Question for Mr. Engineer

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Muddai
Posts: 223
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#31

Unread post by Muddai » Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:02 am

It appears that you misread my entire statement. I said,
foreign policy by definition is skewed, and meant to promote self-interest. I do not blame the US ar any country for doing what is in their self-interest, when the self-interest promotes freedom
. I did not say the US foreign policy neccessarily promotes freedoms overseas but it maintains freedom in the us (self-interest).

Name a country in the Universe that we know that does not aspire
to make the world and its resources accessible to its corporations.
If it serves the interests of the American ruling class to curb the rights and liberties of Americans it will bloody well do so - the most recent example being the Homeland Security Act.
You ignore the fact the in a democracy, that act can be voted down, but then I am sure you would have a problem with the 20-30-or 40% that may have opposed the Act that did not get what they wanted. Which perfect world do you live in ?

Had I realized earlier that you were a Utopian, I would not have carried on this discussion.

GodBless
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#32

Unread post by GodBless » Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:31 am

Khairan,

You are missing an important point as the other Utopians ( thank you Muddai).
If Islam can be indicted for the actions of its followers, than so too can democracy and capitalism
A Democracy does not have followers it has participants , and since we do not live in a pefect world, everyone isn't satisfied on each issue, but collectively it benefits the whole. Each countries foreign policy is designed to serve it's own interests. I can live with that as long the interest is that of it's constituents.

K. Abdallah (Jordan) with a Palestinian majority has sold out to the US, Saudi Arabia has a high per capita with over 30% unemployment and a high percentage of young me....I won't bother, you can figure out where I am going with this...

Khairan
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#33

Unread post by Khairan » Sat Dec 14, 2002 5:21 am

> A Democracy does not have followers it has participants

GodBless,

a fascinating distinction that I doubt would ever have occurred to me to make.
I would appreciate it if you would take the time to elaborate on what the implications of that particular distinction are. In your eyes, is it a matter of intellectual freedom?

I'm certainly not trying to establish that all capitalists are evil, or all Muslims are evil, or any such thing. My particular gripe here, as I said before, is that I see a double-standard regarding who is allowed to use what rhetoric (a double-standard which itself is motivated by self-interest), and I in part am wondering how this distinction you've drawn affects that issue of rhetorical permissibility.

Further: if for the sake of argument suicide bombing could be established as beneficial for the bombers' "constituents" (Palestinians, Muslims, take your pick), would you then as you said be able to live with it?

salaam

Humsafar
Posts: 2609
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#34

Unread post by Humsafar » Sat Dec 14, 2002 2:00 pm

Did I say things should be perfect? I thought we were trying to analyse why the Western and Islamic countries behave the way they do.
All countries act in self-interest. But the question is whose self-interest - of the rulers or the people?
Yes you can change laws in a democracy only when elected politicians represent the people not corporations. The freedoms and rights won in the West has been the result of peoples' struggles and sacrifices they were not given to them on a platter. If striving to create a just, peaceful world is Utopian then so be it. By the same token, fighting the Bohra establishment is also Utopian.
I agree with Khairan on the slective use double-standard rhetoric.

GodBless
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#35

Unread post by GodBless » Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:33 pm

Khairan,

I just deleted a lenghty response to your post. As I read your posts I agree with you more than you might think.

If you think I am demonizing Muslims, I am obviously not. There is enough blame to go around. However, I strongly support democracy and capitalism and I am against targeting of civilians by anybody anywhere. In a democracy these disagreements are common and vocal.

My original post on this topic remains unaswered
I am against the war in Iraq, I am against our biased foreign policy supporting Israel, I am against Israeli terrorism against Palestenians and vice versa.

Where is the outrage from Islamic leaders, both religious and political against the recent rash of Islamic terrorism killing civilians in the name of God ? If they want to wage a war against the US, then get your armies together and fight the fight. Why blow up people in their offices, night clubs or theaters ?

Peace.....

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#36

Unread post by anajmi » Sat Dec 14, 2002 6:48 pm

Godbless
It is good enough for me!!
Based on which fact ?
Let's just say it is good enough for me and the facts are classified cause I do not want to cause harm to my sources.
A dangerous statement unless there is a universal "right".
Totally agree with you on that one. Should we assume that American "right" is the universal "right" then?
It is time you guys also ask about more than a million dead during the Iraq/Iran war, Saddam gassing fellow Muslims, and his oppression of Kurds and Shiites. How many died, or is Muslim against Muslim a non-issue ? How many Muslim countries fought for Muslims in Bosnia ? More than a million Muslims were killed in Bangladesh thanks to Pakistan, muslims are gettting butchered in Africa by Muslims daily.

Your point is ? Who is "right" ?
You sound like Bal Thackeray, the best argument that he has against any allegation against him is "They did that so we did this. First ask them why they did that and then ask us why we did this".

GodBless
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#37

Unread post by GodBless » Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:57 pm

There is not univsersal right, it is a relative term.

Have never heard of Bal, and since your posts espouse the Muslims are victims doctrine, he must be speaking to you.

Cheers.

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Sun Dec 15, 2002 6:17 pm

Oh no, Muslims are not the victims, even though you site millions dead (even if at the hands of muslims) they are not the victims.

Millions of dead muslims do not make them victims. 3000 dead Americans make them victims.

Khairan
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#39

Unread post by Khairan » Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:05 am

GodBless,

> Where is the outrage from Islamic leaders, both religious and political

Where indeed? Muslim leaders in the US have spoken out against it, but you're right. I don't think there has been outrage, not publically and powerfully. Unfortunately, the Muslim Voice is dilute because it is so very splintered, and many of the more unified groups, such as the Bohras, opt for political quietism rather than activism. I can offer no good answers here...

> If they want to wage a war against the US, then get your armies together and fight the fight. Why blow up people in their offices, night clubs or theaters ?

I think the response to this is obvious. Clearly the military strength to "fight the fight" is lacking. It's the same story with guerillas throughout history - they can't win in open battle, so they attack from the shadows and hide again.
Attacking civil targets is a simple way of throwing a superior military power into societal upheaval, thereby potentially weakening its military might. Not an unreasonable strategy, depending on one's goals, though it is hardly ethical...
(ah! there go those value judgements again)

GodBless
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#40

Unread post by GodBless » Wed Dec 18, 2002 12:56 am

Khairan,
they can't win in open battle, so they attack from the shadows and hide again.
Yes the answer is obvious and I didn't expect you to answer it.

I was making a bigger point in that, if the Muslims intend to be effective in conventional warfare , and be a legitimate political body, they have to invest in secular education and science, just as the Israelis did. Raising masses to recite the Quran by rote is not going to make it. The classic example is that the Palestinians are worse off than they were when Israel was created, and they (Palestinians) had the higher moral ground. The US has pumped billions into Israel which they have used effectively, and the billions going into Palestine from the Arabs are going into personal bank accounts of the Palestinian leaders.

Vision and conviction, will get you there, or you will be coming out of caves and killing civilians forever until someone decides to nuke you.

This is not about who is right or wrong, but the reality of playing legitimately in the political arena, being a part of the world community, and "ligitimately" playing the games that are played.

...otherwise known as diplomacy....

Khairan
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#41

Unread post by Khairan » Wed Dec 18, 2002 8:35 am

> This is not about who is right or wrong, but the reality of playing legitimately in the political arena

Well put. I can't agree more...

Humsafar
Posts: 2609
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Question for Mr. Engineer

#42

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Dec 18, 2002 4:46 pm

I was making a bigger point in that, if the Muslims intend to be effective in conventional warfare , and be a legitimate political body, they have to invest in secular education and science, just as the Israelis did.
What you are suggesting is how things ought to be. (I could call you utopian, but assigning labels will not help us understand each other's points views.) In the real world Muslim rulers are not interested in imparting secular, scientific knowledge to the people. Educated masses will challenge their illegitimate power - and they are in no hurry to provoke their own demise. Muslim rulers have already invested billions in "conventional warfare" - with the West selling them more arms than they need. Pls do not confuse Islamic militants with their governments.

It is unseemly to compare the aid Israel gets (US$3billion or so a year from the US) to the measly millions that Palestinians get. True, Israel has made a good use of the money - especially building its formidable and ruthless army with which it wantonly and "illegitimately" kills people resisting its occupation and oppression . And I couldn't agree more that Arafat and his corrupt cronies have not only squandered millions of dollars but also the hopes of a first democratic nation in the Arab world.

What I take issue with is this facile attitude that finds fault with everything Islamic/East while holding the West and its conduct above board. What I'm trying to say in this thread, as a counterpoint, is that "democratic" western rulers and "despotic" Islamic rulers are in league - they have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo (a formal democracy in the West and varying degrees of despotism in the rest of the world). The militants who operate from caves are as much against their own rulers as against American presence/influence in their countries. The militants resort to violence out of desperation - because their own societies have closed all door of legitimate expression on them. Blame it on the despotic Islamic rulers, and the freedom loving West which supports them. See, how this is interconnected and ends up in a vicious cycle.

I agree, it's not the question of right or wrong. Rulers are not guided by moral values but by realpolitik. What drives them is power and control. Therefore, it's necessary to define the terms we use in this discussion. Earlier, I stressed that we need to define "self-interest" - whose self interest are we talking about when we say nations act in self-interest - the rulers or the people?

Similarly, what is meant by "playing legitimately"? To me the UN human rights charter, the Geneva convention, and other such international treaties and documents (which most countries are signatories to) lay down guidelines for nations to conduct themselves legitimately.

But look at the reality. It's the freedom-loving US and its client, "democratic" Israel who have violated these international conventions more often than any other countries. The US has led/supported/financed attacks in hundreds of countries in the last 50 years (not to mention the earlier period) - and not a single such action can come close to being called "playing legitimately"

Acts of resistance by Islamic militants and other groups are "illegitimate" but small potatoes compared to state sponsored terrorism of the US and other governments. The terrorism of the rulers is not only far more illegitimate but also far more lethal and terrible in scale and reach than any terrorist group can ever hope to achieve. This is not to say two wrongs make a right. But the onus to act responsibly and humanely is more with the rulers (democratic or not) than with individual "terrorists" who often act in reaction to "state terrorism".