Any Help With A Divorce Case

[Aarif]

Br. MF,

This might be true in some muslim communities. However, it does not work that way in bohra community. I have clearly mentioned the same in my earlier post. Also, from the links that you have posted on the marriage of Moulana Ali and Fatima-bin-te Zahra, meher is something given at the time of marriage and not during divorce or seperation...

Thanks for the links.

[Muslim First]

Br. Areef

SA

Study my link of August 11, 2008 11:48 AM

[Aarif]

Br. MF,

I read the link. It states that it is up to the woman to claim it i.e. "whenever the wife demands". This is deemed to happen during the marriage in bohras i.e. meher is given during marriage. And nothing wrong with that. I think this topic does not need any further discussion than this.

[Danish]

Originally posted by Aareef:
Danish,

You have no idea whatsoever about Meher. Do not display your ignorance by writing crap as usual. Meher is given during marraige and not during seperation or divorce. And also it is not alimony..

Opposition from the Board members on giving talaq rights to Muslim women was mainly related to the concept of khula, wherein a woman can end her marriage, but she has to forego mehar (alimony fixed at the time of nikah).

Says Dr Safiya Naseem, a woman member of the Board, ‘‘Talaq ka haq sirf mardon ko hai aur aurton ko khula ka haq hai (Men have the right to talaq, but women have to right to khula). Though both talaq and khula terminate the matrimonial alliance, the basic difference between the two is that in the former, the husband gives the mehar amount to the wife at the time of divorce, but in the latter, the wife has to forego the amount.

Says Iqtidar Ali, ‘‘If the Muslim women are given talaq rights, they would not have to forego mehar.’’
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullst ... wsid=33316

One of the most interesting aspects of Islamic marriage contracts occasionally faced by U.S. courts is mahr. Most Muslims who marry according to Islamic custom, whether abroad or in the United States, negotiate a mahr provision as part of a nuptial contract. This usually consists of the husband's payment of money to the wife, which can range from a token sum of one dollar to millions of dollars. Sometimes the money is paid upon marriage, but often it is deferred until after the termination of a marriage. Mahr does not have to be money but nearly always is. Mahr is usually negotiated before marriage, but in instances where mahr is not agreed upon, a Muslim judge can determine the amount at a later date. This property belongs to the wife, so it is not a bride price, and comparisons with western ideas of contractual consideration should be avoided. Modern literature prefers to interpret it as an effect of the marriage, and as a mark of respect from the man to the woman. The term 'mahr' is frequently rendered into English as 'dower,' although this translation can be problematic and it is perhaps preferable to use mahr instead.
http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Arti ... c_Mehr.htm

The mahr may also be divided into portions, one to be given the bride at marriage, the other to be given the wife if she is widowed or divorced. It should be given according to the social status of the bride.

Islamic scholars consider it a way of showing importance of marriage contract and a preparation on behalf of husband to fulfill his marital responsibilities. It also can be a form of protection against arbitrary divorce.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahr

You should learn more about Talaq, Khul and Mehar alongwith alimony and palimony. In Islamic reality, at least the way its been perceived, rarely do the husbands pay anything to their seperated or divorced wives. They trash them away to become "secondary" products.

[Aarif]

Danish,

This might seem to be prevalent in other muslim communities. However, in bohras meher is generally given during marriage and remains with the girl forever. I know this very well becos I have witnessed one divorce case in our community. It was initiated by the girl. After the divorce the girl was just asked to pay a small token sum from her meher money and I think she gave back a very meagre sum of 100-200 Rs. out of her meher which was in thousands.. Also, it is correct that if the guy divorces she does not have to give anything. However, alimony is a different concept when it comes to bohras and lot of other things are taken into consideration while deciding upon it.

[Danish]

Aareef,

Since over 40 years, I've personally witnessed several marriages and as well as broken families, both in Muslim and non-Muslim communities, including my own family members, relatives and close friends. I do not doubt your notions and agree with you in most part. In two of several circumstances, the bride’s family (parents) had to pay a heavy price to the groom just to let her loose for obvious reasons (forget about bride’s contribution as mehar). In almost all cases, the grooms don’t give a damn, because it is simply the women that ultimately suffer and thus they pay their price both ways. This is total injustice in Islam. When “khul” is initiated, it is always severely scrutinized, subjected and overly demeaned in favor of groom’s perspectives that takes precedence and often denied but very seldom accepted. Islam is a totalitarian masculine regime where women are treated as “secondary or sub-humans”, since they never had a “She God”.

The biggest problem people face today, is that, in Islam, men (males) act as machos, hence the superficial male messengers and a male supernatural deity. They think they have the balls and the ‘stick’ to penetrate virgin angels in seventh heavens. In US and Western states, this ideology has been suppressed and separated, thus, State Laws supersede Religious Laws (though accommodating), unlike Islam.

In reality, Muslims do not abide strictly by shariah, Islamic or Quranic injunctions per se but simply vent out in justifications as a 'rule of thumb' which they themselves are culprits, and vary from cult to cult within Islam. Who’s to declare the correct advent and reformations towards righteousness? Obviously not Islam!

[Aarif]

In two of several circumstances, the bride’s family (parents) had to pay a heavy price to the groom just to let her loose for obvious reasons (forget about bride’s contribution as mehar).

Danish,

Out of curiosity I wanted to know whether the above happened in bohra community or in other muslim communities? The reason is I am not very much aware of the proceedings in other communities but in bohris I have not heard of this happening anywhere. Again you have the benifit of my ignorance but as far as I know such cases are rare in our community. They might be true for other muslim communities...

Also, about Islam giving rights to men, you should take a closer look at our bohra community. These days max divorces are initiated by girls. Bohri girls have left guys far behind in most of the aspects if not all. A friend of mine recently went to India to get married. His parents introduced him to many bohri girls. He was thouroughly disappointed by their and their parents' attitude towards guys. Their demands after marriage etc were so unrealistic that my friend was completely pissed. In fact he is now planning to get married outside our community... So dawoodi bohra community can be used as a best example to refute your argument on Islam where you think that male is given supreme rights.

[Danish]

Originally posted by Aareef:

In two of several circumstances, the bride’s family (parents) had to pay a heavy price to the groom just to let her loose for obvious reasons (forget about bride’s contribution as mehar).

Danish,

Out of curiosity I wanted to know whether the above happened in bohra community or in other muslim communities? The reason is I am not very much aware of the proceedings in other communities but in bohris I have not heard of this happening anywhere. Again you have the benifit of my ignorance but as far as I know such cases are rare in our community. They might be true for other muslim communities...

Both the above related unfortunate events happened in my own vast family circle. This usually happens when there's an unbalance in family orientation and class but understandable when both parties are financially strong and worse when weak.

There were other several incidents personally witnessed in friends and acquaintances of Bohra lineage where the divorcees were simply left to rot (most with kids) without alimony, palimony or any support whatsoever. As a matter of fact, when divorces happen in Bohra or other Islamic cults, most often “gheebat gilla”, character assassinations, threats, confrontations and in some cases even murders follows, and thus, all ties are broken and for most part become enemies forever. Now, over time, they may succumb to their injuries and become somewhat “peaceful”, but the damage is hardly forgiven, nevertheless.

These days max divorces are initiated by girls. Bohri girls have left guys far behind in most of the aspects if not all.

Relevantly so in Western Cultures, as per my understanding. But why do you think that is happening; and if at all, in our own backyards? You've raised a good point here that needs elaboration.

[Aarif]

Relevantly so in Western Cultures, as per my understanding.

Not only in western world but mainly in India as well. I do not think that the west is a true representative of our community. The reason being bohras are very few in numbers in the west.

But why do you think that is happening; and if at all, in our own backyards? You've raised a good point here that needs elaboration.

Well few reasons that I can think of are:

1) The uneven balance of education in our community. Traditionally bohri males inherit their fore father's business and most of them continue with that as that is the most easy way out. On the other hand the girls are allowed to study and excel in academics since, our community gives equal rights to men and women. Eventually girls become highly qualified and do not fine suitable matches within our community. Due to pressure from parents most of them get married to under-qualified guys. This results in lack of intellectual frequency. Since, the girl is qualified she does not depend much on the guy financially and obviously will not continue with the relationship if it does not meet her requirements. And this can happen at the slightest provocation. I have heard some people saying that nowadays divorce has become a fashion. In fact some girls get married to please their parents and later get rid of the guy based on some silly excuse..

2) Secondly our community does not have any tradition of dowry etc. Due to this parents of girls are equal and nowadays consider themselves above the parents of boys when it comes to marriage. This results in wear and tear of social environment. People on both sides are now more interested in proving their superiority. "Tu sher toh mein sawaa sher"

3) Even if a girl is professionaly qualified and the guy is professionaly qualified their marriages do not last some times. The reason being since, both are qualified both have egos, careers, etc. Clashes are frequent and eventaully results in breakup.

Any society will only survive under equilibrium. If it reaches the state of disturbia than people have to face and live with the consequences.

[SBM]

One of the biggest reasons in my opinion is forcing of early marriage under "Rasm e Saifee" there are instances where Kothar has put the parents on the spot by asking them to give their daughters to certain boys without asking girls or vice versa during Majaalis.
Lack of education of the parents, pressure from the community and specially the Aamils and other Kotharis has created this situation.
Remember in our community the emphasis is on having any kind of business for the boys rather than education while the girls who are not encouraged to be business owner end up having higher education.
While getting boys and girls for marriage under Rasme Saifee is a good idea, it is the pressure on the parents which is causing marital problems.

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by The Dark Knight:
is it true that u need to w8 four unessesary years if ur husband is denying for a divorce.this has been told to me by aka Moula's shehzada himseld now how much truth lies in all this i really dont ava clue as they been tellin a pack of lies in the past too.if thr is any other procedure do lemme know.thank u

Sister The Dark Knight,

If you wish to learn the right rules pertaining to marriage/divorce as per the faith of Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Shia, then the easiest and authentic way I will humbly like to suggest you is read these below mentioned books. In majority of the time these ‘Kothari’ pretend that they know everything and try to suck money via salam/etc but in reality they are ignorant. In court of law or in arguing with ‘Kothars’ you can use well constructed and true rules and regulations mentioned in the below mentioned books of Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj sahib.

Books Name:
1. Nikah Tallak ke ahkaam.
2. Nikah Tallak may virasat ke ahkaam.

You can even request to speak with daughter of Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj, her name is Mrs. Nafisa Banu her contact numbers is: +91 294 2524989 or you may call one pupil of Sheikh Ahmed Ali Raj sahib he will give you answer as per Dawoodi Bohras Shariyat or will arrange answer for you from books of Shariyat. His name is Janab bhai Sajjad Hussain KG his contact number is: +91 9214695674

Addresses of getting these books are:
1) Mr. Lukman Ali Raj,
66, Dr. Zakir Hussain Marg,
Boharawadi,
Udaipur (313001),
Rajasthan,
India

2) Mr. Imadudeen Attarwala,
Gulistan Perfumers,
Pardha Mansion,
Shaukat Ali Road, J.J. Corner,
Mumbai – 03,
Maharashtra,
India

3) Prof. Mehdi Hasan Inayat Ali,
188, Guruwar Road,
Malegaon,
(Nasik – (423203))
Maharashtra,
India

[Danish]

1) Mr. Lukman Ali Raj,
66, Dr. Zakir Hussain Marg,
Boharawadi,
Udaipur (313001),
Rajasthan,
India

2) Mr. Imadudeen Attarwala,
Gulistan Perfumers,
Pardha Mansion,
Shaukat Ali Road, J.J. Corner,
Mumbai – 03,
Maharashtra,
India

3) Prof. Mehdi Hasan Inayat Ali,
188, Guruwar Road,
Malegaon,
(Nasik – (423203))
Maharashtra,
India

[Danish]

Originally posted by Danish:
1) Mr. Lukman Ali Raj

2) Mr. Imadudeen Attarwala

3) Prof. Mehdi Hasan Inayat Ali

Mr. Murabak, ahlan wa sehlan.

I shall discuss and debate all the above three of your reknowned alleged human 'idols' IF they are willing to participate on this board exclusively with me regarding my issues and concerns of Islam as an Arabized Idoworshipping Religion.

[mohammed_truthseeker]

Why dont you debate with Zakir Naik. Looks like he has all the answers. Never seen him stumped. May be you can stump him with your logic.

[anajmi]

You can't debate with Danish. He's got only three sentences in knowledge base. Pull up any of his post and you will see the same three sentences in different forms. You can't debate with something like that.

[seeker110]

I have some idea what br. Dannish talks about,and also br.z naik.
To put it in a nut shell Z naik talks about the past,whereas Br.Dannish has more to offer regarding the present and future.
Dannish has other means of making a living.He seems to have opened more than two three books unlike others.Even Baskins and Robbins has more than 32 flavors.How can anybody say I have read this one book and its enough for me for my lifetime.I need not look further.Shortchanging.

[berasiawala]

There is a divorce lawyer in bhopal who is famous for creating all types of divorces on the fly. He is a dawoodi bohra and has good ties with the amil also. For divorce there are no rules or shrariah or law as far as he is concerned. He can even create divorce among the happily married couples. Ask for him in bhopal and anyone will guide you.

[ghulam muhammed]

In bohra community it is very difficult for a woman to get her rights after divorce as the respective amils use their veto power. I was a witness to the divorce proceedings of a female bohra friend who after almost 20 years of marriage and with 2 children was unable to get any maintainence from her husband in kothar due to which she filed a suit in the family court which granted her a fixed monthly maintainence based on the husband's income. The custody of the children was also given to her after hearing the children's side of the story and hence she could get a fixed amount every month for herself and her children which is impossible to get thru kothar.

[ghulam muhammed]

Fri, Oct 17 09:24 PM

The Allahabad High Court on Friday said a divorced Muslim woman could not claim maintenance under Section 125 of the Criminal Procedure Code as a special law is in force to protect the rights of women of the community on divorce.

Justice V K Verma expressed his disagreement with an order of March 31, 2008 when another judge of the court had held that a divorced Muslim woman was entitled to maintenance under the aforesaid section of the CrPC.

The court was hearing a revision petition filed by one Shahid Jamal Ansari who had challenged the order passed by Family Court, Gorakhpur, dated June 3 this year whereby the petitioner had been directed to pay Rs 2000 per month to his divorced wife Anees Fatima, in addition to imposition of cost of Rs 1000.

The petitioner had claimed that Fatima had moved an application under Section 125 CrPC on June 27, 2003, much after their divorce on June 1 the same year, alleging she was his legally wedded wife but was driven out of home by him and claimed maintenance pleading that she was unable to maintain herself.

Dismissing the revision petition, the court, however, remarked that 'after the judgement of the Supreme Court's constitutional bench in the Shah Bano case, there was a big uproar in the country. Consequently, Parliament enacted Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) with the intention of making the decision of the Shah Bano case ineffective'.

"After enforcement of the 1986 Act, a divorced Muslim woman can claim 'fair provision' and 'maintenance' under the 1986 Act only and she is not entitled to have recourse to Section 125 CrPC claiming for maintenance from her former husband".

The court, however, added that a Muslim woman was entitled to maintenance under Section 125 of CrPC only if she has been separated from but not divorced by her husband.

[berasiawala]

In dawoodi bohras there are no fixed rules for divorce. It is entirely dependent on the Amil and the boy and the girls influence in kothar or with the local goons. I have seen cases where the divorce has been granted in a day by hearing the plea of any one party.
Ideally the Amil should listen to both the sides and judge the case well before granting divorce but many amils do not want to take this botheration. They do not even want to give time for both the parties to reconcile which is normally the case unless there is some grave problem where reconciliation is not warranted.

Having said that, i would like to state that the dawoodi bohras are going the western way in creating divorces. Many divorces take place for silly reasons and the parents of the girl and the boy (especially the girl) try to throw their weight around and instead of making a possible compromise for saving the marriage and life of children (if any) they try to teach each other a lesson. The divorce is granted and then begins the round of searching another spouse for the boy and the girl. This becomes very difficult for both boy and girl.
The end result is not good, this is to be understood by the Amils and the kothar, however i think the salaam is more important than the shariah.

[Aarif]

Berasiawala,

You may be right that bohris go for divorces just for any stupid reasons these days. However, as far as I know from people who were involved in this unfortunate incidents, the kothar is strictly instructed not to allow divorces quickly. The case that I am aware of the Aamils involved were from two different cities since the girl lived in one and the boy lived in another after seperation. Both these Aamils tried hard not to allow these divorces to happen. I know we have lot of loopholes in our community but I would praise syedna when it comes to his stand in case of divorces. Bohris have invalidated triple talaq which is menace for helpless girls and taking other things into account, I feel unlike other muslims bohris have a better divorce system all in all...

[SBM]

^
Aarif
If the Aamils and Kothar would also intervene in domestic violence and spousal abuse then helping them to stay together would be admirable. But not to grant divorce and let the victim suffer is very inhumane. I know cases where there is no marital connection between the spouses, they live under the same roof not talking to each other and suffering, divorce in this case is better than prolonging the suffering.

[Aarif]

Br. OB,

I completely agree with you on that. If things are not working out than it is better to end them. However, I was just referring to cases mentioned by berasiawala about people going for divorces for silly reasons. In fact that is the trend right now in young bohris who just want to go for divorces for extremely silly reasons...

[berasiawala]

Well, i think its a matter of case to case basis. As i said its entirely on the amil to take action. Although divorces are not permitted straightaway but the community for a noble cause unless the boy or the girl is really intolerable or into unislamic activities like drinking/ gambling.
I have come across cases with people whom i know where divorces are granted in one sitting without giving the time for the husband and wife to reconcile which is normally the case. I have also come across a cases where divorce was granted for absolutely no valid reason.
There is a dawoodi bohra lawyer in bhopal who can grant divorce with or without justification to any couple under the sun whether happily married or not without problems. He is hand in glove with the amil of bhopal. Someone told me that his ad is also on malummat site.
The problem today is that in many cases girls and their parents do not bother to check the character of the boy, it does not matter to them if he drinks or smokes or otherwise as far as he is having money. Then after the marriage they realise that he is not leaving these habits and file for divorce.
I have heard from many that the previous mukasir saheb used to do proper judgement in such cases and grant divorce only when justified else he used explain the couple to reconcile especially if there are kids.
For example many bohra girls are working in call centres which have day/night and odd timing shifts, parents have no problem as far as the girl is getting a good moolah. However in this process the girl does not want to do any house errands or does not know about it as she did not have time to learn it which becomes the cause of many issues after marriage. Many of them want to continue such odd time jobs after marriage.
Divorce was most disliked by our Prophet Mohammed SAW. It has to be excercised with caution. However recently i think it is misused where the kothar, amils and even the parents of the husband and wife and most important the level of tolerance and patience in people especially the youngsters has gone down so badly that they do not want to just do what they want and does not like any interference or even guidance from elders. PArents today instead of seeing the problem from a macro angle try to support their sons and daughters and finally it leads to ego issues which ultimately leads to divorce.
My friend's wife runs privately a marriage bureau for bohras and she says that it is the girls who go and seek divorce today and its not that their husbands are really bad and if they are the girls knew about it before the marriage.

[aftabm]

I think these kind of divorce issues would not be exclusively limited to Dawoodi bohras. This seems to be a generalized phenomenon. So to ascribe it to just DB population would be unjust. This may be because of more emphasis on materialistic world (more so in bigger cities) and family issues gets drowned sometimes.

On a different thought, i would rather not have kothar poking thier noses in these private issues. Would give 'em more chance to extort money....

[Al Zulfiqar]

is it true that u need to w8 four unessesary years if ur husband is denying for a divorce.this has been told to me by aka Moula's shehzada himseld now how much truth lies in all this i really dont ava clue as they been tellin a pack of lies in the past too.if thr is any other procedure do lemme know.thank u

Dear sister Dark Knight,

my advice to you wud be to avoid going to our people like an amil at all costs. there is no need to involve them in yr personal matters. in my personal experience, 3 of my close family members or friends made that mistake and regretted it very badly as the opposite party was very strong and had influence with the kothar. the amils, shezaadas etc are easily influenced by money and social standing of the member in the community and will never give an impartial, honest and objective advice or take action based on the reality or facts. moreover they are not qualified and have no formal training in tackling family issues or marital disputes, unlike some other muslim communities in certain cities where they have an expert panel who have in-depth knowledge on islamic matters concerning these issues - they sit together and evaluate in detail, analyse and then deliberate on the matter, listen to both sides and take decisions based on the greater good of both.

what sensible decisions can u expect from a daras trained, assembly-line-production, brainwashed amil whose independent thinking ability has been suppressed, who draws a meagre income and is totally dependent on the free handouts and salaams etc from the community? to expect a balanced and morally sincere decision from such a person would be an exercise in futility and those who seek their intervention are either fools or those who are confident of swaying the decision in their favour.

my very fast friend had to suffer for 10 years and could not divorce his wife because her family was very well-connected in kothar and they had blocked him. they were living seperately and he was decent enough to have more than adequately provided for her with a flat and business of her own in bombay. meanhile, she had no interest in raising her small kids and he brought them up single-handedly while managing his business and never ever faltered in his moral standing. if he had gone to civil court through a lawyer he wud have been free a long time ago.

our entire priestly establishment is corrupt, mercenary, cold hearted and cruel, led by their leaders in example. they have no knowledge of the core values of their own religion or islam and couldnt care less about your problems. their only khuda is "MONEY".

Do not waste your time and efforts involving these rascal amils and so called shezaadas, get a divorce lawyer and let him do his job.

[Aarif]

Berasiawala,

As I have mentioned in my earlier posts comparing dawoodi bohra divorce procedure with the ones that other muslims follow I would say we have a better system. Atleast the boy cannot say triple talaq and get rid of the girl. Now rest of the things that you have mentioned are individual cases and can be debated either ways. I feel that it is better to have some procedure rather than not having any atall. I never said we are perfect. NO WAY!! But we do have some process in place and due to that some hope is there. Also, I am talking about one sided divorces where the boy just wants to get rid of the girl and the girl is helpless and wants to save her marriage... In such cases triple talaq would be a real menace... As I said it is a matter of perspective and I would leave it at that...

[SENSODYNE]

Watch these videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UCZt_0kmOw

Then this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGwvj8oo0g4


The are support organisation to help you get through this. Seek help from them.

[mohdsaifee69]

I am looking for Divorce Lawyer in Bohra Community (Mumbai). Please if anybody can provide me email address or phone number of any good lawyer for a Divorce case. I have already declared divorce to my ex-wife, and I have offered all what I had, and proposed for a mutual divorce, but she refuses to agree. Please help !!. Also anybody who knows the process of getting Divorce under the Bohra Community, please respond. Thanx.

[Conscíous]

Let me start with congratulating you for getting ride of that piece of pestiferous out of your life.. You have relief yourself, your children, your family & friends of the biggest burden in your life..
Here is how I would have dealt with that tumor..
If she is still living with you, I would bring a new women over and even take them into the bedroom, and let her scent cohere the bedsheets..
As you might not no, there is a new trend in our community were you can borrow a bohri girl to come and live at your place, without being married.. If I were you, I would jump on this train.. Who knows, you might even find someone you might like and keep as a future slave.. Take her to places were you are sure you'll bump into your wife, or her friends & family.. And if you have children, take them along.. And if this doesn't take care of your problem, will just have to take it to the next stage.. good luck