Is Prophet Mohammad also referred to as "NOOR"

[pardesi]

There is no heirarchy business

But in my opinion Quran does talk about heirarchy. If for example Prophet was not at a higher level than us then why would he ask if he holds more rights over believers than their ownselves? Allah also says that when the matter is decided between Allah and His Prophet, the momineen and mominaat have no business interferring.

Now you are beginning to understand how this "NOOR" works. I think I was very clear in my post.

Peace my brother. I will be back within a few days.

[pardesi]

Pardesi,

I was just answering to your post. And no I am not confusing Nubuwat with Imamat as this thread is on Prophet and not Imam. But since you bloody well know in your heart what you are trying to get at you are hearing your own echo...

Wait a second, which of my post you were responding to. Is it when you posted the genealogy of the Prophet and forgot to change your handle? Thats one from each one of us.

[jawanmardan]

I really don't know why I bother...

Oh lord give me strength!

[pardesi]

I really don't know why I bother...

Oh lord give me strength!

JM,

Sorry for getting in the way.

I am out. Its all yours for a week

[jawanmardan]

JM,

Sorry for getting in the way.

I am out. Its all yours for a week

Thanks! you really shouldn't have. No really you shouldn't.

[Aarif]

The Nour Din Muhammad is the axes by which we discover that which is beyond the human mind to comprehend.

JM,

Going by this in case of our prophet(pbuh) it makes obvious sense that it was Allah who gave him the ilm and holy book of knowledge. Because it is impossible for a human bieng to comprehand these things don't you think it makes even more sense to leave this matters to him rather than assuming that human beings are capable of playing his role...

[Aarif]

Wait a second, which of my post you were responding to. Is it when you posted the genealogy of the Prophet and forgot to change your handle? Thats one from each one of us.

Pardesi,

Do not laugh too much because the joke is on Ismailis who cleverly start threads on prophets assuming that they will slowly convince others to believe the crap of progeny of prophet regarding their Imams. My post on progeny of prophets was in response to your followin post:

I am honestly trying to stay out of this for the time being as I am preparing to leave town this evening and may not be able to contribute for a few days. But I must answer, rather, question your statements before I go.

[Aarif]

But in my opinion Quran does talk about heirarchy. If for example Prophet was not at a higher level than us then why would he ask if he holds more rights over believers than their ownselves? Allah also says that when the matter is decided between Allah and His Prophet, the momineen and mominaat have no business interferring.

Pardesi,

Now you are cracking lot of jokes one after another... I have already presented some samples of the knowledge of your Imam in terms of Islam and Quran. Actually you are right. He has more knowledge than you guys. That is why he is able to fool you with all this heierarchy crap...

Please goahead and take your paid vacation. You have done a good PR job for your Imam so far. But make sure that you come back. Inshallah this thread will still be ON and you will recieve some more bashing from me...

[Aarif]

If for example Prophet was not at a higher level than us then why would he ask if he holds more rights over believers than their ownselves? Allah also says that when the matter is decided between Allah and His Prophet, the momineen and mominaat have no business interferring.

Obviously prophet (pbuh) was more knowledgeable than others and that is because Allah decided to give him the light of knowledge. So again because he was the chosen one he was more knwoledgeable than others and why he was the chosen one? Because Allah decided to choose him. These things are crystal clear but unfortunately the Ismailis are twisting them to make sure that someone does not get exposed...

[Muslim First]

.

Does that mean that the Prophet said he is not from the lineage of Ibrahim?

Padeshi Bhai

Yes, I believe he said that. And most of Arab tribes at his time claimed it. Ismailis are only who give you lineage up to Ibrahim AS but they also have lineage to Adam AS. Now if Prophet stopped at Ma'add bin Adnan in his geneology then where did Ismailis find it all the way to Adam?

I am sure there are smart people at Aga Khan Institute making up facts.

[Aarif]

Br. MF,

Actually the Ismailis are not at all concerned with the lineage of prophets. They are only concerned with the lineage of their Imam... All this noor and light business is to create a huge glare and disable people from viewing the truth about their Imam.. This is called convincing people by confusing them...

Here is a sample of Ismaili logic:

Because prophet was more knowledgeable than other followers of Islam hazar Imam is noor of Allah... And the reasoning behind that is that he is from the lineage of prophet and since prophet had more knowledge than us all his progeny will have more knowledge than us... E.g. if my father is more intelligent than your father than I am more intelligent than you. Can you buy this load of crap??

Anyways let's enjoy till the fun lasts

[znanwalla]

Areef,

don't show us your ignorance as always for we know the limitations of your knowledge and that of MF also.....

Ta'wil of word 'Itâ'ah' (Obedience to God, the Prophet and the Imam):

"The holy Prophet said to Hazrat Ali: "He who obeys me, indeed obeys Allah and he who disobeys me, indeed disobeys Allah and he who obeys you, indeed obeys me and he who disobeys you, indeed disobeys me." (al-Mustradrak, III, 121). This Hadith is an exegesis of verse (4:59) about obedience." [Source: Tawil 76: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Uli'l-amr' (The custodians of the Divine commands, the true Imams):
"Verse (4:59) says: "O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger and the ulu'l-amr from amongst you." That is, in addition to Allah and the Prophet, obedience to the Imam from the progeny of the Prophet, whose Imamat is established from the Qur'an and Hadith, is obligatory.

Contrary to this, world kings and rulers cannot be the ulu'l-amr, nor is any example of them found in the age of Prophethood, the ideal age of Islam.

In the same surah in verse (4:54) there is mention of giving of the Book, the wisdom and a great kingdom to the Progeny of Ibrahim and here, according to the context of the subject, by progeny of Ibrahim are meant to be Muhammad (s.a.s.) and his progeny." [Source: Tawil 133: A Thousand Wisdoms]

Ta'wil of word 'Imâm' (Guide):

"The following hadith is about the virtues of the Qur'an: "Indeed, everything has a heart and the heart of the Qur'an is Yâ-Sin (Surah 36)" (Trimidhi, V, 162). One main reason for this title of Yâ-Sin is that the Treasure of the treasures of God is mentioned in it, which is: "And We have encompassed everything in the manifest Imam." (36:12). That is, God enfolds the universe in the living and present Imam and also unfolds it from him." [Source: Tawil 106: A Thousand Wisdoms]
Ta'wil of word 'Kullu shay'in' (Everything, all things):

"The wise Qur'an is the perfect and complete Book in whose exoteric and esoteric aspects there is explanation of everything (16:89). (and some fool was arguing about the TWO sides to the coin !)and also the Wise Quran is flawless ! complete and clear ! unlike your interpolations !

The magnificent and unique principle which is the treasure of its heart cannot be praised by us human beings and that universal principle full of quintessence (i.e., the pure, highly concentrated essence) of wisdom is:

"And We have encompassed everything in a Manifest Imam." (36:12).

That is, all spiritual and intellectual subtle things of the kingdom of God can be found gathered and enfolded in the manifest Imam, provided someone recognizes himself or herself." [Source: Tawil 732: A Thousand Wisdoms]

So if you claim there is a "Hidden" then you must show its Manifest also ! and if you can't then there is no hidden as Allah has made everything in pairs !

Now ofcourse we all have heard that you call your own Imams as useless which is simply idiotic and then you concede that your own texts are fabrications also...now that is also silly ! but then what can one expect from you other than such statements ?...zn

[Muslim First]

Br. Aarif

It is more complicated then what you are saying. Lineage from Adam AS runs thru Ali's father to Ali and down to their MHI. Prophet SAW being son of Abdullah and younger Brother to Hz. Ali's father was just a accidental Prophet. His job was to reveal Ali. Ali was the one who created big Bang.

It runs in straight line, therefore Hassan RA is not Imam but they invented position for him of Pir. There are holes in Assassins periods but they manufacture Post facto lineages.

I am sure Aga Khan does not know all this Zahir, Batin and Tawil stuff. They have strong Kothar like organization of al-wisze scholars and they let their imagination run wild. That is where ZN's stuff come4s from.

Karim could not care less about all this interpretation stuff. He is happy breeding Horses and now is free so he can have different Arm Candy evey day.

Poor guys are convinced that they have to pay 2.5% Zakat, 10% Ushar (In Islam Usha is tax on agricultural product), so Ismailies are fertile field and MHI is cultivating them to hilt. On the top of that they talk about Khums. May be it is Wajib on them because they are looting poor Africans.

I am glad we will have few days respite.

[Muslim First]

There goes ZN's Stuff. Same BS you have seen elsewhere.

I hope Admin notices it.

[Aarif]

10% Ushar (In Islam Usha is tax on agricultural product), so Ismailies are fertile field and MHI is cultivating them to hilt.

[znanwalla]

MF...There are no "holes" in the history of the Assassins and we have gone through this conclusively save that a hole like you and your lap dogs are reading Marco Polo's fantasies just the way you love to read Mir Bose and bark incessantly at the world.....Imams are appointed through NASS ! PIRS are appointed too by the Imams ! In all sufi tariqa there are and will be PIRS ! at your lower levels this may be news to you ! so go and read Mir Bose and be happy ! WE know who the Imams are and who the PIRs are and so you may be deliberately confused....but you cannot even argue the basis of your own concoctions as most of our questions remain unanswered....you have not even been able to explain why the Prophet married almost 14 wives when your text reveals that only 4 is allowed? You have not been able to explain the screw up on your chronological order? on the abrogations issue? etc etc...you have not been able to almost answer none of our questions.....Imam is an Imam ! Prophet is a Prophet ! and Pirs are Pirs ! and frankly maherally's books do not have any explanation or answers as he depends on MIR Bose and does not even know the Quran.....infact if I go deeper into this subject you may not like it....and so I am trying hard to avoid it....You don't even know why God uses HIS own First Person as WE/US/OURS !...You all are simply full of ignorance and then you want to talk to us about Imamat, and Quran and the Prophet ....go home and get lost from here !...zn

[znanwalla]

Areeef,

First kindly explain to us why you are paying ONLY 2.5% Sadaqa (if you still are) and let us know the basis of fixing this at 2.5%? who approved it? and show us even from your interpolated , goat eaten texts, if this % is indicated or not?....then we can atleast know you are trying to follow the Quran....zn

[Muslim First]

ZN

36. 12
Surely We shall resurrect the dead, We are recording all that they are sending ahead and
that they are leaving behind. We have recorded everything in an open ledger. (Malik)

36.12
Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them), and
their footprints. And all things We have kept in a clear register. (Pickthall)

36.12
Verily We shall give life to the dead and We record that which they sent before and that which
they leave behind and of all things have We taken account in a clear Book (of evidence) (Yusuf Ali)

ZN what do think we are?

Ignorant cunverts from Hindus and are still half Hindus?

Take your BS somewhere else.

[Muslim First]

ZN

You can have conversion with your Veggie.

I am not interested

[znanwalla]

In reality the veggies are your specialty - not ours ! they are your lap dogs ! we here are too individual and not subjugated or do not belong to the cult of the "bullied and the bought" !!!....zn

[Aarif]

Here is one more:

HAK TUN PAK TUN BADSHAH

Pir Shams

You are the Just, You are the Faultless, O Lord!

You are also Gracious, O our Lord Ali. ...1


You are the Cherisher and the Sustainer,

and You are the Merciful, O Ali.

You are the First and the Last Judge ...2


You originated and You created, O Lord!

O Ali, You are the Maker also. ...3


In the water and on the land, O Ali,

You have laid the roots (of creation)

and they are at Your command. ...4


In Your friendship says Pir Shams,

"I am Your captive, You are my all in all". ...5

http://ismaili.net/granths/a44.html

[znanwalla]

Yes ofcourse the Quran as revealed is fully protected by Allah ! HE does not and never will protect your goat eaten texts - written by paid script writers for you guys ! hahahahah! so take your like thereof elsewhere and don't show it to us for we have the Quran !.....

SAY; were the sea to be the ink for the words of my Lord, verily the sea would be used up before the words of my Lord were exhausted, even if WE were to bring the like thereof to help..." (Sura al Kahf )...now see what Allah says even about the Quran?....maybe you will not find this in your text as the goat must have eaten it huh?...zn

[znanwalla]

The PIRS were it seems more knowledgeable and enlightened than you are....so if the Guru says soak your mat in alchohol and say your prayers on it then do so as this is Obedience to the Olil Amr as per Allah's direction.....don't you even know that when Muhamade conveyed, after him Ali inherited the Quran and had the sole and legitimate authority to interpret the Final Message ? and so the marifa is then with whom? certainly not with your Mullahs huh ! Nabi came to show the Truth and Ali now has this Truth ! and Where Ali is, the Truth is and so the PIRS are not wrong....did the prophet not say that Ali and I are from the same ONE Noor ! and he is frommy flesh and did Ali not say that my relationship with the prophet is as Light is related to Light?.....so you backward lower leve shariati folks will not understand any Sufi tariqa....so be happy with what you have and bark less or go to some alleys of America and bark...zn

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

As I stated above Ta'wil and Tafsir are far broader than individual ayat interpretation by rote, instead they are bound to a greater synergy of human life and living, of Qu'ranic inspiration and real challenges within each epoch to which an Imam is binds his being.

Sorry, my friend, but I have no idea what you are saying over there. I am going to assume that Aga Khan hasn't, as yet, given an alternate interpretation of any ayah of the quran. If he is doing what you are suggesting he is doing and if I have interpreted you correctly, then we don't need an Imam. Every decade has always produced great thinkers, real thinkers and not pretenders. Having said that, I will say that you are welcome to believe anything you like.

[anajmi]

znan,

Allah has protected the quran. That is why people like you are left quoting from fabrications. What a pity. Didn't your Hazar Imam share the quran with you? Maybe you don't deserve it. Prophet and Hazrat Ali may be from the same noor, but no part of that noor is with Aga Khan. He is a fake.

[jawanmardan]

Here is a sample of Ismaili logic:

Because prophet was more knowledgeable than other followers of Islam hazar Imam is noor of Allah... And the reasoning behind that is that he is from the lineage of prophet and since prophet had more knowledge than us all his progeny will have more knowledge than us... E.g. if my father is more intelligent than your father than I am more intelligent than you.

The envoy (Rasul) inaugurates a new religious period; he is the enunciator (Natiq) of a religious Law (Shari'at), which he recieves from a celestial angel as Tanzil (descends down from), he places the letter of this text in the exoteric Zahir form. It is his mission to establish the rules of the practice, and activity the Ibadat Amaliya, through which the souls are given a "first birth" their perfectio prima if you will.

The spiritual successor to the Natiq is the Wasi a diadochos, he is designated the foundation "asas" that in the form of the foundation of the Imamate. The wasi's proper function is as a repository of the spiritual religion in the form of Tawil (which carries back) the exoteric Zahir to its spiritual hidden center the batin. His mission is to establish the spiritual aspects of faith the Ibadat 'Batinat 'ilmiya, so as to mold the soul into the eternal forms, for his adepts the is the second spiritual birth..

Next is the Imam, he assumes authority over the community in a spiritual esoteric sense, and actually in a temporal exoteric sense under exceptional circumstances. he connects zahir and batin, the necessary transmutation of the adepts into spiritual beings. The last Imam of every line the Qaim or Mahdi (resurrector) in whose being is recapitulated the entire previous Imams leads their temple of 'aql (light).

The imams person can be realized as a symbol of the self, in so far as one moves from spiritual birth to spiritual birth. Culminating in new horizons or qiyamat (a resurrection).

This rhythmic law does not operate in a top down vertical manner, you need to consider this unfolding instead over a period of time, we are not dealing here with historians, "what ifs", chronology of Imams, and positive history, or even material facts. we can only give into the avoidance of time, which is itself a manifestation of the sacred, serving as a spiritual figure. because through time, the successors appear to their followers, I prefer to say adepts.

Can you buy this load of crap??

If you don't want to have a civil discussion then what is the point?

Anyways let's enjoy till the fun lasts

If thats your point, I rather not play along.

[jawanmardan]

jawanmardan,

As I stated above Ta'wil and Tafsir are far broader than individual ayat interpretation by rote, instead they are bound to a greater synergy of human life and living, of Qu'ranic inspiration and real challenges within each epoch to which an Imam is binds his being.

Sorry, my friend, but I have no idea what you are saying over there. I am going to assume that Aga Khan hasn't, as yet, given an alternate interpretation of any ayah of the quran. If he is doing what you are suggesting he is doing and if I have interpreted you correctly, then we don't need an Imam. Every decade has always produced great thinkers, real thinkers and not pretenders. Having said that, I will say that you are welcome to believe anything you like.

Its part and parcel of both, the living being, and scriptural exegesis. Anyway I don't want to get bogged down with the tone that is beginning to be set in the room.

[turbocanuck]

Areeef,

First kindly explain to us why you are paying ONLY 2.5% Sadaqa (if you still are) and let us know the basis of fixing this at 2.5%? who approved it? and show us even from your interpolated , goat eaten texts, if this % is indicated or not?....then we can atleast know you are trying to follow the Quran....zn

They are ALL hypocrites....... just before the "time" zakat" gets calculated by the government,millions of Rupees experience "HERA-PHERI" so they dont have to pay a lot of money.Ha Ha ha ha ha ha........ what the hell.... one more for _______ now look at the guilty party, how they get their "Above the ankle Charlie Chaplin" Pajamas in a Knot........

[znanwalla]

Areef,

don't worry about the ismailis and what our Imam may or may tell us ! rather go and ask your mullahs what you should do with your goat eaten texts - chronological order as screwed up as your demented faculties and them 'abrogating" without even knowing the correct order or sequence in which the ayats were revealed....and make sure you wear your "black" uniform when you ask huh !...zn

[znanwalla]

JM...I have told them that they are not at your level....that is why he does not even understand your language or your underlying message which comes as a salient portion or part of the entire sentence or para that you offer and unless someone reads what you write slowly and more than once, they cannot grasp what you are even saying to this low level folks....they are just boastful ! frankly they are empty vessels making the most noise !


Regarding the Holy Prophet, the Holy Qur'an says, "Did not We open your heart?" (94:1). This means that the blessed heart of the Prophet, i.e., his pure soul was expanded to the ultimate and as a result he could see the spiritual form of the entire universe in his own pure soul."...and after the prophet was Hazrat Murtaza Ali and his pure descendants !..zn