y do v all "qaza" our rozas

[banda e khuda]

namaz is farz, roza is farz. as for farz namaz it ends as soon as v say our salam, after that what ever v recite its all suplimentary, it is not even sunna or sunat, except tasbhe-e- fatima. it take almost 5 minutes from the time v say salam till v open our roza, so is it right to qaza our farz roza for non farz duas????????? any comments

[porus]

2:187 clearly states that "Complete your fast until night." The same ayat states that fast should start when the dawn appears distinct from night.

So fast starts when the first sign of light appears, that is at dawn, before the sun rises above the horizon. And night starts when all light is gone, that is, some time after the sun sets below the horizon.

However, magharib starts when the sun has just set. Since there will still be time for the nightfall, it is better to wait until after Magharib Fard, and sometime after that, to break the fast. Bohra practice of reciting other dua after fard gives them sufficient time to wait for the nightfall.

There are ahadith which tell different stories but we have to reject them if they are not in line with 2:187.

Practice of eating after adhaan and before iqama of Magharib fard may not meet the criteria set out by 2:187.

[porus]

Correction:

2:187 clearly states that "Complete your fast until night." The same ayat states that fast should start when the day appears distinct from night.

[SBM]

Br. Porous
In Jafferi Fiqh, they wait almost 30 minutes after Maghrib to break their fast, so the question is who is right? Sunni Fiqh who believes that Fast can be broken right after Adhan and a small dua or Jafferi which waits for good 30 minutes.
Now a days in Bohra, it almost takes 20 minutes because after Maghrib Salat they start doing Maatam and other innovative rituals before being given Raza to break fast.

[porus]

Originally posted by omabharti:
so the question is who is right?

I already answered that. Be consistent with 2:187.

Daaimul Islam quotes a hadith where Prophet broke fast between adhan and iqamaa. It also states that Ali recommended not to wait too long after sunset before breaking fast.

However, I would go by the Quran and give secondary importance to hadith. In that case, Jaafaris appear to be the ones adhering to Quran the most, followed by Bohras and then Sunnis.

I accept that all are sincere in their beliefs about the time to break their fast. I would not personally enter into a dispute about this issue with anyone.

[banda e khuda]

in other word u r saying that there is no time limit to open ur fast and u can take as much time as u can cause it can only b performed after a proper night fall, and ofcource to determine the limits, v done have the say or think in any of these matter at all.

[Hussain_KSA]

Brother Porus

I have sent you a private massage. Please check it.

[anajmi]

However, I would go by the Quran and give secondary importance to hadith.

Or you can find a good teacher of taawil and baatin who will agree with you!!

Rejecting the actions of the prophet for your own personal understanding of the quran is not the mark of a good muslim.

[porus]

Originally posted by banda e khuda:
in other word u r saying that there is no time limit to open ur fast and u can take as much time as u can cause it can only b performed after a proper night fall, and ofcource to determine the limits, v done have the say or think in any of these matter at all.

Yes. There is no specific time for breaking your fast except that it should be delayed until the darkness of the night. That means that the fast must not be broken when there is still some twilight. Depending on your location of the globe this could take up to 45 minutes after magharib in most latitudes where Muslims live.

Ignore all ahadith if they conflict with Quran, even if they are in Daaimul Islam.

[anajmi]

Ignore all ahadith if they conflict with Quran, even if they are in Daaimul Islam.

How much does a person, who considers fasting to be an insignificant ritual, a hinderance really, do you think has actually understood how to fast?

Consider the bohra case of combining prayers. Is that what the prophet did or is that what the quran recommends? Try not to throw your own deficient understanding into the mix to mislead others.

[anajmi]

Depending on your location of the globe this could take up to 45 minutes after magharib in most latitudes where Muslims live.

Which is probably the reason behind the wisdom of the prophet.

[banda e khuda]

not v much satisfied with brother Porus explanation, will appretianed view on more learened view on subject????????????????

[Danish]

There's no specific clock-clicking-cloaking over fasting. Verse 2:187 simply points out to fasting from sunrise to sunset. Perhaps Muhammad was gifted with a priceless fathomless yet fathomable physical Rolex watch w/calender & alarm sent down by Allah via Jabraeel to keep him abreast, punctual and to tick his fancy.

During the jahilia period, fasting was administered towards penitence for sins committed for any given number of days but the Arabized version turned it into a month long mandatory ritualistic feisty zesty session with lots of religious goodies added.

There's no prohibition from eating and drinking and neither there is any mention of 30 days compulsory fasting anywhere found in the Quran.

Now here's what may have happened, as per my figment of imagination, LOL. Iblis, who had the guts to disobey and confront Allah and hence banished from the heavens and became a fallen angel, must have tricked Jabraeel from having the priceless Rolex and replaced it with a fake one. Since Allah gave his priceless watch away, he forgot to mention the essential specifics in the Quran, i.e. exact timings, compulsory number of days and other religious goodies that came with it during Ramadhan. But the Arabs were clever in devicing special interests, as was Iblis, and made sure to depend absolutely in the fake Rolex watch which gave a better understanding of the entire rythmic Ramadhan as Muslims have it today in the name of Islam.

[banda e khuda]

Dear Porus,

U said that hidayah should be rejected if does not comply with verse 2:187, right, but my question is the interpration of said verse, you cannot and should not totally close ur mind from other intelectual wisdom of muslim uma and totally be rejected. Your comment pl.

[humble_servant_us]

What is qaza namaz.

If compulsary namaz could not be established within the prescribed time, then a qaza of it has to be offered.

What is qaza roza

Fasting in month of ramzaan is compulsary and if we miss it during this month(due to valid reasons) than a qaza of that roza has to be done.

Time of roza starts with Fajr time and ends at Magrib. You have all the liberty to eat/drink before Fajr and after magrib. Now if some one eats 20/30/60 minutes after magrib it doesn;t make his roza qaza or invalid. It is only he is overstressing himself.

So basically by breaking a fast little late we do not do any qaza of roza. Reciting duas after namaz is always a highly recommended act.

[Muslim]

Danish: Verse 2:187 simply points out to fasting from sunrise to sunset.

humble_servant: Time of roza starts with Fajr time and ends at Magrib

If we go by the Quran both these statements are incorrect. As Porus stated, the Quran uses the word night (layl), not sunset (maghrib) for when the fast should end. When the sun sets, its still quite bright outside for at least a good 20 mins. The Jafari fiqh are the only ones staying true to the word of the Quran by delaying breaking their fast intentionally until there is darkness in the sky.

[anajmi]

That is an incorrect interpretation of the quran. For eg. Consider the verse 11:114 which defines the fajr and the maghrib prayers. This is what the verse says.

011.114
YUSUFALI: And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):
PICKTHAL: Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful.
SHAKIR: And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful.

For some reason shakir translates it as two parts.

Scholars agree that these prayers refer to the fajr and the maghrib prayers. And porus does too. And since these are 2 ends of the day, it follows that maghrib is the end of the day and the beginning of the night, or when night appears.

Besides the quran divides the entire day in 2 parts based upon sunset and sunrise, layl and nahar. Not as we do it in the english language - morning, noon, evening and night or some combination thereof. That is the reason why dawn, in 2:187 is explained using the examples of black and white thread (metaphorical) since it does not correspond to sunrise.

[Danish]

Danish: Verse 2:187 simply points out to fasting from sunrise to sunset.

humble_servant: Time of roza starts with Fajr time and ends at Magrib.

The word 'sawn' does not mean fasting and the phrase "laylatul sayyaam" simply mean 'night of discipline'. There's no command or prohibition to not eat and drink in the Quran but in fact encourages to admonish provisions without being gluttons. The following is the correct rendition of the verse 2:187:

2:187 It is permitted for you during the nights of discipline to maintain the cordial relationship (2:197) towards your women. They are clothing for you and you are their clothing. God knows indeed you - that you have wronged yourselves – He pardoned you and He forgave it from you. Thus, give them the good news (42:23). - And you shall imbibe whatever that had been prescribed for you by God - and savour (ku-luu-wash-robuu) until it is clear for you the white thread (35:27) from the black thread - from dawn – then - discipline yourself to the night. And do not cause them any unhappiness, when you are devoted in the consented decrees. That is the limit of God - you must not frown (ba-siru 75:24) them. That is how God explains His signs for mankind so that they observe.

The verse is talking about sexual relations at night and explains to become humble with your women whilst adopting and maintaining discipline throughtout the day (from sunrise to sunset). It's one the many basic principles of obligations (salat), to observe purity (zakat) and to submit-in-humility (ruku-us-sujjud). Very simple, logical and natural.

[humble_servant_us]

anajmi/muslim

The point which i wanted to make is that delaying of fast does not make the roza qaza.

I understand there is a difference of opinion among sects regarding the times of ending the fasts(salaat timings). Whatever be the case whether it be at sunset or "x" minutes past sunset, delaying the breaking of fast beyond the time which a particular sect follows does not make it qaza.

Bohras and sunnis have more or less same magrib timings, shias have magrib 10-15 minutes later.

[S. Insaf]

More than debating on timing the important thing is to undestand the purpose of keeping fast. The credit should be given to the Holy Prophet for making the feasting Arabs fasting. The real purpose is to realise the hunger of the poor and starving people.

[Danish]

More than debating on timing the important thing is to undestand the purpose of keeping fast. The credit should be given to the Holy Prophet for making the feasting Arabs fasting. The real purpose is to realise the hunger of the poor and starving people.

I humbly beg to differ with you, Insaf. In ancient times, although fasting was administered as one of the traits for penitence, it had nothing to do with realizing hunger. As in the past, till today and perhaps always will, millions of people remain already poor, hunger stricken and starving to death. Instead of supporting the destitute, and nourishing the weak and the hungry, the Arabized version of Ramadan Rhythmic Realization would further starve them to death. For these poor and hungry millions across the globe, Ramadan becomes a scary pitfall and for the rich its only a forced farce since these dimwits already know that as soon as the sun goes down, their gluttonous egos rise up with all sorts of fanciful feast.

Fasting for 30 long days from sunset to sunrise upsets every phase of ones' daily routine and from healthy activity. The poor and the hungry remain destitute not only during the daytime or for one month only but at night as well and many remain that way for months and perhaps years of struggling and hunger, until they fall prey to their unfortuante sickening death while others are fortunate to survive. These foolish brainwashed people are nervously afraid that their fasts may break if they eat and drink slightly beyond horizon and/or eat and drink just moments before twilight, as if all hell will break loose and their Creator will punish them severely in the hereafter for not observing these strict, harsh and wretched Arabized decrees. What a pathetic way to live a life.

The Quran professes to feed the poor, the needy and the hungry and to provide welfare and charitable causes for them so that they can live a happy and healthy life. Lo and behold, there's not a word in the Quran that commands, restricts or prohibits from not eating and drinking, yet the pagan idolworshippers carved out and dedicated an entire month to imitate what they now call "hunger realization", most looking foolishly towards the moon while others focused on calendars just to eagerly begin something that they absolutely have no historic idea about other than emotionally attached foolish religious down syndrome instigated by the unscrupulous and thoughtless wannabes called Muslims (with capital ‘M’).

[anajmi]

Danish, as always, has no clue about what the quran actually says or does not say. The quran that he normally refers to, is the one that says whatever he wants to say.

This is what the REAL quran actually says (according to a translation by Arthur J Arberry)

O believers, prescribed for you is the Fast, even as it was prescribed for those that were before you -- haply you will be godfearing --
for days numbered; and if any of you be sick, or if he be on a journey, then a number of other days; and for those who are able to fast, a redemption by feeding a poor man. Yet better. it is for him who volunteers good, and that you should fast is better for you, if you but know; the month of Ramadan, wherein the Koran was sent down to be a guidance to the people, and as clear signs of the Guidance and the Salvation.

If the arabic "sawm" were to mean discipline, there wasn't a need to specify a time during the day to maintain this discipline. According to Danish's quran, maintain discipline during a certain time of the day and then, behave like an animal !!

Now according to Danish

not a word in the Quran that commands, restricts or prohibits from not eating and drinking,

Now here is something that Danish posted earlier as a translation for 2:187

And you shall imbibe whatever that had been prescribed for you by God - and savour (ku-luu-wash-robuu) until it is clear for you the white thread (35:27) from the black thread - from dawn – then - discipline yourself to the night.

So Danish's is god is asking you to imbibe and savour during a certain time of the day and then discipline yourself to the night. While imbibing and savuoring, you do not need to be disciplined, you can imbibe and savour like an animal, or like Danish would.

Here is the translation from Arthut Arberry

Permitted to you, upon the night of the Fast, is to go in to your wives; -- they are a vestment for you, and you are a vestment for them. God knows that you have been betraying yourselves, and has turned to you and pardoned you. So now lie with them, and seek what God has prescribed for you. And eat and drink, until the white thread shows clearly to you from the black thread at the dawn; then complete the Fast unto the night, and do not lie with them while you cleave to the mosques. Those are God's bounds; keep well within them. So God makes clear His signs to men; haply they will be godfearing.

The command about eating and drinking (imbibing and savouring for the animals) is pretty clear.

[anajmi]

humble_servant,

I would've agreed with you, however, I just saw something in ayah 2:187 that says something slightly different.

This is what 2:187 says about the limits during fasting

002.187
YUSUFALI: Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah Hath ordained for you, and eat and drink, until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast Till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are Limits (set by) Allah: Approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self-restraint.
PICKTHAL: It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques. These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus Allah expoundeth His revelation to mankind that they may ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: It is made lawful to you to go into your wives on the night of the fast; they are an apparel for you and you are an apparel for them; Allah knew that you acted unfaithfully to yourselves, so He has turned to you (mercifully) and removed from you (this burden); so now be in contact with them and seek what Allah has ordained for you, and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn, then complete the fast till night, and have not contact with them while you keep to the mosques; these are the limits of Allah, so do not go near them. Thus does Allah make clear His communications for men that they may guard (against evil).

Arberry
Permitted to you, upon the night of the Fast, is to go in to your wives; -- they are a vestment for you, and you are a vestment for them. God knows that you have been betraying yourselves, and has turned to you and pardoned you. So now lie with them, and seek what God has prescribed for you. And eat and drink, until the white thread shows clearly to you from the black thread at the dawn; then complete the Fast unto the night, and do not lie with them while you cleave to the mosques. Those are God's bounds; keep well within them. So God makes clear His signs to men; haply they will be godfearing.

[Danish]

Khalifa: "I will mislead them, I will entice them, I will command them to (forbid the eating of certain meats by) marking the ears of livestock, and I will command them to distort the creation of GOD."
Yusuf Ali: "I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by God."

Khalifa: "I will come to them from before them, and from behind them, and from their right, and from their left, and You will find that most of them are unappreciative."
Yusuf Ali: "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."

Khalifa: Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
Yusuf Ali: Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Khalifa: They repel others from this (Quran), as they themselves stay away from it, and thus, they only destroy themselves without perceiving.
Yusuf Ali: Others they keep away from it, and themselves they keep away; but they only destroy their own souls, and they perceive it not.

Khalifa: The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."
Yusuf Ali: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense."

Guess who the above verses (and several others) are talking about? Yes, the pagan idolworshipping Arabs and their followers who proudly call themselves "Muslims".

[anajmi]

Actually, Muslims are those that follow the quran and the sunnah of the prophet and believe in Allah as the one and only God, Creator and Sustainer and believe that Prophet Muhammad (sas) is his messenger.

[Danish]

This is what the REAL quran actually says (according to a translation by Arthur J Arberry)

LOL! A REAL quran by a munafiq or a mushriq or a kafir, as per Muslim Anajmi. If someone else quoted a quranic translation or interpretation of any non-Muslim, Anajmi's blood would spill out:

If the arabic "sawm" were to mean discipline, there wasn't a need to specify a time during the day to maintain this discipline. According to Danish's quran, maintain discipline during a certain time of the day and then, behave like an animal !!

In ancient or 'Muhammad's' era, people slept during most the night, so there was no need of discipline other than cordial relations between sexes. Today, people work graveyard shifts, eat and drink during the night and most sleep during daytime and have sex at anytime. Discipline and obligations confer 24/7 (reformed). But thoughtless brainwashed people like Anajmi still think that our 21st century MUST remain as commanded in 6th century. twisted:

Now according to Danish
... And eat and drink, until the white thread shows clearly to you from the black thread at the dawn; then complete the Fast unto the night, and do not lie with them while you cleave to the mosques. Those are God's bounds; keep well within them. So God makes clear His signs to men; haply they will be godfearing.

The command about eating and drinking (imbibing and savouring for the animals) is pretty clear.

It's clear by manipulation and twisted words. Read again as the Quran commands to contemplate and understand it carefully. Anajmi has yet to provide a single verse that SPECIFICALLY commands, restricts or prohibits from eating and drinking. Anajmi ignores my references made towards the poor, the hungry and the needy, and wants them to suffer and die from further hunger by Islamic Ramadan Rythmic Rituals by looking at the moon or the calender. These pathetic Arabized followers are dumb, deaf and blind, and their hearts and minds are sealed.

[anajmi]

Danish misses the point. The reason I quoted Arthur Arberry was precisely because he is not a muslim but a non-muslim scholar of the Arabic language. Much more difficult for Danish to dismiss. I quoted the ayah that specifically talks about eating and drinking.

Let me repeat - 2:187 according to Arthur Arberry, not my words. This is the link for this translation

Permitted to you, upon the night of the Fast, is to go in to your wives; -- they are a vestment for you, and you are a vestment for them. God knows that you have been betraying yourselves, and has turned to you and pardoned you. So now lie with them, and seek what God has prescribed for you. And eat and drink, until the white thread shows clearly to you from the black thread at the dawn; then complete the Fast unto the night, and do not lie with them while you cleave to the mosques. Those are God's bounds; keep well within them. So God makes clear His signs to men; haply they will be godfearing.

For those who are as dumb as Danish, here is a lesson in the english language

"And eat and drink until ..(such time)" means that after such time you are not allowed to eat and drink. A very clear ayah prohibiting eating and drinking and specifying the time after which you cannot eat and drink till the time specified to complete this act - "then complete the Fast unto the night".

Anajmi ignores my references made towards the poor, the hungry and the needy, and wants them to suffer and die from further hunger

Actually, anajmi wants nothing of that sort. Anajmi just wants to deal with Danish right now.

[anajmi]

Forgot to post the link to Arthur Arberry's translation

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/arthurs ... rry10.html

[Danish]

Forgot to post the link to Arthur Arberry's translation

http://arthursclassicnovels.com/arthurs ... rry10.html

No sweat! An Arabized (wahabbi) Muslim who calls Christians, Jews and ALL non-Muslims as "kaffirs", vehemently and embarassingly quotes a Christian translation.

[Danish]

Danish misses the point. The reason I quoted Arthur Arberry was precisely because he is not a muslim but a non-muslim scholar of the Arabic language. Much more difficult for Danish to dismiss. I quoted the ayah that specifically talks about eating and drinking.

Let me repeat - 2:187 according to Arthur Arberry, not my words. This is the link for this translation.

Acutally its clearly you who misses the point. Firstly, if I quoted any other non_Muslim's quranic rendtions, would you accept? Secondly, what's the purpose of fasting a whole 28 or 29 or 30 day month and not just few days or even a whole year, as per your Arabized Muslim version. Thirdly, what has moon got to do with fasting? Fourthly, what happens if you don't see the moon? Fifthly, what benefit would the already poor and the starving incur from 30 days Rythmic Ramadan? Muslims claim that Ramadan is to practice and realize poverty and hunger, but then what about the people who are already in it for months and years? Would you further starve them to death by starvation of alleged Ramadan and take whatever their possessions as gains?