Dear Qiyam,
Allah's "miracles" are accepted. Allah chooses Muhammad to receive a revelation and to conduct him on a journey to heavens in Meraj. Yet arguably, these are not what we would ordinarily call miracles, because for Allah all things are possible.
Popular notion of a miracle attributed to a human is when a human is given credit for a miraculous act, whether he attributes that to Allah or not. Like some Bohras believe that Sayedna can cure blindness, make the lame walk, and cause elephants to bow before him when he kills them. These types of miracles are not attributed to Prophet in the Quran.
Anything attributed to Allah is not, by definition, a miracle.
Did I hear it right that Quran claims Quran to be an only miracle?
Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Qiyam,
My post was not directed at you, but it might as well have been.
"---Never said safai chitti doesn't exist".
On 7/12/02 you replied to Hafeez by calling the Safai Chitti a "letter of introduction".
On 9/16/02 you replied to Believer by saying "The safai chitti is usually only to stay at the musafir khannas of the ziyarats"
"never said shahzadas don't receive salams"
On 12/18/01 your response to Believer
Believer: "Surely even you can't claim that the so called Shahzadas are gainfully employed."
You: "It is more important that I can't claim they are not."
"Please provid proof...you have yet to do so"
The proof is that I have lived it and experienced it. Had the community been a free society with no repercussions against my family members who believe as you do, I would have gladly cited specifics. This board functions on assumed anonymity, or your propaganda would be all that people hear (malumaat.com). I don't need your confirmation of my experiences, so I have nothing to prove to you. I would if you could guarantee that my family would not be excommunicated or harassed, but can you ?
Qiyam, you have entered the no spin zone....
My post was not directed at you, but it might as well have been.
"---Never said safai chitti doesn't exist".
On 7/12/02 you replied to Hafeez by calling the Safai Chitti a "letter of introduction".
On 9/16/02 you replied to Believer by saying "The safai chitti is usually only to stay at the musafir khannas of the ziyarats"
"never said shahzadas don't receive salams"
On 12/18/01 your response to Believer
Believer: "Surely even you can't claim that the so called Shahzadas are gainfully employed."
You: "It is more important that I can't claim they are not."
"Please provid proof...you have yet to do so"
The proof is that I have lived it and experienced it. Had the community been a free society with no repercussions against my family members who believe as you do, I would have gladly cited specifics. This board functions on assumed anonymity, or your propaganda would be all that people hear (malumaat.com). I don't need your confirmation of my experiences, so I have nothing to prove to you. I would if you could guarantee that my family would not be excommunicated or harassed, but can you ?
Qiyam, you have entered the no spin zone....
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Asghar Ali Engineer,
You claim to be a scholar,
Wish I could hold you by the collar,
and fine you millions of dollar.
In reality you are a hypocrite,
Lying is your habit,
Creating doubt bit by bit.
You claim to be a scholar,
Wish I could hold you by the collar,
and fine you millions of dollar.
In reality you are a hypocrite,
Lying is your habit,
Creating doubt bit by bit.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
ha ha ha huzeif from beeing a curser he is now trying to be a poet.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
anwar ....
You are fool that is why you are laughing just like that. What Br Huzaifa has said is true..
Just because there is a black parda infront of your eyes you really cant see anything what is right and what is wrong
Abde sayedna tus
Raheel
You are fool that is why you are laughing just like that. What Br Huzaifa has said is true..
Just because there is a black parda infront of your eyes you really cant see anything what is right and what is wrong
Abde sayedna tus
Raheel
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Porus,
Miracles, as you and I have described, are given by Allah alone. It is the one asking for the dua that does make a difference. Allah says he answers the duas of the pious and sincere. These traits are not easy to attain.
"Yet arguably, these are not what we would ordinarily call miracles, because for Allah all things are possible."
--This is correct...but you are suggesting that Allah does anything for anyone...thus down grading the actions of Allah. Allah will not answer the prayers of just anyone at anytime without certain stipulation. Thus when the Prophet asked a dua of Allah, and Allah grants the dua...it is both a karimah of Allah and indicated the position of the Prophet near Allah.
"Like some Bohras believe that Sayedna can cure blindness, make the lame walk, and cause elephants to bow before him when he kills them. These types of miracles are not attributed to Prophet in the Quran."
--Not everything is in the Quran to begin with...but many things are. Examples of the kind you list are mentioned in the Quran for other Prophets. Like was, Allah can do anything...why would Allah not be able to answer the dua of Sayedna to perform things you mentioned. You will never hear Sayedna (tus) claiming the he created the end outcome...just the dua.
Miracles, as you and I have described, are given by Allah alone. It is the one asking for the dua that does make a difference. Allah says he answers the duas of the pious and sincere. These traits are not easy to attain.
"Yet arguably, these are not what we would ordinarily call miracles, because for Allah all things are possible."
--This is correct...but you are suggesting that Allah does anything for anyone...thus down grading the actions of Allah. Allah will not answer the prayers of just anyone at anytime without certain stipulation. Thus when the Prophet asked a dua of Allah, and Allah grants the dua...it is both a karimah of Allah and indicated the position of the Prophet near Allah.
"Like some Bohras believe that Sayedna can cure blindness, make the lame walk, and cause elephants to bow before him when he kills them. These types of miracles are not attributed to Prophet in the Quran."
--Not everything is in the Quran to begin with...but many things are. Examples of the kind you list are mentioned in the Quran for other Prophets. Like was, Allah can do anything...why would Allah not be able to answer the dua of Sayedna to perform things you mentioned. You will never hear Sayedna (tus) claiming the he created the end outcome...just the dua.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Godbless,
Very weak argument.
"---Never said safai chitti doesn't exist".
On 7/12/02 you replied to Hafeez by calling the Safai Chitti a "letter of introduction".
On 9/16/02 you replied to Believer by saying "The safai chitti is usually only to stay at the musafir khannas of the ziyarats"
---Where have I lied or said something incorrect. The safai chitti existed...it is a letter of introduction from your jamat to the place your going (that your sabil is paid)...and is usually only needed when staying at the musafir khanna.
"never said shahzadas don't receive salams"
On 12/18/01 your response to Believer
Believer: "Surely even you can't claim that the so called Shahzadas are gainfully employed."
You: "It is more important that I can't claim they are not."
----Again, where did I mislead you...neither of can claim that the shahzada are not gainfully employed...what has that to do with salams with money. My parent get salams with money at the beginning of every month...my dad still has a job.
"Please provid proof...you have yet to do so"
The proof is that I have lived it and experienced it. "
---See what you call proof is no different then me using my statements as proof. So far everything you claim....I can find actual dawat texts and publishing to back my statement up.
Very weak argument.
"---Never said safai chitti doesn't exist".
On 7/12/02 you replied to Hafeez by calling the Safai Chitti a "letter of introduction".
On 9/16/02 you replied to Believer by saying "The safai chitti is usually only to stay at the musafir khannas of the ziyarats"
---Where have I lied or said something incorrect. The safai chitti existed...it is a letter of introduction from your jamat to the place your going (that your sabil is paid)...and is usually only needed when staying at the musafir khanna.
"never said shahzadas don't receive salams"
On 12/18/01 your response to Believer
Believer: "Surely even you can't claim that the so called Shahzadas are gainfully employed."
You: "It is more important that I can't claim they are not."
----Again, where did I mislead you...neither of can claim that the shahzada are not gainfully employed...what has that to do with salams with money. My parent get salams with money at the beginning of every month...my dad still has a job.
"Please provid proof...you have yet to do so"
The proof is that I have lived it and experienced it. "
---See what you call proof is no different then me using my statements as proof. So far everything you claim....I can find actual dawat texts and publishing to back my statement up.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Hej raheel, how come you have to come to huzaif´s assistance?Has he bought you with all his wealth?
You two seem to go in tandem, nothing fishy between you two, is there?????
You two seem to go in tandem, nothing fishy between you two, is there?????
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
One thing to add:
Mr. Engineer quoted verse 23:33 as his defense as follows:
"It is no use pointing out that the Qur'an refuses to show miracles through the Prophet (PBUH). In several Qur'anic verses like 23:33 prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way. This is about the prophets and here a da'i claims all sorts of miracles."
Let's look at verses 23:32 throught 23:34
[23.32] So We sent among them an apostle from among them, saying: Serve Allah, you have no god other than Him; will you not then guard (against evil)?
[23.33] And the chiefs of his people who disbelieved and called the meeting of the hereafter a lie, and whom We had given plenty to enjoy in this world's life, said: This is nothing but a mortal like yourselves, eating of what you eat from and drinking of what you drink.
[23.34] And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers:
Who is saying the apostle is a mortal like yourselves??? The chiefs of his people who disbelieved!!!
Mr. Engineer quoted verse 23:33 as his defense as follows:
"It is no use pointing out that the Qur'an refuses to show miracles through the Prophet (PBUH). In several Qur'anic verses like 23:33 prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way. This is about the prophets and here a da'i claims all sorts of miracles."
Let's look at verses 23:32 throught 23:34
[23.32] So We sent among them an apostle from among them, saying: Serve Allah, you have no god other than Him; will you not then guard (against evil)?
[23.33] And the chiefs of his people who disbelieved and called the meeting of the hereafter a lie, and whom We had given plenty to enjoy in this world's life, said: This is nothing but a mortal like yourselves, eating of what you eat from and drinking of what you drink.
[23.34] And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers:
Who is saying the apostle is a mortal like yourselves??? The chiefs of his people who disbelieved!!!
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Follow up to my post:
What was Prophet's and Allah's response to the meligning statements of the chief:
[23.39] He (Muhammad) said: O my Lord! help me against their calling me a liar.
[23.40] He (Allah) said: In a little while they will most certainly be repenting.
[23.41] So the punishment overtook them in justice, and We made them as rubbish; so away with the unjust people.
Allah destroyed a generation because they lied against the Prophet. How many human beings will Allah do that for???? How will Mr. Engineer be treated for lying against the Prophet.
What was Prophet's and Allah's response to the meligning statements of the chief:
[23.39] He (Muhammad) said: O my Lord! help me against their calling me a liar.
[23.40] He (Allah) said: In a little while they will most certainly be repenting.
[23.41] So the punishment overtook them in justice, and We made them as rubbish; so away with the unjust people.
Allah destroyed a generation because they lied against the Prophet. How many human beings will Allah do that for???? How will Mr. Engineer be treated for lying against the Prophet.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Who is saying the apostle is a mortal like yourselves??? The chiefs of his people who disbelieved!!!
Lets look at the verses immediately preceding 23/39 which you 'forgot':
<blockquote>23/35 "Does he promise that when ye die and become dust and bones, ye shall be brought forth (again)?
23/36 "Far, very far is that which ye are promised!
23/37 "There is nothing but our life in this world! We shall die and we live! But we shall never be raised up again!
23/38 "He is only a man who invents a lie against God, but we are not the ones to believe in him!" </blockquote>The lie that the prophet is protesting against is about the denying the hereafter, not about the prophet being a mortal. The apostles were mortals like us as confirmed by another verse:
<blockquote>14/11 Their apostles said to them: We are nothing but mortals like yourselves, but Allah bestows (His) favors on whom He pleases of His servants, and it is not for us that we should bring you an authority except by Allah's permission; and on Allah should the believers rely.
</blockquote>
Lets look at the verses immediately preceding 23/39 which you 'forgot':
<blockquote>23/35 "Does he promise that when ye die and become dust and bones, ye shall be brought forth (again)?
23/36 "Far, very far is that which ye are promised!
23/37 "There is nothing but our life in this world! We shall die and we live! But we shall never be raised up again!
23/38 "He is only a man who invents a lie against God, but we are not the ones to believe in him!" </blockquote>The lie that the prophet is protesting against is about the denying the hereafter, not about the prophet being a mortal. The apostles were mortals like us as confirmed by another verse:
<blockquote>14/11 Their apostles said to them: We are nothing but mortals like yourselves, but Allah bestows (His) favors on whom He pleases of His servants, and it is not for us that we should bring you an authority except by Allah's permission; and on Allah should the believers rely.
</blockquote>
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Muslim,
"Mortal like us" were the words the chief used in the ayat:
[23.34] And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers.
The reason I didn't quote the ayats in between is because they add nothing to either argument. No one in this discussion denied the mortally of the Prophet...just the special treatment he has with regards to Allah...which by chance...you reference to ayat 14:11 totally affirms. Thus further Mr. Engineer comments on the Prophet.
"Mortal like us" were the words the chief used in the ayat:
[23.34] And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers.
The reason I didn't quote the ayats in between is because they add nothing to either argument. No one in this discussion denied the mortally of the Prophet...just the special treatment he has with regards to Allah...which by chance...you reference to ayat 14:11 totally affirms. Thus further Mr. Engineer comments on the Prophet.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
The bases of Mr. Engineer's statement is that the Prophet was not different than any other human, except that he received revealation.
Mr Engineer's view corresponds with the Quran:<blockquote>18/110 Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. </blockquote>
Mr Engineer's view corresponds with the Quran:<blockquote>18/110 Say: "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your God is one God: whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner. </blockquote>
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Qiyam,
"So far everything you claim....I can find actual dawat texts and publishing to back my statement up. "
So far you haven't found a damn thing that refutes my real world experiences, and even if you were to find "dawat texts", they would be meaningless unless enforced by real world experiences.
Good try anyways.
"So far everything you claim....I can find actual dawat texts and publishing to back my statement up. "
So far you haven't found a damn thing that refutes my real world experiences, and even if you were to find "dawat texts", they would be meaningless unless enforced by real world experiences.
Good try anyways.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
The reason I didn't quote the ayats in between is because they add nothing to either argument.
You accuse someone of "lying against the Prophet" (= unsubstantiated opinion) by quoting only 2 sections and deliberately leaving out whats in between. That is pathetic.
No one in this discussion denied the mortally of the Prophet
So why bring it up?
just the special treatment he has with regards to Allah...which by chance...you reference to ayat 14:11 totally affirms.
No it doesn't.
You accuse someone of "lying against the Prophet" (= unsubstantiated opinion) by quoting only 2 sections and deliberately leaving out whats in between. That is pathetic.
No one in this discussion denied the mortally of the Prophet
So why bring it up?
just the special treatment he has with regards to Allah...which by chance...you reference to ayat 14:11 totally affirms.
No it doesn't.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Godbless,
So like I stated your experience and my experiences are at opposite...but just as you think your is correct...so do I think mine is correct.
Actually yes I did, and have quoted them on other thread regarding it. The other stuff is apparent to everyone...and is probably why you didn't retort my reply.
Did I lie about the safai chitti, or the shahzadas, or anything else you complained about that I retorted? Please point out.
So like I stated your experience and my experiences are at opposite...but just as you think your is correct...so do I think mine is correct.
Actually yes I did, and have quoted them on other thread regarding it. The other stuff is apparent to everyone...and is probably why you didn't retort my reply.
Did I lie about the safai chitti, or the shahzadas, or anything else you complained about that I retorted? Please point out.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Muslim,
Do you understand what the entire point of my original response was about!
Let me state it again to make you happy:
Mr. Engineer claims the Prophet:
1. just like any other human and the only thing different is that the Prophet was chosen to receive revealation. For this Mr. Engineer referenced 23:33.
2. The Quran doesn't record any miracles of the Prophet.
On point one, you've missed the entire point...the argument was never about if the Prophet was a mortal or not...but that elevated in status and nearness to Allah...thus not all humans are equal to Allah. Mr. Engineer argued that the only difference between you, me and the Prophet is that the Prophet received revealation. My argument was how can that be true??? We as muslims are commanded by Allah to follow everything the Prophet does. Is anyone required to follow you as part of your faith??? Secondly, we as muslims are struggle to figure out the meanings of this life and what the hereafter is and about Allah. Who are we turning to to understand these questions...the Prophet. If he know these things already and was teachings the muslims...he is by shear intelligence superior to any human.
Now, in addition to the above...the argument of verse 23:33. Firstly, the "scholar" Mr. Engineer misread the verse..thinking the Prophet said the things...that actually the chief said. Secondly, to make you happy let quote the whole section:
[23.31] Then We raised up after them another generation.
[23.32] So We sent among them an apostle from among them, saying: Serve Allah, you have no god other than Him; will you not then guard (against evil)?
[23.33] And the chiefs of his people who disbelieved and called the meeting of the hereafter a lie, and whom We had given plenty to enjoy in this world's life, said: This is nothing but a mortal like yourselves, eating of what you eat from and drinking of what you drink.
[23.34] And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers:
[23.35] What! does he (the Prophet) threaten you that when you are dead and become dust and bones that you shall then be brought forth?
[23.36] Far, far is that which you are threatened with.
[23.37] There is naught but our life in this world; we die and we live and we shall not be raised again.
[23.38] He is naught but a man who has forged a lie against Allah, and we are not going to believe in him.
---everything above was what the chief said of the Prophet
[23.39] He (the Prophet) said: O my Lord! help me against their calling me a liar.
[23.40] He (Allah) said: In a little while they will most certainly be repenting.
[23.41] So the punishment overtook them in justice, and We made them as rubbish; so away with the unjust people.
---Again, did not quoting those middle verse refute what the original argument was...No. Again, how many humans in the world, when lied about, will Allah destroy the entire generation??
Again the argument wasn't if the Prophet was mortal..he is...but that he is not like any other human, because of the favors Allah bestows on him (special treatment).
Do you understand what the entire point of my original response was about!
Let me state it again to make you happy:
Mr. Engineer claims the Prophet:
1. just like any other human and the only thing different is that the Prophet was chosen to receive revealation. For this Mr. Engineer referenced 23:33.
2. The Quran doesn't record any miracles of the Prophet.
On point one, you've missed the entire point...the argument was never about if the Prophet was a mortal or not...but that elevated in status and nearness to Allah...thus not all humans are equal to Allah. Mr. Engineer argued that the only difference between you, me and the Prophet is that the Prophet received revealation. My argument was how can that be true??? We as muslims are commanded by Allah to follow everything the Prophet does. Is anyone required to follow you as part of your faith??? Secondly, we as muslims are struggle to figure out the meanings of this life and what the hereafter is and about Allah. Who are we turning to to understand these questions...the Prophet. If he know these things already and was teachings the muslims...he is by shear intelligence superior to any human.
Now, in addition to the above...the argument of verse 23:33. Firstly, the "scholar" Mr. Engineer misread the verse..thinking the Prophet said the things...that actually the chief said. Secondly, to make you happy let quote the whole section:
[23.31] Then We raised up after them another generation.
[23.32] So We sent among them an apostle from among them, saying: Serve Allah, you have no god other than Him; will you not then guard (against evil)?
[23.33] And the chiefs of his people who disbelieved and called the meeting of the hereafter a lie, and whom We had given plenty to enjoy in this world's life, said: This is nothing but a mortal like yourselves, eating of what you eat from and drinking of what you drink.
[23.34] And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers:
[23.35] What! does he (the Prophet) threaten you that when you are dead and become dust and bones that you shall then be brought forth?
[23.36] Far, far is that which you are threatened with.
[23.37] There is naught but our life in this world; we die and we live and we shall not be raised again.
[23.38] He is naught but a man who has forged a lie against Allah, and we are not going to believe in him.
---everything above was what the chief said of the Prophet
[23.39] He (the Prophet) said: O my Lord! help me against their calling me a liar.
[23.40] He (Allah) said: In a little while they will most certainly be repenting.
[23.41] So the punishment overtook them in justice, and We made them as rubbish; so away with the unjust people.
---Again, did not quoting those middle verse refute what the original argument was...No. Again, how many humans in the world, when lied about, will Allah destroy the entire generation??
Again the argument wasn't if the Prophet was mortal..he is...but that he is not like any other human, because of the favors Allah bestows on him (special treatment).
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Qiyam,
I have pointed out that you claimed that the Safai Chitti is a letter of introduction, which is a false statement. You claim that it is usually only used when travelling which is a false statement. If the above were true, then one would request one only when travelling, as one would a Visa or a Passport. Furthermore, Letters of Introduction are not color coded as the Safai Chitti is.
I have also pointed out your claim that the Shahzadas may have jobs and there is no proof that they live off the salaams.
I agree with you, and it is obvious that your experiences, have been different than mine, however, it is unfair to claim that mine don't exist. I am sure Utopian Jamaats exists and perhaps those are the only ones you have visited.
I have pointed out that you claimed that the Safai Chitti is a letter of introduction, which is a false statement. You claim that it is usually only used when travelling which is a false statement. If the above were true, then one would request one only when travelling, as one would a Visa or a Passport. Furthermore, Letters of Introduction are not color coded as the Safai Chitti is.
I have also pointed out your claim that the Shahzadas may have jobs and there is no proof that they live off the salaams.
I agree with you, and it is obvious that your experiences, have been different than mine, however, it is unfair to claim that mine don't exist. I am sure Utopian Jamaats exists and perhaps those are the only ones you have visited.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Godbless,
"I have pointed out that you claimed that the Safai Chitti is a letter of introduction, which is a false statement."
---If you have a safai chitti, read what is written on top..and what is written within it. If you know lisan ad'dawat you would know it is a letter of introduction of your standing with your local jamat.
"You claim that it is usually only used when travelling which is a false statement. If the above were true, then one would request one only when travelling, as one would a Visa or a Passport."
---Actually, each person going on ziyarat must have a safai chitti for themselves must like a passport..just as one going on a trip must have a visa for themselves. Just as a four year needs a passport...so he/she need a safai chitti.
"Furthermore, Letters of Introduction are not color coded as the Safai Chitti is."
---If you knew the difference between green, yellow, etc...you would know why the color indicators. The green lets the foreign jamat know that the person is clear both with the jamat (ie sabil) and Islamically (ie not in riba). The yellow indicated the person is clear only with the jamat. Note the safai chitti is only used when staying at the musafir khanna or within the jamat for a particular ritual.
"I have also pointed out your claim that the Shahzadas may have jobs and there is no proof that they live off the salaams."
---If you read my actual statements, I said majority of the shahzadas work (typically within dawat al'hadiyah) and don't live off the money receive with salams. I never said they don't recieve money with salams.
"I agree with you, and it is obvious that your experiences, have been different than mine, however, it is unfair to claim that mine don't exist."
---I never said your didn't. I vehemently disagree with your habit of labeling your experiences as the norm...because it is far, far from it. I have been in three continent (Africa, Pak/India, and currently in the US). I can tell you honestly, that though the mumin in the US are far advanced in secular knowledge (thus made them wealthier)...because of this they lack the inspiration to strengthen their islamic knowledge. This is not to say they are islamically ignorant...but if you talk to a mumin in India and one UK/US, you would know the difference immediately. I will admit there are many factor (other than financial) that may cause this. The community is stronger in lands that have larger populas.
"I have pointed out that you claimed that the Safai Chitti is a letter of introduction, which is a false statement."
---If you have a safai chitti, read what is written on top..and what is written within it. If you know lisan ad'dawat you would know it is a letter of introduction of your standing with your local jamat.
"You claim that it is usually only used when travelling which is a false statement. If the above were true, then one would request one only when travelling, as one would a Visa or a Passport."
---Actually, each person going on ziyarat must have a safai chitti for themselves must like a passport..just as one going on a trip must have a visa for themselves. Just as a four year needs a passport...so he/she need a safai chitti.
"Furthermore, Letters of Introduction are not color coded as the Safai Chitti is."
---If you knew the difference between green, yellow, etc...you would know why the color indicators. The green lets the foreign jamat know that the person is clear both with the jamat (ie sabil) and Islamically (ie not in riba). The yellow indicated the person is clear only with the jamat. Note the safai chitti is only used when staying at the musafir khanna or within the jamat for a particular ritual.
"I have also pointed out your claim that the Shahzadas may have jobs and there is no proof that they live off the salaams."
---If you read my actual statements, I said majority of the shahzadas work (typically within dawat al'hadiyah) and don't live off the money receive with salams. I never said they don't recieve money with salams.
"I agree with you, and it is obvious that your experiences, have been different than mine, however, it is unfair to claim that mine don't exist."
---I never said your didn't. I vehemently disagree with your habit of labeling your experiences as the norm...because it is far, far from it. I have been in three continent (Africa, Pak/India, and currently in the US). I can tell you honestly, that though the mumin in the US are far advanced in secular knowledge (thus made them wealthier)...because of this they lack the inspiration to strengthen their islamic knowledge. This is not to say they are islamically ignorant...but if you talk to a mumin in India and one UK/US, you would know the difference immediately. I will admit there are many factor (other than financial) that may cause this. The community is stronger in lands that have larger populas.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Qiyam,
You are contradicting yourself. If a Safai Chitti is only used while travelling, then "Just as a four year needs a passport...so he/she need a safai chitti." is a false statement. One would only need one for travelling.
You have now expanded your statement by saying "or within the jamat for a particular ritual". That was my point and we are now in agreement! It is needed for more than travelling, and for EVERY ritual has been my experience.
I see that as a concession from you, otherwise please explain.
"I said majority of the shahzadas work (typically within dawat al'hadiyah) and don't live off the money receive with salams." Does the dawat al'hadiyah normally pay for their employees to travel alongside daddy overseas on hunting trips on chartered planes ? How much does the dawat al'hadiyah pay them ?
My Letter of Introduction (Passport) only comes in one color...Green.
You are contradicting yourself. If a Safai Chitti is only used while travelling, then "Just as a four year needs a passport...so he/she need a safai chitti." is a false statement. One would only need one for travelling.
You have now expanded your statement by saying "or within the jamat for a particular ritual". That was my point and we are now in agreement! It is needed for more than travelling, and for EVERY ritual has been my experience.
I see that as a concession from you, otherwise please explain.
"I said majority of the shahzadas work (typically within dawat al'hadiyah) and don't live off the money receive with salams." Does the dawat al'hadiyah normally pay for their employees to travel alongside daddy overseas on hunting trips on chartered planes ? How much does the dawat al'hadiyah pay them ?
My Letter of Introduction (Passport) only comes in one color...Green.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Godbless,
"If a Safai Chitti is only used while travelling, then "Just as a four year needs a passport...so he/she need a safai chitti." is a false statement. One would only need one for travelling."
---I didn't say safai chitti is ONLY for traveling...I gave the explaination based what it is typically or usually used for.
"You have now expanded your statement by saying "or within the jamat for a particular ritual". That was my point and we are now in agreement! It is needed for more than travelling, and for EVERY ritual has been my experience."
---If my words led you to believe that safai chitti is ONLY for traveling, it was not my intention...this is why is said it is USUALLY for traveling on ziyarats.
"I see that as a concession from you, otherwise please explain."
--please carefully reread my posts...I never stated it was only for traveling.
"Does the dawat al'hadiyah normally pay for their employees to travel alongside daddy overseas on hunting trips on chartered planes ? How much does the dawat al'hadiyah pay them ?"
---actually I cannot personally answer those question...I don't know. From my experience, the jamat hosting Maulana, pays for their travels.
"If a Safai Chitti is only used while travelling, then "Just as a four year needs a passport...so he/she need a safai chitti." is a false statement. One would only need one for travelling."
---I didn't say safai chitti is ONLY for traveling...I gave the explaination based what it is typically or usually used for.
"You have now expanded your statement by saying "or within the jamat for a particular ritual". That was my point and we are now in agreement! It is needed for more than travelling, and for EVERY ritual has been my experience."
---If my words led you to believe that safai chitti is ONLY for traveling, it was not my intention...this is why is said it is USUALLY for traveling on ziyarats.
"I see that as a concession from you, otherwise please explain."
--please carefully reread my posts...I never stated it was only for traveling.
"Does the dawat al'hadiyah normally pay for their employees to travel alongside daddy overseas on hunting trips on chartered planes ? How much does the dawat al'hadiyah pay them ?"
---actually I cannot personally answer those question...I don't know. From my experience, the jamat hosting Maulana, pays for their travels.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Qiyam,
Thank you for the clarification. I believe we are in agreement now.
Thank you for the clarification. I believe we are in agreement now.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
<I>Mr. Engineer claims the Prophet:
1. just like any other human and the only thing different is that the Prophet was chosen to receive revealation. For this Mr. Engineer referenced 23:33.</I>
Correction: **For this Mr. Engineer referenced “several Qur'anic verses like 23:33”**
The statement is true, according to 23/33 as well as many other verses like 18/110.
<I>2. The Quran doesn't record any miracles of the Prophet. </I>
This is correct according to Quran 29/50, 13/7
<I>the argument was never about if the Prophet was a mortal or not...but that elevated in status and nearness to Allah</I>
Anyone can be elevated in status to Allah due to his/her righteousness and conduct, prophet or no-prophet. The prophet was, it is believed, excellent in those respects.
<I>Mr. Engineer argued that the only difference between you, me and the Prophet is that the Prophet received revealation. My argument was how can that be true??? </I>
Because:
(a) the Quran says so: 18/110.
(b) a hadith confirms this: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection." – bukhari v9, b92, n379
<I>We as muslims are commanded by Allah to follow everything the Prophet does. Is anyone required to follow you as part of your faith??? Secondly, we as muslims are struggle to figure out the meanings of this life and what the hereafter is and about Allah. Who are we turning to to understand these questions...the Prophet. If he know these things already and was teachings the muslims...he is by shear intelligence superior to any human.</I>
And how do you think he knew all these things? Revelation! Obedience has been made obligatory on the Prophet because the Quran was revealed though his tongue.
<I>Now, in addition to the above...the argument of verse 23:33. Firstly, the "scholar" Mr. Engineer misread the verse..thinking the Prophet said the things...that actually the chief said.</I>
It seems you did not read: “In several Qur'anic verses like 23:33 prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way.” --- it doesn’t say the prophet said those things in 23:33 (although he does in other verses).
<I>Again, did not quoting those middle verse refute what the original argument was...No. Again, how many humans in the world, when lied about, will Allah destroy the entire generation??</I>
Let me correct that: **“Again, how many humans in the world, when lied to about denying the afterlife according to the verses that I missed out, will Allah destroy the entire generation??” ** -- Answer: Prophets - because they received revelation and were told to warn the people.
<I>Again the argument wasn't if the Prophet was mortal..he is...but that he is not like any other human, because of the favors Allah bestows on him (special treatment). </I>
Allah bestows his favours on anyone He wants to – prophet or no-prophet.
1. just like any other human and the only thing different is that the Prophet was chosen to receive revealation. For this Mr. Engineer referenced 23:33.</I>
Correction: **For this Mr. Engineer referenced “several Qur'anic verses like 23:33”**
The statement is true, according to 23/33 as well as many other verses like 18/110.
<I>2. The Quran doesn't record any miracles of the Prophet. </I>
This is correct according to Quran 29/50, 13/7
<I>the argument was never about if the Prophet was a mortal or not...but that elevated in status and nearness to Allah</I>
Anyone can be elevated in status to Allah due to his/her righteousness and conduct, prophet or no-prophet. The prophet was, it is believed, excellent in those respects.
<I>Mr. Engineer argued that the only difference between you, me and the Prophet is that the Prophet received revealation. My argument was how can that be true??? </I>
Because:
(a) the Quran says so: 18/110.
(b) a hadith confirms this: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection." – bukhari v9, b92, n379
<I>We as muslims are commanded by Allah to follow everything the Prophet does. Is anyone required to follow you as part of your faith??? Secondly, we as muslims are struggle to figure out the meanings of this life and what the hereafter is and about Allah. Who are we turning to to understand these questions...the Prophet. If he know these things already and was teachings the muslims...he is by shear intelligence superior to any human.</I>
And how do you think he knew all these things? Revelation! Obedience has been made obligatory on the Prophet because the Quran was revealed though his tongue.
<I>Now, in addition to the above...the argument of verse 23:33. Firstly, the "scholar" Mr. Engineer misread the verse..thinking the Prophet said the things...that actually the chief said.</I>
It seems you did not read: “In several Qur'anic verses like 23:33 prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way.” --- it doesn’t say the prophet said those things in 23:33 (although he does in other verses).
<I>Again, did not quoting those middle verse refute what the original argument was...No. Again, how many humans in the world, when lied about, will Allah destroy the entire generation??</I>
Let me correct that: **“Again, how many humans in the world, when lied to about denying the afterlife according to the verses that I missed out, will Allah destroy the entire generation??” ** -- Answer: Prophets - because they received revelation and were told to warn the people.
<I>Again the argument wasn't if the Prophet was mortal..he is...but that he is not like any other human, because of the favors Allah bestows on him (special treatment). </I>
Allah bestows his favours on anyone He wants to – prophet or no-prophet.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Muslim,
"For this Mr. Engineer referenced “several Qur'anic verses like 23:33”**
The statement is true, according to 23/33 as well as many other verses like 18/110."
-- firstly, your again missing the point...Mr. Engineer wrote for citing that ayats "..prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way." According to this statement..every human is equal in status to Allah, including every Prophet, except for the fact they received revealation. Your citing of ayat 18:110 has nothing to do with this...NO ONE DENIES THE MORTALITY OF THE PROPHET. The Prophet was born, live, and died. He had two legs, two arms, a head, hair, etc..so yes physically he is no different than anyother human. But that's not Mr. Engineer's argument. He say you or me or him were equal in status to Prophet...which is sacreligious! We were told by ALLAH to OBEY THE PROPHET. The Prophet has the same authority on us as Allah does. I surely cannot claim that...nor any muslim.
"2. The Quran doesn't record any miracles of the Prophet.
This is correct according to Quran 29/50, 13/7"
---Was the travel from Mekkah to Jerselum..not a miracle??? How does 29:50 and 13:7 relate...no one denies that Allah creates the miracle. And the Prophet himself was the sign:
[2.118] And those who have no knowledge say: Why does not Allah speak to us or a sign come to us? Even thus said those before them, the like of what they say; their hearts are all alike. Indeed We have made the communications clear for a people who are sure.
[2.119] Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and as a warner, and you shall not be called upon to answer for the companions of the flaming fire.
"Anyone can be elevated in status to Allah due to his/her righteousness and conduct, prophet or no-prophet. The prophet was, it is believed, excellent in those respects."
---Based on what have you determined that. I have graduated from college...so did Albert Einstein....does that mean Mr. Einstein and myself are equal in intelligence??? It is because Mr. Einstein was given the mental capability by God to excel as he did. So to was the Prophet given the mental/physical abilities to accept and practice the revealation to the outmost. The Prophet was Allah's example of a true mumin and thus is why we are required to follow him. This doesn't by any means mean that we can attain the status of the Prophet. The Prophet was given wisdom that we are not given.
"Mr. Engineer argued that the only difference between you, me and the Prophet is that the Prophet received revealation. My argument was how can that be true???
Because:
(a) the Quran says so: 18/110."
---see my reply above...and no..18:110 say the Prophet is a mortal...not all mortal are alike.
(b) a hadith confirms this: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection." – bukhari v9, b92, n379
---Do you deny that by the dua of the Prophet that Allah answered and gave those miracles?
"And how do you think he knew all these things? Revelation! Obedience has been made obligatory on the Prophet because the Quran was revealed though his tongue."
---See my response above. Yes revealation to a particular person...who was known as Amin. Why obeident to him? He revealed the book and chosen to teach all mankind adherance to Islam. Most of what we do in rituals is not in the Quran (performance of prayer, limitation of Jihad, performance of Hajj, rules for Sawm). The Prophet was given wisdom that we are not given thus he is by that very nature excels above other humans.
"It seems you did not read: “In several Qur'anic verses like 23:33 prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way.” --- it doesn’t say the prophet said those things in 23:33 (although he does in other verses)."
---No...the chief said those things, not the Prophet...the chief said "this is nothing but a mortal like yourselves, eating of what you eat from and drinking of what you drink. And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers"...and this was the crux of Mr. Engineer's argument...that the Prophet is no different than any human.
"Let me correct that: **“Again, how many humans in the world, when lied to about denying the afterlife according to the verses that I missed out, will Allah destroy the entire generation??” ** -- Answer: Prophets - because they received revelation and were told to warn the people."
---So base on your own statement...Allah would destroy an entire generation only if your a Prophet. Am I correct? If this is true...how many humans can claim to be a prophet?
"Allah bestows his favours on anyone He wants to – prophet or no-prophet."
---No doubt...but Mr. Engineer's argument was that the Quran doesn't allow for miracles..and I quote "It is no use pointing out that the Qur'an refuses to show miracles through the Prophet (PBUH)." What you wrote was my entire point...that Allah bestows miracles on those He chooses...Prophet or non-prophet...this would include Dai, sheikhs, mumin, etc.
"For this Mr. Engineer referenced “several Qur'anic verses like 23:33”**
The statement is true, according to 23/33 as well as many other verses like 18/110."
-- firstly, your again missing the point...Mr. Engineer wrote for citing that ayats "..prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way." According to this statement..every human is equal in status to Allah, including every Prophet, except for the fact they received revealation. Your citing of ayat 18:110 has nothing to do with this...NO ONE DENIES THE MORTALITY OF THE PROPHET. The Prophet was born, live, and died. He had two legs, two arms, a head, hair, etc..so yes physically he is no different than anyother human. But that's not Mr. Engineer's argument. He say you or me or him were equal in status to Prophet...which is sacreligious! We were told by ALLAH to OBEY THE PROPHET. The Prophet has the same authority on us as Allah does. I surely cannot claim that...nor any muslim.
"2. The Quran doesn't record any miracles of the Prophet.
This is correct according to Quran 29/50, 13/7"
---Was the travel from Mekkah to Jerselum..not a miracle??? How does 29:50 and 13:7 relate...no one denies that Allah creates the miracle. And the Prophet himself was the sign:
[2.118] And those who have no knowledge say: Why does not Allah speak to us or a sign come to us? Even thus said those before them, the like of what they say; their hearts are all alike. Indeed We have made the communications clear for a people who are sure.
[2.119] Surely We have sent you with the truth as a bearer of good news and as a warner, and you shall not be called upon to answer for the companions of the flaming fire.
"Anyone can be elevated in status to Allah due to his/her righteousness and conduct, prophet or no-prophet. The prophet was, it is believed, excellent in those respects."
---Based on what have you determined that. I have graduated from college...so did Albert Einstein....does that mean Mr. Einstein and myself are equal in intelligence??? It is because Mr. Einstein was given the mental capability by God to excel as he did. So to was the Prophet given the mental/physical abilities to accept and practice the revealation to the outmost. The Prophet was Allah's example of a true mumin and thus is why we are required to follow him. This doesn't by any means mean that we can attain the status of the Prophet. The Prophet was given wisdom that we are not given.
"Mr. Engineer argued that the only difference between you, me and the Prophet is that the Prophet received revealation. My argument was how can that be true???
Because:
(a) the Quran says so: 18/110."
---see my reply above...and no..18:110 say the Prophet is a mortal...not all mortal are alike.
(b) a hadith confirms this: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection." – bukhari v9, b92, n379
---Do you deny that by the dua of the Prophet that Allah answered and gave those miracles?
"And how do you think he knew all these things? Revelation! Obedience has been made obligatory on the Prophet because the Quran was revealed though his tongue."
---See my response above. Yes revealation to a particular person...who was known as Amin. Why obeident to him? He revealed the book and chosen to teach all mankind adherance to Islam. Most of what we do in rituals is not in the Quran (performance of prayer, limitation of Jihad, performance of Hajj, rules for Sawm). The Prophet was given wisdom that we are not given thus he is by that very nature excels above other humans.
"It seems you did not read: “In several Qur'anic verses like 23:33 prophets are described as human beings who are servants of Allah and are different from others only to the extent that they receive revelation and in no other way.” --- it doesn’t say the prophet said those things in 23:33 (although he does in other verses)."
---No...the chief said those things, not the Prophet...the chief said "this is nothing but a mortal like yourselves, eating of what you eat from and drinking of what you drink. And if you obey a mortal like yourselves, then most surely you will be losers"...and this was the crux of Mr. Engineer's argument...that the Prophet is no different than any human.
"Let me correct that: **“Again, how many humans in the world, when lied to about denying the afterlife according to the verses that I missed out, will Allah destroy the entire generation??” ** -- Answer: Prophets - because they received revelation and were told to warn the people."
---So base on your own statement...Allah would destroy an entire generation only if your a Prophet. Am I correct? If this is true...how many humans can claim to be a prophet?
"Allah bestows his favours on anyone He wants to – prophet or no-prophet."
---No doubt...but Mr. Engineer's argument was that the Quran doesn't allow for miracles..and I quote "It is no use pointing out that the Qur'an refuses to show miracles through the Prophet (PBUH)." What you wrote was my entire point...that Allah bestows miracles on those He chooses...Prophet or non-prophet...this would include Dai, sheikhs, mumin, etc.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
> The Prophet was given wisdom that we are not given thus he is by that very nature excels above other humans.
It would seem to me that there is roudabout support in the Qur'an of qiyam's point:
If I understand correctly, the malaikat and jinn were told to bow before Adam because he had knowledge they did not have. He was superior to them because, among other things, he had the ability to choose right when given the capacity to choose wrong (unlike the angels). This ability was granted him by God, and is highlighted by the angels' reply that they did not know what Adam knew because God did not tell them.
That said, I would also point out that scholars have recorded (among them Haykal) that stories of miracles attributed to the Prophet increased as time passed, and so become rather questionable. As far as I understand, the unequivocal miracle of the Prophet was the Qur'an Itself, which he clearly could not have produced, being illiterate and devoid of any formal education in the Arabic language.
salaams
It would seem to me that there is roudabout support in the Qur'an of qiyam's point:
If I understand correctly, the malaikat and jinn were told to bow before Adam because he had knowledge they did not have. He was superior to them because, among other things, he had the ability to choose right when given the capacity to choose wrong (unlike the angels). This ability was granted him by God, and is highlighted by the angels' reply that they did not know what Adam knew because God did not tell them.
That said, I would also point out that scholars have recorded (among them Haykal) that stories of miracles attributed to the Prophet increased as time passed, and so become rather questionable. As far as I understand, the unequivocal miracle of the Prophet was the Qur'an Itself, which he clearly could not have produced, being illiterate and devoid of any formal education in the Arabic language.
salaams
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Qiyam
The only difference between us and the prophet is that he received revelation. Any human could in theory be as righteous as the prophet, but he would still not be a prophet because he did not receive any revelation. I gave 18/110 as evidence of this in addition to 23/33. Anyone who has access to an English translation of the Quran can see this and decide for themselves. Please lets not argue about what is “mortal” and “human,” the two can be used interchangeably since all humans are mortals. Yusuf Ali uses the word “man” for 18/110 while Shakir and Pickthall use “mortal”.
You say <I>“He say you or me or him were equal in status to Prophet.”</I> You know very well the word status is not even used. I would say “in the eyes of Allah, all are equal except in righteousness”.
<I>"Anyone can be elevated in status to Allah due to his/her righteousness and conduct, prophet or no-prophet. The prophet was, it is believed, excellent in those respects."
--Based on what have you determined that</I>
Based on the Quran 49/13 “the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you.” Remember this verse is address to all of mankind. Secondly, 33/21 states that the prophet was excellent in conduct.
Regarding obedience to the Prophet I have already argued that obedience is required due to revelation. Logically we would have to obey and trust the Prophet in order to accept the Quran because it was revealed through him.
<I>Was the travel from Mekkah to Jerselum..not a miracle??? How does 29:50 and 13:7 relate...no one denies that Allah creates the miracle.</I>
29/50-51 Ye they say: "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The signs are indeed with God: and I am indeed a clear Warner." <B>And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them?</B> Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
The prophet is refusing to perform miracles. The only sign that is enough for the unbelievers is the Quran. Secondly the hadith I stated is clear that Muhammad unlike other prophets did NOT perform miracles.
<I>What you wrote was my entire point...that Allah bestows miracles on those He chooses...Prophet or non-prophet...this would include Dai, sheikhs, mumin, etc. </I>
Qiyam, please don’t put words into my mouth. I said “favours” not “miracles” with reference to 14/11. We all receive all sorts of favours from Allah in our every day life for which we are thankful.
The only difference between us and the prophet is that he received revelation. Any human could in theory be as righteous as the prophet, but he would still not be a prophet because he did not receive any revelation. I gave 18/110 as evidence of this in addition to 23/33. Anyone who has access to an English translation of the Quran can see this and decide for themselves. Please lets not argue about what is “mortal” and “human,” the two can be used interchangeably since all humans are mortals. Yusuf Ali uses the word “man” for 18/110 while Shakir and Pickthall use “mortal”.
You say <I>“He say you or me or him were equal in status to Prophet.”</I> You know very well the word status is not even used. I would say “in the eyes of Allah, all are equal except in righteousness”.
<I>"Anyone can be elevated in status to Allah due to his/her righteousness and conduct, prophet or no-prophet. The prophet was, it is believed, excellent in those respects."
--Based on what have you determined that</I>
Based on the Quran 49/13 “the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you.” Remember this verse is address to all of mankind. Secondly, 33/21 states that the prophet was excellent in conduct.
Regarding obedience to the Prophet I have already argued that obedience is required due to revelation. Logically we would have to obey and trust the Prophet in order to accept the Quran because it was revealed through him.
<I>Was the travel from Mekkah to Jerselum..not a miracle??? How does 29:50 and 13:7 relate...no one denies that Allah creates the miracle.</I>
29/50-51 Ye they say: "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The signs are indeed with God: and I am indeed a clear Warner." <B>And is it not enough for them that we have sent down to thee the Book which is rehearsed to them?</B> Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
The prophet is refusing to perform miracles. The only sign that is enough for the unbelievers is the Quran. Secondly the hadith I stated is clear that Muhammad unlike other prophets did NOT perform miracles.
<I>What you wrote was my entire point...that Allah bestows miracles on those He chooses...Prophet or non-prophet...this would include Dai, sheikhs, mumin, etc. </I>
Qiyam, please don’t put words into my mouth. I said “favours” not “miracles” with reference to 14/11. We all receive all sorts of favours from Allah in our every day life for which we are thankful.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Khairan
You said with regards to Adam, <I>“He was superior to them because, among other things, he had the ability to choose right when given the capacity to choose wrong (unlike the angels).”</I>
You should note that ALL of mankind have the ability to choose between right and wrong, and therefore in that respect ANY person who choses the path of righteousness is superior to angels.
With respect to the knowledge that was given to Adam and to other prophets, this knowledge could not have been obtained by any means other than revelation or inspiration from Allah… which goes back to the point that we are only different from them due to them having received revelation.
You said with regards to Adam, <I>“He was superior to them because, among other things, he had the ability to choose right when given the capacity to choose wrong (unlike the angels).”</I>
You should note that ALL of mankind have the ability to choose between right and wrong, and therefore in that respect ANY person who choses the path of righteousness is superior to angels.
With respect to the knowledge that was given to Adam and to other prophets, this knowledge could not have been obtained by any means other than revelation or inspiration from Allah… which goes back to the point that we are only different from them due to them having received revelation.
-
Asghar Ali Engineer
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 5:01 am
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Mr.Qiyam,
Thanks for your comments. This is precise the point that the unbelievers demanded that a prophet should not be like men but an angel. It is Qur'an which maintained yes, they are like other men except that they (prophets) are bearers of wahi, revelation. That is the only distinction. It is stated in so many verses in the Qur'an. Qur'an never accepted their demand that 'show us the miracle'. See the verses in the Qur'an17:90-93. What more proof you want that the Qur'an does not talk of any miracles for the prophets but the divine message. It is so clear in these verses that no one should further argue about miracles.
Qur'an lays great emphasis on reason, not on superstition. Allah also says in the Qur'an "wala tajidu li sunnatillahi tabdila" i.e. you will not find change in the law of Allah. He does not change His law for anyone. So many great Islamic thinkers like Muhammad Abduh of Egypt (who was mufti A`zam of Egypt and Vice-Chacellor of Al-Azhar in early twentieth century), Jamal al-Din Afghani, Sir Syed from India, Maulvi Chiragh Ali, Syed Amir Ali and numerous others have quoted these verses from the Qur'an to refute the demand for miracles or beliefs in miracles by ordinary Muslims.
The Isma`ili tawil explains away all the miracles assigned to Prophet Moses or Isa and others in a very reasoned manner and maintains that it is nothing but a symmbolic expression of the Qur'an with hidden meaning. Kindly study all this before rushing to the conclusion that Qur'an disseminates unnatural superstitious beliefs.
Asghar Ali Engineer
Thanks for your comments. This is precise the point that the unbelievers demanded that a prophet should not be like men but an angel. It is Qur'an which maintained yes, they are like other men except that they (prophets) are bearers of wahi, revelation. That is the only distinction. It is stated in so many verses in the Qur'an. Qur'an never accepted their demand that 'show us the miracle'. See the verses in the Qur'an17:90-93. What more proof you want that the Qur'an does not talk of any miracles for the prophets but the divine message. It is so clear in these verses that no one should further argue about miracles.
Qur'an lays great emphasis on reason, not on superstition. Allah also says in the Qur'an "wala tajidu li sunnatillahi tabdila" i.e. you will not find change in the law of Allah. He does not change His law for anyone. So many great Islamic thinkers like Muhammad Abduh of Egypt (who was mufti A`zam of Egypt and Vice-Chacellor of Al-Azhar in early twentieth century), Jamal al-Din Afghani, Sir Syed from India, Maulvi Chiragh Ali, Syed Amir Ali and numerous others have quoted these verses from the Qur'an to refute the demand for miracles or beliefs in miracles by ordinary Muslims.
The Isma`ili tawil explains away all the miracles assigned to Prophet Moses or Isa and others in a very reasoned manner and maintains that it is nothing but a symmbolic expression of the Qur'an with hidden meaning. Kindly study all this before rushing to the conclusion that Qur'an disseminates unnatural superstitious beliefs.
Asghar Ali Engineer
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Asghar Ali Engineer,
You are a lying rascal. You have only one intention. To destroy the Daawat.
I swear by Allah that you can never succeed because this is Haq nee Daawat.
May you develop Alzheimer's disease and may you die in a state of insanity.
I curse you and your Satanic companions.
May all of you thrown into Sijjin where you will find no room to escape.
You are a lying rascal. You have only one intention. To destroy the Daawat.
I swear by Allah that you can never succeed because this is Haq nee Daawat.
May you develop Alzheimer's disease and may you die in a state of insanity.
I curse you and your Satanic companions.
May all of you thrown into Sijjin where you will find no room to escape.
Re: Da'i should be respected as a religious leader - not wo
Dear Muslim,
"Regarding obedience to the Prophet I have already argued that obedience is required due to revelation. Logically we would have to obey and trust the Prophet in order to accept the Quran because it was revealed through him."
---Based on your argument, every action of the Prophet was revelation, because we are told to obey him in every respect..not just the Quran or religion...for Islam (faith) is in everything. Would this be correct? If so, how is this similar to any other human. The Prophet has authority over all humankind...not just on things basis on the Quran revelation. It is not just that the Prophet received the revelation but he practiced and taught them exclusively. He is the example. Secondly, every ayat you quote deals with idea of the Prophet being a mortal (human being) like everyone else...which he is. He is physically in anatomy like any other human. Are all humans mentally or spirtually alike? No. This is the difference...and what I am refuting. I think the whole issue is the belittling of receiving and teaching revelation.
The Prophet did just receive the Quran from God and told to give copies to everyone and let them heed My words. No. He was first taught by God and told to teach everyone the correct understanding of Islam and the Quran.
"Regarding obedience to the Prophet I have already argued that obedience is required due to revelation. Logically we would have to obey and trust the Prophet in order to accept the Quran because it was revealed through him."
---Based on your argument, every action of the Prophet was revelation, because we are told to obey him in every respect..not just the Quran or religion...for Islam (faith) is in everything. Would this be correct? If so, how is this similar to any other human. The Prophet has authority over all humankind...not just on things basis on the Quran revelation. It is not just that the Prophet received the revelation but he practiced and taught them exclusively. He is the example. Secondly, every ayat you quote deals with idea of the Prophet being a mortal (human being) like everyone else...which he is. He is physically in anatomy like any other human. Are all humans mentally or spirtually alike? No. This is the difference...and what I am refuting. I think the whole issue is the belittling of receiving and teaching revelation.
The Prophet did just receive the Quran from God and told to give copies to everyone and let them heed My words. No. He was first taught by God and told to teach everyone the correct understanding of Islam and the Quran.