgiveness. Br Mumin first hit the nail on the head - the door is always open for you guys to come back.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Nothing is more tiresome than to reinvent the wheel each time a callow, green around the gills "mumin" stumbles on to this board and wants to know why reformist do this and why reformist believe that.
If you're sincerely interested in understanding the reformist position, there's enough literature on this website and discussion on this board (for starters) to answer most of your basic questions - including the one that started this thread. Please make an effort, spend some time, read and try to understand what reformists are all about then perhaps we can have an informed discussion. That is if you are really interested.
If you're here to make mischief, call us names then you're wasting your time and obviously ours too.
What is said by reformists on this is board is as much representative of the official reformist position as what is said by you guys is representative of the official postion of your 'royal family'. Hope you can grasp this much. So don't jump to conclusions. And certainly don't jump up and down when you win a minor brownie point or two. Look at the big picture. It does not behoove well for slaves to celebrate their slavery. You are mental slaves to a system of plunder masquerading as religion. And you don't have to be particularly bright to figure it out.
As for the 'darwaza khula che' bit, it's like telling sheep 'you're welcome for slaughter'.
Sidenote: This board is a free public forum - free for everyone to say their piece including the likes of you who cannot claim anything remotely similar in your 'enlightened' circles. And that is the irony, of which you have no sense, as you come here armed with lanats and invective like latter-day martyrs abusing the very hospitality and freedom denied to you by your masters whom you so vociferously defend. Pathetic.
If you're sincerely interested in understanding the reformist position, there's enough literature on this website and discussion on this board (for starters) to answer most of your basic questions - including the one that started this thread. Please make an effort, spend some time, read and try to understand what reformists are all about then perhaps we can have an informed discussion. That is if you are really interested.
If you're here to make mischief, call us names then you're wasting your time and obviously ours too.
What is said by reformists on this is board is as much representative of the official reformist position as what is said by you guys is representative of the official postion of your 'royal family'. Hope you can grasp this much. So don't jump to conclusions. And certainly don't jump up and down when you win a minor brownie point or two. Look at the big picture. It does not behoove well for slaves to celebrate their slavery. You are mental slaves to a system of plunder masquerading as religion. And you don't have to be particularly bright to figure it out.
As for the 'darwaza khula che' bit, it's like telling sheep 'you're welcome for slaughter'.
Sidenote: This board is a free public forum - free for everyone to say their piece including the likes of you who cannot claim anything remotely similar in your 'enlightened' circles. And that is the irony, of which you have no sense, as you come here armed with lanats and invective like latter-day martyrs abusing the very hospitality and freedom denied to you by your masters whom you so vociferously defend. Pathetic.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar
The reason I put this question is that this has remain unanswered despite whatever has come up on this site.
I think instead of writing such a length reply you could perhaps have attempted to answer the question.
I have asked this question to a number of prominent reformists. Their reply is always that yes he is the Dai but we do not approve of his ways of doing things. I said fine then why not remove him. Well they say that we cannot. Why I asked ? Because the people of the community do not have the authority to remove him. That means that its an imperfect system, I said. People have to suffer becasue of one person and cannot even pass a no-confidence motion against him. Did not the Imam think of it when he was instituting this chain of Dai-ul Mutlaqs that such a situation can arise where the Dai turns out to be corrupt and affects the whole community ? Or was the Imam not capable of forseeing this ? After all he is infalliable in religious affairs ?
Naturally there is no answer to this from anyone and hence the purpose of this question.
The reason I put this question is that this has remain unanswered despite whatever has come up on this site.
I think instead of writing such a length reply you could perhaps have attempted to answer the question.
I have asked this question to a number of prominent reformists. Their reply is always that yes he is the Dai but we do not approve of his ways of doing things. I said fine then why not remove him. Well they say that we cannot. Why I asked ? Because the people of the community do not have the authority to remove him. That means that its an imperfect system, I said. People have to suffer becasue of one person and cannot even pass a no-confidence motion against him. Did not the Imam think of it when he was instituting this chain of Dai-ul Mutlaqs that such a situation can arise where the Dai turns out to be corrupt and affects the whole community ? Or was the Imam not capable of forseeing this ? After all he is infalliable in religious affairs ?
Naturally there is no answer to this from anyone and hence the purpose of this question.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Akbar,
This is exactly the dilemma the reformist can never answer because it is a double edge sword.
If they agree to the rights of the Dai...they cannot pass judgement against him.
If they disagree to the rights of the Dai...then they disown themselves of the Dawat.
This is exactly the dilemma the reformist can never answer because it is a double edge sword.
If they agree to the rights of the Dai...they cannot pass judgement against him.
If they disagree to the rights of the Dai...then they disown themselves of the Dawat.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Akbar,
Now you're talking...
My reply was addressed not just to you but to the others as well who jumped on to your question like hyenas and thought they could make a killing out of it....
Your second post makes clear what is on your mind. You could have said the same thing the first time around. There was no need to couch it in weasel words like "double standards" etc.
Anyways, back to your question: If the Dai is bad why can't we change him?
Of course, the reformists are dying to change him (pun intended) - and the corrupt system he has spawned.
But there are a few problems:
1) Reformist are in a minority, scattered and financially weak
2) Most Bohras are too spooked/brainwashed to support us openly
3) There is no mechanism (or tradition) in place to bring about such a change
Shouldn't have Imams foreseen this? Well, they should have. Were they infallible in religious matters? Yes, in theory. But these are idle questions, and pretty academic for our purpose here.
Forget removing the dai, let's begin small. How about people electing their local jamat members and executive committees? If people have control over their own jamaat's finances and properties they can cut down parasitic amils to size, stop being subservient to the kothar. And in no time the Dai will mend his ways. The dawat is here to serve the people. But the crafty clergy has turned the whole concept on its head.
Yes it's sad that people should suffer from the tyranny of one man and his system. The point is to resist this tyranny, challenge the perpetrators of such atrocities. Reformists are doing just that. Join us if you care. Support the reformist cause.
Now you're talking...
My reply was addressed not just to you but to the others as well who jumped on to your question like hyenas and thought they could make a killing out of it....
Your second post makes clear what is on your mind. You could have said the same thing the first time around. There was no need to couch it in weasel words like "double standards" etc.
Anyways, back to your question: If the Dai is bad why can't we change him?
Of course, the reformists are dying to change him (pun intended) - and the corrupt system he has spawned.
But there are a few problems:
1) Reformist are in a minority, scattered and financially weak
2) Most Bohras are too spooked/brainwashed to support us openly
3) There is no mechanism (or tradition) in place to bring about such a change
Shouldn't have Imams foreseen this? Well, they should have. Were they infallible in religious matters? Yes, in theory. But these are idle questions, and pretty academic for our purpose here.
Forget removing the dai, let's begin small. How about people electing their local jamat members and executive committees? If people have control over their own jamaat's finances and properties they can cut down parasitic amils to size, stop being subservient to the kothar. And in no time the Dai will mend his ways. The dawat is here to serve the people. But the crafty clergy has turned the whole concept on its head.
Yes it's sad that people should suffer from the tyranny of one man and his system. The point is to resist this tyranny, challenge the perpetrators of such atrocities. Reformists are doing just that. Join us if you care. Support the reformist cause.
Re: Question for the Reformists
It is instructive to compare Daawat with 17th and 18th century monarchical governments in France. The core concept in Daawat shares with the preposterous concept of the "Divine Right of Kings". The king could not be challenged by people, aristocracy or parliament because his power was sanctioned by God, and God alone could remove him.
But the French Revolution called the concept's bluff and had King Louis 16 quickly dispatched to the gallows. Briefly, when Napolean declared himself Emperor, it seemed the monarchy would prevail. But people had tasted "liberty, fraternity and equality" and monarchy in France went the way of the dodo. Good for France. People's faith in Christ and God survived.
Similar situation in England had Charles I and Oliver Cromwell pitted against each other. Charles I claimed God's authority to rule in whatever way he pleased and paid for that by being executed in front of the parliament. And, as we all know, monarchy was relegated to "tourist attraction". Monarch in England is "much loved" but has no real power.
Dai also rules by Divine Right. Only he can choose whether he wants the Daawat to go the French way to extinction or the British way of enlightened and benevolent mutual interest of the Daawat and its followers.
But the French Revolution called the concept's bluff and had King Louis 16 quickly dispatched to the gallows. Briefly, when Napolean declared himself Emperor, it seemed the monarchy would prevail. But people had tasted "liberty, fraternity and equality" and monarchy in France went the way of the dodo. Good for France. People's faith in Christ and God survived.
Similar situation in England had Charles I and Oliver Cromwell pitted against each other. Charles I claimed God's authority to rule in whatever way he pleased and paid for that by being executed in front of the parliament. And, as we all know, monarchy was relegated to "tourist attraction". Monarch in England is "much loved" but has no real power.
Dai also rules by Divine Right. Only he can choose whether he wants the Daawat to go the French way to extinction or the British way of enlightened and benevolent mutual interest of the Daawat and its followers.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Porus,
your reference in comparision has a flaw..the divine right of kings is not recorded in church doctrine before the kings created it. The divine right of the leader of the community is established from the Quran.
Your presupposition is that no other Dai, Imam or Prophet took on this role in this fashion...which is another flaw in your argument.
your reference in comparision has a flaw..the divine right of kings is not recorded in church doctrine before the kings created it. The divine right of the leader of the community is established from the Quran.
Your presupposition is that no other Dai, Imam or Prophet took on this role in this fashion...which is another flaw in your argument.
Re: Question for the Reformists
This is exactly the dilemma the reformist can never answer because it is a double edge sword.
If they agree to the rights of the Dai...they cannot pass judgement against him.
If they disagree to the rights of the Dai...then they disown themselves of the Dawat.
I do not profess to speak for the progressive movement as I am not a part of it. However, based on my readings, you are misrepresenting their dilemma
What if they agree to the rights of the Dai, but feel that he is corrupt and extorting more than his right allows ? What is the recourse if the fallible Dai is corrupt and engages in abuse of power ?
This is what the Dawat is not prepared to deal with and has no solution to. aka. a Dawat Dilemma.
If they agree to the rights of the Dai...they cannot pass judgement against him.
If they disagree to the rights of the Dai...then they disown themselves of the Dawat.
I do not profess to speak for the progressive movement as I am not a part of it. However, based on my readings, you are misrepresenting their dilemma
What if they agree to the rights of the Dai, but feel that he is corrupt and extorting more than his right allows ? What is the recourse if the fallible Dai is corrupt and engages in abuse of power ?
This is what the Dawat is not prepared to deal with and has no solution to. aka. a Dawat Dilemma.
Re: Question for the Reformists
It is a nice discussion, I have different position on reformist and Regular Bohras. Remember democracy cannot be imposed from outside it has to be from within. Examples are plentyful. Shah of Iran was thrown out by the people of Iran while trying to impose refrom by USA in Iraq is meeting stiff resistance. Same is true for our community. Instead of using foul language, we should be using our energy on bringing the points. I am sure this web site is read by people from Syedna's family and is being reported to the highest authority. If we can bring the valid points and instead of negative feedback, we should be focusing on positive criticisam, It is a long way but Gandhi did it, Martin Luther King as well as Nelson Mandela did it. The Dawat has been hijacked by greed and corruption but again it is now new for this community. It is occuring in Catholisims, Judaism as well Hindusim. Leaders of Organised religion have always used religion for their own purpsoses. I believe we should have a strong leader and he should be compensated for his services. Syedna is a scholar in Islamic studies and a good orator as well as a good manager( He is controlling a vast empire) but money breads corruption and he is not the only one Look at Imam Bukhari of Jama Masjid. There is always going to cronism but instead of using foul language. we should credit people for their work while giving positive criticism for the things we disagree. We can be civilized in our arguments. We can agree to disagree but it doesnot have to be uncivilized. Muslim Ummah is a very emotional and that's why other Non Muslim communities have taked advantage of us.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Both porus and Muddai are correct in their interpretation.
As far as reformists are concerned there is no dilemma, Qiyam. It is a paper tiger that you people have set up and shoot at it thinking you're shooting holes in reformist position.
Divine rights, infallibility are absurd concepts - designed to fool and exploit people. Leaders make mistakes - despite their divine rights - and should account for it.
Unfortunately, there are no guillotine in this day and age. But demigods and tyrants still abound.
As far as reformists are concerned there is no dilemma, Qiyam. It is a paper tiger that you people have set up and shoot at it thinking you're shooting holes in reformist position.
Divine rights, infallibility are absurd concepts - designed to fool and exploit people. Leaders make mistakes - despite their divine rights - and should account for it.
Unfortunately, there are no guillotine in this day and age. But demigods and tyrants still abound.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar,
the paper tiger is your understanding and knowledge of the Faith and its arkans.
Muddai stated "What if they agree to the rights of the Dai, but feel that he is corrupt and extorting more than his right allows ? What is the recourse if the fallible Dai is corrupt and engages in abuse of power?"
--Firstly no one has established this of the Dai. Be very aware of what are the rights of the Dai before passing judgement on if he has exceeding them! Certainly no one in the reform movement can compare in religious knowledge and ethos with the Dai.
You wrote: "Divine rights, infallibility are absurd concepts - designed to fool and exploit people"
--This, oddly enough, is the linch pin of the shiah faith. So where do you stand...or stand on. How can even claim to be a bohra (reform or not) and make such a statement...it goes against the entire mithaq.
Maybe before debating...should realize the traditions of the people your debating for and against.
the paper tiger is your understanding and knowledge of the Faith and its arkans.
Muddai stated "What if they agree to the rights of the Dai, but feel that he is corrupt and extorting more than his right allows ? What is the recourse if the fallible Dai is corrupt and engages in abuse of power?"
--Firstly no one has established this of the Dai. Be very aware of what are the rights of the Dai before passing judgement on if he has exceeding them! Certainly no one in the reform movement can compare in religious knowledge and ethos with the Dai.
You wrote: "Divine rights, infallibility are absurd concepts - designed to fool and exploit people"
--This, oddly enough, is the linch pin of the shiah faith. So where do you stand...or stand on. How can even claim to be a bohra (reform or not) and make such a statement...it goes against the entire mithaq.
Maybe before debating...should realize the traditions of the people your debating for and against.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Qiyam,
Faith is there to serve people. Not the other way round. You don't exploit, harm and hurt people to serve faith. This is what is happening in our community. Look how well-rounded human material is beaten into rigid, dogmatic, square holes of faith.
For all I care the Dai can claim to be God, so long as he's good, upright and serves the community. So long as he does what he is supposed to do. No hanky panky. But instead if he uses his 'divine' position to exploit and harm people I don't care a rat's tail what divine sanction we operates under. The linchpin of faith comes unhinged the moment his acts begin to cause grief and suffering for his people.
Surely I know of no one who can compare with the Dai in religious knowledge and ethos. I do not know either of anyone who has used such knowledge and ethos to make monkeys out his people.
Knowledge, faith, tenets, arkans have no meaning in and of themselves. They can only have meaning in the context of how they are used - for good or ill. And that is the linchpin of faith. Any faith.
Faith is there to serve people. Not the other way round. You don't exploit, harm and hurt people to serve faith. This is what is happening in our community. Look how well-rounded human material is beaten into rigid, dogmatic, square holes of faith.
For all I care the Dai can claim to be God, so long as he's good, upright and serves the community. So long as he does what he is supposed to do. No hanky panky. But instead if he uses his 'divine' position to exploit and harm people I don't care a rat's tail what divine sanction we operates under. The linchpin of faith comes unhinged the moment his acts begin to cause grief and suffering for his people.
Surely I know of no one who can compare with the Dai in religious knowledge and ethos. I do not know either of anyone who has used such knowledge and ethos to make monkeys out his people.
Knowledge, faith, tenets, arkans have no meaning in and of themselves. They can only have meaning in the context of how they are used - for good or ill. And that is the linchpin of faith. Any faith.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar,
"I do not know either of anyone who has used such knowledge and ethos to make monkeys out his people"
--In what ways are they monkeys...because they don't follow your precepts of how a person is suppose to follow their faith and leaders. Who are you to judge??? You and your like who worry more about paying Zakat and Khums. You guys are like the trash tablots of the community...creating stories with half the facts.
And it is your opinion that the bohras are dogmatic and rigid. To your like, a person who barely understands the basics of the faith, promoting how free things should be. One is not free until they understand what it means to be bonded to Allah's will, not your own.
"I do not know either of anyone who has used such knowledge and ethos to make monkeys out his people"
--In what ways are they monkeys...because they don't follow your precepts of how a person is suppose to follow their faith and leaders. Who are you to judge??? You and your like who worry more about paying Zakat and Khums. You guys are like the trash tablots of the community...creating stories with half the facts.
And it is your opinion that the bohras are dogmatic and rigid. To your like, a person who barely understands the basics of the faith, promoting how free things should be. One is not free until they understand what it means to be bonded to Allah's will, not your own.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Now you want facts, eh? Qiyam, Qiyam how can anyone make you see facts if you willfully, obstinately and consistently choose to ignore them.
Why do you think the reform movement exists? Do you think we are a bunch of disgruntled losers who have nothing better to do? Or is it because of pain and suffering we have experienced under Dai's misrule? Do you have any idea what happened in Udaipur? Do you know that the mumins of Udaipur were beaten in the presence of the Dai in Galiakot, and thereafter ignored for nearly 30 years? Can you find it in you to empathise with the people who were separated from their loved ones? Do you have any idea what insults and indignities ordinary bohras suffer when dealing with amils? Do you think the extortion of money is some kind of pathological collective illusion that we all suffer from? Do you seriously believe we've made up these things?
Come on, there must me some truth somewhere in it. Surely you're intelligent enough to understand that there can be no smoke without fire. Or do you believe we make so much noise because we're jealous of maula's shaan? ( If so then you're no different from the ridiculous Baby Bush who says people attack America because they are against its democracy and jealous of its wealth.)
Just pause for a moment and think, what have we to gain from this protest, this struggle? Do we want to take the Dai's position? No. Do we want to take over the community? No.
Is it not possible that we are looking for something more simple and basic: decency, fairplay, dignity. It may appear that we are obsessed with extortion of money - but this is one thing that hurts the most, and is done so blatantly that there not even a pretense of shame anymore. You may not realise this sitting as your are in North America surrounded by smugness and affluence. You may also not realise that quoting quran, verse and chapter, is of no use so long as people have no respect and dignity. All your faith ends being a charade and a sham.
Why do you think the reform movement exists? Do you think we are a bunch of disgruntled losers who have nothing better to do? Or is it because of pain and suffering we have experienced under Dai's misrule? Do you have any idea what happened in Udaipur? Do you know that the mumins of Udaipur were beaten in the presence of the Dai in Galiakot, and thereafter ignored for nearly 30 years? Can you find it in you to empathise with the people who were separated from their loved ones? Do you have any idea what insults and indignities ordinary bohras suffer when dealing with amils? Do you think the extortion of money is some kind of pathological collective illusion that we all suffer from? Do you seriously believe we've made up these things?
Come on, there must me some truth somewhere in it. Surely you're intelligent enough to understand that there can be no smoke without fire. Or do you believe we make so much noise because we're jealous of maula's shaan? ( If so then you're no different from the ridiculous Baby Bush who says people attack America because they are against its democracy and jealous of its wealth.)
Just pause for a moment and think, what have we to gain from this protest, this struggle? Do we want to take the Dai's position? No. Do we want to take over the community? No.
Is it not possible that we are looking for something more simple and basic: decency, fairplay, dignity. It may appear that we are obsessed with extortion of money - but this is one thing that hurts the most, and is done so blatantly that there not even a pretense of shame anymore. You may not realise this sitting as your are in North America surrounded by smugness and affluence. You may also not realise that quoting quran, verse and chapter, is of no use so long as people have no respect and dignity. All your faith ends being a charade and a sham.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar,
I'm sure there is some truth. The problem is it get lost with all the other rubbish that comes along with it.
When your ask to pay your part like sabil...it's slammed as exhortion and non-islamic...and the Dai is blamed directly. The problem is a jamat can not exist without contributions from the jamat.
It is staples like this that distort what your preaching. I don't deny many amils, shiekhs, and mullah did and do and will do stupid and bad things...they're human. And humans are weak. But to say this is promoted by the Dawat is completely wrong.
But because a few are...reformist say loudly that all are.
It is similar to the catholic church incidents. A few priests are named and prosecuted for illegal acts. Does that mean the entire establishment is? No. Did the Pope denounce the acts..yes...but he considered it a failure in the person and gave them another chance.
Didn't the Dai do the same in some cases. In others, the Dai removed the person to some remote place.
You write: "Do we want to take the Dai's position? No."
---Depends on what day it is. You want to decide who and how the Dai should be. You've stated a number of time that the Dai is corrupt. How are you to judge.
"Do we want to take over the community? No."
---No, your just set to debase it as much as you can. Do the words "monkeys" sound familiar. I'd be a monkey if I just listen to what you said as fact...when I know most of what you use to support your arguments isn't. That my problem!
"It may appear that we are obsessed with extortion of money - but this is one thing that hurts the most, and is done so blatantly that there not even a pretense of shame anymore. You may not realise this sitting as your are in North America surrounded by smugness and affluence. You may also not realise that quoting quran, verse and chapter, is of no use so long as people have no respect and dignity. All your faith ends being a charade and a sham."
--This is the worse statement you've made yet. Don't push that American affluence BS. I grew up in Africa...I lived in Gujarat and Mumbai...and have lived in Karachi. I know the poor and the rich. It's the same story from the same type of people. You said the word again...exhortion. Exhortion of what money...zakat and khums. How sad that sounds. These are the same people who will buy a whole new outfit for every big day on the calendar without a thought. The same women who have little trouble buying a new punjabi suit.
Or have little trouble going out every weekend for a movie. These are not the rich or affluent bohras...these are the normal low or middle class bohras (which are the vast majority of bohras). You know..the ones that hang outside the markez/masjid during a majalis; the guys talking in the back corner while people are listening to a riwayat.
The same people who have a hard time giving Rs.152 for the Ramadhan lagat...but didn't think twice about going to the local restaurant on pehli raat at Rs150 a person for dinner.
Don't get me wrong...its the same in the US..the same people...the same story.
There called hypocrites. They're cheap when it comes to supporting there jamat, deen, and iklaq. They call pillars like zakat and khums are taxes! What an awful statement. I live in a country where 33% my income goes to taxes...but I would never equal my income tax to zakat and khums. That's like saying my salat is exercise only!
I don't mean this for the truly poor...for if they are...they are not hit with this kind of burden.
You think bohras in America can do that...maybe 1% of them can....but than again those are the ones that don't worry about paying their due zakat and khums.
I'm sure there is some truth. The problem is it get lost with all the other rubbish that comes along with it.
When your ask to pay your part like sabil...it's slammed as exhortion and non-islamic...and the Dai is blamed directly. The problem is a jamat can not exist without contributions from the jamat.
It is staples like this that distort what your preaching. I don't deny many amils, shiekhs, and mullah did and do and will do stupid and bad things...they're human. And humans are weak. But to say this is promoted by the Dawat is completely wrong.
But because a few are...reformist say loudly that all are.
It is similar to the catholic church incidents. A few priests are named and prosecuted for illegal acts. Does that mean the entire establishment is? No. Did the Pope denounce the acts..yes...but he considered it a failure in the person and gave them another chance.
Didn't the Dai do the same in some cases. In others, the Dai removed the person to some remote place.
You write: "Do we want to take the Dai's position? No."
---Depends on what day it is. You want to decide who and how the Dai should be. You've stated a number of time that the Dai is corrupt. How are you to judge.
"Do we want to take over the community? No."
---No, your just set to debase it as much as you can. Do the words "monkeys" sound familiar. I'd be a monkey if I just listen to what you said as fact...when I know most of what you use to support your arguments isn't. That my problem!
"It may appear that we are obsessed with extortion of money - but this is one thing that hurts the most, and is done so blatantly that there not even a pretense of shame anymore. You may not realise this sitting as your are in North America surrounded by smugness and affluence. You may also not realise that quoting quran, verse and chapter, is of no use so long as people have no respect and dignity. All your faith ends being a charade and a sham."
--This is the worse statement you've made yet. Don't push that American affluence BS. I grew up in Africa...I lived in Gujarat and Mumbai...and have lived in Karachi. I know the poor and the rich. It's the same story from the same type of people. You said the word again...exhortion. Exhortion of what money...zakat and khums. How sad that sounds. These are the same people who will buy a whole new outfit for every big day on the calendar without a thought. The same women who have little trouble buying a new punjabi suit.
Or have little trouble going out every weekend for a movie. These are not the rich or affluent bohras...these are the normal low or middle class bohras (which are the vast majority of bohras). You know..the ones that hang outside the markez/masjid during a majalis; the guys talking in the back corner while people are listening to a riwayat.
The same people who have a hard time giving Rs.152 for the Ramadhan lagat...but didn't think twice about going to the local restaurant on pehli raat at Rs150 a person for dinner.
Don't get me wrong...its the same in the US..the same people...the same story.
There called hypocrites. They're cheap when it comes to supporting there jamat, deen, and iklaq. They call pillars like zakat and khums are taxes! What an awful statement. I live in a country where 33% my income goes to taxes...but I would never equal my income tax to zakat and khums. That's like saying my salat is exercise only!
I don't mean this for the truly poor...for if they are...they are not hit with this kind of burden.
You think bohras in America can do that...maybe 1% of them can....but than again those are the ones that don't worry about paying their due zakat and khums.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Please don't trivialise the reformist cause. The problem is not minor infractions here and a few excesses there. The problem is the systemic and systematic greed of the clergy - right from top to bottom. The problem is the financial and spiritual rip-off of the community in the name of religion.
The question is not that there are no facts. Facts are not only well documented but also experienced daily by bohras at the wrong end of the stick. (To point out just one fact: Sayedna saheb met Modi and gave him a donation of 1 crore rupees - as if rewarding him for the massacre of bohras and muslims. Why? Where did this money come from? )
The thing is that you can bring a horse to the water but there is no way in hell you can make it drink the water. That is your problem and the others like you. You don't want to know, you don't want to understand - because to admit these facts is suicidal for you, because it will shake the foundation on which the corrupt, rotten structure is built.
Every system of power and privilege is based on injustice and corruption. And the Kothar is no exception. It need people like you defend it. Which is bad enough. What is worse is that you should do so in the name of faith, religion and God.
No wonder, for the followers religion is no more than endless rituals, deedar of shafiq bawa with folded hands, bent backs, empty pockets and crushed dignity. The flock has a strong sense of identity, no doubt. Monkeys too claim a similar identity that comes from belonging to a group - where members behave and think like, what else, monkeys. (With apologies to our innocent primates.)
The question is not that there are no facts. Facts are not only well documented but also experienced daily by bohras at the wrong end of the stick. (To point out just one fact: Sayedna saheb met Modi and gave him a donation of 1 crore rupees - as if rewarding him for the massacre of bohras and muslims. Why? Where did this money come from? )
The thing is that you can bring a horse to the water but there is no way in hell you can make it drink the water. That is your problem and the others like you. You don't want to know, you don't want to understand - because to admit these facts is suicidal for you, because it will shake the foundation on which the corrupt, rotten structure is built.
Every system of power and privilege is based on injustice and corruption. And the Kothar is no exception. It need people like you defend it. Which is bad enough. What is worse is that you should do so in the name of faith, religion and God.
No wonder, for the followers religion is no more than endless rituals, deedar of shafiq bawa with folded hands, bent backs, empty pockets and crushed dignity. The flock has a strong sense of identity, no doubt. Monkeys too claim a similar identity that comes from belonging to a group - where members behave and think like, what else, monkeys. (With apologies to our innocent primates.)
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar,
I have not trivilized the reformist cause, you and your kind have.
"To point out just one fact: Sayedna saheb met Modi and gave him a donation of 1 crore rupees"
--What source did you get that from? Is it the same source that claimed mithaq didn't exist before Marhum Sayedna? Was it the same source that continues to claim that Marhum Sayedna said he was God in court...when no court records show this?
You see your approach is to debase the Dai and the community...firstly by falsifying historic evidence to back you and then secondly, not using a sincere method in showing your greviance. You will first say it is a LIE, then non-islamic, then misinterepted, then leave lay..and start the cycle again.
By this method..you have no crediablity.
Your argument:
"Why do you think the reform movement exists? Do you think we are a bunch of disgruntled losers who have nothing better to do? Or is it because of pain and suffering we have experienced under Dai's misrule?"
--I do know the causes of the reform movement. I have members of my own family who are part of the movement. So I personally know what their problems were. The thing I keep iterating is that their reasoning is wrong. They have no bases for their argument...only that they don't want to do it. They want to be part of the community...without living the life of the community. Respecting and listening to our Dai as the representative of the Imam is pillar #1 (walaya), whether you understand the reasoning or not. Barat, zakat, salat, etc are part and parcel of Islam and its tenet...that are testified in the mithaq. If it doesn't suit you...don't take the mithaq. Don't be a part of a community who's principle and belief YOU don't accept. It is hypocritcal and insulting to bohras.
"Do you have any idea what happened in Udaipur? Do you know that the mumins of Udaipur were beaten in the presence of the Dai in Galiakot, and thereafter ignored for nearly 30 years?"
--Do YOU know what the mumin of Udaipur did to the Dai? Do YOU know why half the jamats in Udaipur came back to the community...un-questioned!
"Can you find it in you to empathise with the people who were separated from their loved ones?
---not when they disgrace what I believe. The followers of the Prophet would kill if the Prophet was disgrace. Have empathy for the beliefs of other before asking for empathy of your own.
"Do you have any idea what insults and indignities ordinary bohras suffer when dealing with amils? Do you think the extortion of money is some kind of pathological collective illusion that we all suffer from? Do you seriously believe we've made up these things?"
---I do believe this happens...I will never say it is the norm or even a large miniority. They are incidents that should be corrected thru the proper means.
I have not trivilized the reformist cause, you and your kind have.
"To point out just one fact: Sayedna saheb met Modi and gave him a donation of 1 crore rupees"
--What source did you get that from? Is it the same source that claimed mithaq didn't exist before Marhum Sayedna? Was it the same source that continues to claim that Marhum Sayedna said he was God in court...when no court records show this?
You see your approach is to debase the Dai and the community...firstly by falsifying historic evidence to back you and then secondly, not using a sincere method in showing your greviance. You will first say it is a LIE, then non-islamic, then misinterepted, then leave lay..and start the cycle again.
By this method..you have no crediablity.
Your argument:
"Why do you think the reform movement exists? Do you think we are a bunch of disgruntled losers who have nothing better to do? Or is it because of pain and suffering we have experienced under Dai's misrule?"
--I do know the causes of the reform movement. I have members of my own family who are part of the movement. So I personally know what their problems were. The thing I keep iterating is that their reasoning is wrong. They have no bases for their argument...only that they don't want to do it. They want to be part of the community...without living the life of the community. Respecting and listening to our Dai as the representative of the Imam is pillar #1 (walaya), whether you understand the reasoning or not. Barat, zakat, salat, etc are part and parcel of Islam and its tenet...that are testified in the mithaq. If it doesn't suit you...don't take the mithaq. Don't be a part of a community who's principle and belief YOU don't accept. It is hypocritcal and insulting to bohras.
"Do you have any idea what happened in Udaipur? Do you know that the mumins of Udaipur were beaten in the presence of the Dai in Galiakot, and thereafter ignored for nearly 30 years?"
--Do YOU know what the mumin of Udaipur did to the Dai? Do YOU know why half the jamats in Udaipur came back to the community...un-questioned!
"Can you find it in you to empathise with the people who were separated from their loved ones?
---not when they disgrace what I believe. The followers of the Prophet would kill if the Prophet was disgrace. Have empathy for the beliefs of other before asking for empathy of your own.
"Do you have any idea what insults and indignities ordinary bohras suffer when dealing with amils? Do you think the extortion of money is some kind of pathological collective illusion that we all suffer from? Do you seriously believe we've made up these things?"
---I do believe this happens...I will never say it is the norm or even a large miniority. They are incidents that should be corrected thru the proper means.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Why would Modi care to meet Sayedna? "hey mullaji, I happened to be passing by so thought just drop in and check out how my old pal is doing," this is what you expect Modi to say? When a rabid politician meets a controversial religious head, they are having more than tea and scones. There is a definite quid pro quo taking place - you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. It is open secret that large donations are made/promised during such meetings. You won't find it documented because it is illicit, not something one would want to crow about.Originally posted by qiyam:
"To point out just one fact: Sayedna saheb met Modi and gave him a donation of 1 crore rupees"
--What source did you get that from? Is it the same source that claimed mithaq didn't exist before Marhum Sayedna? Was it the same source that continues to claim that Marhum Sayedna said he was God in court...when no court records show this?
You have to be incredibly naive to not to believe that no donation was made to Modi. For argument's sake, let's say no money changed hands. But do you accept that Sayedna and Modi met. Why? To chat like two long lost friends?
Living the part of the community is allowing yourself to be plundered. No sir, obeying the Dai is one thing. Obeying his excesses is unconscionable - only weak, desperate or ignorant people will do that.--I do know the causes of the reform movement. I have members of my own family who are part of the movement. So I personally know what their problems were. The thing I keep iterating is that their reasoning is wrong. They have no bases for their argument...only that they don't want to do it. They want to be part of the community...without living the life of the community. Respecting and listening to our Dai as the representative of the Imam is pillar #1 (walaya), whether you understand the reasoning or not. Barat, zakat, salat, etc are part and parcel of Islam and its tenet...that are testified in the mithaq. If it doesn't suit you...don't take the mithaq. Don't be a part of a community who's principle and belief YOU don't accept. It is hypocritcal and insulting to bohras.
What did we do to the Dai exactly? Stood up for municipal election without his blessings? Is that a blasphemy? How does it violate our faith? The Dai has no business in the secular affaris of the community. He is our spiritual leader and should conduct himself as such.--Do YOU know what the mumin of Udaipur did to the Dai? Do YOU know why half the jamats in Udaipur came back to the community...un-questioned!
Again, for argument's sake, let's admit that we made a mistake? What would one expect from the shafiq bawa? Have his goons beat the hell out of us - in his presence. What kind of leader, rhanuma, pious person would do that sort of thing?
Prophet followers would kill (but without his approval). The dai is no prophet. That his(dai's) followers would kill and use violence is not surprising. The only other groups that employ such tactics are politicians and criminal gangs."Can you find it in you to empathise with the people who were separated from their loved ones?
---not when they disgrace what I believe. The followers of the Prophet would kill if the Prophet was disgrace. Have empathy for the beliefs of other before asking for empathy of your own.
'Proper means' - that is such a bureaucratic term. It almost means nothing. What is the 'proper means' for people who are beaten in front of their Dai (in galiakot)? Yet, despite the violence and humiliation, people went to Rampura to meet the dai, to clear the air. Guess what, the sultan of 'proper means' refused to meet them."Do you have any idea what insults and indignities ordinary bohras suffer when dealing with amils? Do you think the extortion of money is some kind of pathological collective illusion that we all suffer from? Do you seriously believe we've made up these things?"
---I do believe this happens...I will never say it is the norm or even a large miniority. They are incidents that should be corrected thru the proper means.
For Dai's other egregious acts you may want to see a detialed but partial list prepared by S. Insaf: (<a href="http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 1;t=000993# 000005</a>). Not that it would make any diffrence given your state of denial. But you never know...
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar,
I noticed you left out the part about ACTUALLY KNOWING and quoting a source of info. for the 1 crore rupees. I know it is the habit of the reformists.
"But do you accept that Sayedna and Modi met."
--the only info I have is that there was to be a meeting. I have yet to read from any source that it happened and what happened.
"Living the part of the community is allowing yourself to be plundered. No sir, obeying the Dai is one thing. Obeying his excesses is unconscionable - only weak, desperate or ignorant people will do that."
--Again, based on what. If the entire community was being plundered...why is the majority of all bohras still with the community. Secondly, YOU say it is being plundered..based on what! And what are his excesses...oh yeah, the expensive white kurta/siya, those sandals, that topi. For God's sake...Sayedna isn't even overweight!
"What did we do to the Dai exactly? Stood up for municipal election without his blessings? Is that a blasphemy? How does it violate our faith? The Dai has no business in the secular affaris of the community. He is our spiritual leader and should conduct himself as such."
--When exactly did Islam separate into secular and spirtual. The Prophet and Imams selected the administrators of the area...not the people who lived in the areas. The bohras were majorities in those areas. Those bohras DID defy an edict of the Dai. And that is blasphemy.
"Again, for argument's sake, let's admit that we made a mistake? What would one expect from the shafiq bawa? Have his goons beat the hell out of us - in his presence. What kind of leader, rhanuma, pious person would do that sort of thing? "
--Oh a mistake...and did those bohras ask for forgiveness for disobeying...do they even do that today. They broke their mithaq. What kind of leader is the Dai...how many to time did the Dai come to Udaipur to ask for the bohras to come back and take their mithaq again? How many more times did the Dai ask from other places for the Udaipuri bohras to come back?
"Prophet followers would kill (but without his approval). The dai is no prophet. That his(dai's) followers would kill and use violence is not surprising. The only other groups that employ such tactics are politicians and criminal gangs."
--So when the Prophet did approve...were the followers still considered gangs? When they attacked on those that publically disobeyed a command of the Prophet...are they gangs? You again forget...the Dai al'Mutlaq is acting in the position of the Imam. The Imam has the same rank in obediance as the Prophet did.
"What is the 'proper means' for people who are beaten in front of their Dai (in galiakot)? Yet, despite the violence and humiliation, people went to Rampura to meet the dai, to clear the air. Guess what, the sultan of 'proper means' refused to meet them."
--you write as though those poor Udaipuri bohras did nothing. You make their case so sweet and kind. Reality is quite different isn't it.
I noticed you left out the part about ACTUALLY KNOWING and quoting a source of info. for the 1 crore rupees. I know it is the habit of the reformists.
"But do you accept that Sayedna and Modi met."
--the only info I have is that there was to be a meeting. I have yet to read from any source that it happened and what happened.
"Living the part of the community is allowing yourself to be plundered. No sir, obeying the Dai is one thing. Obeying his excesses is unconscionable - only weak, desperate or ignorant people will do that."
--Again, based on what. If the entire community was being plundered...why is the majority of all bohras still with the community. Secondly, YOU say it is being plundered..based on what! And what are his excesses...oh yeah, the expensive white kurta/siya, those sandals, that topi. For God's sake...Sayedna isn't even overweight!
"What did we do to the Dai exactly? Stood up for municipal election without his blessings? Is that a blasphemy? How does it violate our faith? The Dai has no business in the secular affaris of the community. He is our spiritual leader and should conduct himself as such."
--When exactly did Islam separate into secular and spirtual. The Prophet and Imams selected the administrators of the area...not the people who lived in the areas. The bohras were majorities in those areas. Those bohras DID defy an edict of the Dai. And that is blasphemy.
"Again, for argument's sake, let's admit that we made a mistake? What would one expect from the shafiq bawa? Have his goons beat the hell out of us - in his presence. What kind of leader, rhanuma, pious person would do that sort of thing? "
--Oh a mistake...and did those bohras ask for forgiveness for disobeying...do they even do that today. They broke their mithaq. What kind of leader is the Dai...how many to time did the Dai come to Udaipur to ask for the bohras to come back and take their mithaq again? How many more times did the Dai ask from other places for the Udaipuri bohras to come back?
"Prophet followers would kill (but without his approval). The dai is no prophet. That his(dai's) followers would kill and use violence is not surprising. The only other groups that employ such tactics are politicians and criminal gangs."
--So when the Prophet did approve...were the followers still considered gangs? When they attacked on those that publically disobeyed a command of the Prophet...are they gangs? You again forget...the Dai al'Mutlaq is acting in the position of the Imam. The Imam has the same rank in obediance as the Prophet did.
"What is the 'proper means' for people who are beaten in front of their Dai (in galiakot)? Yet, despite the violence and humiliation, people went to Rampura to meet the dai, to clear the air. Guess what, the sultan of 'proper means' refused to meet them."
--you write as though those poor Udaipuri bohras did nothing. You make their case so sweet and kind. Reality is quite different isn't it.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Sayedna saheb has made donations to political parties over the decades. Bohras in India know this as instinctively as they know that they have to put their hand in their pockets as soon as they see a mulla saab.
When you bribe politicians you don't leave hard evidence behind. There is no proof as there is no proof of millions that are salted away by Sayedna saheb by way of salaams, 'gifts' and what not.
Thank god you know at least this much that Sayedna and Modi met. Why? You don't know, don't want to know. Why spoil the coziness of our little ivory tower with harsh reality??
--------------------
You don't know how the community is being plundered. Such innocence. As I said above, millions are being taken away from the people. What happens to that money? How it is spent? Why the 'royal family' wants to own community property all around the world? What happens to the millions taken from the gullas of various mazars? How come the poor, simple dais of three fours generations ago came to so filthy rich, with sprawling mansions, expensive education, flashy lifestyles and a ever growing, incestuous 'royal family'?
The money comes from the corporation called Dawoodi Bohras Inc.
And excesses come in the shape of ex-communication, public humiliation, violence, intolerance, forcing people to quit bank jobs, dicating people how to vote, telling people where and how to shit, forbidding people to read certain newspapers/books, making people wear ridiculous clothes, in general making monkeys out of decent human beings.
-------------------
India is not an Islamic country. Here the secular and the spiritual are separate. Sayedna's edict is not law. People are granted the freedom of conscience by the constitution and have the right to exercise their free will. It is immoral and perhaps even illegal for the Sayedna to dictate who should run for an election and whom people should vote for. This was just a local municipal election for god's sake. What had the sultan of bohras to gain or lose by throwing his weight around? This was/is none of his business. And to hell with his edict, mitahaq and divine rights - if he and his chamchas thought/think we can take this crap like slobbering slaves.
--------------------
If the Dai had vision, compassion and humanity he would have forgiven the 'offending' bohras in Udaipur. This is what you expect from a leader, father of the community, bawa shafiq. A mark of a father is the generosity of spirit that he shows towards his children.
To err is human, to forgive divine. Perhaps, the dai is not all that divine to do that. Instead of forgivness/reconciliation, he and his chamchas turned vicious and vindictive. They wanted to humiliate us, and unleashed goons on us like rabid dogs.
No, Sayedna never came to Udaipur for nearly thirty years. And never made any attempt to bring his 'estranged flock' back.
---------------------
The prophet never approved of gratuitous violence. He waged wars when he had to, when he ran out of all other peaceful alternatives. Only a petty potentate would have his own people beaten up for petty reasons. As I said, the dai is no prophet.
--------------------
The case of Udaipur bohras is not 'sweet and kind'. But at least the Dai could have shown some sweetness and kindness he's overflowing with.
--------------------
I know exactly how you will respond. And I can understand that. Your job is to defend your corrupt and illegitimate masters. You come here not to learn, understand, accept. You come here to refute, reject, twist facts, ignore glaring reality, confuse matters.
So far you're doing a good job. Mugambo khush hua!
When you bribe politicians you don't leave hard evidence behind. There is no proof as there is no proof of millions that are salted away by Sayedna saheb by way of salaams, 'gifts' and what not.
Thank god you know at least this much that Sayedna and Modi met. Why? You don't know, don't want to know. Why spoil the coziness of our little ivory tower with harsh reality??
--------------------
You don't know how the community is being plundered. Such innocence. As I said above, millions are being taken away from the people. What happens to that money? How it is spent? Why the 'royal family' wants to own community property all around the world? What happens to the millions taken from the gullas of various mazars? How come the poor, simple dais of three fours generations ago came to so filthy rich, with sprawling mansions, expensive education, flashy lifestyles and a ever growing, incestuous 'royal family'?
The money comes from the corporation called Dawoodi Bohras Inc.
And excesses come in the shape of ex-communication, public humiliation, violence, intolerance, forcing people to quit bank jobs, dicating people how to vote, telling people where and how to shit, forbidding people to read certain newspapers/books, making people wear ridiculous clothes, in general making monkeys out of decent human beings.
-------------------
India is not an Islamic country. Here the secular and the spiritual are separate. Sayedna's edict is not law. People are granted the freedom of conscience by the constitution and have the right to exercise their free will. It is immoral and perhaps even illegal for the Sayedna to dictate who should run for an election and whom people should vote for. This was just a local municipal election for god's sake. What had the sultan of bohras to gain or lose by throwing his weight around? This was/is none of his business. And to hell with his edict, mitahaq and divine rights - if he and his chamchas thought/think we can take this crap like slobbering slaves.
--------------------
If the Dai had vision, compassion and humanity he would have forgiven the 'offending' bohras in Udaipur. This is what you expect from a leader, father of the community, bawa shafiq. A mark of a father is the generosity of spirit that he shows towards his children.
To err is human, to forgive divine. Perhaps, the dai is not all that divine to do that. Instead of forgivness/reconciliation, he and his chamchas turned vicious and vindictive. They wanted to humiliate us, and unleashed goons on us like rabid dogs.
No, Sayedna never came to Udaipur for nearly thirty years. And never made any attempt to bring his 'estranged flock' back.
---------------------
The prophet never approved of gratuitous violence. He waged wars when he had to, when he ran out of all other peaceful alternatives. Only a petty potentate would have his own people beaten up for petty reasons. As I said, the dai is no prophet.
--------------------
The case of Udaipur bohras is not 'sweet and kind'. But at least the Dai could have shown some sweetness and kindness he's overflowing with.
--------------------
I know exactly how you will respond. And I can understand that. Your job is to defend your corrupt and illegitimate masters. You come here not to learn, understand, accept. You come here to refute, reject, twist facts, ignore glaring reality, confuse matters.
So far you're doing a good job. Mugambo khush hua!
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar,
As usual you promote what you want Islam to be versus what Allah requires it to be.
"When you bribe politicians.."
--Nice quote..got proof. Of course not..bringing proof for statements made isn't the reformist forte.
"Thank god you know at least this much that Sayedna and Modi met."
--I did not say I knew they MET...I said I knew they were planning on meeting. That is all I know..because I have no evidence of anything else.
NOW, maybe you can elighten us to source how or when Sayedna gave Modi 1 crore rupee?
"..millions are being taken away from the people."
--Of course you fail to mention the classification of the money...you know zakat and khums.
"How come the poor, simple dais of three fours generations ago came to so filthy rich, with sprawling mansions, expensive education, flashy lifestyles and a ever growing, incestuous 'royal family'?"
--What happened to Sayednas Idris, Hatim, Qutubshah, etc...who were kings of there areas. How about the Imams of Salmiyah and Cairo...who were caliphas. They all lived in palaces and were rich. How about previous Prophets like Dawood and Sulayman...they were kings?
Maybe you should get off your high horse and realize Allah doesn't forbid someone from being rich or well off. It's YOUR problem...get over it.
"India is not an Islamic country."
--this is the typical answer of a munafiq. Well, I don't leave in an islamic government...so I don't have to follow Islamic shariah. So why were Imam's still collecting zakat and khums...why were they still directing the mumineen. Because we as a community are the body of the government and the Leader (be he the Imam or his Dai) leads us.
"If the Dai had vision, compassion and humanity he would have forgiven the 'offending' bohras in Udaipur."
--He did..several times..and they spat on his rights as the Dai. Half the jamats finally came to their senses. When will you?
"You come here to refute, reject, twist facts, ignore glaring reality, confuse matters."
--I came here to refute, state facts, state reality, and straighten matters..that people like you create. You present a history that doesn't exist or is distorted, present islamic roles that go against Islam (islam is not a democracy), and quote things that are false representation or never happened!
As usual you promote what you want Islam to be versus what Allah requires it to be.
"When you bribe politicians.."
--Nice quote..got proof. Of course not..bringing proof for statements made isn't the reformist forte.
"Thank god you know at least this much that Sayedna and Modi met."
--I did not say I knew they MET...I said I knew they were planning on meeting. That is all I know..because I have no evidence of anything else.
NOW, maybe you can elighten us to source how or when Sayedna gave Modi 1 crore rupee?
"..millions are being taken away from the people."
--Of course you fail to mention the classification of the money...you know zakat and khums.
"How come the poor, simple dais of three fours generations ago came to so filthy rich, with sprawling mansions, expensive education, flashy lifestyles and a ever growing, incestuous 'royal family'?"
--What happened to Sayednas Idris, Hatim, Qutubshah, etc...who were kings of there areas. How about the Imams of Salmiyah and Cairo...who were caliphas. They all lived in palaces and were rich. How about previous Prophets like Dawood and Sulayman...they were kings?
Maybe you should get off your high horse and realize Allah doesn't forbid someone from being rich or well off. It's YOUR problem...get over it.
"India is not an Islamic country."
--this is the typical answer of a munafiq. Well, I don't leave in an islamic government...so I don't have to follow Islamic shariah. So why were Imam's still collecting zakat and khums...why were they still directing the mumineen. Because we as a community are the body of the government and the Leader (be he the Imam or his Dai) leads us.
"If the Dai had vision, compassion and humanity he would have forgiven the 'offending' bohras in Udaipur."
--He did..several times..and they spat on his rights as the Dai. Half the jamats finally came to their senses. When will you?
"You come here to refute, reject, twist facts, ignore glaring reality, confuse matters."
--I came here to refute, state facts, state reality, and straighten matters..that people like you create. You present a history that doesn't exist or is distorted, present islamic roles that go against Islam (islam is not a democracy), and quote things that are false representation or never happened!
Re: Question for the Reformists
forcing people to quit bank jobs - it is against the Prophet's sharia to give interest, take interest or record an interest transactionAnd excesses come in the shape of ex-communication, public humiliation, violence, intolerance, forcing people to quit bank jobs, dicating people how to vote, telling people where and how to shit , forbidding people to read certain newspapers/books, making people wear ridiculous clothes, in general making monkeys out of decent human beings
telling people where and how to shit - remember the baitul khala ni 12 adab - that was taught by the Prophet and the Syedna emphasizes that.
making people wear ridiculous clothes - once again - re-enforcing the sharia
in general making monkeys out of decent human beings - I would say making decent human beings out of monkeys
Re: Question for the Reformists
Oh..? I wasnt aware Prophet wore Kurta, Ijar and topi?Originally posted by simon:
making people wear ridiculous clothes - once again - re-enforcing the sharia[/QB]
Which kind of sharia is this?
Re: Question for the Reformists
Jinx,
There is much in the Islamic shariah you are not aware of...maybe if you asked first...you'd learn from others on this board.
There is much in the Islamic shariah you are not aware of...maybe if you asked first...you'd learn from others on this board.
Re: Question for the Reformists
Fazl ibn Abbas (ra):
"The Holy Prophet (saas) said: 'Adopt white clothes; it is the best attire.'"
Umm Salama (ra) reports that:
"The Holy Prophet (saas) liked kurta (long shirt) most."
Ubayd bin Khaalid (ra) reports that:
"I was once going to Madina. I heard a person from behind me say: 'Wear your lungi (loose dress) higher because it avoids physical and spiritual impurities.' (The lungi will remain cleaner and will not become dirty by being dragged on the ground.) When I turned to see who was talking I saw that it was Rasulullah (saas)."
Abu Sa'eed al-Khuddari relates the Messenger of Allaah said, "The izar (lower garment) of a Muslim is to the middle of the shin and there is no sin if it comes halfway between that and his ankles, but what comes lower than the ankles is in the Hell-Fire. On the Day of Resurrection Allaah will not look at a man who drags his izar out of arrogance
"The Holy Prophet (saas) said: 'Adopt white clothes; it is the best attire.'"
Umm Salama (ra) reports that:
"The Holy Prophet (saas) liked kurta (long shirt) most."
Ubayd bin Khaalid (ra) reports that:
"I was once going to Madina. I heard a person from behind me say: 'Wear your lungi (loose dress) higher because it avoids physical and spiritual impurities.' (The lungi will remain cleaner and will not become dirty by being dragged on the ground.) When I turned to see who was talking I saw that it was Rasulullah (saas)."
Abu Sa'eed al-Khuddari relates the Messenger of Allaah said, "The izar (lower garment) of a Muslim is to the middle of the shin and there is no sin if it comes halfway between that and his ankles, but what comes lower than the ankles is in the Hell-Fire. On the Day of Resurrection Allaah will not look at a man who drags his izar out of arrogance
Re: Question for the Reformists
Qiyam, man you're the limit. (Sorry I could not respond sooner. Some of us unfortunately have to work for a living.) So now, you're not sure whether Sayedna and Modi even met. Tell you what. They did not. Actually, Modi does not even exist. He is a figment of our imagination. We only dreamed of him and Sayedna meeting, playing footsie. Nothing more. No hanky panky. Even if we show you a photo of them meeting, don't believe it. It is manufactured out of our dream. Dream to printer to newspaper. See where technology is taking us!!
As for classifying the money: I didn't know the millions collected at ziyafats (this is just one example) can be classified as zakat, khums. Very innovative. (I don't have to say much about this here. My fellow travellers are keep you quite busy on other threads on this subject, namely "dawat-e-hadiya", "Tax evasion of kothar" etc.)
If Sayedna collects only legitimate money (zakat, khums etc.) and no other money then it stands to reason that all this should go to the poor, needy, orphans, widows, community welfare. Technically Sayedna should be of average means. Obviously he is not, this means he has other sources of income - illegitimate and accountable.
Yes, Allah doesn't forbid anyone from becoming rich. But Allah care how a person comes into riches, how his money is spent. Allah doesn't like ostentation. Allah loves humility and simplicity. Allah hates arrogance of the rich, of the self-appointed sultans, especially if they have become rich by dishonest means.
No matter how you cut and slice the shariah, it gives no authority to Sayedna to tell people how to vote in an election of a secular country.
Simon, thank you for chipping in. How come shariah is invoked when it applies to people - wear this, shit this way, wash that way. How come the shariah and quranic tenets are forgotten when it comes to the obligations of leaders - be just, humble and fair, remember your duty towards the community, towards the poor and destitute, do not hoard money, spend it in the way of Allah...
As for classifying the money: I didn't know the millions collected at ziyafats (this is just one example) can be classified as zakat, khums. Very innovative. (I don't have to say much about this here. My fellow travellers are keep you quite busy on other threads on this subject, namely "dawat-e-hadiya", "Tax evasion of kothar" etc.)
If Sayedna collects only legitimate money (zakat, khums etc.) and no other money then it stands to reason that all this should go to the poor, needy, orphans, widows, community welfare. Technically Sayedna should be of average means. Obviously he is not, this means he has other sources of income - illegitimate and accountable.
Yes, Allah doesn't forbid anyone from becoming rich. But Allah care how a person comes into riches, how his money is spent. Allah doesn't like ostentation. Allah loves humility and simplicity. Allah hates arrogance of the rich, of the self-appointed sultans, especially if they have become rich by dishonest means.
No matter how you cut and slice the shariah, it gives no authority to Sayedna to tell people how to vote in an election of a secular country.
Simon, thank you for chipping in. How come shariah is invoked when it applies to people - wear this, shit this way, wash that way. How come the shariah and quranic tenets are forgotten when it comes to the obligations of leaders - be just, humble and fair, remember your duty towards the community, towards the poor and destitute, do not hoard money, spend it in the way of Allah...
Re: Question for the Reformists
Humsafar,
"So now, you're not sure whether Sayedna and Modi even met."
--Firstly, quote what you know...actual info. Not what you think happen...you know the 1 crore rupees? Where's that? I don't have any info beyond "they were going to meet". So I don't hypothesis further than that.
"I didn't know the millions collected at ziyafats (this is just one example) can be classified as zakat, khums."
-Didn't say this.
"If Sayedna collects only legitimate money (zakat, khums etc.) and no other money then it stands to reason that all this should go to the poor, needy, orphans, widows, community welfare.
--Based on what says all the money Sayedna collects should ALL go to the community. The Quran doesn't say this...nor did the Prophet. Were the Imams and other Dais not living in palaces?
"Technically Sayedna should be of average means."
--Again bases on what? Quran says to be humble...not keep average means.
"Obviously he is not, this means he has other sources of income - illegitimate and accountable."
--Again based on what are his sources of income illegitimate? Accountable to who and based on what does he need to be accountable to you?
"But Allah care how a person comes into riches, how his money is spent."
--And what authority were you given to judge this?
"especially if they have become rich by dishonest means."
--Again, based on what..your profound guesses?
"No matter how you cut and slice the shariah, it gives no authority to Sayedna to tell people how to vote in an election of a secular country."
--Two points...Sayedna told his followers..not everyone else and second, we as bohras are not secular/religious separately. Islam applies to both for the muslims.
"be just, humble and fair, remember your duty towards the community, towards the poor and destitute, do not hoard money, spend it in the way of Allah..."
--name one quality you've listed that you don't have proof for. How many leaders go to every corner of the world to make dua and teach their followers...at this old an age?
Before replying...answers the questions I posed (sincerely) with proof.
"So now, you're not sure whether Sayedna and Modi even met."
--Firstly, quote what you know...actual info. Not what you think happen...you know the 1 crore rupees? Where's that? I don't have any info beyond "they were going to meet". So I don't hypothesis further than that.
"I didn't know the millions collected at ziyafats (this is just one example) can be classified as zakat, khums."
-Didn't say this.
"If Sayedna collects only legitimate money (zakat, khums etc.) and no other money then it stands to reason that all this should go to the poor, needy, orphans, widows, community welfare.
--Based on what says all the money Sayedna collects should ALL go to the community. The Quran doesn't say this...nor did the Prophet. Were the Imams and other Dais not living in palaces?
"Technically Sayedna should be of average means."
--Again bases on what? Quran says to be humble...not keep average means.
"Obviously he is not, this means he has other sources of income - illegitimate and accountable."
--Again based on what are his sources of income illegitimate? Accountable to who and based on what does he need to be accountable to you?
"But Allah care how a person comes into riches, how his money is spent."
--And what authority were you given to judge this?
"especially if they have become rich by dishonest means."
--Again, based on what..your profound guesses?
"No matter how you cut and slice the shariah, it gives no authority to Sayedna to tell people how to vote in an election of a secular country."
--Two points...Sayedna told his followers..not everyone else and second, we as bohras are not secular/religious separately. Islam applies to both for the muslims.
"be just, humble and fair, remember your duty towards the community, towards the poor and destitute, do not hoard money, spend it in the way of Allah..."
--name one quality you've listed that you don't have proof for. How many leaders go to every corner of the world to make dua and teach their followers...at this old an age?
Before replying...answers the questions I posed (sincerely) with proof.