I fully agree with seeker.
Ziarats of these great men has become a lucrative business for the dai and his bandits.
The revenue generated is mind-boggling!! This money is again spent on Kothars "aish-o-aaram" and to gain political support througout the world, thus making them stronger to rule and enslave us for the next 100 years.
Its high time that we abolish this ritual (ziarats), not because it is anti-islam, but because it actually makes no sense.
Kaka Akela, your dai is corrupt to the core, I will not even compare him with a prostitute!!!
Ziarat has become an expensive affair
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like_minded
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
i went about two years back to Galiyakot and burhanpur.and i was asked to pay two 2000rps deposit and 1 stayed for one day at both place and when i asked for balance the amil said that rest for balance will go in the gullu.they just rob you if thet know that you are foreigner.thats how low they are.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Next time go to Alaska,Hawai or British Coloumbia.Remember God is everywhere,you do want to see the good parts of his creation.Just get the most bang out of your buck.
I also make mannats, just a little diffrent from regular mannats.My mannat is to go to China and rent a motorcycle for a week.See some beaches in Thailand and see the beautiful mountains of New Zealand.Insha-allah.
I also make mannats, just a little diffrent from regular mannats.My mannat is to go to China and rent a motorcycle for a week.See some beaches in Thailand and see the beautiful mountains of New Zealand.Insha-allah.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
I do not perform 'ziyarat' of any dead people, PERIOD; other than paying my initial respects during burial.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
When it comes to "disposing of dead body", there are countless reasons as to why I'd certainly prefer cremation over burial. Embalming of dead bodies and eventually burrying them underground or "under the surface" is a pre-historical ritual of "presense to rememberance" and has no scientific advantage nor religious solace.
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Hussain_KSA
- Posts: 874
- Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 4:01 am
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Well, At least you do something good.Originally posted by Danish:
I do not perform 'ziyarat' of any dead people, PERIOD; other than paying my initial respects during burial.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
MOONLIGHT,
well I been to burhanpur couple times they have never ask us any deposit.
well I been to burhanpur couple times they have never ask us any deposit.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Did everybody notice, how fast the rates of everything are going up, as if there is no tomorrow?
As a matter of fact, I feel that Ali Baba and his charso chor have realised that time for collecting the loot is short as Syedna is counting his days.
They also realise that after the death of the Syedna, the charso thieves will fall out.
The speed of collection has to go up, because time is short.
The abde syednas will pray that the syedna live till qayamat, but that does not matter. They have failed in this prayer for the last 51 times so nothing they do will change the facts. Their wishful thinking notwithstanding.
As a matter of fact, I feel that Ali Baba and his charso chor have realised that time for collecting the loot is short as Syedna is counting his days.
They also realise that after the death of the Syedna, the charso thieves will fall out.
The speed of collection has to go up, because time is short.
The abde syednas will pray that the syedna live till qayamat, but that does not matter. They have failed in this prayer for the last 51 times so nothing they do will change the facts. Their wishful thinking notwithstanding.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Aareef...I'm not KA, neither an idiot...although you've conveniently ignored to address each and every "Fact" or "Fiction" of mine.
And for those of you who do not wish to go for Ziyarat, PLEASE don't !!! You all seem to be very literate people, so why should anybody force their convictions on you. Please do not go to Kerbella or Najaf, nor to Medina to pay your respects to the House of our Prophet and Ali at Masjid-un-Nabawi !!!
I still maintain and absolutely believe that to perform Ziyarat is an inherent part of our belief. However, I also stongly believe that it's about time that someone, somehwere, addresses the systemic corruption we have in ALL our Jamaats around the world, because if we don't, then the next generation(s) to come will not have any faith in our Community, our Aamil and obviously our Dai.
Accountability of funds by the Aayaans, their deeds (and mis-deeds too) should be addressed at the highest level possible.
I also do not think that "selecting" Office Bearers is the right way, I think "electing" the Office Bearers by the local Jamaat Members is the way to go; on the same token, I do not think that the Local Aamil should have absolute powers over finance etc. An Aamil is for "Religious" matters, whilst the Aayans or Ofice Bearers should be for all other matters, especially to hold themselves 100% accountable to the local population first, before "anyone" and that includes the Aamil too. By mixing Religion with the running of the Daily Affairs of the Local Jamaat is where we see all these problems. By the way, no Aamil has liked this system, because, in effect, it takes away all the power from them and hands it to us, the public; and that is why we have such a strong opposition to the idea of "elections" rather than "selection" in everything we do !!!
I mean why can we not ask our Jamaat where have they spent the Sabeel collected? Why should we be ostracised for simply asking for an Income and Expense Statement on an Annual Basis? Can someone please explain why, in this day and age, are we not allowed to ask any questions without the fear of being ex-communicated, or baraat? !!!
And for those of you who do not wish to go for Ziyarat, PLEASE don't !!! You all seem to be very literate people, so why should anybody force their convictions on you. Please do not go to Kerbella or Najaf, nor to Medina to pay your respects to the House of our Prophet and Ali at Masjid-un-Nabawi !!!
I still maintain and absolutely believe that to perform Ziyarat is an inherent part of our belief. However, I also stongly believe that it's about time that someone, somehwere, addresses the systemic corruption we have in ALL our Jamaats around the world, because if we don't, then the next generation(s) to come will not have any faith in our Community, our Aamil and obviously our Dai.
Accountability of funds by the Aayaans, their deeds (and mis-deeds too) should be addressed at the highest level possible.
I also do not think that "selecting" Office Bearers is the right way, I think "electing" the Office Bearers by the local Jamaat Members is the way to go; on the same token, I do not think that the Local Aamil should have absolute powers over finance etc. An Aamil is for "Religious" matters, whilst the Aayans or Ofice Bearers should be for all other matters, especially to hold themselves 100% accountable to the local population first, before "anyone" and that includes the Aamil too. By mixing Religion with the running of the Daily Affairs of the Local Jamaat is where we see all these problems. By the way, no Aamil has liked this system, because, in effect, it takes away all the power from them and hands it to us, the public; and that is why we have such a strong opposition to the idea of "elections" rather than "selection" in everything we do !!!
I mean why can we not ask our Jamaat where have they spent the Sabeel collected? Why should we be ostracised for simply asking for an Income and Expense Statement on an Annual Basis? Can someone please explain why, in this day and age, are we not allowed to ask any questions without the fear of being ex-communicated, or baraat? !!!
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
It took you three days to figure that out.Aareef...I'm not KA, neither an idiot...
Anyways, apart from the strong feeling of removing corruption in jamaats around the world do you have any concrete plan to achieve that?
Remember one thing that you have written nothing new in your list of facts and fiction and hence I did not think it neccessary to answer your laundry list of facts vs fiction. About Galiyakot whatever I have written is based on my true personal experience and it is a fact too. If it is different from your fact I don't care..
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
I think the best person to answer this question would be Kaka Akela.Can someone please explain why, in this day and age, are we not allowed to ask any questions without the fear of being ex-communicated, or baraat? !!!
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Some of us do have to work for a living...
Aareef, since you are 100% correct, obvoiusly the "rest of us" must be 100% wrong, because everybody seems to be an idiot to you.
I think your hatred is spewing out in the form of venom, and you do not mean well to the other readers!!!
Anyways, since I've a laundry list of ideas, where's YOUR list of whatever you may have planned? Have you considered what your children will be if, hypothetically, say, we no longer have a Dai, a Mazoon a Muquasir and a Jammat?
Aareef, since you are 100% correct, obvoiusly the "rest of us" must be 100% wrong, because everybody seems to be an idiot to you.
I think your hatred is spewing out in the form of venom, and you do not mean well to the other readers!!!
Anyways, since I've a laundry list of ideas, where's YOUR list of whatever you may have planned? Have you considered what your children will be if, hypothetically, say, we no longer have a Dai, a Mazoon a Muquasir and a Jammat?
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Kaka Akela
- Posts: 484
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Areef:
quote: Can someone please explain why, in this day and age, are we not allowed to ask any questions without the fear of being ex-communicated, or baraat? !!!
I think the best person to answer this question would be Kaka Akela.
---------------------------------
1)Areef calls Fakhruddin Shaheed a Syedna
2)Areef calls Fakhruddin shaheed a bheel
3)Areef calls Fakhruddin shaheed Bharmal
4)Areef then calls me an idiot
5) then Areef says I am the best person to answer this Question. Wonderful Areef
Well, I CAN answer the question if Areef doesn't get too personal and start calling me names again because that discourages me and others like me to come back and discuss anything sensibly.
Now, about the above question about questioning the Aamil without the fear of baraat is a big myth created by those who are already out of jamaat or have never participated in the working of jamaat, i.e never been a secretary,treasurer, or a member of any jamaat committee. What I say is true in USA and I have no idea how things work in India, pakistan and other places as I have spent most of my adult life in USA and have been involved in running the jamaat intimately in the state of Texas. and what I say is basically applies to most USA Jamaats.
As a member of jamaat committee I have been nose to nose or eye ball to eye ball on many
ocassions with the local Aamil discussing sabeels and his own slaams and I have not been baraated yet or even threatened of it. Jamaat account is open to all members of the jamaat, they are not published or posted and there is no need of it as they are pretty extensive. All needed is to ask with right attitude and the right person. there are two ways of asking the question. one way is to gain genuine knowledge and the other way is to check to see if they are stealing jamaat monies. Jamaat accounts are audited by an outside CPA who is not a dawoodi bora and submitted yearly to the
Texas state for continuing the status of non-profit organization. There are 15-20 members in full committe and they know intimately how the money is spent and much is coming in. with that many members knowing there in not a chance of any hanky panky by any Aamil or any other member.Aamils do have casting vote(or final say) in any matters as we all are believers in the fact that an Aamil has good intentions at heart for his jamaat also he has extra knowledge about right and wrong amal in shariat and we trust his judgement.
If your attitude towards Dai, Dawat, Aamil is flawed to begin with then all your thinking becomes flawed and you see a crook in every corner. But if you have love for Dai in your heart then you see blessings in every corner. This is why I had said in an ealier post that love of Dai is the touchstone of Dawoodi Bohra faith. If you don't have that then you question everything and nothing is holy or sacred.
this is my honest reply to your question and I am hoping the name calling will stop not just for me but for all so we can discuss productively.
quote: Can someone please explain why, in this day and age, are we not allowed to ask any questions without the fear of being ex-communicated, or baraat? !!!
I think the best person to answer this question would be Kaka Akela.
---------------------------------
1)Areef calls Fakhruddin Shaheed a Syedna
2)Areef calls Fakhruddin shaheed a bheel
3)Areef calls Fakhruddin shaheed Bharmal
4)Areef then calls me an idiot
5) then Areef says I am the best person to answer this Question. Wonderful Areef
Well, I CAN answer the question if Areef doesn't get too personal and start calling me names again because that discourages me and others like me to come back and discuss anything sensibly.
Now, about the above question about questioning the Aamil without the fear of baraat is a big myth created by those who are already out of jamaat or have never participated in the working of jamaat, i.e never been a secretary,treasurer, or a member of any jamaat committee. What I say is true in USA and I have no idea how things work in India, pakistan and other places as I have spent most of my adult life in USA and have been involved in running the jamaat intimately in the state of Texas. and what I say is basically applies to most USA Jamaats.
As a member of jamaat committee I have been nose to nose or eye ball to eye ball on many
ocassions with the local Aamil discussing sabeels and his own slaams and I have not been baraated yet or even threatened of it. Jamaat account is open to all members of the jamaat, they are not published or posted and there is no need of it as they are pretty extensive. All needed is to ask with right attitude and the right person. there are two ways of asking the question. one way is to gain genuine knowledge and the other way is to check to see if they are stealing jamaat monies. Jamaat accounts are audited by an outside CPA who is not a dawoodi bora and submitted yearly to the
Texas state for continuing the status of non-profit organization. There are 15-20 members in full committe and they know intimately how the money is spent and much is coming in. with that many members knowing there in not a chance of any hanky panky by any Aamil or any other member.Aamils do have casting vote(or final say) in any matters as we all are believers in the fact that an Aamil has good intentions at heart for his jamaat also he has extra knowledge about right and wrong amal in shariat and we trust his judgement.
If your attitude towards Dai, Dawat, Aamil is flawed to begin with then all your thinking becomes flawed and you see a crook in every corner. But if you have love for Dai in your heart then you see blessings in every corner. This is why I had said in an ealier post that love of Dai is the touchstone of Dawoodi Bohra faith. If you don't have that then you question everything and nothing is holy or sacred.
this is my honest reply to your question and I am hoping the name calling will stop not just for me but for all so we can discuss productively.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Simpleton,I think your hatred is spewing out in the form of venom, and you do not mean well to the other readers!!!
Let's ceasefire... I do not have anything personal against you.. Whatever I wrote was based on my experience and whatever you wrote was based on your experience... Let's leave it at that and move on...
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
1) Kaka Akela believes that if someone does not believe in Dai, he is not a muslim
2) Kaka Akela believes that the administration working for the Dai with HIS permission is corrupt and the Dai is masoom and should not be blamed for any of that
3) Kaka Akela believes that he knows about Imam Tayyib only through Dai. If Dai would not have told him, he would have never known anything about the history of Imams.
4) Kaka Akela has no idea whatsoever where Imam Tayyib is today. He has given no explaination about his immortality or his precence in this Universe.
5) Kaka Akela can never explain that why the prophet(PBUH) did not decide to go in to pardah. That way Islam would have remained intact as nobody would have ever questioned his final authority on anything and we would never have had so many sub-castes within Islam becos prophet(pbuh) gave us only one Islam and we divided it in so many castes and sub-castes.
6) Kaka Akela compares logic with history. I did not know that Fakhruddin Shahid is not a Dai, he was not a bheel and he was not bharmal. This is lack of historic knowledge. However, in no way this reduces the respect that I have for that great man and this is true for any other dawoodi bohra. But alas, Kaka Akela will never understand this fact.
After posting all this Kaka Akela expects that people should respect his level of intelligence and not call him a idiot..
Kakaji I am sorry. Maaf kardo yaar.. Bachche ki jaan logen kyaa???
2) Kaka Akela believes that the administration working for the Dai with HIS permission is corrupt and the Dai is masoom and should not be blamed for any of that
3) Kaka Akela believes that he knows about Imam Tayyib only through Dai. If Dai would not have told him, he would have never known anything about the history of Imams.
4) Kaka Akela has no idea whatsoever where Imam Tayyib is today. He has given no explaination about his immortality or his precence in this Universe.
5) Kaka Akela can never explain that why the prophet(PBUH) did not decide to go in to pardah. That way Islam would have remained intact as nobody would have ever questioned his final authority on anything and we would never have had so many sub-castes within Islam becos prophet(pbuh) gave us only one Islam and we divided it in so many castes and sub-castes.
6) Kaka Akela compares logic with history. I did not know that Fakhruddin Shahid is not a Dai, he was not a bheel and he was not bharmal. This is lack of historic knowledge. However, in no way this reduces the respect that I have for that great man and this is true for any other dawoodi bohra. But alas, Kaka Akela will never understand this fact.
After posting all this Kaka Akela expects that people should respect his level of intelligence and not call him a idiot..
Kakaji I am sorry. Maaf kardo yaar.. Bachche ki jaan logen kyaa???
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Also, Kakaji your belief that people who do not believe in Dai are not muslims renders almost 99.99% of muslims throughout the world as non-muslims or kaffirs... Please Kakaji don't do this zulum on poor muslims. Don't baraat them out of Islam...
Now you know why I asked you to answer the question on Baraat
Now you know why I asked you to answer the question on Baraat
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Kaka Akela
- Posts: 484
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
My dear child Areef:
Why don't you first learn to read then come hear insulting others.
Please tell me where did I say "If you don't love Dai you are not a muslim" ???
I said if you call yourself a dawoodi bohra then the love of Dai is a must.
Also I am not mixing logic with historical facts, you are. I gave you facts and your logic is whatever the facts may be he is a great man, which of course he is. But I suspect your father took you there by your pulled and twisted ear hoping for mojeza of a change in your heart but alas your heart is too rusted for any mojeza to work.
You twist my words to make yourself look smart but the harder you try the dumber you look.
Why don't you first learn to read then come hear insulting others.
Please tell me where did I say "If you don't love Dai you are not a muslim" ???
I said if you call yourself a dawoodi bohra then the love of Dai is a must.
Also I am not mixing logic with historical facts, you are. I gave you facts and your logic is whatever the facts may be he is a great man, which of course he is. But I suspect your father took you there by your pulled and twisted ear hoping for mojeza of a change in your heart but alas your heart is too rusted for any mojeza to work.
You twist my words to make yourself look smart but the harder you try the dumber you look.
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Smart a.as keep your mouth shut.
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like_minded
- Posts: 1260
- Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 4:01 am
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
This is why I had said in an ealier post that love of Dai is the touchstone of Dawoodi Bohra faith. If you don't have that then you question everything and nothing is holy or sacred.
Kaka Akela
There is a very thin line between faith and blind faith... I hope you grasp my point.
Imagine, If God were to demand love.. saying.. that only if a human loves me, I shall give him oxygen, sunlight, water etc, If he doesnt, then I shall deprive him... Funny isnt it??
If the dai is righteous, he should LOVE even those who do not bow to him, Infact, he shouldn't encourage even his followers to bow before him, thereby honouring their self-respect.
Knowing, how hollow the present dai and his corrupt organisation is... How can anyone love him?
Kaka Akela
There is a very thin line between faith and blind faith... I hope you grasp my point.
Imagine, If God were to demand love.. saying.. that only if a human loves me, I shall give him oxygen, sunlight, water etc, If he doesnt, then I shall deprive him... Funny isnt it??
If the dai is righteous, he should LOVE even those who do not bow to him, Infact, he shouldn't encourage even his followers to bow before him, thereby honouring their self-respect.
Knowing, how hollow the present dai and his corrupt organisation is... How can anyone love him?
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
one of moderderator is frustrated here more than anyone else... who is he/she??
I do not want to know this stupid thing.. it is just his/her chewtyappagiri
I do not want to know this stupid thing.. it is just his/her chewtyappagiri
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Qoute 1 by Kakaji
So Kakaji chill down, take a deep breath and read your posts again as you have forgotten what you had written earlier in this thread. This shows what kind of dumb followers the syedna has. No doubt he is thriving at their expense...
Qoute 2 by KakajiI also hate the corrupt and strong armed administrators under him but can not begin to call myself a Bohra while hating the Dai.
this is a digital world either on or off, similarly either you are a bohra or not a bohra it all depends on believing and loving the dai. you can hate any or all under him but not him,if you do then you are not a bohra period.
Doesn't this clearly say what Kakaji is trying to prove about bohras and Dai vis a vis other muslims. If Dai is the last link of Allah and if someone does not believe in the Dai obviously he does on believe in the first link i.e. Allah and that means he is not a muslim PERIOD.You would have never known about Imam Tayyib if you didn't believe in Dai. If you don't want to believe in Dai then your belief in Imam tayyib is not valid, then you would not have to believe each Imam before him. This goes on like a chain up to Allah. So that makes Dai the last link in the chain.
So Kakaji chill down, take a deep breath and read your posts again as you have forgotten what you had written earlier in this thread. This shows what kind of dumb followers the syedna has. No doubt he is thriving at their expense...
Re: Ziarat has become an expensive affair
Gulp,I do not want to know this stupid thing.. it is just his/her chewtyappagiri
Your presence on this site itself is a big chewtyappagiri