Banning of Ismaili/Wahhabi debate

[Aarif]

What is a bigot? It is a person who is unable to accept that views other than their own are legitimate and then proceeds to mock, insult and abuse those deeply held beliefs.

Excellent definition... Have you read the posts written by reformists against syedna?? They fall perfectly in the above mentioned bracket. Believe me they do abuse, insult the deeply held beliefs of abde syednas... This is precisely what I was trying to say...

This is what you, Muslim First and anajmi have been doing against Ismailies.
Neither Ismailies who participated here nor Orthodox Bohras fit this description. They defend their point of view but do not attack other religious beliefs as illegitimate.

Well the Ismailis were never defending their faith... They were defending their fake Imam like the abde syednas defend their fake Dai and the reformists bash them up. Have you seen the decrease in number of abde syednas on this forum??? All pro-pig, pro-frog, Jayanti, true bohra, Albird, Qiyam etc are gone... Only Gulf is left. But honestly no one bothers about that. The participants on this forum will in fact call it good riddance... In that case where is the respect for diversity and different faiths??? Who is tolerant out here?? The answer is a big NOBODY. And since that is the case why blame others for doing the same???

This was the case with Znanwala who was clearly presenting a case, which was an interesting, even if a bit unusual even for Ismailies. However, I believe that she was sorely provoked by the Wahhabi bigots, especially by continuous insults to the person of her Imam, whom majority of Ismailies revere.

In that case you might be the only member of ZN fan club on this forum. Because everyone else on this forum including the Admin were thouroughly bored with her gibberish.

If you found them to be great founts of knowledge and wisdom,, it speaks more about your own level of education.

Br. Porus,

I even learnt a lot from you... By demeaning them and me you are also demeaning yourself. Your humility and tolerance were your best qualities and I always respected you for that. But now I see that something has gone wrong...

Anyways I still respect you and would not like to debate further with you. You can have the last word if you want...

[Aarif]

The Isma'ili/Wahabbi "debate" was seldom anything more than emotionally stimulating. I think for some of the participants it became purely personal, rather than academic. While the element of personal appeal is important in any deliberation; the "debate" lacked factual accuracy, constancy, and any semblance of context.

JM,

Everything on this forum is personal. Everyone has an personal agenda.. If you defy that, you enter in a debate with that person whether you like it or not... Also, I am not sure which factual accuracy you are talking about?? I always qouted things which were either well known or came from a decent source. E.g. qouting Imaili beliefs from Ismaili.net is factual according to me...

[Muslim First]

BR. Porus

Perdesi kept on asking one word tranlation of "Salat"

What that could be?

Wasalaam

[porus]

aarif,

Reformists, generally, do not abuse or mock deeply held beliefs of Dawoodi Bohras because the majority of reformists share those beliefs. It is the reformists struggle to stop the abuse of those beliefs that sets them apart.

I agree that in their zeal to point out these abuses some reformists cross the lines of 'decency', and that needs to be restrained.

As far as bigotry is concerned, I would venture that no human being is completely free of it. We all fall somewhere along the scale of no-bigotry at one end and total bigotry at the other. Dormant bigotry can easily be aroused by 'professional bigots' as you can see all around the world.

Thank you for giving me the last word on this issue

[Humsafar]

Kalim, Porus,

Thank you for your thoughtful posts. At last sanity and intellect seem to be returning to this board. But bigotry and unreason will return too, sooner or later, as they too have a place in the human drama no matter where it is played out. The best way to deal with them Porus is to ignore them when they get emotional and abusive. The decision to participate or not to participate here should be your own and not governed by the behaviour of freelance and feckless wahabis. Also, I'd suggest that bigots are like invalids - their consciousness is underdeveloped - and if anything they need our compassion if not outright pity. They are the victims of a religion whose core beliefs are absolutist and totalitarian. All doctrinaire religions are founded on such exclusivist beliefs - its their way or the highway. And to that extent bigots are not all that wrong. It's moderate and liberal believers who happily ignore the ugly underbelly of their faith and are content with blaming bigots and terrorist for abusing and misusing religion.

Porus, you are right. Religion does not provide the tools for self-realisation. It translates the world for you through simplistic beliefs and rituals but cannot transform your consciousness. In fact, religions actually stunt ones intellectual and ironically even spiritual development. Kalim, I agree that the Enlightenment and Humanism have been important milestones in human history and we cannot do without them to the extent we want to create life of basic decency and dignity for everyone. But rationality has its limits, and Enlightenment for all its wondrous gifts has been guilty of fostering a mindset of rigid scientism - a mindset that shuns everything that cannot be proven as empirical truth. Correct, we need a new Enlightenment but we also need to go beyond humanism and beyond post-modernism. Orthodoxy, religious or scientific, must be transcended to the next level. This is the path of evolution of human consciousness, and this where we are headed, except that people stuck in their ancient and modern orthodoxies are obstructing the progress.

Anyway, it's good to see you guys back. And Jawanmardan, you too bring a sense of gravitas to the discussion. I do admire your contribution.

[Al Zulfiqar]

now this is starting to get interesting...

arif, your usage of the word bigot and your attempt to color everyone with the same brush is quite curious and disingenous.. here is the definition of bigot:

"Bigot is a pejorative term for a person who is obstinately devoted to their opinions. Often engaging in a rude and intolerative manner when these are challenged."

does that remind you of some people on this board? i have closely followed the ismali/wahabi debates on this forum and agree with porus's observations. it was Mf and anajmi who started attacking relentlessly, going to the extent of calling their imam a drunkard, liar, coward, kafir and god alone know how many other choicest epithets. initially znan gave detailed but patient replies trying to explain their take on their customs and practices, but when it didnt fit into the expected responses which the sunni's wanted, they started getting personal and making extremely derogatory remarks. one could see clearly how this was frustrating the ismailies, as the attacks were based on slander, lies and half-truths. when znan couldnt take it any more, she resorted to abuse and foul language, going down to the same level. isnt there a lesson to be learnt from this?

when u say that they are extremely senior members and they should be respected, where was their respect and seniority when they started abusing and humiliating all and sundry re: their beliefs? and if you had an open mind to learn from them, did u keep an open enough mind also to learn anything from the ismailies? whether i agree to their practices, customs and rituals or not, i was still fascinated by their take on history, beliefs, and interpretations. many of those beliefs are part of our bohra deen as well, only the syedna does not talk about any more, as much as he has given up all pretense of following our true beliefs as laid down in daim-ul-islam.

if the wahabi/sunnis feel they have to carry on their crusade against the ismailies, let them do it somewhere else on some other forum, if they can find one as tolerant as this one. no one is denying them the right to verbally annihilate each other if they want to, only not on this forum.

in your opinion it seems that the departure of these 2 extremists has made this board pointless, because of the way you denigrate the reformist issues, terming it only a continous running down of the syedna and his family. that is a rather simplistic and contemptous view and i wonder where your loyalties lie after that statement... i mean, you have been coming to this board as a reformist sympathiser, i assume, or was it just to support these 2 bigots hammering the ismailies day and night?

whatever people post on this forum about the present syedna and his father is generally based on facts, often derived from the ortho bohra sites. does that make them bigots?! do you agree that the ex-sayedna and the present one have taken us far, far away from our deen and are committing daily violations against our freedoms and abusing their religious authority? looting us, oppressing us, denying any voice to our rights? so according to you we are all bigots for opposing injustice, tyranny, and unreligious practices? when the syedna talks about islam, but practices something contradictory in reality, introducing daily new innovations (biddaa), we should keep silent, lest we be labelled as bigots? strange logic indeed....

by the same logic, anyone who talks about dead yazid, moawiyah, shimr etc. should be labelled a bigot too? for not showing respect for their departed souls? the ex-syedna was the cause of the divisions in our community today. we have to say that whether you or anyone likes it or not and it causes pain to his departed soul. by that same logic we should also stop teaching history because it is filled with references to villainous religious figures and evil rulers who must be respected because they are dead and long gone.

it is very disappointing that you have been on this board for so long, and now, frustrated at your friends being banned, have reduced the entire reformist exercise by classifying it as 2 words, flinging mud on "kothar and syedna".!!!! what has happened to the mature, balanced individual we have known initially as 'arif'', until he joined the bandwagon of those 2 bigots?

[Humsafar]

Aarif,

Reformists ridicule the kothar and its system, and sometimes are carried away to calling Sayedna names. They do not deride and make fun of Bohra beliefs, in fact they care more about these beliefs than the orthodox. Calling them bigots is unjustified.

[Aarif]

Reformists, generally, do not abuse or mock deeply held beliefs of Dawoodi Bohras because the majority of reformists share those beliefs.

I did not wanted to reply but could not help it.

For abde syednas, their Dai is the most deeply held belief. Saying anything against their Dai is same as insulting their faith. The reformists curse syedna left, right and center. Hence, they do abuse deeply held beliefs of abde syednas... In fact they go one step further by abusing his dead father as well to make sure that they nail it from all corners...

[Al Zulfiqar]

For abde syednas, their Dai is the most deeply held belief. Saying anything against their Dai is same as insulting their faith. The reformists curse syedna left, right and center. Hence, they do abuse deeply held beliefs of abde syednas... .

arif, are u aware that the statement you have just made is not rooted in fact from our past history? up until the 49th and 50th dai's, the dai's were not god like figures to be done sajda to or that you couldnt speak against them. please read the article written by Saifuddinbhai Insaf on this board about Sir Adamjee Peerbhai, where one of the amils in bombay had demanded his money back from the syedna of his time and had threatened to take him to court. so was that amil insulting his own and the bohras' faith?

you are feeding into and unconsciously supporting the lies and misinformation that the past 2 syednas have insidiously planted into the minds of our bohras that they cannot be opposed or spoken against.

[Humsafar]

The abuse of Sayedna is wrong and must be condemned. People do it out frustration and ignorance and most importantly as victims of his cruel regime. This does not make them bigots. If iraqis or Afghanis call Baby Bush names, does it make them bigots. The abuse is not gratuitous - there is a history of pain and suffering behind it. Zulfiqar is right, in blindly defending your mentors - who by the way have taught you nothing but to hug the pillars more tightly - you seem to have forgotten that you too are a reformist and once spoke up for its cause. What happened to your priorities?

[kalim]

Criticism of the sayedna and his administration does not constitute bigotry. Also, challenging someones deeply held views does not constitute bigotry either. If this was the case then no social reform would be possible at all. Any leader will be deeply respected by at least a few people and so criticism of that leader would become impossible. Say someone is the follower of the Aga Khan or the Sayedna. We can not discriminate against them simply because of that. We can criticize the leaders but not cause any harm to the followers. If the followers are offended by criticism of their leaders, then they need to learn to live with it. They can not expect everyone to share their views. Hence, I do not agree that Muslim First or Anajmi should not be allowed to insult the Aga Khan. The Aga Khan may be the imam for the Ismailis, but that does not mean he needs to be respected by others, or that his claims should be taken at face value. All this "respect religious feelings" nonsense needs to be discarded. Everyone must be ready for free exchange in the market of ideas. There should not be any sacred cows.

However, this is a progressive dawoodi-bohra board. Discussing wahabbi/ismaili issues all the time is not the aim of this board. Also, for reasons of prudence we should not abuse or use foul language for the Sayedna. I would suggest people to think in terms of a legal case: lawyers do not call each other names, but present evidence for their case. Let us do the same. Name calling is childish and alienates people from our cause.

[Aarif]

i have closely followed the ismali/wahabi debates on this forum and agree with porus's observations. it was Mf and anajmi who started attacking relentlessly, going to the extent of calling their imam a drunkard, liar, coward, kafir and god alone know how many other choicest epithets.

Br. AZ,

Don't you think the reformists do the same with syedna??? If you will go through the posts in Bohras and Reforms you will find quiet a few words abusing syedna to the most demeaning level... And this happens on a daily basis...

initially znan gave detailed but patient replies trying to explain their take on their customs and practices, but when it didnt fit into the expected responses which the sunni's wanted, they started getting personal and making extremely derogatory remarks. one could see clearly how this was frustrating the ismailies, as the attacks were based on slander, lies and half-truths. when znan couldnt take it any more, she resorted to abuse and foul language, going down to the same level. isnt there a lesson to be learnt from this?

Well ZN came much later to the forum. Ismailis like Turbo were already abusing the ones participating in debates using all possible abuses pointed to their wives and mothers. So the abuse was two sided and the Ismailis were nowhere behind in that. We never had any problems with people like JM who is a decent person and does not involve himself in mud slinging... Also, we never had any problem with the Ismaili faith. We had problems when they tried to justify it using Quran... I am sure you would give the same treatment to abde syednas if they justify the doing of their Moula using Quran...

and if you had an open mind to learn from them, did u keep an open enough mind also to learn anything from the ismailies? whether i agree to their practices, customs and rituals or not, i was still fascinated by their take on history, beliefs, and interpretations. many of those beliefs are part of our bohra deen as well, only the syedna does not talk about any more, as much as he has given up all pretense of following our true beliefs as laid down in daim-ul-islam.

Again as I said I do not have problem with Ismaili faith. The problem is with their lying and truth evading strategies to protect their fake Imam... People like Pardesi did not even leave holy Quran to protect his Imam. According to him if the Quran does not provide enough evidence to meet their claims than it is corrupt... It was JM who called their bluff by admitting that Ismailis use the same Quran as rest of the world...

in your opinion it seems that the departure of these 2 extremists has made this board pointless, because of the way you denigrate the reformist issues, terming it only a continous running down of the syedna and his family. that is a rather simplistic and contemptous view and i wonder where your loyalties lie after that statement... i mean, you have been coming to this board as a reformist sympathiser, i assume, or was it just to support these 2 bigots hammering the ismailies day and night?

Believe me I am equally against syedna and kothar just like you... And I do not believe in hammering the Ismailis... I only kick butts of liers...

It is very disappointing that you have been on this board for so long, and now, frustrated at your friends being banned, have reduced the entire reformist exercise by classifying it as 2 words, flinging mud on "kothar and syedna".!!!! what has happened to the mature, balanced individual we have known initially as 'arif'', until he joined the bandwagon of those 2 bigots?

Br. AZ,

I have no intention of demeaning the reform movement in general. It is just that I feel all the people should be given freedom on this forum. My suggestion is that if people find Ismaili/Wahabi debates meaningless they should avoid those threads. But banning people is not a good option. That's all I am trying to say..

[Aarif]

Kalim,

I agree with you that abusing any religious leader does not constitute bigotry.. And that's precisely what I am trying to prove. Anajmi and Muslim First only criticized and abused Aga Khan. They did not have any problems with Ismailis or their past Imams. However they were branded as bigots writing against Ismaili Imam. So if abusing a religious leader is bigotary than the bohras abusing syedna are bigots. I am just trying to draw an analogy out here as to why criticizing or abusing a religious leader results in ban of members in one forum when it is allowed in another???

[Al Zulfiqar]

arif,

you have stated yr case very powerfully. i accept it. let us all just move on. dont u think that this board needs to get back on track and start concentrating on BOHRA issues for once?

btw, turbo was the worst representative for a generally very practical and wise community. he went on a crazy vendetta in his eagerness to show the wahabi's in the worst light, and in the process lost all balance and reason.

as for not abusing the syedna, i suppose we all have take extra care to abide by that rule, myself included, no matter what the provocation.

thanks for taking criticism in a constructive spirit.

[porus]

Challenging beliefs in order to clarify or learn more about them or the criticism of the (authentically verified) behavior of leaders is not bigotry, per se. You need to look at what led to the criticism and abuse. In the case we are discussing it is the mindset of bigots, who deny the validity of all other viewpoints except their own and then proceed to bully and abuse in the most vulgar manner conceivable.

This bigotry claims lives of minorities across the globe and torching of their places of worship. In addition, it leads to the erosion of civil rights of citizens in some Muslim countries, notably Pakistan, where Ahmadiyyas have been declared non-Muslim and barred from civil service and public teaching positions. This bigotry in Pakistan is the direct result of the Wahhabisation of powerful governing elite's supporters.

Muslim First tried to derail this thread by asking about salaat. We need not humor him.

[Average Bohra]

abusing any religious leader does not constitute bigotry..

There is a stark difference between criticism and abuse and it is possible to have a civil debate and discourse without resorting to abuse. Let's not get too hung up on semantics here, we all know and understand bigotry and if one needs to agree on a definition then chances are that they are already inflicted.

[Muslim First]

Muslim First tried to derail this thread by asking about salaat.

Br. Porus

I respect your knowledge of arabic. Perhaps you will enlighten us in some suitable forum, sometime in future, one word meaning of SALAT. I am not stupid and I expected non answer.

Sorry. I am violating my self imposed silance.

Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

The Isma'ili/Wahabbi "debate" was seldom anything more than emotionally stimulating. I think for some of the participants it became purely personal, rather than academic.

It is not possible to have "debate" on marits since it will again sink into denial of Qur'an, ahadith and pointing fingers at bad Muslims. Why waste time and wear out our welcome. To me true Muslim is one who adheres to 5 founding principles.

I would welcome Anajmi, and MF contributing their points of view on broader topics; I believe the orthodox position is a valid one in that it presents an important voice whether one agrees with it or not.

IA in future. Not on this Bohra and reform forum.

Brothers Aarif, Porus, AB, AZ and others
Thanks for sentiments. I do have something to say but not now.

Wasalaam

[porus]

To me true Muslim is one who adheres to 5 founding principles.

We are all aware of what you consider to be a 'true Muslim'. There are others who follow seven or twelve or any numbers of pillars; and they are also 'true' Muslims.

I urge you not to participate on these forums. Your zeal to 'expose' deviants is not welcome here. Please take heed of why you were banned in the first place.

[Muslim First]

There are others who follow seven or twelve or any numbers of pillars; and they are also 'true' Muslims.

If 5are included then yes they are Muslim.

[Muslim First]

I urge you not to participate on these forums. Your zeal to 'expose' deviants is not welcome here. Please take heed of why you were banned in the first place.

Go Fish.

[Aarif]

Thanks a lot to everybody for this healthy debate. We must learn from our past mistakes and keep moving forward as Br. AZ mentioned.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Mf,

its been only a day or 2 that you apologised and came back. initially you appeared to be contrite, but have almost immediately reverted back to form. it seems that our welcome was misplaced.

i have to agree with porus. you are incorrigible and your apology was fake. it seems it was only a ruse to get back and start with your mischief again. we are not interested in hearing your dogma on who is true muslim, especially when it comes from someone who is not one himself. according to your mistaken religious beliefs you have only hatred and bitterness in your heart. you are a vessel which is full to the brim with acid, and that is leading to the corrosion of your own soul.

please remember this is a progressive bohra forum. if you have something to contribute here re: our issues, you are welcome. if you want to continue with your diatribes against those whom you consider non-muslims, pls find another forum.

[Muslim First]

Br.AZ

I have not done anything against my promise.

I asked one question on Salat
Instead answering, Porus insinuated that I was playing mischief. Then I said I will stay away from Bohra Forum but sometime in future might participate in other forums. Porus asked me to just go away. So I said to him "Go Fish".
Porus may have reasons for Anajmi and me not be on this forum but he is not Admin.

Listen Brother, if you want to ban me then let Admin do it. I have not insulted anybody nor called anybody names.
This time I am really taking break except posting links to some worthwhile articles. I do not want to be punching bag for you guys.

Wasalaam

[jamanpasand]

I am just wondering how difficult it would be for Anajmi and Znanwalla to live without this board

[Al Zulfiqar]

Br.AZ

I have not done anything against my promise.

I asked one question on Salat

Listen Brother, if you want to ban me then let Admin do it. I have not insulted anybody nor called anybody names.
I do not want to be punching bag for you guys.

Wasalaam

MF, quit playing these silly and childish games of acting like a martyr and crying like a baby.

what was the point of asking a question on salat on this thread if not to deliberately divert it?

where was your sense of propriety when you and your fellow bigot were using the ismailies as your pet punching bags? in fact that had become the sole source of your sick entertainment on a daily basis. now that you are deprived of it, your frustrations are clearly showing.

it is not upto me to ban you. the admin did, and if you persist with your monkey tricks he might do it again.

[jamanpasand]

AZ

I don’t agree that the punching bags were only Ismailis. In the process of defending their imam, they repeatedly ridicule widely accepted Islamic rituals and values for which Anajmi and co. deserve some credit for defending.

[Al Zulfiqar]

jp,

i do not think that the ismailies were ridiculing the practices of other muslims. in my opinion, they were offering their alternative version of looking at and doing things. that doesnt neccessarily mean i agree with it. anajmi and co. could have simply said that do not agree that the ismaili practices are islamic, in fact they have every right to say that they consider that the ismailies are not muslims at all and leave at that.

but no. they went on a mission to prove by hook or by crook that the ismailies are in fact stupid, their imam is a drunkard, womaniser, doesnt know the quran etc etc ad nauseum. every action has an equal and opposite reaction and with that sort of belligerence, the whole thing degenerated into a war of words, with personal attacks on family members, extraneous issues and unrelated topics being dragged in. the whole thing had become very ugly and gutter level.

any reasonable person will stop at a certain point and part ways, agreeing to disagree. both sides made it an ego issue and it became an endless and futile debate. as a long time member, you must be aware that mf and anajmi have ridiculed even the other shias, incl. the bohras, calling them ali worshippers, poking fun at the concept of panjatan pak, upholding hazrat ayesha to be right over and above ali, etc etc. i think most people here are open minded enough to listen to a fresh perspective but not when it is pre-tinged with mockery, contempt and me superior sort of attitude. according to these 2, only they are right, everybody else is a fool, moron, dumbass, non-muslim and kafir.

their entire existence on this board was not for debate but to heckle, harass, poke fun and basically to justify their sorry lives to themselves. the admin's decision is correct to ban both sides.

[porus]

al Zulfiqar has succinctly, and I think accurately, pointed out the slanderous disruption of healthy debate by anajmi and Muslim First. These two are on record as being on a holy mission to expose deviants, especially Ismailies and Bohras, and by corollary, of being pristine Muslims themselves. In this, they, anajmi especially, descended into using the most vile and vulgar language on this forum.

They are following in the footsteps of Sipah-e-Sahaba who have unleashed murderous rampage against the Shia and other minorities in Pakistan.

And they are both ignorant of Islam and Quran. Some may call them literalists. Well, they are not. Because they do not know Arabic. They are literalists of Yusufali, a Wahhabi-adulterated English translation of the Quran, to which many Sunni scholars do not look upon with favor, let alone Shia.

[accountability]

Arif: On one hand you critcise reformists for their language against syedna saheb, on other hand you seem to despise orthodox bohras calling them abde syedna. You did not elobrate your own stand, do you fully agree with current bohra administration and its handling, or do you partially agree and partially disagree.

Syedna saheb is our dai, and according to our faith he is the representative of imam in seclusion. There were 50 dais before him and his father syedna taher saifuddin. They were all dais with same status. Some of them were working people like tailor, merchant, artison etc. Daiship to them was a sacred obligation entrusted to them, and they took it in the same way. NO one disputes the religiousity of the office of Dai. The questions are about the bohra administration, and their attitude towards ordinary bohras. I have found that most of the practices by bohra administraton are devoid of human dignity. Very imposing and unethical.

Office of Dai, which syedna saheb represents, is above critcism. Most of the reformist (in or out) do not crticize Dai. Having said that, if Shehzada Malik Bhai saheb runs into trouble with IRS (internal revencue services in USA), One of the nephew who ran away with 2.5 million ruppees, or financial embezzlement by one of the cronies are critcised, despised and debated are very normal for a healthy society, even by a religious society.

Last year I posted the return by anjuman burhani/saifee, that was submitted to Revenue services canada. It was very obvious from the figures, that they were all cooked up. They had raised $600,000.00 in one year, which was not true. They had reciepted donation of more than $400,000.00. Reciepted donation means, that they gave reciept of that amount for tax purposes. Tax deduction for that amount would vary from 25% to 50% depending on the cieling. let me give you the figures, there are more or less 200 households in toronto jamat.(mississauga jamat is seperate) they only give reciept for sabil, not for wajebat. sabil for each household is around 700.00 dollars, so the total donation should not exceed $150000.00, if all the members are paying sabil. Now if some one questions the amount raised and finds it dubious at best, is worth questioning.

All the jamat members are appointed by the bohra administration, which presumes Dai's permission. Now if these jamat members are filing false returns, concocted and fabricated figures, where should the buck stop. That is why, people with open minds demand that there should be a mechanism to hold accountable local jamats, and for that matter the whole bohra administration. Which demand in no way belittles the office of Dai, or reduces its sanctity. In my opinion this does not amount to bigotry at all.