what is the lethargy affecting this forum?

[Al Zulfiqar]

is it only me, or has anyone else also noticed the lethargy prevailing on this board? in a whole day, i see perhaps a few new posts from members. most members prefer, it seems, just to come here and browse, see if there is anything exciting happening or not, which invariably isn't, and return back to their stupor. most dont even bother to write a comment or participate.

the sense of apathy is demoralising, or to put it in another way, the sound of silence is deafening. as the reformists themselves say, they find little of value here, some of them have commented here openly that this forum is only a venue for 'closet reformists' to come and vent their bile and frustrations here, since they do not have the guts to do it openly like the declared reformists.

those few who visit here regularly and contribute can be counted on the fingers of one hand. the rest are all silent browsers. from the open reformists i count only Hussain Ksa, Bhai Insaf, and humsafar. where are the rest?

if anyone complains, they are told that the reformists are doing much more than what goes on here and is apparent to us ignorant souls. the question is, then what are we doing here too? what are we spending time here for?

perhaps, one wonders, is it worth contributing anything here at all? seeking fame and glory on cyberspace with a disguised ID is a futile pursuit, tickling one's ego or imagining one is making a difference are hardly measurable yardsticks when one sees the overwhelming sense of apathy here.

am i a chivalrous but foolish don quixote here tilting at windmills with my puny matchstick? if so, i better leave post haste, before i am branded an idle madman.. no one would care since no is interested.

[ghulam muhammed]

Br. Al Zulfiqar,

I agree to what you say and I feel that at times topics are derailed which used to happen a lot in the recent past on ismaili/wahabi discussions. When I posted an article on the laanat issue on the Moula Ali thread and made my argument based on sheer logic and commonsense, people like Mubarak went on singing the same old tune on Innovative Ahadiths as he was on a hate campaign and only spewed venom on this forum. When an effort was made to iron out the differences and create a unity within the ummah, it was not acceptable to him. I discontinued replying to his bullshit because his aim was just the opposite to that of mine. I also realised that a vast majority of members had understood my message and were convinced as quite a few appreciated my posts and none seemed to tow his line. His arguments were based only on ahadiths which as you know are disputable and so I didnt want to drag on for months and make an interesting discussion into a boring one. So I feel that when we realise that the message is understood then it is of no use dragging it endlessly. This way the number of posts keep on reducing.

[seeker110]

When ever I see people slowing down I come up with something new and different,mostly to get the people to change and get out of rut.After bombay incident it was necessary to get our minds off to something else.I will continue to do that as far as possible.I do enjoy coming here.I thought I was member of a small group of people who did not agree with kothar.I am happy to see a larger number of people who see things my way. I still believe kothar is not just one apple its the whole tree gone bad.We need to destroy the tree with its roots.Sooner the better.Have gun will travel.

[observer]

I have been thinking about this forum for a while and like Zulfikar I am of the view thatt his forum only allows people to voice their opinions and vent their frustrations. If we are going to communicate the message of reform we have to communicate with the change agents who really matter in our community and that is the women and the lay bohra trader. All we are doing on this forum is preaching to the converted and sometimes we all have a good laugh. Our discussion is also waylaid by individuals who have been asked to monitor this site by the Kothar and interfere with disinformation. We also have to understand that we are not experts in religion except for a few on this forum. So there is no point in heavy duty discussions about religion. What we are trying to do is change the secular bohoras who are born into the community and would like to have a say in their community. We have to get information to them in the old fashioned way and into their homes through the print media. First of all I would hazard a guess and say only about 40 per cent of bohoras have facility in English and only about another 30 per cent can make a cogent argument in the written form. All those participating on this forum come across as smart intelligent individuals. They I am sure speak and read and write good English and understand the state of our community becasue they are educated and have an appreciation of fundamental human rights and can see if something is wrong. The people whose opinion we want to change do not come to this forum. We therefore have to rethink as to how we are goung to get our message across to the people that matter. This site is one vehicle and creates a general awareness and some nervousness for the Kothar because of the speed with which we can get information around. We have to do some of the following:

- Get the message across to the women and the lay men in the community - who understand but have no power to change. We have to get them to become informed and empowered;
- Start publishing the Chronicle in Gujrati and English in print form and start disseminating this paper through the mail. the old fashioned way. Most of the Bohora addresses are available in each town. If we send a sufficient number into each town to one person for distribution to the peopel he knows in his locality in an anonymous way we will get this publication into homes. This can be very effective in UK, Canada & USA.
- We should start collecting information on how much was spent by someone at a ziafat and what was the salaam and publish those numbers so that people understand what kind of money is being collected from individuals in the community;
- we could estimate how much money will be spent by the community at the Mombasa extravaganza which could have been used for another useful purpose and publish these numbers;
- We should have a gallery of rogues where you would profile all the rogue Amils and their mis-deeds with live examples from people albeit hearsay. Such information will keep them on edge and when an Amil changes location we can forewarn the new jurisdiction about the person;
- We have to have a family tree of this Kothar. There are so many of them but some of them keep appearing all the time in the pictures. e.g. there is a rotund white bearded guy who is always near Moula and looks like Sancho Panza, also there is a beak nosed tall individual who is always around Moula. Who are these people? Have a gallery identifying these individuals. They say you must know your enemy;
- We should be buying advertisements in newspaprers where Moula is going like Mombasa to tell the people that all is not hunky dory in the community;
- we should have a gallery of indivuals who are their henchman like Hheptulla in Nairobi
- we should be organized to provide leaders they bring to their festivals with information on the misdeeds of the Kothar. Like recently they paraded Kibaki and the foreign Minister Wetangula of Kenya. We should be sending information to them as soon as we see pictures of them. Wetangula is an Abaluhya and I understand studied law in India and there is a Heptulla connection. He likes money I am told. Kibaki too is looking for cash for the next election.
- write stories on the plight of poor Bohoras who do not have one decent meal during the day.

Such are my thoughts.

We have to steer the movement in a new direction and get our message to the people that really matter - the change agents. The way to do this is to get the print media into homes and provide information to families of the waste and control over their lives for them to see and understand.

[Hussain_KSA]

Brother Observer.

Good suggestions indeed. S. Insaf saheb is printing chronicle in English and Gujrathi. He should send it via mails too in PDF format like Bohra Journal of Udaipur.

The long white bearded man beside Mr. Burhanuddin is his son Malek Ushtar while the rolled white beard with big eyes and glasses is his eldest son Qaid Johar. Beaked nose man is his secretary Mr. Yamani.

You are right in writing that movement should start be taking grass root level people in to confidence. As Al Zulfikar has written earliar that how a mail wrote by him came back to him in circulation.

It is true that religious discuss should be avoided but one way it is the only option to know about our own religion. If you ask a young boy the names of at least 15 dai I bet he would think after rendering names of 51 and 52 for some time and would hardly add 2 or 3 more. It is fact and every one knows what the present days waiz and sabaq contains. (Brother Hozefa has posted some points from this year waez of Janab Burhanuddin). The new generation will forget every thing about the religion and its teaching. Day is not far when (like khojas) everything will be performed (like roza, namaz, haj ect) by dai and the follower need to pay only some % of their total income yearly beside singing in jamat "Ghanu Jivo" Ghano Jivo". (Like Ginan of Aghakhanis).

I also come to know there are many people on this board who want to write and participate but can not do this just beacuse of langauage barier. I would suggest and request some people of this board who are good in English to get that massage and re write here after reviewing it. I think Brother Al Zulfiquar and Brother Ghulam Mohammed are the suitable persons for this cause. They can creat a seperate email ID for this work.

[Humsafar]

Zulfiqar, nice post. There is no need to despair or get demoralised. The activity on this forum is like the tides, it goes high and low. This is one of those "down" periods. I've been on this forum for many many years and I've seen the apathy and indifference and also the prolonged periods of hyperactivity. It's all of a piece with what we call life. Another thing, we must understand the purpose and function of this forum and set our expectations accordingly. This forum is a meeting place, if you will, a platform where we all come to inform, comment and exchange views and ideas. In that sense it is a good tool but it has it has its limitations too. It enables all of us to "talk" but on and in itself the forum cannot produce any result or action. It is up to us to go beyond mere talk and start doing something. That is the real issue. In one of your posts you said that you were sending out articles from this site to your friends and family. That is just the kind of action we need from people,in addition we could also send out links to the various sections of the site and most importantly to the Forum and invite them to participate here. Spreading awareness about this site and forum and drawing them here and engaging them with reason, politeness and patience could be a good strategy. That is why it is very important that we reformists - of whatever stripe - conduct ourselves with decorum and try not to alienate the newcomers with strong language or by showing disrespect to the Dai. Yes, let's lay out the details of corruption, hypocrisy and perversity of the Kothar but without the emotion and name-calling. That is the only way to keep focus on the seriousness of our purpose and to convince the uninitiated that we mean business. (Here is a thread which exemplifies this kind of dialogue: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=4088)

Otherwise, we end up talking to the converted as Observer mentioned in his excellent post. He raises some important issues and lists great suggestions which can become action points. Let's see how we can implement these suggestions, discussing them and acting on them would be a good use of our time, energy and of this forum. Let everyone chip in with their ideas. As Hussain bhai has mentioned, the chronicle is already published in Gujarati and English but it is not mailed out to as many people as it should be because of lack of resources. Insaf bhai has been working tirelessly and, I might add, selflessly for a number of years to bring out the Chronicle and making do with whatever funds he has available. If we want to reach out to more people he will need more funds to cover the cost of printing and postage. Financial aid is an important part of supporting the movement. Those of us who can should make a regular and long-term commitment to finance the Chronicle. The Admin should open a new PayPal donation channel exclusively for the Chronicle. One can also directly send cheques to Insaf bhai. He can give the details here.

Actions speak louder than words. It's a trite thing to say but it does have a lot of resonance with our situation. When we all come together and take up a task, no matter how small, and work on it we could achieve a lot. If we commit ourselves to devote at least one hour a day to the reform movement - be it writing on this forum, sending out articles, talking to people about the reform issues, stir things up in your jamaat etc. etc. - and/or donate let's say a minimum of $10 every month to the movement we can get a lot accomplished. Then there will be no sense of despair. Action is the antidote to apathy. Let's come to this forum and talk about things we can do and then go out and do them. There is no other way.

One last comment, it is my conviction that if you believe in something then go ahead and do it. It doesn't matter how many people are with you, share your passion or appreciate your effort. Do the right thing, that's all that matters.

maiN akelaa hi chala tha jaanib-e-manzil magar
log aatey gaye karwaaN banta gaya

[Al Zulfiqar]

thanks humsafar,

the purpose of starting this topic was not to seek appreciation or kudos for myself. coming to this forum to express my views is the least of my activities to stir up opposition to the corrupt syedna and his administration. even if i leave this forum it will never mean that my passion will die out or my fire quenched. what bugs me is that in this forum there is an already existing excellent vehicle, but which is not being properly utilised to not only spread the message of reform but also to actively fight the evils of the kothar.

all we have are words and ego issues between members. the shia sunni subject is 1400 ys old. it has not been solved and will not be solved on this forum. neither will the issues with our community. the syedna and his leach like family are not even bothered with what we write here, as long as they have the numbers and the money those numbers generate. but if each one of us takes the courageous step of atleast posting links to articles from here to friends, acquaintances and non bohras we know, we can spread information and awareness. this needs to be done selectively and with prudence. i have a list of about 50-60 people to whom i send them. this includes muslims of all shades, hindus and even some christians who know about us in some detail.

as for the printed version of the bohra chronicle, i have personally paid for about 12 people from my pocket. i paid for them and provided their addresses to the chronicle and they recieve it without knowing who is responsible! whether they read it or trash it i do not know, the majority do circulate it secretly amongst their friends though. i came to know this through some friends. the copies that i have are made freely available to anyone who wants to borrow them, either to return or pass on to the others.

another thing we need to do is identify and group people from each town/area so that secret circles can be formed and ideas exchanged. eg. persons from mumbai, pune, karachi, bangalore, toronto etc. all of us from far flung areas, if we atleast unite into smaller groups, it will lead onto bigger groups. right now we are just voices and cyber id's. this informal grouping will lead to better understanding, respect and less animosity at the divergent opinions of others. presently people get into unneccessary arguments because they dont know who the other is and its easy to hide behind an anonymous name. let us first work to remove these small irritants and then come closer together. a lot of people are afraid that if their identities are revealed, troubles may ensue. if we are sincere to this cause, then we will have to learn to trust each other.

[porus]

As Humsafar pointed out, this forum has its highs and lows. However, if you eliminate the recent Ismaili/Wahhabi conversations, the activity on this forum would appear to be the norm. I notice that new members are registering but not contributing yet.

Some of you are of the opinion that we should not engage in issues concerning the religion of Bohras. But if you confine your struggle narrowly to financial accountability, this will be no different from the global struggle against corruption, which appears to be a lost cause.

The stranglehold that the priestly class has on Bohras can be loosened by attacking corruption of religious beliefs and practices; and by offering a real alternative to participation in Majaalis and rituals of life milestones.

I have observed Bohras enjoying their participation because social environment tends to put corruption on back-burner during these gatherings. There is a massive "I am alright Jack" attitude prevailing in the community. And, just as on this forum, lip service is offered condemning malpractices but nothing more.

Fear of deprivation of this participation is tangible and some Progressives have successfully tackled it.

[like_minded]

another thing we need to do is identify and group people from each town/area so that secret circles can be formed and ideas exchanged. eg. persons from mumbai, pune, karachi, bangalore, toronto etc. all of us from far flung areas, if we atleast unite into smaller groups, it will lead onto bigger groups.



Very good suggestion by zulfi bhai!

[Admin]

The posts on Ali are not on topic, we'll move them to the "Moala Ali" topic: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=4185

[Smart]

IMHO, the lethargy in this forum has certain fundamental causes. Let us try and understand the persons visiting the forum and underlying causes before we can work out the remedies.

The visitors to this website and forum can be classified as:
a. The committed reformists like Bro. S. Insaf. People like him, who have dedicated their life for the mission of the reform movement, will be nature of their work, be very few and rare. They are the helmsmen of the movement
b. Common reformists like me and many others, who are almost as convinced about the cause, but are unable to give a lot of time to the cause because of other (especially family) commitments. We would surely like to contribute.
c. The fifth columnists / representatives of the Syedna, who are here to monitor things, spread red herrings and sabotage any actions that may come through, or may be just ridicule. They are the most insidious.
d. Genuine but brainwashed orthodox Bohras, who come here to spout venom, then realise that it doesn’t work and they don’t have the intellectual or rhetorical skills to sustain and counter the logical onslaught, so leave the forum or just visit to read.
e. Non Bohras
f. The general open minded Bohra, who possibly is a victim of the tyranny, but does not have the guts either to come here and post or even speak out among friends.

[Smart]

I don’t have any statistics about the numbers in various categories, but my rough estimate is:
a category – less than 1%,
b category – about 15%,
c category – about 10%,
d category – another 10%,
e category – 10%, the rest i.e. 65% are open minded bohras.
I don’t mind being corrected if admin / somebody else can provide some data here.

[Smart]

Now let us understand why people come on this forum and what their expectations could be. Readers and others can contribute their ideas about why they come.

a. The committed reformists are the vanguard and they have dedicated their life to this mission, so they come to this forum for a wide variety of functionalities.
b. Others come here for a variety of reasons, the first and foremost is to get up-to-date, and truthful news, reporting, information and getting to the unvarnished truth after being separated from the propaganda.
c. The second reason especially for the common reformists is the feeling of community. This is especially true for those who live in cities where the reform movement is not organised and for those who are on the margins of the community or outside the pale
d. The community feeling that they get is virtual, nothing concrete, however this website has started a feature that will go a long way in building community feeling in form of the matrimonial section.
e. The fifth columnists come here to understand what is going on, who are involved and how they can keep close and feel the pulse of the reform movement and strike it at the right moments and possibly sabotage it.
f. We need not consider the motives of orthodox Bohras, who do it through a misplaced sense of piety, because they have been taught to say laanat on daawat na dushman.
g. Similarly we need not consider the presence of Non Bohras as most of them come because of pados mein jhankne ki aadat. Some of them like the Wahabis and the Khojas comes for their own propaganda. Either way they don’t matter, even though the propagandists make a nuisance of themselves.
h. The largest group is the common, open minded Bohra, who comes here to gather truthful information, community feeling and most important of all his motives is the hope that there is an alternative for him with a critical mass already in place so that he can easily jump the fence. It is the motives of this group that we need to understand and address. If we are able to correctly identify the needs of the common Bohra, then this forum can trigger off processes and activities that could transform our community.

[jawanmardan]

e. Non Bohras

That's a an error:

e. The fifth columnists come here to understand what is going on, who are involved and how they can keep close and feel the pulse of the reform movement and strike it at the right moments and possibly sabotage it.

In any case as a non-Bohra I'm fascinated by all things Bohra, your reform movement for example is far more advanced than in many other Muslim Communities, I'm curious as to why that is the case, as well as in learning about a fellow Isma'ili community.

[Smart]

Now that we have at least some of the motives let us now define the steps we need to achieve our long term goals. For this we may need to take the help of experts in the Armed Forces who are specialist is guerrilla warfare methods.

a. Define core groups in all cities. These core groups will consist of committed reformists, each member with a network of 50-70 common non-fanatic Bohras connected to them by emails etc. The committed reformists should be strong enough to withstand any punishments that the establishment may inflict and not collapse and disclose the full network.
b. These core groups are co-ordinated by a Central Board, which acts like the server in a WAN.
c. These core groups act as conduits for information both ways to and from the community.
d. The most important role of these core groups should be to build up a cadre of dedicated reformists in the next generation and to act as a nucleus around which reformation accretion can gradually take place.
e. A time will come when we gather a critical mass, collectively everywhere, when we come out in the open and challenge the establishment.
f. It is important to understand that most movements fizzle out because the mechanism to channelise the anger and the frustration of the common man does not exist. The best example in history is Bolsheviks versus Mensheviks in the Soviet History. Bolsheviks, though much smaller in number were ultimately successful in overthrowing the Czar
g. This is about the organisational structure, the hardware, we also need to address the software issues. The software part consist of the Bohra philosophy, the Bohra history and Bohra values to be taught to the dedicated bunch of reformists, both young and old. The truth and the software will be tools with which we fight.

[Smart]

However to achieve this we need to define our goals / vision and then define a game plan to achieve them. For this purpose we need a war room of experts, under the guidance of the Central Board.

Let us have a discussion on this brief note and some us can come together to go beyond posting here. In the earlier design of this website, there used to be a forum, where only committed reformists were allowed. That forum was not active, because the process of inducting members was not very active and possibly there was no specific agenda for that forum. With this sort of a plan that type of forum may become necessary again.

Was salaam