Humsafar wrote the following on another thread:
Qiyam,
I've Sayedna Saheb's apology in English. (I've sent the Urdu version to Admin - if they wish to put it up on the site). Before you read the apology, I want to press home a point, again: What do we make of Dai's infallibility now? Two things, 1) either he made a mistake and said sorry or, 2) he said sorry just to save face, which is to say that his apology was insincere.
Infallibility being such a merciless attribute, it neither permits mistake nor insincerity.
................................................
English translation of Sayedna's Apology
In the name of Allah the beneficial the merciful
Alhamdu-lillahe rabbil-aalemeen. Va sallallahe ala Muhammed Sayedul Mursaleen va Khatimin Nabieen. va aala Hazrata va Sahebul ajmaeen.
This is in keeping the prestige of Islam and the unity, brotherhood and traditions of Islamic nation in mind, for which our virtuous predecessors had made constant efforts. The few words which I uttered on 22, August 1988 have hurt the religious feeling and faith of Sunni Muslims, I express my apology for the same.
I have always tried that in spite of differences in belief and faith the mutual relations and love with each other should prevail. It is because we have faith that the Muslims are united on the basis of the kalma that " There is no god but there is Allah".
Last evening (due to my hurting utterances) the displeasing situation that has been created, has weakened the mutual relations in Islamic nation. It is in benefit of all of us that we forget this bitterness and as usual embrace each other with trust and love.
I pray to God, the honour-giver, that may He lead us on right path and enhance the image of religion of Islam.
Ad-Dai-ul-Fatimi
Mohammed Burhanuddin Saturday - 3 Sept. 1988
Signed before me
Today 5th Sept 1988
S/d
C.M. Maharashtra
Letter of Sayedna's apology
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dear Humsafar,
My response is based solely on Humsafar's english translation of the apology.
If you look at the wording of Sayedna (tus) statements...he no where denies any of the words said. He says he apologized for hurting their (the sunnis) feelings...but nowhere does he take back the words. He points out that we (shiah) have differences...but should dwell on our commonalities and forget what occurred. He, the Dai, takes back his words only because it hurt the sunnis feelings...not because they were incorrect or wrong.
This is the sunnah of the Prophet..it is better to not say something hurting to a fellow muslim, then hurt their feelings (those it be true).
My response is based solely on Humsafar's english translation of the apology.
If you look at the wording of Sayedna (tus) statements...he no where denies any of the words said. He says he apologized for hurting their (the sunnis) feelings...but nowhere does he take back the words. He points out that we (shiah) have differences...but should dwell on our commonalities and forget what occurred. He, the Dai, takes back his words only because it hurt the sunnis feelings...not because they were incorrect or wrong.
This is the sunnah of the Prophet..it is better to not say something hurting to a fellow muslim, then hurt their feelings (those it be true).
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Brother Qiyam,
You wrote "He points out that we (shiah) have differences...but should dwell on our commonalities and forget what occurred."
Does he really wants us to forget what happened? or is this another statement that he made just because he now wants to create happy happy feelings but actually does not mean it?
You wrote "He points out that we (shiah) have differences...but should dwell on our commonalities and forget what occurred."
Does he really wants us to forget what happened? or is this another statement that he made just because he now wants to create happy happy feelings but actually does not mean it?
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dear Anajmi,
Does he really wants us to forget what happened? or is this another statement that he made just because he now wants to create happy happy feelings but actually does not mean it?
If you know the relations of Sayedna (tus) with the larger muslim community...you'd know the answer to your question. I would say bohras in general have better relation with muslims of various sects than any other sect of Islam. This can be said for bohras and any other religion people as well. This is because of the basic principles preached by Sayedna (tus) originally taught by the Prophet (saw): keep your iman and belief well guarded, but do not speak ill of others or their faith...for they may speak ill of Allah (paraphased).
Does he really wants us to forget what happened? or is this another statement that he made just because he now wants to create happy happy feelings but actually does not mean it?
If you know the relations of Sayedna (tus) with the larger muslim community...you'd know the answer to your question. I would say bohras in general have better relation with muslims of various sects than any other sect of Islam. This can be said for bohras and any other religion people as well. This is because of the basic principles preached by Sayedna (tus) originally taught by the Prophet (saw): keep your iman and belief well guarded, but do not speak ill of others or their faith...for they may speak ill of Allah (paraphased).
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Qiyam,
First the Dai hurts feelings of fellow muslims, then takes his words back and apologises. Doesn't these actions of a Dai speak volumes about his infallibility?
That his "hurting utterances" were right or wrong is not at issues here. Although, admitting his mistake would have shown the generoisty of his spirit and humanity. But then.....
First the Dai hurts feelings of fellow muslims, then takes his words back and apologises. Doesn't these actions of a Dai speak volumes about his infallibility?
That his "hurting utterances" were right or wrong is not at issues here. Although, admitting his mistake would have shown the generoisty of his spirit and humanity. But then.....
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dear Humsafar,
The Dai (tus) did not take back his words...he apologized that his words hurt the feelings of the sunni muslims...BUT NO WHERE DOES HE TAKE BACK HIS WORDS.
This is exactly the issue...you're using this very statement of your to bring up two issue:
1.) the fallability of the actions of the Dai's in religious terms.
2.) the degradation of his positions by eluding to apologizing under pressure.
Both issues are insinuated by you, even in your last post. Both are addressed in the letter:
Point 1. the Dai didn't take back his words
Point 2. his position is even strengthen by his fact that he addressed the issue of the feelings of the sunnis.
The Dai (tus) did not take back his words...he apologized that his words hurt the feelings of the sunni muslims...BUT NO WHERE DOES HE TAKE BACK HIS WORDS.
This is exactly the issue...you're using this very statement of your to bring up two issue:
1.) the fallability of the actions of the Dai's in religious terms.
2.) the degradation of his positions by eluding to apologizing under pressure.
Both issues are insinuated by you, even in your last post. Both are addressed in the letter:
Point 1. the Dai didn't take back his words
Point 2. his position is even strengthen by his fact that he addressed the issue of the feelings of the sunnis.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Gentlemen amd Mr.Qiyam:
Let us look at the FACTS without twisting any words:
<u>1. He said something hurtful </u>
" The few words which I uttered on 22, August 1988
have hurt the religious feeling and faith of Sunni Muslims "
<u>2. The he apologizes for this VERY act </u>
" I express my apology for the same. "
<u>3. The he reconfirms: </u>
" due to my hurting utterances the displeasing
situation that has been created "
All this is a direct quote.
What is the conclusion in nutshell?
HE DID SOMETHING, He does not like what he did, he is sorry for it and apologises
This is done when someone does something that he wished he never did in the first place.
Mr. Qiyaam please tell us
<span style='color:red'>Isn't this what we call an admission of a mistake
Let us look at the FACTS without twisting any words:
<u>1. He said something hurtful </u>
" The few words which I uttered on 22, August 1988
have hurt the religious feeling and faith of Sunni Muslims "
<u>2. The he apologizes for this VERY act </u>
" I express my apology for the same. "
<u>3. The he reconfirms: </u>
" due to my hurting utterances the displeasing
situation that has been created "
All this is a direct quote.
What is the conclusion in nutshell?
HE DID SOMETHING, He does not like what he did, he is sorry for it and apologises
This is done when someone does something that he wished he never did in the first place.
Mr. Qiyaam please tell us
<span style='color:red'>Isn't this what we call an admission of a mistake
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MOHD HUSSAIN
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Br Dilber: I totally agree with you -As usual @Qiyam has a habbit of twisting things which causes total confusion in his statements "-Syedna did not take back his words " So what? You still don't disprove that HE APOLOGIZED for his remarks! & he is not INFALLIABLE!Get that straight BR QIYAm !
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Muslim First
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
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Br. qiyam
Thank you for telling truth about Syedena's apology. Syedan's apology was most insincere on. He did it only to save his behind and dmage to life and property of his sheeps.
I understand wery well that 'tamasha' of cursing and chest beating is very important in Bohra Tariqa of Islam. You must inflame your emotions before good 'Jaman'.
I would appriciate it very much if you can explain us sunnis, the importance of cursing based on quran and sunnah of our our Prophet SAW.
Wasalaam
.
Br. qiyam
Thank you for telling truth about Syedena's apology. Syedan's apology was most insincere on. He did it only to save his behind and dmage to life and property of his sheeps.
I understand wery well that 'tamasha' of cursing and chest beating is very important in Bohra Tariqa of Islam. You must inflame your emotions before good 'Jaman'.
I would appriciate it very much if you can explain us sunnis, the importance of cursing based on quran and sunnah of our our Prophet SAW.
Wasalaam
.
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MOHD HUSSAIN
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Wait Br Muslim1st; He is thinking of some twisting answer for you!!!!!!
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dear Dilber,
If you read what you quoted you'd know that Sayedna (tus) apologized for hurting the feeling of the sunnis...not for what he said...for he continues to publicly say the same words...as all shiah do.
This is done when someone does something that he wished he never did in the first place
Yes...Sayedna (tus) wished they (the sunni) wouldn't have been hurt by what he said...BUT NO WHERE DOES HE TAKE BACK THE WORDS. The hurting was a side affect of what he said...those words were never directing towards sunnis in general in anyways.
I know many sunni today who still call all shiahs kafirs and publicly declare this in khutbas and books. Do they care of my feelings? Do they know the sunnah of the shiahs is based on authentic hadiths of the Prophet? Do they know they've cursed on 20% of the Ummah that take the shahadah?
Let me explain to you in simple example of the occurance.
My wife wore a new ridha that she really loved yesterday. I thought it was a ill fitting (too loose) for her and I told her. It hurt her feelings. I told her I didn't mean to hurt her feelings...but the truth needed to be said.
In this example my wife's feeling were hurt and I apologized that what I said hurt her. I never apologized for the truth I told her nor took back what I said. Just that it hurt her feelings.
In the same, Sayedna didn't apologize for what he said...nor took back what he said...just that it hurt the sunni muslims feelings. Nothing he said was either incorrect or wrong. To hurt someone feelings is not a issue of falibility.
If you read what you quoted you'd know that Sayedna (tus) apologized for hurting the feeling of the sunnis...not for what he said...for he continues to publicly say the same words...as all shiah do.
This is done when someone does something that he wished he never did in the first place
Yes...Sayedna (tus) wished they (the sunni) wouldn't have been hurt by what he said...BUT NO WHERE DOES HE TAKE BACK THE WORDS. The hurting was a side affect of what he said...those words were never directing towards sunnis in general in anyways.
I know many sunni today who still call all shiahs kafirs and publicly declare this in khutbas and books. Do they care of my feelings? Do they know the sunnah of the shiahs is based on authentic hadiths of the Prophet? Do they know they've cursed on 20% of the Ummah that take the shahadah?
Let me explain to you in simple example of the occurance.
My wife wore a new ridha that she really loved yesterday. I thought it was a ill fitting (too loose) for her and I told her. It hurt her feelings. I told her I didn't mean to hurt her feelings...but the truth needed to be said.
In this example my wife's feeling were hurt and I apologized that what I said hurt her. I never apologized for the truth I told her nor took back what I said. Just that it hurt her feelings.
In the same, Sayedna didn't apologize for what he said...nor took back what he said...just that it hurt the sunni muslims feelings. Nothing he said was either incorrect or wrong. To hurt someone feelings is not a issue of falibility.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dear Br. MuslimFirst,
Thank you for telling truth about Syedena's apology. Syedan's apology was most insincere on. He did it only to save his behind and dmage to life and property of his sheeps.
There was nothing insincere about he apology...he apologized for hurting the feelings of the sunnis...nothing more. If you took it as an apology for what he said and that he regretted it...then you did not read the letter at all.
I understand wery well that 'tamasha' of cursing and chest beating is very important in Bohra Tariqa of Islam. You must inflame your emotions before good 'Jaman'.
Cheaply said..though all three (barat, matam, and niyaz jaman) are all sunnahs.
I would appriciate it very much if you can explain us sunnis, the importance of cursing based on quran and sunnah of our our Prophet SAW.
We had these discussion several times...try to remember.
Wasalaam
Thank you for telling truth about Syedena's apology. Syedan's apology was most insincere on. He did it only to save his behind and dmage to life and property of his sheeps.
There was nothing insincere about he apology...he apologized for hurting the feelings of the sunnis...nothing more. If you took it as an apology for what he said and that he regretted it...then you did not read the letter at all.
I understand wery well that 'tamasha' of cursing and chest beating is very important in Bohra Tariqa of Islam. You must inflame your emotions before good 'Jaman'.
Cheaply said..though all three (barat, matam, and niyaz jaman) are all sunnahs.
I would appriciate it very much if you can explain us sunnis, the importance of cursing based on quran and sunnah of our our Prophet SAW.
We had these discussion several times...try to remember.
Wasalaam
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MOHD HUSSAIN
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Br Qiyam; Thank you for a confusing answer again!
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MOHD HUSSAIN
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Br Qiyam : You are a typical example of a hard fanatic & a hypocrite! So you say an ill word to somebody but you don't mean a real apology in your heart for saying those bad words how do you feel honest about it in your conscience?I Pity your wife (The way in which you meant your apology to her)!This is the value system you learn in the vaezes!
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Muslim First
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
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Br. MOHD HUSSAIN
Br. qiyam is correct. Syedana did mean to curse some Sahabas. And it is part of Aqida of the sect he heads. He was sorry that loudspeaker was on when he was in his most charitable form (He coluld not care s... that the feelings of sunnis were hurt. He knew that fact. He also knew that if he cursed in public he was going to get his behind kicked).
One needs to find out wether cursing is as per quranic commands and sunnah of prophet. I am going to try again put out reasons why we should not curse some sahabas.
Wasalaam
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Br. MOHD HUSSAIN
Br. qiyam is correct. Syedana did mean to curse some Sahabas. And it is part of Aqida of the sect he heads. He was sorry that loudspeaker was on when he was in his most charitable form (He coluld not care s... that the feelings of sunnis were hurt. He knew that fact. He also knew that if he cursed in public he was going to get his behind kicked).
One needs to find out wether cursing is as per quranic commands and sunnah of prophet. I am going to try again put out reasons why we should not curse some sahabas.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Mr. Qiyam:
You seem to suggest that he made no mistake and offered his apology for nothing.
I looked up english dictionaries for the meaning of the word apology and here we go:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines apology as follows:
an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret
Longman Dictionary defines apology as:
something that you say or write to show that you are sorry for doing something wrong: Your behaviour was outrageous. I demand an apology! | accept sb's apology (=forgive them after they have apologized): Please accept our sincere apologies. | owe sb an apology (=to have done something bad or unfair to someone): I owe you an apology for what I said last night - I'm really sorry. | make an apology: The paper was forced to make a grovelling apology.
Oxford dictionary defines apology as:
apology
/"pld/ noun (plural -ies) regretful acknowledgement of offence or failure
It is never too late to learn
Thanks
Dilber
You apologise for your mistakes-----------and he did find himself in error---thats is why he apologised-----
You seem to suggest that he made no mistake and offered his apology for nothing.
I looked up english dictionaries for the meaning of the word apology and here we go:
Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines apology as follows:
an admission of error or discourtesy accompanied by an expression of regret
Longman Dictionary defines apology as:
something that you say or write to show that you are sorry for doing something wrong: Your behaviour was outrageous. I demand an apology! | accept sb's apology (=forgive them after they have apologized): Please accept our sincere apologies. | owe sb an apology (=to have done something bad or unfair to someone): I owe you an apology for what I said last night - I'm really sorry. | make an apology: The paper was forced to make a grovelling apology.
Oxford dictionary defines apology as:
apology
/"pld/ noun (plural -ies) regretful acknowledgement of offence or failure
It is never too late to learn
Thanks
Dilber
You apologise for your mistakes-----------and he did find himself in error---thats is why he apologised-----
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
You apologize when you are wrong, and you never apologize for speaking the truth.That's how I was raised in an orthodox Bohri family.
Qiyam, how were you raised ?
Qiyam, how were you raised ?
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Maybe Sayedna was insincere when apologizing.
Sayedna can get away with almost anything. Cursing and cussing is the norm.
Sayedna can get away with almost anything. Cursing and cussing is the norm.
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MOHD HUSSAIN
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Hey Guys: Do you expect Qiyam to follow English Dictionary? Only Dawat Dictionory exists for him!
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Apparently you guy have more trouble with english then most.
He apologized for hurting their feeling...he even specifically states this.
The few words which I uttered on 22, August 1988 have hurt the religious feeling and faith of Sunni Muslims, I express my apology for the same
It was not an apologize in general. There is no insincerity meant. If you took the apologize for what he said instead of the hurting feeling...this is your own defect in reading english. In fact why should Sayedna apologize for what he said...it was the truth...no shiah would deny it...it is the reason we do honor Ashura and do matam.
Dear Godbless,
I was taught that if I hurt someone's feeling while speaking the truth...I apologize that what I said hurt them and that it was not meant to do so...but that the truth is more important. This is what Sayedna practices and preaches.
He apologized for hurting their feeling...he even specifically states this.
The few words which I uttered on 22, August 1988 have hurt the religious feeling and faith of Sunni Muslims, I express my apology for the same
It was not an apologize in general. There is no insincerity meant. If you took the apologize for what he said instead of the hurting feeling...this is your own defect in reading english. In fact why should Sayedna apologize for what he said...it was the truth...no shiah would deny it...it is the reason we do honor Ashura and do matam.
Dear Godbless,
I was taught that if I hurt someone's feeling while speaking the truth...I apologize that what I said hurt them and that it was not meant to do so...but that the truth is more important. This is what Sayedna practices and preaches.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dear MuslimFirst,
Let's start with the basics
Who is considered a sahaba of the Prophet (according to Sunnis)?
Anyone who saw or heard the Prophet. In this classification, any munafiq is also a sahaba.
What makes a companion special?
Initially it is there contact with the Prophet...especially their adherance and love of the Prophet.
Lets look at those that are cursed by Shiah.
Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Aisha, Talha, Zubay, Muwaiya, etc
-Denied the rights of Ali as the kaliph of the Ummah..though it was publicly declared by the Prophet..thus superceding the authority of the Prophet and becoming a munafiq.
[9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.
The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)." Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (mawla), Ali is his leader (mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him." Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
‘Ali (as) testified to hearing these words of Rasulullah (s): "By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me."
About the Battle of Camel, al-Hakim and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and others recorded that: We were in the camp of Ali on the day of Battle of Camel, where Ali sent for Talha to talk to him (before the beginning of war). Talha came forward, and Ali told him: I adjure you by Allah! Didn't you hear the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) when he said: `Whoever I am his MAWLA, this Ali is his MAWLA. O God, love whoever loves him, and be hostile to whoever is hostile to him'?" Talha replied: "Yes." Ali said: "Then why do you want to fight me?"
According to these ayats and hadiths, anyone who usurped the rights of Ali or the Prophet's Ahlul Bayt are denying the Prophet's authority. Aisha, Talha, Zubayr, and many other so called "companions" fought against Maulana Ali. The Prophet said whomever hates Ali.. hate me...whomever hates me, Allah has placed a curse on them.
Muwaiya cursed Maulana Ali, Imams Hasan and Husayn in public for nearly a century.
"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of Ali." Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition 1086
Let's start with the basics
Who is considered a sahaba of the Prophet (according to Sunnis)?
Anyone who saw or heard the Prophet. In this classification, any munafiq is also a sahaba.
What makes a companion special?
Initially it is there contact with the Prophet...especially their adherance and love of the Prophet.
Lets look at those that are cursed by Shiah.
Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Aisha, Talha, Zubay, Muwaiya, etc
-Denied the rights of Ali as the kaliph of the Ummah..though it was publicly declared by the Prophet..thus superceding the authority of the Prophet and becoming a munafiq.
[9.68] Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment.
The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)." Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right over the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (mawla), Ali is his leader (mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him." Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
‘Ali (as) testified to hearing these words of Rasulullah (s): "By him who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessing be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me."
About the Battle of Camel, al-Hakim and Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and others recorded that: We were in the camp of Ali on the day of Battle of Camel, where Ali sent for Talha to talk to him (before the beginning of war). Talha came forward, and Ali told him: I adjure you by Allah! Didn't you hear the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) when he said: `Whoever I am his MAWLA, this Ali is his MAWLA. O God, love whoever loves him, and be hostile to whoever is hostile to him'?" Talha replied: "Yes." Ali said: "Then why do you want to fight me?"
According to these ayats and hadiths, anyone who usurped the rights of Ali or the Prophet's Ahlul Bayt are denying the Prophet's authority. Aisha, Talha, Zubayr, and many other so called "companions" fought against Maulana Ali. The Prophet said whomever hates Ali.. hate me...whomever hates me, Allah has placed a curse on them.
Muwaiya cursed Maulana Ali, Imams Hasan and Husayn in public for nearly a century.
"We recognized the hypocrites by their hatred of Ali." Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p639, Tradition 1086
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Qiyam,
May I suggest a compromise?
Let Allah curse those whom he wishes to curse. And let us all be kind to one another and not insult those who are held in highest esteem by the majority of Muslims.
Let me further suggest that it is no use cursing or blessing those who are dead. It is not going to make any difference to them because sentence on them has already been decreed by Allah in accordance with their deeds and they will get their rewards on the Day of Judgement.
There is a Shia belief that "those who died in the way of Allah" are alive. They will point to an ayat in Quran for this. So, invoke blessings on people like the Prophet, Ali etc. to your heart's content. But if you believe that Yazid is alive, then you are saying he died in way of Allah. Then you can only bless him not curse him.
So, logically, you cannot curse anyone, really. In any case, if Allah has decided to send them to hell, then no amount of cursing by you is going to make any difference.
Having said that, I am still working on this idea that any God worthy of his name would ask his creations to invoke "negatives" on any of his creation.
May I suggest a compromise?
Let Allah curse those whom he wishes to curse. And let us all be kind to one another and not insult those who are held in highest esteem by the majority of Muslims.
Let me further suggest that it is no use cursing or blessing those who are dead. It is not going to make any difference to them because sentence on them has already been decreed by Allah in accordance with their deeds and they will get their rewards on the Day of Judgement.
There is a Shia belief that "those who died in the way of Allah" are alive. They will point to an ayat in Quran for this. So, invoke blessings on people like the Prophet, Ali etc. to your heart's content. But if you believe that Yazid is alive, then you are saying he died in way of Allah. Then you can only bless him not curse him.
So, logically, you cannot curse anyone, really. In any case, if Allah has decided to send them to hell, then no amount of cursing by you is going to make any difference.
Having said that, I am still working on this idea that any God worthy of his name would ask his creations to invoke "negatives" on any of his creation.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Mr. Qiyam:
<B>YOU CLEVERLY DIVERTED THE TOPIC!!!!!!</B>
You say: and I quote YOU
He apologized for hurting their feeling...he even specifically states this
so you agree he apologized, never mind for what, but he did apologize.
This is the <B>Whole Point</B>.
Apology is offered for mistakes and all we are saying your Syedna is <u>not beyond making mistakes</u>.
Now we wait for the next twist. We must admit you have a wonderful way doing this in the face of facts
Dilber
<B>YOU CLEVERLY DIVERTED THE TOPIC!!!!!!</B>
You say: and I quote YOU
He apologized for hurting their feeling...he even specifically states this
so you agree he apologized, never mind for what, but he did apologize.
This is the <B>Whole Point</B>.
Apology is offered for mistakes and all we are saying your Syedna is <u>not beyond making mistakes</u>.
Now we wait for the next twist. We must admit you have a wonderful way doing this in the face of facts
Dilber
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
qiyam is making a reasonable point in his explanation and I think that those who are taking issue with his point are insisting on a very narrow definition of "apology".
I pulled up the following explanation of the word, which the text seems to attribute to someone named Crabb (though I may have misread).
Hope this helps:
An apology, in the original sense of the word, was a pleading off from some charge or imputation, by explaining and defending one's principles or conduct. It therefore amounted to a vindication. One who offers an apology, admits himself to have been, at least apparently, in the wrong, but brings forward some palliating circumstance, or tenders a frank acknowledgment, by way of reparation.
salaam
I pulled up the following explanation of the word, which the text seems to attribute to someone named Crabb (though I may have misread).
Hope this helps:
An apology, in the original sense of the word, was a pleading off from some charge or imputation, by explaining and defending one's principles or conduct. It therefore amounted to a vindication. One who offers an apology, admits himself to have been, at least apparently, in the wrong, but brings forward some palliating circumstance, or tenders a frank acknowledgment, by way of reparation.
salaam
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dilber,
What is your point...because it has nothing to do with the original topic.
If your point is in proving that Sayedna thought he should apologize for hurting the sunni feelings leading to the concept of making a mistake (falliablity)...this is wrong. What he said was not a mistake...and he continues to say the same things today. What he apologized for (more out of sympathy) is the side affects to the sunnis and the resulting jarring relation between bohras and sunni. This is not a theological or ethical issue for mistakes...but an apology for a resultant occurance.
This is similar to the life actions of the Prophet. He publicly said to the muslim not to trust the jews and the christian...but do not attack them unless they are attacking or oppress you...nor oppress them. Trading amongst them was encouraged to establish good relation...though more within the ummah. This the Prophet did, even though the main belief of the christian and jews we, as muslims, consider sacreligious!
What is your point...because it has nothing to do with the original topic.
If your point is in proving that Sayedna thought he should apologize for hurting the sunni feelings leading to the concept of making a mistake (falliablity)...this is wrong. What he said was not a mistake...and he continues to say the same things today. What he apologized for (more out of sympathy) is the side affects to the sunnis and the resulting jarring relation between bohras and sunni. This is not a theological or ethical issue for mistakes...but an apology for a resultant occurance.
This is similar to the life actions of the Prophet. He publicly said to the muslim not to trust the jews and the christian...but do not attack them unless they are attacking or oppress you...nor oppress them. Trading amongst them was encouraged to establish good relation...though more within the ummah. This the Prophet did, even though the main belief of the christian and jews we, as muslims, consider sacreligious!
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Qiyam is correct.
Having re-read the apology several times over, he apologizes for hurting people with his statement, but not his statement. Legally speaking.....
Just as Bill Clinton's response "depends on what the meaning of is is " or " I did not have a sexual relationship with that woman..Ms Lewinsky" begging the definition of sexual relationship
Incidentally, the Shahzada in Houston spent $5000/plate to ask Bill Clinton to greet the Dai at the airport prior to his trip there. Why they would want to spend 2 lakhs of hard earned rupees of the community per person to do this is beyond me. Except that the ignorant within the community justify the Qadam Bosis' and feel the money is justified because of the international stature that this gives the Dai.
It turned out that Jew Boney rec'd the Dai at the airport, and the community had to accept him as the Mayor which he wasn't, but they don't know any better.
That's OK....there's a point in here somewhere..
Having re-read the apology several times over, he apologizes for hurting people with his statement, but not his statement. Legally speaking.....
Just as Bill Clinton's response "depends on what the meaning of is is " or " I did not have a sexual relationship with that woman..Ms Lewinsky" begging the definition of sexual relationship
Incidentally, the Shahzada in Houston spent $5000/plate to ask Bill Clinton to greet the Dai at the airport prior to his trip there. Why they would want to spend 2 lakhs of hard earned rupees of the community per person to do this is beyond me. Except that the ignorant within the community justify the Qadam Bosis' and feel the money is justified because of the international stature that this gives the Dai.
It turned out that Jew Boney rec'd the Dai at the airport, and the community had to accept him as the Mayor which he wasn't, but they don't know any better.
That's OK....there's a point in here somewhere..
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Muslim First
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Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
.
Br. qiyam, AS
I was going to rebut your last post but after reading br. Porus's post I don't think I need to. Br. Porus has said it very well. Please take to heart what he has said.
Your Ibadah to Allah SWT will be more effactive withot uttering a single curse word.
Wasalaam
.
Br. qiyam, AS
I was going to rebut your last post but after reading br. Porus's post I don't think I need to. Br. Porus has said it very well. Please take to heart what he has said.
Your Ibadah to Allah SWT will be more effactive withot uttering a single curse word.
Wasalaam
.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
Dear MuslimFirst and Porus,
What Br. Porus said is all well and good...but is not what Allah nor the Prophet taught. It may be an approach that an individual takes...but one the entire community cannot. You see, one of the teaching via the Quran and the sunnah..is to separate ourselves from the kafir and hypocrites to a certain degree. In addition, it is to expose those that have harmed the community as a whole.
The persons that all shiahs curse are done both to distinguish the followers of the ahlul bayt from those who chose their own leaders and denied the command of Allah and the sunnah of the Prophet. This is not a small issue and is a root item of our aqida (belief). It is no different than acknowledging the Prophet himself. What is the point of following the parts of the sunnah of the Prophet, and not following other major parts???
I bring a point I brought up earlier. All muslims are part of one ummah. It is the differences that only separate from each other in regards to being muminin. We must still care and respect one another. This is the reason why Sayedna (tus) apologized in the first place...and what he teaches his followers.
I would say many sunni scholars do the same...looking at the commonalities (which are great) when approaching relation between communities.
Yet the majority say to their congregations will still say shiahs are munafiqs/kafir..and have strayed from the path. Books and khutbas are published and broadcasted everyday. No one has yet to apologize to the shiahs. No one has yet looked at our (shiahs) feelings of hurt and torment.
We follow the teachings of the Prophet and can quote from the sunni's own sources our beliefs. Yet they would call us liars. While they cannot prove their beliefs of the kaliphas from their own sources.
To most sunni, Aisha, who waged war against Maulana Ali, has a higher rank than that of Khadija or Fatima...both of whom are the leaders of the women of Jannah. Most sunnis don't know of any of the Imams because of slanted teachings.
What Br. Porus said is all well and good...but is not what Allah nor the Prophet taught. It may be an approach that an individual takes...but one the entire community cannot. You see, one of the teaching via the Quran and the sunnah..is to separate ourselves from the kafir and hypocrites to a certain degree. In addition, it is to expose those that have harmed the community as a whole.
The persons that all shiahs curse are done both to distinguish the followers of the ahlul bayt from those who chose their own leaders and denied the command of Allah and the sunnah of the Prophet. This is not a small issue and is a root item of our aqida (belief). It is no different than acknowledging the Prophet himself. What is the point of following the parts of the sunnah of the Prophet, and not following other major parts???
I bring a point I brought up earlier. All muslims are part of one ummah. It is the differences that only separate from each other in regards to being muminin. We must still care and respect one another. This is the reason why Sayedna (tus) apologized in the first place...and what he teaches his followers.
I would say many sunni scholars do the same...looking at the commonalities (which are great) when approaching relation between communities.
Yet the majority say to their congregations will still say shiahs are munafiqs/kafir..and have strayed from the path. Books and khutbas are published and broadcasted everyday. No one has yet to apologize to the shiahs. No one has yet looked at our (shiahs) feelings of hurt and torment.
We follow the teachings of the Prophet and can quote from the sunni's own sources our beliefs. Yet they would call us liars. While they cannot prove their beliefs of the kaliphas from their own sources.
To most sunni, Aisha, who waged war against Maulana Ali, has a higher rank than that of Khadija or Fatima...both of whom are the leaders of the women of Jannah. Most sunnis don't know of any of the Imams because of slanted teachings.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
one of the teaching via the Quran and the sunnah..is to separate ourselves from the kafir and hypocrites to a certain degree.
And who, except Allah, will judge who is a kafir and a hypocrite?
Let me suggest an interpretation. Look inward and consider if these qualities are not within you. A spiritual lesson is that others reflect our true self. So, if you see a hypocrite, then that is true of you alone. Spiritual teachings do not ask you to seperate yourselves from others but to seperate ourselves from those aspects of ourselves that impede our spiritual growth and unfoldment. Remember, message of the Quran is that of Unity; that means that we consider that we are all in some way one and that it is percieved separation that is the root cause of conflict in the world.
"You are kafir."
"No, you are kafir."
This is a paradigm for killing, mayhem and war.
And who, except Allah, will judge who is a kafir and a hypocrite?
Let me suggest an interpretation. Look inward and consider if these qualities are not within you. A spiritual lesson is that others reflect our true self. So, if you see a hypocrite, then that is true of you alone. Spiritual teachings do not ask you to seperate yourselves from others but to seperate ourselves from those aspects of ourselves that impede our spiritual growth and unfoldment. Remember, message of the Quran is that of Unity; that means that we consider that we are all in some way one and that it is percieved separation that is the root cause of conflict in the world.
"You are kafir."
"No, you are kafir."
This is a paradigm for killing, mayhem and war.
Re: Letter of Sayedna's apology
If hurting fellow Muslims feelings is not an ethical issue then I wonder what is!!! Qiyam, I sympathise with you for having to defend the indefensible, but the plain fact is that the Dai goofed, and goofed big time. His utterances - no matter how justifiable according to the narrow-minded shia doctrine - caused public unrest and became a political embarrassment for the establishment. He apologised to save face - and his skin. The whole episode tarnished his image. But thanks to the ill-gotten wealth through which he buys political protection and prestige that saved the day for him and his establishment.Originally posted by qiyam:
This is not a theological or ethical issue for mistakes...but an apology for a resultant occurance.
Dilber is correct, the point of the apology is that it proves - if proof was ever needed - that the Dai of our time is not beyond mistake. It proves that the Dai is no more infallible than he is all-knowing (gaib na jaannar). The Dai cannot be so innocent as not to know that his "utterances" over the PA system will not hurt the feelings of sunnis who live in the neighbourhood. His remarks were callous and insensitive, certainly not the qualities of an infallible Dai.
I agree with Pours, cursing is a futile exercise. It is all the more pathetic when the Dai indulges in it. As a man of religion he should know better. But he is no fool, he knows better - but couldn't care less. After all, cursing the dead is easier than doing something constructive for the living.