Yes, Idd Ul FIKR mubarak(yes FIKR - worries, anxieties).. With Ramadhan around the corner.... not the fasting and ibadats part.. but the vajibaat,(pay before you pray)-all those salaams,nazraanas, sajdas and purjosh maatams, bayans.
Shehrullah Muazzam Mubarak or Ramadhan Mubarak to the non-Progressives Dawoodi Bohris has really become Idd Ul FIKR Mubarak - a month before they can even enjoy the festival of Id-ul-Fitr.
Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
M,
you say that fasting and ibadats are not a problem...but the other pillar of the faith...zakat ul'fitr and khums are (Salams and najwa are not required). It is funny that the irkans that require money is difficult for you, but the others are not. Show's us a little of your character and your faith in God.
you say that fasting and ibadats are not a problem...but the other pillar of the faith...zakat ul'fitr and khums are (Salams and najwa are not required). It is funny that the irkans that require money is difficult for you, but the others are not. Show's us a little of your character and your faith in God.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
That is the basis of the Munafeqeen... Money is their God. They dont believe in anyone else..
Money is their God.
And the pillars?? How can a Munafeqeen believe in any pillars.. they are not muslims..
Tell me MH, JINX,NA INSAF,, how many times do you pray namaz??
I really really doubt it...
I doutb that you even do fasts in shehrullah.
Money is their God.
And the pillars?? How can a Munafeqeen believe in any pillars.. they are not muslims..
Tell me MH, JINX,NA INSAF,, how many times do you pray namaz??
I really really doubt it...
I doutb that you even do fasts in shehrullah.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam:
Since when did the fitra, and khums become a pillar of Islam?
You said "the irkans that require money is difficult" because
(i) there is imposition by the Kotharis of how much one should pay. Zakat is imposed/assessed on income NOT on the requisite increase in one's net worth or wealth. The Toronto's Jamaat's website recently had displayed a list of all Jamaat members and their duly appointed time to go and see the Amil. Each person was alloted a couple of hours so that they could negotiate their vajibaats with the Amil. Why, the negotiations? Show us one other firka of Islam where this extortion sytem is used under the guise of collecting vaajibaats?
(ii) there is no accounting or accountability of the funds whatsoever. Although the Jamaats in the western countries are registered as charitable institutions, receipts are only given for the sabils and building funds. Why?
(iii) You indicate that najwaas and salaams are not collected during Ramadhan. You probably are again dreaming in technicolor. People who volunteer to do niyaaaz during the Holy Month are required to do specific amount of salaams to the Amil and his children, if any. During the Fazila Raats, the congregation is required to do salaams to the Amil and his children. You might argue that these are voluntary. If so, please ask the people who go for the raza for the niyaaz and the negotiation/torture they have to go through before they are given the raza. An dmay I add that they have to do salaam to the Amil when they go for raza. Double-jeopardy! Is this Islamic or moral?
These salaams are NOT reported by the Amils for tax purposes. I suppose this shows their character and faith in God to defraud the Government of the taxes - and NOT follow the dictum of Aqa Moula to comply with the laws of the country in which the Bohris reside.
You also say:
"Show's us a little of your character and your faith in God."
How many times you have been exposed as a liar a fabricator? Lying in your estimation, we suppose, is your version of character and faith in God, e'h!
As someone appropriately and quite rightly said about Mumin110 and now to you:
“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” (Gospel of John, the Pharisees)
Since when did the fitra, and khums become a pillar of Islam?
You said "the irkans that require money is difficult" because
(i) there is imposition by the Kotharis of how much one should pay. Zakat is imposed/assessed on income NOT on the requisite increase in one's net worth or wealth. The Toronto's Jamaat's website recently had displayed a list of all Jamaat members and their duly appointed time to go and see the Amil. Each person was alloted a couple of hours so that they could negotiate their vajibaats with the Amil. Why, the negotiations? Show us one other firka of Islam where this extortion sytem is used under the guise of collecting vaajibaats?
(ii) there is no accounting or accountability of the funds whatsoever. Although the Jamaats in the western countries are registered as charitable institutions, receipts are only given for the sabils and building funds. Why?
(iii) You indicate that najwaas and salaams are not collected during Ramadhan. You probably are again dreaming in technicolor. People who volunteer to do niyaaaz during the Holy Month are required to do specific amount of salaams to the Amil and his children, if any. During the Fazila Raats, the congregation is required to do salaams to the Amil and his children. You might argue that these are voluntary. If so, please ask the people who go for the raza for the niyaaz and the negotiation/torture they have to go through before they are given the raza. An dmay I add that they have to do salaam to the Amil when they go for raza. Double-jeopardy! Is this Islamic or moral?
These salaams are NOT reported by the Amils for tax purposes. I suppose this shows their character and faith in God to defraud the Government of the taxes - and NOT follow the dictum of Aqa Moula to comply with the laws of the country in which the Bohris reside.
You also say:
"Show's us a little of your character and your faith in God."
How many times you have been exposed as a liar a fabricator? Lying in your estimation, we suppose, is your version of character and faith in God, e'h!
As someone appropriately and quite rightly said about Mumin110 and now to you:
“He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” (Gospel of John, the Pharisees)
-
jahrastafari
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:01 am
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
If you don't want to pay wajebaat and give salaam to the amil saheb for the service he provides in leading the faithful, doing waslia, waez, misak, and other services etc during sherullah then don't come and don't pay.
Just stop dissing .....
Spin, and more spin .....
Just stop dissing .....
Where on there website does it say that ???? - i have just looked and other then a reference to bethak timings there is no list of jammat members and the time they have to goThe Toronto's Jamaat's website recently had displayed a list of all Jamaat members and their duly appointed time to go and see the Amil. Each person was alloted a couple of hours so that they could negotiate their vajibaats with the Amil.
Spin, and more spin .....
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
M,
Clarifications:
salam is where you hold the persons hand.
najwa is the what you give (such as money) to the person for something they have done or as a favor to them.
"Since when did the fitra, and khums become a pillar of Islam?"
--Since the Quran instituted it...since the Prophet required of the muslim...since the Imam required. How can you call yourself "mumineen" and not know this!!!
"(i) there is imposition by the Kotharis of how much one should pay. Zakat is imposed/assessed on income NOT on the requisite increase in one's net worth or wealth. The Toronto's Jamaat's website recently had displayed a list of all Jamaat members and their duly appointed time to go and see the Amil. Each person was alloted a couple of hours so that they could negotiate their vajibaats with the Amil. Why, the negotiations? "
---It is only negotiatiated if you don't want to report what you actually owe in zakat and khums. Most ask the amil how much they should give...not that I owe this much...mainly if they paid what the ACTUALLY owed it would be far greater.
Zakat is assessed on person's net value after expenses and NOT JUST INCOME. This includes stocks, precious metals and jewels, house, car(s), property and its income, etc.
"Show us one other firka of Islam where this extortion sytem is used under the guise of collecting vaajibaats?"
--this is the problem...they don't require it...even though shariah requires it...even by force. It is this loose holding of the Islam that the majority muslims practice that has put them in the state they are in.
(ii) there is no accounting or accountability of the funds whatsoever. Although the Jamaats in the western countries are registered as charitable institutions, receipts are only given for the sabils and building funds. Why?
---Because it is not the responsibility of the gov't nor of the followers in managing those funds...they are the property of the Imam and his representative...IT IS ALSO NOT THE PROPERTY OF THE AMIL OR INSTITUTION. This is why receipts are given only for sabil and building funds. These funds are the responsibility of the jamat and institution.
(iii) You indicate that najwaas and salaams are not collected during Ramadhan.
--I did not say this...I said they are not required. Many people give salams with najwas..many don't give najwa...many don't do salam. I hope you know the difference.
"People who volunteer to do niyaaaz during the Holy Month are required to do specific amount of salaams to the Amil and his children, if any. During the Fazila Raats, the congregation is required to do salaams to the Amil and his children.
---This is false. You are not REQUIRED to give najwa of a specific amount.
"You might argue that these are voluntary. If so, please ask the people who go for the raza for the niyaaz and the negotiation/torture they have to go through before they are given the raza."
---I have myself done niyaaz often and asked raza...the issue of najwa was not even brought up. Maybe it the people you asked to go that were the problem.
"How many times you have been exposed as a liar a fabricator? Lying in your estimation, we suppose, is your version of character and faith in God, e'h!"
--I have yet to be PROVEN IN ANY ACCOUNT as a liar. I have been called it many times...yet when asked to substiated where I lied...I have yet to get a reply. You call me that again...yet have not proven where I lied.
Clarifications:
salam is where you hold the persons hand.
najwa is the what you give (such as money) to the person for something they have done or as a favor to them.
"Since when did the fitra, and khums become a pillar of Islam?"
--Since the Quran instituted it...since the Prophet required of the muslim...since the Imam required. How can you call yourself "mumineen" and not know this!!!
"(i) there is imposition by the Kotharis of how much one should pay. Zakat is imposed/assessed on income NOT on the requisite increase in one's net worth or wealth. The Toronto's Jamaat's website recently had displayed a list of all Jamaat members and their duly appointed time to go and see the Amil. Each person was alloted a couple of hours so that they could negotiate their vajibaats with the Amil. Why, the negotiations? "
---It is only negotiatiated if you don't want to report what you actually owe in zakat and khums. Most ask the amil how much they should give...not that I owe this much...mainly if they paid what the ACTUALLY owed it would be far greater.
Zakat is assessed on person's net value after expenses and NOT JUST INCOME. This includes stocks, precious metals and jewels, house, car(s), property and its income, etc.
"Show us one other firka of Islam where this extortion sytem is used under the guise of collecting vaajibaats?"
--this is the problem...they don't require it...even though shariah requires it...even by force. It is this loose holding of the Islam that the majority muslims practice that has put them in the state they are in.
(ii) there is no accounting or accountability of the funds whatsoever. Although the Jamaats in the western countries are registered as charitable institutions, receipts are only given for the sabils and building funds. Why?
---Because it is not the responsibility of the gov't nor of the followers in managing those funds...they are the property of the Imam and his representative...IT IS ALSO NOT THE PROPERTY OF THE AMIL OR INSTITUTION. This is why receipts are given only for sabil and building funds. These funds are the responsibility of the jamat and institution.
(iii) You indicate that najwaas and salaams are not collected during Ramadhan.
--I did not say this...I said they are not required. Many people give salams with najwas..many don't give najwa...many don't do salam. I hope you know the difference.
"People who volunteer to do niyaaaz during the Holy Month are required to do specific amount of salaams to the Amil and his children, if any. During the Fazila Raats, the congregation is required to do salaams to the Amil and his children.
---This is false. You are not REQUIRED to give najwa of a specific amount.
"You might argue that these are voluntary. If so, please ask the people who go for the raza for the niyaaz and the negotiation/torture they have to go through before they are given the raza."
---I have myself done niyaaz often and asked raza...the issue of najwa was not even brought up. Maybe it the people you asked to go that were the problem.
"How many times you have been exposed as a liar a fabricator? Lying in your estimation, we suppose, is your version of character and faith in God, e'h!"
--I have yet to be PROVEN IN ANY ACCOUNT as a liar. I have been called it many times...yet when asked to substiated where I lied...I have yet to get a reply. You call me that again...yet have not proven where I lied.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Each Amil is paid a salary and other fringe benefits for the services rendered by him. Salaams and najwaas are extras.
The list has now presumably been deleted (because the vajibaats have been collected) but if you wish to confirm with any of the Jamaat members or the Amil himself, they will confirm that there was a lengthy list of about 450 people for appointments in September and part of October.
The list has now presumably been deleted (because the vajibaats have been collected) but if you wish to confirm with any of the Jamaat members or the Amil himself, they will confirm that there was a lengthy list of about 450 people for appointments in September and part of October.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
In reply to qiyam:
We know what Salaam is. Salaam means "peace" by holding a person's hand. As if you did not know, Salaam in Bohri Kothari lingo is not only holding hands but also a euphemism for passing on the demanded money to the Kothari as you hold the Kothari's hands. Don't act stupid! You have done it too may times now.
Pillar of Islam:
Where I come from (Bohris Madressas), I was taught that there are five pillars in Islam and with Bohras there are seven - and fitra and Khums are NOT the pillars. What you describe are NOT pillars.
Imposition of Zakat:
The net income (income less expenses) again has no direct bearing on Zakat. It only forms part of your net worth if there is an excess of gross income over expenses.
Zakat is never negotiated. There is no reporting or accounting (accounting by the payer himself to assess the zakat himself). Bohras seems to be the only firqa where reporting or accounting is demanded. It is on honesty or trust basis - a self-assessment system if you like. If you disagree, show us the basis in the Holy Quran or Sharia. In fact majority of the Muslims distribute their own share of Zakat to the NEEDY NOT the GREEDY.
You quixotically say:
"even though shariah requires it...even by force."
Force, whatever happened to the verse in the Holy Quran which among other things says: " ..there is no compulsion in the Deen (La Ikraha fiddini....)
Najwas and Salaams:
What favours? As indicated before the Amil is paid a salary and all the generous fringe benefits by the local Jamaat. Najwaas and salaams are extras.
We have personal experiences where people have been given a number of envelopes by the Amil or their side-kicks indicating clearly amounts to be inserted in those envelopes by way of salaams or najwaas - and no questions or arguments if you want your raza.
Najwaas or Salaams with the Bohris mean only one thing - extortion of money from the gullible by duress or false pretences.
Accounting or Accountabilty:
You say: "Because it is not the responsibility of the gov't nor of the followers in managing those funds...they are the property of the Imam and his representative...IT IS ALSO NOT THE PROPERTY OF THE AMIL OR INSTITUTION. This is why receipts are given only for sabil and building funds. These funds are the responsibility of the jamat and institution."
This is the problem as we indicated before. Try telling the Government authorities that the "they are the property of the Imam.." - who happens to be in seclusion. Whatever happened to Aqa Moula's dictate that the Bohris should comply with the laws of the countries they reside in -i.e don't fudge the dawaat's books to defraud the Government for not reporting fairly and accurately.
Liar:
We have been checking under this website's archives and you can too!. How many times have you said you made "a mistake" and invariably corrected yourself after having been challenged of your so called lies or embellisments. Its still a lie when you get got with it and then apologize or sheepishly correct yourself.
We know what Salaam is. Salaam means "peace" by holding a person's hand. As if you did not know, Salaam in Bohri Kothari lingo is not only holding hands but also a euphemism for passing on the demanded money to the Kothari as you hold the Kothari's hands. Don't act stupid! You have done it too may times now.
Pillar of Islam:
Where I come from (Bohris Madressas), I was taught that there are five pillars in Islam and with Bohras there are seven - and fitra and Khums are NOT the pillars. What you describe are NOT pillars.
Imposition of Zakat:
The net income (income less expenses) again has no direct bearing on Zakat. It only forms part of your net worth if there is an excess of gross income over expenses.
Zakat is never negotiated. There is no reporting or accounting (accounting by the payer himself to assess the zakat himself). Bohras seems to be the only firqa where reporting or accounting is demanded. It is on honesty or trust basis - a self-assessment system if you like. If you disagree, show us the basis in the Holy Quran or Sharia. In fact majority of the Muslims distribute their own share of Zakat to the NEEDY NOT the GREEDY.
You quixotically say:
"even though shariah requires it...even by force."
Force, whatever happened to the verse in the Holy Quran which among other things says: " ..there is no compulsion in the Deen (La Ikraha fiddini....)
Najwas and Salaams:
What favours? As indicated before the Amil is paid a salary and all the generous fringe benefits by the local Jamaat. Najwaas and salaams are extras.
We have personal experiences where people have been given a number of envelopes by the Amil or their side-kicks indicating clearly amounts to be inserted in those envelopes by way of salaams or najwaas - and no questions or arguments if you want your raza.
Najwaas or Salaams with the Bohris mean only one thing - extortion of money from the gullible by duress or false pretences.
Accounting or Accountabilty:
You say: "Because it is not the responsibility of the gov't nor of the followers in managing those funds...they are the property of the Imam and his representative...IT IS ALSO NOT THE PROPERTY OF THE AMIL OR INSTITUTION. This is why receipts are given only for sabil and building funds. These funds are the responsibility of the jamat and institution."
This is the problem as we indicated before. Try telling the Government authorities that the "they are the property of the Imam.." - who happens to be in seclusion. Whatever happened to Aqa Moula's dictate that the Bohris should comply with the laws of the countries they reside in -i.e don't fudge the dawaat's books to defraud the Government for not reporting fairly and accurately.
Liar:
We have been checking under this website's archives and you can too!. How many times have you said you made "a mistake" and invariably corrected yourself after having been challenged of your so called lies or embellisments. Its still a lie when you get got with it and then apologize or sheepishly correct yourself.
-
MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam _ As usual you avoided giving answer to the problem of Amil NOT reporting his income to the tax authorities & that is a crime acc to your aqa moula-What is your answer Or you are going to twist around as usual!
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam you still amuse me:
"People who volunteer to do niyaaaz during the Holy Month are required to do specific amount of salaams to the Amil and his children, if any. During the Fazila Raats, the congregation is required to do salaams to the Amil and his children.
---This is false. You are not REQUIRED to give najwa of a specific amount.
Man get up and smell the coffee or shall I say smell the "biryani"
"People who volunteer to do niyaaaz during the Holy Month are required to do specific amount of salaams to the Amil and his children, if any. During the Fazila Raats, the congregation is required to do salaams to the Amil and his children.
---This is false. You are not REQUIRED to give najwa of a specific amount.
Man get up and smell the coffee or shall I say smell the "biryani"
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Mumineen,
It is obvious you didn't listen to what you were taught..the bohra madarasa.
Salam means peace is done on many various occassion...majority of time not giving najwa. I'm sure when you did salam to your family and friend for pehli raat...you didn't give najwa to everyone (hopefully you did to your parents).
Zakat is a pillar of islam. Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!
Regarding zakat...Rasullah and the Imams sent persons to collect zakat and khums to various region. The work out what each person owed in zakat. It is stupid to compare what bohras do versus others on the bases that the others do and don't do it. It is recorded in the tradition...and it wasn't self assessment. Even in the time of the sunni caliphate..it was self assessment. It NOW self assessment in these communities...because they made it so!
Secondly, it is negiotate ONLY when the person doesn't give an actual account...which is what a many of bohras do, especially those in business. This is the reason it is this way.
"Force, whatever happened to the verse in the Holy Quran which among other things says: " ..there is no compulsion in the Deen"
---Again, this accuse of the ignorant and hypocrite for not doing anything. This statement only applied to the person entering the faith. Once you are a muslim...all the tenets apply.
Regarding your problem with najwa:
It is not defrauding the government in giving gifts. It is also not defrauding in accepting gifts. It is also not required to record these gifts.
Gift tax must not exceed the maximum annual exclusion amount ($10,000 for 2001).
No gifts are even suppose to be recorded unless it exceeds this.
Regarding me being a liar:
First you should learn what a liar is...one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY. I am human and have made mistakes. If I made a mistake and have been proven so... I gladly apologize..AND AS YOU NOTED I POSTED MY CORRECTIONS. This doesn't make one a liar.
It is obvious you didn't listen to what you were taught..the bohra madarasa.
Salam means peace is done on many various occassion...majority of time not giving najwa. I'm sure when you did salam to your family and friend for pehli raat...you didn't give najwa to everyone (hopefully you did to your parents).
Zakat is a pillar of islam. Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!
Regarding zakat...Rasullah and the Imams sent persons to collect zakat and khums to various region. The work out what each person owed in zakat. It is stupid to compare what bohras do versus others on the bases that the others do and don't do it. It is recorded in the tradition...and it wasn't self assessment. Even in the time of the sunni caliphate..it was self assessment. It NOW self assessment in these communities...because they made it so!
Secondly, it is negiotate ONLY when the person doesn't give an actual account...which is what a many of bohras do, especially those in business. This is the reason it is this way.
"Force, whatever happened to the verse in the Holy Quran which among other things says: " ..there is no compulsion in the Deen"
---Again, this accuse of the ignorant and hypocrite for not doing anything. This statement only applied to the person entering the faith. Once you are a muslim...all the tenets apply.
Regarding your problem with najwa:
It is not defrauding the government in giving gifts. It is also not defrauding in accepting gifts. It is also not required to record these gifts.
Gift tax must not exceed the maximum annual exclusion amount ($10,000 for 2001).
No gifts are even suppose to be recorded unless it exceeds this.
Regarding me being a liar:
First you should learn what a liar is...one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY. I am human and have made mistakes. If I made a mistake and have been proven so... I gladly apologize..AND AS YOU NOTED I POSTED MY CORRECTIONS. This doesn't make one a liar.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam alluded:
"It is obvious you didn't listen to what you were taught..the bohra madarasa. Zakat is a pillar of islam. Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!"
Response: Show us where in the Quran, Sharia or Hadith it says that “Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT (the PILAAR)and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!” And that it should be paid to the Imam or his representative. You must admit that Kothar is NOT AL-AMILEEN: people appointed by an Islamic Government to collect Zakaat
RECIPIENTS OF ZAKAAT:
The recipients of Zakaat, according to Qur'an are as follows:
"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer (the funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to truth); for those in bondage and in debt; and for the wayfarer: (Thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." (Qur'an 9:60)
1. FUQARA: people who are poor and who possess more than their basic needs but do not possess wealth equal to Nisaab.
2. MASAKEEN: people who are destitute and extremely needy to the extent they are forced to beg for their daily food rations.
3. AL-AMILEEN: people appointed by an Islamic Government to collect Zakaat.
4. MU-ALLAFATUL-QULUB: persons who have recently accepted Islam and are in need of basic necessities who would benefit from encouragement by Muslims which would help strengthen their faith.
5. AR-RIQAAB: slaves who are permitted to work for remuneration and have an agreement from their masters to purchase their freedom on payment of fixed amounts.
6. AL-GHAARIMEEN: persons who have a debt and do not possess any other wealth or goods with which they could repay that which they owe. It is conditional that this debt was not created for any un-Islamic purpose.
7. FI-SABILILLAH: persons who have to carry out an obligatory deed which has become obligatory on them and subsequently (due to loss of wealth) are unable to complete that obligation.
8. IBN-US-SABEEL: persons who are travelers and during the course of their journey do not possess basic necessities, though they are well to do at home. They could be given Zakaat in order to fulfill travel needs to return home.
Qiyam alluded:
"Salam means peace is done on many various occassion...majority of time not giving najwa. I'm sure when you did salam to your family and friend for pehli raat...you didn't give najwa to everyone (hopefully you did to your parents)."
Response: If you care to read (not selectively, as you usually do intentionally) we mentioned in our prior post the definition of Salaam according to Kothar – not the normal hand kissing by family members during auspicious occasions.
Qiyam alluded:
"Regarding zakat...Rasullah and the Imams sent persons to collect zakat and khums to various region. The work out what each person owed in zakat. It is stupid to compare what bohras do versus others on the bases that the others do and don't do it. It is recorded in the tradition...and it wasn't self assessment. Even in the time of the sunni caliphate..it was self assessment. It NOW self assessment in these communities...because they made it so!"
Response: Kothar is NOT an Islamic Government. Rasulullah, Caliphates and Fatemid Imams had an Islamic Government.
Qiyam alluded:
"Secondly, it is negotiate ONLY when the person doesn't give an actual account...which is what a many of bohras do, especially those in business. This is the reason it is this way."
Response: Where does it say so of this absurd dictum. – Please do not confuse the word negotiate, with extort or obtaining by force or duress.
Qiyam alluded:
" ---Again, this accuse of the ignorant and hypocrite for not doing anything. This statement only applied to the person entering the faith. Once you are a muslim...all the tenets apply.
Response: What’s your point? You again, purposely, as usual do not make sense – as you want to obfuscate/garble to conceal and defend the indefensible.
Qiyam alluded:
"Regarding your problem with najwa:
It is not defrauding the government in giving gifts. It is also not defrauding in accepting gifts. It is also not required to record these gifts.
Gift tax must not exceed the maximum annual exclusion amount ($10,000 for 2001).
No gifts are even suppose to be recorded unless it exceeds this.
Response: Again you are purposely confusing GIFTS with charitable donations. Please give us the various statutory legislative support for your defence about the exemption - USA; UK and Candaian legislation or regulations.
Howevere, if it is NOT to defraud, why did the Kothari Bohris in U.K. and Canada got caught defrauding their registered charities. The trustees (all of them Kothari Shehzadaas) in UK were ordered to reimburse the charity the appropriated/embezzled funds. In Canada the Bohris were reassessed as they were given charitable donation receipts by the Jamaats for their personal expenses – purchasing personal cemetery lots,by laundering funds to the Jamaats.
Qiyam alluded:
Regarding me being a liar:
"First you should learn what a liar is...one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY. I am human
and have made mistakes. If I made a mistake and have been proven so... I gladly apologize..AND AS YOU NOTED I POSTED MY CORRECTIONS. This doesn't make one a liar."
Hurray, Bravo and thank goodness you now admit that you are a human liar. This happens in the Cours of Law all the time. Everytime they get caught with their pathological lies, they always attribute this to either a mistake or a misunderstanding and plead for mercy.
Nice try, but again no cigars!
"It is obvious you didn't listen to what you were taught..the bohra madarasa. Zakat is a pillar of islam. Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!"
Response: Show us where in the Quran, Sharia or Hadith it says that “Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT (the PILAAR)and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!” And that it should be paid to the Imam or his representative. You must admit that Kothar is NOT AL-AMILEEN: people appointed by an Islamic Government to collect Zakaat
RECIPIENTS OF ZAKAAT:
The recipients of Zakaat, according to Qur'an are as follows:
"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer (the funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to truth); for those in bondage and in debt; and for the wayfarer: (Thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." (Qur'an 9:60)
1. FUQARA: people who are poor and who possess more than their basic needs but do not possess wealth equal to Nisaab.
2. MASAKEEN: people who are destitute and extremely needy to the extent they are forced to beg for their daily food rations.
3. AL-AMILEEN: people appointed by an Islamic Government to collect Zakaat.
4. MU-ALLAFATUL-QULUB: persons who have recently accepted Islam and are in need of basic necessities who would benefit from encouragement by Muslims which would help strengthen their faith.
5. AR-RIQAAB: slaves who are permitted to work for remuneration and have an agreement from their masters to purchase their freedom on payment of fixed amounts.
6. AL-GHAARIMEEN: persons who have a debt and do not possess any other wealth or goods with which they could repay that which they owe. It is conditional that this debt was not created for any un-Islamic purpose.
7. FI-SABILILLAH: persons who have to carry out an obligatory deed which has become obligatory on them and subsequently (due to loss of wealth) are unable to complete that obligation.
8. IBN-US-SABEEL: persons who are travelers and during the course of their journey do not possess basic necessities, though they are well to do at home. They could be given Zakaat in order to fulfill travel needs to return home.
Qiyam alluded:
"Salam means peace is done on many various occassion...majority of time not giving najwa. I'm sure when you did salam to your family and friend for pehli raat...you didn't give najwa to everyone (hopefully you did to your parents)."
Response: If you care to read (not selectively, as you usually do intentionally) we mentioned in our prior post the definition of Salaam according to Kothar – not the normal hand kissing by family members during auspicious occasions.
Qiyam alluded:
"Regarding zakat...Rasullah and the Imams sent persons to collect zakat and khums to various region. The work out what each person owed in zakat. It is stupid to compare what bohras do versus others on the bases that the others do and don't do it. It is recorded in the tradition...and it wasn't self assessment. Even in the time of the sunni caliphate..it was self assessment. It NOW self assessment in these communities...because they made it so!"
Response: Kothar is NOT an Islamic Government. Rasulullah, Caliphates and Fatemid Imams had an Islamic Government.
Qiyam alluded:
"Secondly, it is negotiate ONLY when the person doesn't give an actual account...which is what a many of bohras do, especially those in business. This is the reason it is this way."
Response: Where does it say so of this absurd dictum. – Please do not confuse the word negotiate, with extort or obtaining by force or duress.
Qiyam alluded:
" ---Again, this accuse of the ignorant and hypocrite for not doing anything. This statement only applied to the person entering the faith. Once you are a muslim...all the tenets apply.
Response: What’s your point? You again, purposely, as usual do not make sense – as you want to obfuscate/garble to conceal and defend the indefensible.
Qiyam alluded:
"Regarding your problem with najwa:
It is not defrauding the government in giving gifts. It is also not defrauding in accepting gifts. It is also not required to record these gifts.
Gift tax must not exceed the maximum annual exclusion amount ($10,000 for 2001).
No gifts are even suppose to be recorded unless it exceeds this.
Response: Again you are purposely confusing GIFTS with charitable donations. Please give us the various statutory legislative support for your defence about the exemption - USA; UK and Candaian legislation or regulations.
Howevere, if it is NOT to defraud, why did the Kothari Bohris in U.K. and Canada got caught defrauding their registered charities. The trustees (all of them Kothari Shehzadaas) in UK were ordered to reimburse the charity the appropriated/embezzled funds. In Canada the Bohris were reassessed as they were given charitable donation receipts by the Jamaats for their personal expenses – purchasing personal cemetery lots,by laundering funds to the Jamaats.
Qiyam alluded:
Regarding me being a liar:
"First you should learn what a liar is...one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY. I am human
and have made mistakes. If I made a mistake and have been proven so... I gladly apologize..AND AS YOU NOTED I POSTED MY CORRECTIONS. This doesn't make one a liar."
Hurray, Bravo and thank goodness you now admit that you are a human liar. This happens in the Cours of Law all the time. Everytime they get caught with their pathological lies, they always attribute this to either a mistake or a misunderstanding and plead for mercy.
Nice try, but again no cigars!
-
MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
We are waiting for your response Br Qiyam- As they say you are digging bigger hole each time you try to explain with your ignorant ideas! Yes gifts are taxable in USA -So when Syedna gets this big Najwas ,does he declare it to the tax authorities as he claims to ask us to follow the rules of the country you are in!I forgot," He is infalliable!"
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam,
Salam means peace is done on many various occassion...
Please provide one documented example where a Salam is pre-scheduled, i.e on a calendar.
Gift tax must not exceed the maximum annual exclusion amount ($10,000 for 2001).
Based on the lawsuits where the Kothar had to pay penalties, you are only entitled to make this statement if you can prove that all gifts ARE recorded unless it exceeds this. I personally know people that do not even get receipts for $10,000+ .
Regarding me being a liar: one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY
That means that you are either igrnorant or a liar; unless of course you can document where $10,000+ donations are documented.
Salam means peace is done on many various occassion...
Please provide one documented example where a Salam is pre-scheduled, i.e on a calendar.
Gift tax must not exceed the maximum annual exclusion amount ($10,000 for 2001).
Based on the lawsuits where the Kothar had to pay penalties, you are only entitled to make this statement if you can prove that all gifts ARE recorded unless it exceeds this. I personally know people that do not even get receipts for $10,000+ .
Regarding me being a liar: one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY
That means that you are either igrnorant or a liar; unless of course you can document where $10,000+ donations are documented.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Mumineen,
"Show us where in the Quran, Sharia or Hadith it says that “Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT (the PILAAR)and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!”
---Firstly, this has been discussed before on many thread...look for yourself. Secondly, read surah Baqara. Thirdly, all three were collected by the amil and given to the Prophet and Imams(recorded hadith).
"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer (the funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to truth); for those in bondage and in debt; and for the wayfarer: (Thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." (Qur'an 9:60)
--Firstly, these are the criterian for distribution of zakat directed by Allah to be done...BY THE PROPHET/IMAM. And according to Ismaili hadiths of the Imam...when in ghaybat...was the role of the Dai.
"If you care to read (not selectively, as you usually do intentionally) we mentioned in our prior post the definition of Salaam according to Kothar – not the normal hand kissing by family members during auspicious occasions."
---You listed salam according to YOU..not the anyone else. YOU are not the Kothar..nor the Dai. As I pointed out..the normal kissing of the hand is the sunnah of the Prophet and is what is known as salam! If you give najwa (gift) it is to you. If you think any different...then maybe you should learn a bit more of our traditions first!
"Kothar is NOT an Islamic Government. Rasulullah, Caliphates and Fatemid Imams had an Islamic Government."
--you again failed to read my statement fully. Imam Ahmed who was in hiding in Salmiyah had his Dais collecting the zakat and khums. Imam Jafar Sadiq..under the rule of the Abbasid caliphate..collected it the same way. Neither Imams had a "islamic government". They govern the followers of them.
"Where does it say so of this absurd dictum. – Please do not confuse the word negotiate, with extort or obtaining by force or duress."
---The dictum arrived because of business men who didn't want to pay there share in full....you know...people LIKE YOU who complain about what is zakat and what isn't. And yes, please don't confuse the too...this is not the mafia.
"What’s your point? You again, purposely, as usual do not make sense – as you want to obfuscate/garble to conceal and defend the indefensible."
--The point is what I wrote. You are required to practice the tenets of faith after reciting the kalima. The ayat you quoted applies ONLY to people who have NOT accepted the Islam as a faith. It means you cannot force a person to be a muslim. Once a muslim you MUST adhere to the tenets. If you don't it is of your own consequence with Allah...but the rights of others (especially the Imam) must still be fulfilled. If you have a problem with this...don't be a shiah. Sabil, which is the right of the local jamat upon you for saying YOU are part of this jamat, must be fulfilled. If you have a problem with this don't be part of a jamat.
"Again you are purposely confusing GIFTS with charitable donations. Please give us the various statutory legislative support for your defence about the exemption - USA; UK and Candaian legislation or regulations."
---Sorry but it is YOU who doesn't know what Najwa is and is confusing it as a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT! When I did salam with najwa to my parent on pehli raat...I wasn't planning to deduct it as a charitable donation! It is stupid to think that way. Najwa is a a gift. They are things you do for barakat...not for your bottom line.
"Howevere, if it is NOT to defraud, why did the Kothari Bohris in U.K. and Canada got caught defrauding their registered charities. The trustees (all of them Kothari Shehzadaas) in UK were ordered to reimburse the charity the appropriated/embezzled funds. In Canada the Bohris were reassessed as they were given charitable donation receipts by the Jamaats for their personal expenses – purchasing personal cemetery lots,by laundering funds to the Jamaats."
---Regarding this...I am not sure of the specific of what money was refered to...I am not part of these jamats...regarding the other junk you threw in..who know if it true.
"Hurray, Bravo and thank goodness you now admit that you are a human liar. This happens in the Cours of Law all the time. Everytime they get caught with their pathological lies, they always attribute this to either a mistake or a misunderstanding and plead for mercy.
Nice try, but again no cigars!"
--Again you have a real difficulty with english. A liar is one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY. The incident where I corrected myself where I referenced or translated something incorrectly. I didn't continue to say I was correct..which is what a liar does. That is that difference. I cannot unfortunately say the same of many reformist on this board.
"Show us where in the Quran, Sharia or Hadith it says that “Zakat ul'mal, Zakat ul'Fitr, and Khums all are part of ZAKAT (the PILAAR)and are all due to the Imam or his represenative the Dai!”
---Firstly, this has been discussed before on many thread...look for yourself. Secondly, read surah Baqara. Thirdly, all three were collected by the amil and given to the Prophet and Imams(recorded hadith).
"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer (the funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to truth); for those in bondage and in debt; and for the wayfarer: (Thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." (Qur'an 9:60)
--Firstly, these are the criterian for distribution of zakat directed by Allah to be done...BY THE PROPHET/IMAM. And according to Ismaili hadiths of the Imam...when in ghaybat...was the role of the Dai.
"If you care to read (not selectively, as you usually do intentionally) we mentioned in our prior post the definition of Salaam according to Kothar – not the normal hand kissing by family members during auspicious occasions."
---You listed salam according to YOU..not the anyone else. YOU are not the Kothar..nor the Dai. As I pointed out..the normal kissing of the hand is the sunnah of the Prophet and is what is known as salam! If you give najwa (gift) it is to you. If you think any different...then maybe you should learn a bit more of our traditions first!
"Kothar is NOT an Islamic Government. Rasulullah, Caliphates and Fatemid Imams had an Islamic Government."
--you again failed to read my statement fully. Imam Ahmed who was in hiding in Salmiyah had his Dais collecting the zakat and khums. Imam Jafar Sadiq..under the rule of the Abbasid caliphate..collected it the same way. Neither Imams had a "islamic government". They govern the followers of them.
"Where does it say so of this absurd dictum. – Please do not confuse the word negotiate, with extort or obtaining by force or duress."
---The dictum arrived because of business men who didn't want to pay there share in full....you know...people LIKE YOU who complain about what is zakat and what isn't. And yes, please don't confuse the too...this is not the mafia.
"What’s your point? You again, purposely, as usual do not make sense – as you want to obfuscate/garble to conceal and defend the indefensible."
--The point is what I wrote. You are required to practice the tenets of faith after reciting the kalima. The ayat you quoted applies ONLY to people who have NOT accepted the Islam as a faith. It means you cannot force a person to be a muslim. Once a muslim you MUST adhere to the tenets. If you don't it is of your own consequence with Allah...but the rights of others (especially the Imam) must still be fulfilled. If you have a problem with this...don't be a shiah. Sabil, which is the right of the local jamat upon you for saying YOU are part of this jamat, must be fulfilled. If you have a problem with this don't be part of a jamat.
"Again you are purposely confusing GIFTS with charitable donations. Please give us the various statutory legislative support for your defence about the exemption - USA; UK and Candaian legislation or regulations."
---Sorry but it is YOU who doesn't know what Najwa is and is confusing it as a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT! When I did salam with najwa to my parent on pehli raat...I wasn't planning to deduct it as a charitable donation! It is stupid to think that way. Najwa is a a gift. They are things you do for barakat...not for your bottom line.
"Howevere, if it is NOT to defraud, why did the Kothari Bohris in U.K. and Canada got caught defrauding their registered charities. The trustees (all of them Kothari Shehzadaas) in UK were ordered to reimburse the charity the appropriated/embezzled funds. In Canada the Bohris were reassessed as they were given charitable donation receipts by the Jamaats for their personal expenses – purchasing personal cemetery lots,by laundering funds to the Jamaats."
---Regarding this...I am not sure of the specific of what money was refered to...I am not part of these jamats...regarding the other junk you threw in..who know if it true.
"Hurray, Bravo and thank goodness you now admit that you are a human liar. This happens in the Cours of Law all the time. Everytime they get caught with their pathological lies, they always attribute this to either a mistake or a misunderstanding and plead for mercy.
Nice try, but again no cigars!"
--Again you have a real difficulty with english. A liar is one tells falsehood KNOWINGLY. The incident where I corrected myself where I referenced or translated something incorrectly. I didn't continue to say I was correct..which is what a liar does. That is that difference. I cannot unfortunately say the same of many reformist on this board.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
There he goes again, Qiyam. He just doesn't get it. Once again he has distorted facts to mask his delusion of grandeur. Doesn't he realize that he has lost his integrity by continually twisting facts? - time and again.. Is this man for real?
We have adequately refuted his all so-called facts before. However, the following will also respond to his latest doubt re. Kotharis defrauding the registered charities.
Our previous post:
"However, if it is NOT to defraud, why did the Kothari Bohris in U.K. and Canada got caught defrauding their registered charities. The trustees (all of them Kothari Shehzadaas) in UK were ordered to reimburse the charity the appropriated/embezzled funds.
Qiyam queried:
---Regarding this...I am not sure of the specific of what money was refered to...I am not part of these jamats...regarding the other junk you threw in. who know if it true.
Our response: From the U.K. Government website
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/inv ... /dawat.asp
Dawat-e-Hadiyah Trust (United Kingdom)
Registered Charity No. 294807
Introduction:
This report is a statement of the results of an inquiry under Section 8 of the Charities Act 1993 ("the Act").
Dawat-e-Hadiyah Trust (United Kingdom) ("the Charity") was registered as a charity on 2nd July 1986. Its stated objects are "to carry out such purposes for the relief of poverty and the advancement of education or religion or otherwise for the benefit of mankind anywhere in the world as the Dai al-Mutlaq shall from time to time determine." His Holiness Dr. Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin, is the fifty-second incumbent in the office of the Dai al-Mutlaq. The Dai al-Mutlaq is the supreme head of Dawat-e-Hadiyah who promotes and fosters the interests of the Dawoodi Bohra Community. The Charity's turnover is in the region of £2M.
Issues:
In March 2001, the Commission became concerned that the charity had failed to submit the Charity's annual returns and accounts since 1995 despite a number of attempts by the Commission to obtain these documents.
The 1996 annual accounts were submitted in March 2001 and the 1997 annual accounts in June 2001. Review of these raised concerns about the large number of payments to persons related to the sole trustee, the Dai al-Mutlaq, and the Nominees. The Nominees are appointed by the Dai al-Mutlaq to administer the affairs of the Charity as de facto trustees. Of the six Nominees four are the sons of the Dai al-Mutlaq. As a result the Commission instituted an inquiry under section 8 of the Act on the 4th July 2001 with the aims to: obtain up to date and accurate accounts and annual returns; determine the Nominees reasons for not complying with their statutory obligations with regard to the submission of annual returns and accounts; and · investigate the connected personal payments.
Findings:
A series of payments had been made by the Charity to persons related and connected to the sole trustee, the Dai al-Mutlaq and the Nominees.
Whilst the Charity provided full details and explanations for all connected personal payments, the Commission considered that restitution was necessary because the payments had been made in breach of trust. This was because, in determining whether the payments should be made, the personal interests of the Nominees were in conflict with their fiduciary duty as trustees of the Charity.
Outcomes:
The Nominees have given the Commission full co-operation throughout the course of the Inquiry. The Nominees accepted that restitution was required and without delay paid back to the Charity some £365,000, which represented the vast majority of the sum requested. The Nominees made a case that the remaining payments were made in good faith in furtherance of the objects of the Charity and that it was therefore unnecessary to make restitution in respect of these payments. The Commission established that these payments did not conflict with the Nominees fiduciary duties and in view of this, restitution of the remaining amount was not required.
The accounts and annual returns for 1998, 1999 and 2000 were submitted in May 2002. The Nominees explained that accounts had been delayed due to concentrating all of their efforts on the extensive building project of the Northolt Mosque complex.
Commission officers scrutinized the accounts for 1998, 1999 and 2000 on receipt to ensure that they comply with the Statement of Recommended Practice on Accounting and Reporting by Charities (the 1995 SORP). The Nominees agreed that in future the audited accounts of the Charity would be submitted to the Commission on an annual basis in accordance with the statutory requirements.
The Inquiry was closed on the 5th September 2002.
Wider Lessons:
Trustees of charities with an annual income or expenditure of over £10,000 are required, under Part VI of the Charities Act 1993, to submit their accounts, an annual report and an annual return to the Commission within ten months of the end of their financial year. Trustees of charities with an income of less than £10,000 are obliged to produce accounts within this time scale, but are not required to send them to the Commission.
Persons who, without reasonable excuse, persistently fail to comply with the requirements of the Charities Act 1993 to supply accounts and annual returns may be guilty of a criminal offence and may on conviction be fined by the courts.
The Commission will investigate any causes for concern that are identified during its monitoring of a charity's annual return and accounts.
A charity is entitled to the objective judgement of its trustees, exercised solely in the interests of the charity, and unaffected by the prospect of any personal advantage to themselves. The law requires charity trustees not to place themselves in a position where their duty to the charity might conflict with their own interests, that is, where they may have an incentive to neglect their duties as trustees. Moreover, a charity trustee is not permitted to profit from that position (unless he or she is expressly authorised to do so). A trustee who benefits from a position of trust without the necessary authority is liable to repay the benefit, which he or she has received.
If a charity wishes to pay one of its trustees, the organisation needs to establish whether or not the charity's governing document contains a power to do so. If the governing document does not contain a power to pay trustees, the trustees must first approach the Commission for authority.
Our previous post:
In Canada the Bohris were reassessed as they were given charitable donation receipts by the Jamaats for their personal expenses – purchasing personal cemetery lots, by laundering funds to the Jamaats.7
Qiyam queried:
---Regarding this...I am not sure of the specific of what money was refered to...I am not part of these jamats...regarding the other junk you threw in. who know if it true.
Our response:
Ask any member of Anjuman-e- Najmi of Toronto or other Canadian cities. Or better ask the Canadian tax authorities In writing as follows:
Registration Number of Anjuman-e- Najmi 118787365RR0001
Charities Directorate
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency
Ottawa ON K1A 0L5
Qiyam's incessant stubbornness to prove himself right (by hook or by crook) and histrionics demonstrate how mentally challenged he is. Try hard as he does to hide his origins from the wrong side of the tracks, we suppose, and to rid himself of childhood handicaps, the more hysterical and child like he gets. He is to be pitied.
We have adequately refuted his all so-called facts before. However, the following will also respond to his latest doubt re. Kotharis defrauding the registered charities.
Our previous post:
"However, if it is NOT to defraud, why did the Kothari Bohris in U.K. and Canada got caught defrauding their registered charities. The trustees (all of them Kothari Shehzadaas) in UK were ordered to reimburse the charity the appropriated/embezzled funds.
Qiyam queried:
---Regarding this...I am not sure of the specific of what money was refered to...I am not part of these jamats...regarding the other junk you threw in. who know if it true.
Our response: From the U.K. Government website
http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/inv ... /dawat.asp
Dawat-e-Hadiyah Trust (United Kingdom)
Registered Charity No. 294807
Introduction:
This report is a statement of the results of an inquiry under Section 8 of the Charities Act 1993 ("the Act").
Dawat-e-Hadiyah Trust (United Kingdom) ("the Charity") was registered as a charity on 2nd July 1986. Its stated objects are "to carry out such purposes for the relief of poverty and the advancement of education or religion or otherwise for the benefit of mankind anywhere in the world as the Dai al-Mutlaq shall from time to time determine." His Holiness Dr. Sayedna Mohammed Burhanuddin, is the fifty-second incumbent in the office of the Dai al-Mutlaq. The Dai al-Mutlaq is the supreme head of Dawat-e-Hadiyah who promotes and fosters the interests of the Dawoodi Bohra Community. The Charity's turnover is in the region of £2M.
Issues:
In March 2001, the Commission became concerned that the charity had failed to submit the Charity's annual returns and accounts since 1995 despite a number of attempts by the Commission to obtain these documents.
The 1996 annual accounts were submitted in March 2001 and the 1997 annual accounts in June 2001. Review of these raised concerns about the large number of payments to persons related to the sole trustee, the Dai al-Mutlaq, and the Nominees. The Nominees are appointed by the Dai al-Mutlaq to administer the affairs of the Charity as de facto trustees. Of the six Nominees four are the sons of the Dai al-Mutlaq. As a result the Commission instituted an inquiry under section 8 of the Act on the 4th July 2001 with the aims to: obtain up to date and accurate accounts and annual returns; determine the Nominees reasons for not complying with their statutory obligations with regard to the submission of annual returns and accounts; and · investigate the connected personal payments.
Findings:
A series of payments had been made by the Charity to persons related and connected to the sole trustee, the Dai al-Mutlaq and the Nominees.
Whilst the Charity provided full details and explanations for all connected personal payments, the Commission considered that restitution was necessary because the payments had been made in breach of trust. This was because, in determining whether the payments should be made, the personal interests of the Nominees were in conflict with their fiduciary duty as trustees of the Charity.
Outcomes:
The Nominees have given the Commission full co-operation throughout the course of the Inquiry. The Nominees accepted that restitution was required and without delay paid back to the Charity some £365,000, which represented the vast majority of the sum requested. The Nominees made a case that the remaining payments were made in good faith in furtherance of the objects of the Charity and that it was therefore unnecessary to make restitution in respect of these payments. The Commission established that these payments did not conflict with the Nominees fiduciary duties and in view of this, restitution of the remaining amount was not required.
The accounts and annual returns for 1998, 1999 and 2000 were submitted in May 2002. The Nominees explained that accounts had been delayed due to concentrating all of their efforts on the extensive building project of the Northolt Mosque complex.
Commission officers scrutinized the accounts for 1998, 1999 and 2000 on receipt to ensure that they comply with the Statement of Recommended Practice on Accounting and Reporting by Charities (the 1995 SORP). The Nominees agreed that in future the audited accounts of the Charity would be submitted to the Commission on an annual basis in accordance with the statutory requirements.
The Inquiry was closed on the 5th September 2002.
Wider Lessons:
Trustees of charities with an annual income or expenditure of over £10,000 are required, under Part VI of the Charities Act 1993, to submit their accounts, an annual report and an annual return to the Commission within ten months of the end of their financial year. Trustees of charities with an income of less than £10,000 are obliged to produce accounts within this time scale, but are not required to send them to the Commission.
Persons who, without reasonable excuse, persistently fail to comply with the requirements of the Charities Act 1993 to supply accounts and annual returns may be guilty of a criminal offence and may on conviction be fined by the courts.
The Commission will investigate any causes for concern that are identified during its monitoring of a charity's annual return and accounts.
A charity is entitled to the objective judgement of its trustees, exercised solely in the interests of the charity, and unaffected by the prospect of any personal advantage to themselves. The law requires charity trustees not to place themselves in a position where their duty to the charity might conflict with their own interests, that is, where they may have an incentive to neglect their duties as trustees. Moreover, a charity trustee is not permitted to profit from that position (unless he or she is expressly authorised to do so). A trustee who benefits from a position of trust without the necessary authority is liable to repay the benefit, which he or she has received.
If a charity wishes to pay one of its trustees, the organisation needs to establish whether or not the charity's governing document contains a power to do so. If the governing document does not contain a power to pay trustees, the trustees must first approach the Commission for authority.
Our previous post:
In Canada the Bohris were reassessed as they were given charitable donation receipts by the Jamaats for their personal expenses – purchasing personal cemetery lots, by laundering funds to the Jamaats.7
Qiyam queried:
---Regarding this...I am not sure of the specific of what money was refered to...I am not part of these jamats...regarding the other junk you threw in. who know if it true.
Our response:
Ask any member of Anjuman-e- Najmi of Toronto or other Canadian cities. Or better ask the Canadian tax authorities In writing as follows:
Registration Number of Anjuman-e- Najmi 118787365RR0001
Charities Directorate
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency
Ottawa ON K1A 0L5
Qiyam's incessant stubbornness to prove himself right (by hook or by crook) and histrionics demonstrate how mentally challenged he is. Try hard as he does to hide his origins from the wrong side of the tracks, we suppose, and to rid himself of childhood handicaps, the more hysterical and child like he gets. He is to be pitied.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam,
Najwa is a a gift. They are things you do for barakat...not for your bottom line.
It is disingenuous, hypocrtical, and illegal to register as non-profit and account for donations as Barakat requests. Gifts over a certain amount are taxable. In the US there is a deduction for non-profit and religious organizations but none for Barakat Only Organizations.
I doubt that you realize the legal ramifications of your statement a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT! I wasn't planning to deduct it as a charitable donation!
Again, this is illegal in the US. If it is not a charitable donation, then why is the Jamaat reaping the tax benefits ? Since they are, why shouldn't the individual giving it take the same tax benefit ? If the Jamaat registers as a Corporation (which it is and should be listed on NASDAQ under the symbol "DAI") I wouldn;t have a problem with that. If your faith allows for sincerity, then I would welcome an effort on your part to convert the non-profit, charitable classification to a Corporation. Then you can continue to chatise people for taking deductions, because the Jamaat isn't.
a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT!
Please remember your statement above as this will come back to haunt you in future discussions.
Incidentally, how will this non-profit organization account for revenues collected by selling prayer spaces ? Barakat, donation, or profit ?
Najwa is a a gift. They are things you do for barakat...not for your bottom line.
It is disingenuous, hypocrtical, and illegal to register as non-profit and account for donations as Barakat requests. Gifts over a certain amount are taxable. In the US there is a deduction for non-profit and religious organizations but none for Barakat Only Organizations.
I doubt that you realize the legal ramifications of your statement a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT! I wasn't planning to deduct it as a charitable donation!
Again, this is illegal in the US. If it is not a charitable donation, then why is the Jamaat reaping the tax benefits ? Since they are, why shouldn't the individual giving it take the same tax benefit ? If the Jamaat registers as a Corporation (which it is and should be listed on NASDAQ under the symbol "DAI") I wouldn;t have a problem with that. If your faith allows for sincerity, then I would welcome an effort on your part to convert the non-profit, charitable classification to a Corporation. Then you can continue to chatise people for taking deductions, because the Jamaat isn't.
a charitable donation...WHICH IT IS NOT!
Please remember your statement above as this will come back to haunt you in future discussions.
Incidentally, how will this non-profit organization account for revenues collected by selling prayer spaces ? Barakat, donation, or profit ?
-
MOHD HUSSAIN
- Posts: 443
- Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Br Muddai: You started a good discussion & let us take it to the other thread- Since this has been bothering me & quite a few friends of mine for a long time- As far as I know Dawat_e -Hadiyah has been regd as a charitable organization & members are encouraged to take deductions on their tax return -I believe the different Jamats too- If you look at their by laws it is solely controlled by daiAl mutlaq & it does not give it's annual income & expense reports & neither it contributes to any significant charities- So it is a tax sham - Please notify IRS & FBI in your area- IRS toll free # is--1-800-829-0433 - Dawat-E -Hadiyah trust has been moved to california from Houston-
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Mumineen,
"We have adequately refuted his all so-called facts before"
--You've refuted squat so far. You made alot of unproven, unhistoric, and unfactual statement...but none have refuted!
Let me give you a tidbit from this thread:
You wrote as your refutation of the position of the Dawat:
"Kothar is NOT an Islamic Government. Rasulullah, Caliphates and Fatemid Imams had an Islamic Government."
I wrote:
--you again failed to read my statement fully. Imam Ahmed who was in hiding in Salmiyah had his Dais collecting the zakat and khums. Imam Jafar Sadiq..under the rule of the Abbasid caliphate..collected it the same way. Neither Imams had a "islamic government". They govern the followers of them.
You refuted squat! You just made an unfactual and uncomplete statement.
The same regarding zakat:
You wrote:
"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer (the funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to truth); for those in bondage and in debt; and for the wayfarer: (Thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." (Qur'an 9:60)
I wrote:
--Firstly, these are the criterian for distribution of zakat directed by Allah to be done...BY THE PROPHET/IMAM. And according to Ismaili hadiths of the Imam...when in ghaybat...was the role of the Dai.
Again what did you refuted...you mention the criteria for distribution...but forgot to mention the rightful distributor...which was the issue to begin with.
This is typical from you...half truths with no historical reference!
"We have adequately refuted his all so-called facts before"
--You've refuted squat so far. You made alot of unproven, unhistoric, and unfactual statement...but none have refuted!
Let me give you a tidbit from this thread:
You wrote as your refutation of the position of the Dawat:
"Kothar is NOT an Islamic Government. Rasulullah, Caliphates and Fatemid Imams had an Islamic Government."
I wrote:
--you again failed to read my statement fully. Imam Ahmed who was in hiding in Salmiyah had his Dais collecting the zakat and khums. Imam Jafar Sadiq..under the rule of the Abbasid caliphate..collected it the same way. Neither Imams had a "islamic government". They govern the followers of them.
You refuted squat! You just made an unfactual and uncomplete statement.
The same regarding zakat:
You wrote:
"Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer (the funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to truth); for those in bondage and in debt; and for the wayfarer: (Thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom." (Qur'an 9:60)
I wrote:
--Firstly, these are the criterian for distribution of zakat directed by Allah to be done...BY THE PROPHET/IMAM. And according to Ismaili hadiths of the Imam...when in ghaybat...was the role of the Dai.
Again what did you refuted...you mention the criteria for distribution...but forgot to mention the rightful distributor...which was the issue to begin with.
This is typical from you...half truths with no historical reference!
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Is Daiz-Zaman, members of his family and his administration Muslim and follow Quran? If yes then why Zakat and other religious taxes not obligatory on them? Today there are more than 1000 members in Sayedna Saheb's family, more than 3700 Amils and hundreds of other staff members. If the filthy rich Sayedna Saheb, his family members and his staff also take out Zakat can you imagine the amount available for community's welfare? But they believe only in collecting the Zakat etc. from others without fulfilling their Islamic duty.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam:
1. About the collection of Zakaat:
The Holy Quran say about the recepients NOT distribution of Zakaat: one of them being:
AL-AMILEEN: people appointed by an Islamic Government to collect Zakaat.
In a non-Islamic state it is up to the individual Muslim to be conscientious enough to voluntarily fulfil this duty to Allah and to his community, and it is up to Muslims to remind (not extort)another Muslim of this obligation. The Imams you referred to did NOT force or exort Zakaat from the followers; they merely facilitated the distribution of the Zakat to the needy and NOT the greedy.
2. Why are you selectively silent about the rebuttal we had on the embezzlement/appropriation of U.K. Jamaat's Baitul Maal by the Shehzaadas and the report from the U.K. Government we attached with our previous post.? Truth hurts. e'h!
It just proves our previous opinion:
Qiyam's incessant stubbornness to prove himself right (by hook or by crook) and histrionics demonstrate how mentally challenged he is. Try hard as he does to hide his origins from the wrong side of the tracks, we suppose, and to rid himself of childhood handicaps, the more hysterical and child like he gets. He is to be pitied.
1. About the collection of Zakaat:
The Holy Quran say about the recepients NOT distribution of Zakaat: one of them being:
AL-AMILEEN: people appointed by an Islamic Government to collect Zakaat.
In a non-Islamic state it is up to the individual Muslim to be conscientious enough to voluntarily fulfil this duty to Allah and to his community, and it is up to Muslims to remind (not extort)another Muslim of this obligation. The Imams you referred to did NOT force or exort Zakaat from the followers; they merely facilitated the distribution of the Zakat to the needy and NOT the greedy.
2. Why are you selectively silent about the rebuttal we had on the embezzlement/appropriation of U.K. Jamaat's Baitul Maal by the Shehzaadas and the report from the U.K. Government we attached with our previous post.? Truth hurts. e'h!
It just proves our previous opinion:
Qiyam's incessant stubbornness to prove himself right (by hook or by crook) and histrionics demonstrate how mentally challenged he is. Try hard as he does to hide his origins from the wrong side of the tracks, we suppose, and to rid himself of childhood handicaps, the more hysterical and child like he gets. He is to be pitied.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
S. Insaf,
Do you know that they don't give zakat?
Mumineen,
Your criterion for the means of distribution in #1 is self created. We as bohras have a leader who is representative of the Imam. It is recorde in Qadi Numan's Iftetah al'Dawa as well as Uyun al'Akbar of Sayedna Idris Saheb that those Imams that weren't the caliphas still collected zakat and khums through the efforts of the Dais. This is why I stated that Imam Jafar Sadiq and Imam Ahmed al'Mastur did so.
"The Imams you referred to did NOT force or exort Zakaat from the followers; they merely facilitated the distribution of the Zakat to the needy and NOT the greedy."
--there is absolutely no evidence to support your claim. It is recorded in the Sirat al'Jawshab that Imam Ahmad had collected so much wealth in Salmiyah that Imam Muiz's wealth paled in comparsion.
Regarding point #2:
--I did not respond because I was hoping you could figure out your mistake...no luck apparently. As noted the investigation in the UK was for the Dawat-e-Hadiyah TRUST, a listed charitable organization in UK, who had not filed statement for several years. These statements are required per the rules of UK. After an audit of the trust, moneies were refunded to the trust, and thereafter each statement was forwarded to the Trust Commission. The Trust is now in good standing with the Commission...with all statements accounted for.
Note the conclusion:
"8. The accounts and annual returns for 1998, 1999 and 2000 were submitted in May 2002.The Nominees explained that accounts had been delayed due to concentrating all of their efforts on the extensive building project of the Northolt Mosque complex.
9. Commission officers scrutinized the accounts for 1998, 1999 and 2000 on receipt to ensure that they comply with the Statement of Recommended Practice on Accounting and Reporting by Charities (the 1995 SORP). The Nominees agreed that in future the audited accounts of the Charity would be submitted to the Commission on an annual basis in accordance with the statutory requirements.
10. The Inquiry was closed on the 5th September 2002."
General Note...Dawat-e-Hadiyah and Dawat-e-Hadiyah Trust are two separate entities!
Do you know that they don't give zakat?
Mumineen,
Your criterion for the means of distribution in #1 is self created. We as bohras have a leader who is representative of the Imam. It is recorde in Qadi Numan's Iftetah al'Dawa as well as Uyun al'Akbar of Sayedna Idris Saheb that those Imams that weren't the caliphas still collected zakat and khums through the efforts of the Dais. This is why I stated that Imam Jafar Sadiq and Imam Ahmed al'Mastur did so.
"The Imams you referred to did NOT force or exort Zakaat from the followers; they merely facilitated the distribution of the Zakat to the needy and NOT the greedy."
--there is absolutely no evidence to support your claim. It is recorded in the Sirat al'Jawshab that Imam Ahmad had collected so much wealth in Salmiyah that Imam Muiz's wealth paled in comparsion.
Regarding point #2:
--I did not respond because I was hoping you could figure out your mistake...no luck apparently. As noted the investigation in the UK was for the Dawat-e-Hadiyah TRUST, a listed charitable organization in UK, who had not filed statement for several years. These statements are required per the rules of UK. After an audit of the trust, moneies were refunded to the trust, and thereafter each statement was forwarded to the Trust Commission. The Trust is now in good standing with the Commission...with all statements accounted for.
Note the conclusion:
"8. The accounts and annual returns for 1998, 1999 and 2000 were submitted in May 2002.The Nominees explained that accounts had been delayed due to concentrating all of their efforts on the extensive building project of the Northolt Mosque complex.
9. Commission officers scrutinized the accounts for 1998, 1999 and 2000 on receipt to ensure that they comply with the Statement of Recommended Practice on Accounting and Reporting by Charities (the 1995 SORP). The Nominees agreed that in future the audited accounts of the Charity would be submitted to the Commission on an annual basis in accordance with the statutory requirements.
10. The Inquiry was closed on the 5th September 2002."
General Note...Dawat-e-Hadiyah and Dawat-e-Hadiyah Trust are two separate entities!
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam:
First , to be politically correct but blunt: “ Go forth and multiply!!!
1. Zakaat: The Holy Quran, says:
009.060
Yusufali:Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of God; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by God, and God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Pickthall:The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.
You indicate:
“there is absolutely no evidence to support your claim. It is recorded in the Sirat al'Jawshab that Imam Ahmad had collected so much wealth in Salmiyah that Imam Muiz's wealth paled in comparison”
Are you trying to insuniate that these divine Imams did NOT distribute the Zakaat to the needy but hoarded the moneys as wealth?
2. Embezzlements and Appropriations of Baitul Maal:
This your modus-operandi. When you get caught with lying you defended as a mistake and apologize.
When the trust in U.K. got caught and they were forced to refund the embezzle funds. Qiam implies and intentionally misinterpret this refund as a mistake.
Dawat –e-Hadiya or the trust to any Bohri are personal holding Companies of Kothar. Whether a trust, a personal entity or a charitable institution defrauds doe not make “ a squat” of a difference. It is still a fraud. The word “trust” connotes in simplistic term “wakaf”. Trust of Baitul-Maal.
May I make an analogy from that famous Shakespearean verse about a rose:
“ sh…t” by any other name stinks all the same” - whether it be a personal entity, a trust or a charitable institution.
To reiterate it just proves our previous opinion:
Qiyam's incessant stubbornness to prove himself right (by hook or by crook) and histrionics demonstrate how mentally challenged he is. Try hard as he does to hide his origins from the wrong side of the tracks, we suppose, and to rid himself of childhood handicaps, the more hysterical and child like he gets. He is to be pitied.
First , to be politically correct but blunt: “ Go forth and multiply!!!
1. Zakaat: The Holy Quran, says:
009.060
Yusufali:Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of God; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by God, and God is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Pickthall:The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarer; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.
You indicate:
“there is absolutely no evidence to support your claim. It is recorded in the Sirat al'Jawshab that Imam Ahmad had collected so much wealth in Salmiyah that Imam Muiz's wealth paled in comparison”
Are you trying to insuniate that these divine Imams did NOT distribute the Zakaat to the needy but hoarded the moneys as wealth?
2. Embezzlements and Appropriations of Baitul Maal:
This your modus-operandi. When you get caught with lying you defended as a mistake and apologize.
When the trust in U.K. got caught and they were forced to refund the embezzle funds. Qiam implies and intentionally misinterpret this refund as a mistake.
Dawat –e-Hadiya or the trust to any Bohri are personal holding Companies of Kothar. Whether a trust, a personal entity or a charitable institution defrauds doe not make “ a squat” of a difference. It is still a fraud. The word “trust” connotes in simplistic term “wakaf”. Trust of Baitul-Maal.
May I make an analogy from that famous Shakespearean verse about a rose:
“ sh…t” by any other name stinks all the same” - whether it be a personal entity, a trust or a charitable institution.
To reiterate it just proves our previous opinion:
Qiyam's incessant stubbornness to prove himself right (by hook or by crook) and histrionics demonstrate how mentally challenged he is. Try hard as he does to hide his origins from the wrong side of the tracks, we suppose, and to rid himself of childhood handicaps, the more hysterical and child like he gets. He is to be pitied.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Mumineen,
"Are you trying to insuniate that these divine Imams did NOT distribute the Zakaat to the needy but hoarded the moneys as wealth?"
---The point I am trying to make is that the Imam decides when and how the zakat and khums is or isn't distributed...bases on the criteria of the Quran. It is not my place to tell the Imam! So to use words like "hoarded" should NOT be used.
"When the trust in U.K. got caught and they were forced to refund the embezzle funds. Qiam implies and intentionally misinterpret this refund as a mistake."
--Regarding the trust...I didn't state anything of my opinion in that portion of my post. I reiterated what the Commission reported...and then quoted the paragraph of the report. A REPORT POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE. Next time..try reading the post two or thre times first.
"Are you trying to insuniate that these divine Imams did NOT distribute the Zakaat to the needy but hoarded the moneys as wealth?"
---The point I am trying to make is that the Imam decides when and how the zakat and khums is or isn't distributed...bases on the criteria of the Quran. It is not my place to tell the Imam! So to use words like "hoarded" should NOT be used.
"When the trust in U.K. got caught and they were forced to refund the embezzle funds. Qiam implies and intentionally misinterpret this refund as a mistake."
--Regarding the trust...I didn't state anything of my opinion in that portion of my post. I reiterated what the Commission reported...and then quoted the paragraph of the report. A REPORT POSTED ON THIS WEBSITE. Next time..try reading the post two or thre times first.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam:
1. Zakaat:
You were the one who implied "hoarding" when you said:
"It is recorded in the Sirat al'Jawshab that Imam Ahmad had collected so much wealth in Salmiyah that Imam Muiz's wealth paled in comparsion."
2. Embezzlement:
Don't chew fat as usual to mask the issue. The point is that the Commission reported that there was a malfeasance of funds and the culprits were ordered to reimburse.
Your futile defences as posted below by you are a mere hogwash and a red herring.
"8. The accounts and annual returns for 1998, 1999 and 2000 were submitted in May 2002.The Nominees explained that accounts had been delayed due to concentrating all of their efforts on the extensive building project of the Northolt Mosque complex.
9. Commission officers scrutinized the accounts for 1998, 1999 and 2000 on receipt to ensure that they comply with the Statement of Recommended Practice on Accounting and Reporting by Charities (the 1995 SORP). The Nominees agreed that in future the audited accounts of the Charity would be submitted to the Commission on an annual basis in accordance with the statutory requirements
1. Zakaat:
You were the one who implied "hoarding" when you said:
"It is recorded in the Sirat al'Jawshab that Imam Ahmad had collected so much wealth in Salmiyah that Imam Muiz's wealth paled in comparsion."
2. Embezzlement:
Don't chew fat as usual to mask the issue. The point is that the Commission reported that there was a malfeasance of funds and the culprits were ordered to reimburse.
Your futile defences as posted below by you are a mere hogwash and a red herring.
"8. The accounts and annual returns for 1998, 1999 and 2000 were submitted in May 2002.The Nominees explained that accounts had been delayed due to concentrating all of their efforts on the extensive building project of the Northolt Mosque complex.
9. Commission officers scrutinized the accounts for 1998, 1999 and 2000 on receipt to ensure that they comply with the Statement of Recommended Practice on Accounting and Reporting by Charities (the 1995 SORP). The Nominees agreed that in future the audited accounts of the Charity would be submitted to the Commission on an annual basis in accordance with the statutory requirements
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Mumineen,
What I quoted was an example of the Imam choosing how and when distrubution is to be done...AND NOT ME OR YOU DICTATING TO THEM. I would not call it hoarding, like you DID, because it is not my responsibility to tell the Imam or Dai what to do with it...it is their's alone. I have no right to comment...neither do you. This applies rightly to the Dai as well!
"Your futile defences as posted below by you are a mere hogwash and a red herring."
--what I quoted and you requoted was the conclusion of the Commission as reported by THIS SITE. The words are the same you originally quoted. So if you consider the conclusion of the Commission as hogwash and a red herring...then complain to the Commission! You know more about the investigation then them...RIGHT?
What I quoted was an example of the Imam choosing how and when distrubution is to be done...AND NOT ME OR YOU DICTATING TO THEM. I would not call it hoarding, like you DID, because it is not my responsibility to tell the Imam or Dai what to do with it...it is their's alone. I have no right to comment...neither do you. This applies rightly to the Dai as well!
"Your futile defences as posted below by you are a mere hogwash and a red herring."
--what I quoted and you requoted was the conclusion of the Commission as reported by THIS SITE. The words are the same you originally quoted. So if you consider the conclusion of the Commission as hogwash and a red herring...then complain to the Commission! You know more about the investigation then them...RIGHT?
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
The belief that one cannot question what a fallible Dai does with the money he collects belittles the Quran because it is the Quran that explains where the money should go.
On the inquiry commission conclusion - this conclusion was only arrived at AFTER the organization had PAID BACK 365,000 pounds that had been transferred to Sayedna's sons AND provided full accounts from 1998 to 2000:
"Whilst the Charity provided full details and explanations for all connected person payments, the Commission considered that <B>restitution was necessary because the payments had been made in breach of trust. This was because, in determining whether the payments should be made, the personal interests of the Nominees were in conflict with their fiduciary duty as trustees of the Charity." </B>
On the inquiry commission conclusion - this conclusion was only arrived at AFTER the organization had PAID BACK 365,000 pounds that had been transferred to Sayedna's sons AND provided full accounts from 1998 to 2000:
"Whilst the Charity provided full details and explanations for all connected person payments, the Commission considered that <B>restitution was necessary because the payments had been made in breach of trust. This was because, in determining whether the payments should be made, the personal interests of the Nominees were in conflict with their fiduciary duty as trustees of the Charity." </B>
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Thanks Muslim:
You responded to Qiyam's futile arguments (for me), quite succintly and precisely. I couldn't have done better meeself!
You responded to Qiyam's futile arguments (for me), quite succintly and precisely. I couldn't have done better meeself!
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Muslim:
The belief that one cannot question what a fallible Dai does with the money he collects belittles the Quran because it is the Quran that explains where the money should go.
--Quran dictates who these money should and can be used for. The Prophet and Imams dictated that the money is collected by them..and they are the authorities to use the moneies per the Quran. The Dai has been given the amanat of performing the duties of the Imam in satr.
On the inquiry commission conclusion - this conclusion was only arrived at AFTER the organization had PAID BACK 365,000 pounds that had been transferred to Sayedna's sons AND provided full accounts from 1998 to 2000:
"This was because, in determining whether the payments should be made, the personal interests of the Nominees were in conflict with their fiduciary duty as trustees of the Charity."
--this is correct and I no where denied this. The point you didn't clarify was that there was essentially an audit done and the trustees made payments to members of their families from the trust fund, which is not allowed because they are trustees. It was NOT stated that the payments were not valid, but that the trustees weren't allowed to make those payments, because the persons were related to them. This is proven by the facts that other payments by the trustees were allowed.
The belief that one cannot question what a fallible Dai does with the money he collects belittles the Quran because it is the Quran that explains where the money should go.
--Quran dictates who these money should and can be used for. The Prophet and Imams dictated that the money is collected by them..and they are the authorities to use the moneies per the Quran. The Dai has been given the amanat of performing the duties of the Imam in satr.
On the inquiry commission conclusion - this conclusion was only arrived at AFTER the organization had PAID BACK 365,000 pounds that had been transferred to Sayedna's sons AND provided full accounts from 1998 to 2000:
"This was because, in determining whether the payments should be made, the personal interests of the Nominees were in conflict with their fiduciary duty as trustees of the Charity."
--this is correct and I no where denied this. The point you didn't clarify was that there was essentially an audit done and the trustees made payments to members of their families from the trust fund, which is not allowed because they are trustees. It was NOT stated that the payments were not valid, but that the trustees weren't allowed to make those payments, because the persons were related to them. This is proven by the facts that other payments by the trustees were allowed.
Re: Id-ul-FIKR (yes FIKR) Mubarak to the Kothari extremsit B
Qiyam:
"and the trustees made payments to members of their families from the trust fund, which is not allowed because they are trustees. It was NOT stated that the payments were not valid, but that the trustees weren't allowed to make those payments, because the persons were related to them"
Case rested!
Embezzlement: Breach of trust by appropriating funds for the benefits of the family.
If the payments were NOT valid they were invalid -unlawful, illegal and fraudulent. They got caught and were forced to reimburse the funds.
If it walks like a duck, quack like a duck it is a duck - fraud, however you dissect it!
"and the trustees made payments to members of their families from the trust fund, which is not allowed because they are trustees. It was NOT stated that the payments were not valid, but that the trustees weren't allowed to make those payments, because the persons were related to them"
Case rested!
Embezzlement: Breach of trust by appropriating funds for the benefits of the family.
If the payments were NOT valid they were invalid -unlawful, illegal and fraudulent. They got caught and were forced to reimburse the funds.
If it walks like a duck, quack like a duck it is a duck - fraud, however you dissect it!