As far as flat earth is concerned, when I expect you to find out on your own, I expect too much so here is the explanation.
Question
Qur’an says that Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet. This gives an indication that the earth is flat. Does this not contradict established
modern science?
1. Earth made as a carpet
The question refers to a verse from the Qur’an in Surah Nuh:
"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)."
[Al-Qur’an 71:19]
But the sentence in the above verse is not complete. It continues in the next verse, explaining the previous verse. It says:
"That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads."
[Al-Qur’an 71:20]
A similar message is repeated in Surah TaHa:
"He Who has made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels)...."
[Al-Qur’an 20:53]
The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Qur’an rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.
2. Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface
Not a single verse of the Qur’an says that the earth is flat. The Qur’an only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.
Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Qur’an describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Qur’an is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later.
3. Earth has been spread out
Similarly, the Qur’an says in several verses that the earth has been spread out.
"And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: how excellently We do spread out!"
[Al-Qur’an 51:48]
Similarly the Qur’an also mentions in several other verses that the earth is an expanse:
"Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse"
"And the mountains as pegs?"
[Al-Qur’an 78:6-7]
None of these verses of the Qur’an contain even the slightest implication that the earth is flat. It only indicates that the earth is spacious and the reason for this spaciousness of the earth is mentioned. The Glorious Qur’an says:
"O My servants who believe! truly. spacious is My Earth: therefore serve ye Me –(And Me alone)!"
[Al-Qur’an 29:56]
Therefore none can give the excuse, that he could not do good and was forced to do evil because of the surroundings and circumstances.
4. Earth is geospherical in shape
The Qur’an mentions the actual shape of the earth in the following verse:
"And we have made the earth egg shaped".
[Al-Qur’an 79:30]
The Arabic word Dahaha means egg shaped. It also means an expanse. Dahaha is derived from Duhiya which specifically refers to the egg of an ostrich which is geospherical in shape, exactly like the shape of the earth.
Thus the Qur’an and modern established science are in perfect harmony.
There is a saying that in english that you should learn "Look before you leap" It is only four words but it will be difficult for you to grasp, so try your best.
Moharram
Re: Moharram
Yo' Einstein,
you think menses, stool and urine are similar to a pulse D'uh, you need a pulse to produce them !
"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)." Oh, wait a minute, don't take this out of context wait for the grand finale "That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads." now that proves that the earth is not flat according to the Quran ????
Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface and it can also be spread on a 2x4, your point is ?
You guys have been using such such conjecture to prove everything from the Quran having the recipe for Biryani, to nuclear medicine.
Do yourself a favor and seek secular education. Hadiths wil not make you Einstein.
you think menses, stool and urine are similar to a pulse D'uh, you need a pulse to produce them !
"And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (spread out)." Oh, wait a minute, don't take this out of context wait for the grand finale "That ye may go about therein, in spacious roads." now that proves that the earth is not flat according to the Quran ????
Carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface and it can also be spread on a 2x4, your point is ?
You guys have been using such such conjecture to prove everything from the Quran having the recipe for Biryani, to nuclear medicine.
Do yourself a favor and seek secular education. Hadiths wil not make you Einstein.
Re: Moharram
Brother Khairan,
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 2.378 Narrated by Al Mughira
I heard the Prophet saying, "The deceased who is wailed over, is tortured for that wailing."
Will Allah reward us for doing matam?
They were a people who passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned, and you shall have the reward of what you will earn. And you will not be questioned as to what they did.
Surah Baqarah aayat 134
I may have missed it, but it seems to me (on the issue of moharram) that you have not answered the challenge of whether the Qur'an explicitly forbids matam
If the Quran is silent on the issue of Matam then we need to go to the traditions of the prophet (peace be upon him)
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 2.378 Narrated by Al Mughira
I heard the Prophet saying, "The deceased who is wailed over, is tortured for that wailing."
Will Allah reward us for doing matam?
They were a people who passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned, and you shall have the reward of what you will earn. And you will not be questioned as to what they did.
Surah Baqarah aayat 134
Re: Moharram
You guys have been using such such conjecture to prove everything from the Quran having the recipe for Biryani, to nuclear medicine.
Herein lies the test of man! He can choose to ignore and deny his Creator, or he can choose to recognize and submit to his Creator in the ‘unseen’. He can choose to make his own laws as he goes along according to his own intellect… or submit to his Creator, and obey and follow His Law
Re: Moharram
As Shayba said earlier:
<B>Citing the Sunnite canon does not strengthen your arguments; it is by definition opposed to unique Shiite rituals. </B>
Abdulla first says:
"If the Quran is silent on the issue of Matam then...",
Then he goes ahead and quotes a verse from the Qur'an anyway. So which is it, Abdulla - Quran is silent on the matter or not? Make up your mind.
2/234 is talking about how everyone will be rewarded for their own deeds. So unless you are arguing that people perform matam for the benefit of other people (which is false anyway), what is your point?
<B>Citing the Sunnite canon does not strengthen your arguments; it is by definition opposed to unique Shiite rituals. </B>
Abdulla first says:
"If the Quran is silent on the issue of Matam then...",
Then he goes ahead and quotes a verse from the Qur'an anyway. So which is it, Abdulla - Quran is silent on the matter or not? Make up your mind.
2/234 is talking about how everyone will be rewarded for their own deeds. So unless you are arguing that people perform matam for the benefit of other people (which is false anyway), what is your point?
Re: Moharram
Muslim,
To say that the quran is silent on the issue of matam is a matter or interpretation (as is everything else). I have posted some ayahs at the beginning of this page the 3rd post), please see if you can make a connection.
To say that the quran is silent on the issue of matam is a matter or interpretation (as is everything else). I have posted some ayahs at the beginning of this page the 3rd post), please see if you can make a connection.
Re: Moharram
To say that the quran is silent on the issue of matam is a matter or interpretation
I didn't say that, Abdulla did. There isn't anything in the Qur'an that I know of that directly forbids matam. There is no question of interpretation there.
Regarding your earlier comments, it appears you have a problem with mourning in general. You claim verse 3/170 indicates we are forbidden from grieving the martyred.
Looking at the verses in its proper context, NO, it does not forbid mourning. The entire section deals with a particular circumstance - the feeling of regret that some people had that the deaths could have been averted. Read the preceding verse 168 where some were saying - "... If only they had listened to us they would not have been slain..." (The Shia do not feel this way, in fact they believe it was God's will that al-Husain was martyred). They are told finally in 171 - "They glory in the Grace and the bounty from God, and in the fact that God suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost" (The Shia believe al-Husain will be honoured with the highest reward). We are told not to distress by thinking that the martyrs actions were wasted, not mourning in general.
Secondly, mourning is a natural human reaction. If someone you love, a member of your family or a friend, dies or is killed, you WILL mourn for them if you are human. The Shia consider the love of Ahlul Bayt obligatory & extremely important, so why should they not mourn for them?
And finally, according to history the Prophet mourned the death of his son Ibrahim and he mourned the martyrs of Uhud. Do you think the Prophet was going against the Quran?
I didn't say that, Abdulla did. There isn't anything in the Qur'an that I know of that directly forbids matam. There is no question of interpretation there.
Regarding your earlier comments, it appears you have a problem with mourning in general. You claim verse 3/170 indicates we are forbidden from grieving the martyred.
Looking at the verses in its proper context, NO, it does not forbid mourning. The entire section deals with a particular circumstance - the feeling of regret that some people had that the deaths could have been averted. Read the preceding verse 168 where some were saying - "... If only they had listened to us they would not have been slain..." (The Shia do not feel this way, in fact they believe it was God's will that al-Husain was martyred). They are told finally in 171 - "They glory in the Grace and the bounty from God, and in the fact that God suffereth not the reward of the Faithful to be lost" (The Shia believe al-Husain will be honoured with the highest reward). We are told not to distress by thinking that the martyrs actions were wasted, not mourning in general.
Secondly, mourning is a natural human reaction. If someone you love, a member of your family or a friend, dies or is killed, you WILL mourn for them if you are human. The Shia consider the love of Ahlul Bayt obligatory & extremely important, so why should they not mourn for them?
And finally, according to history the Prophet mourned the death of his son Ibrahim and he mourned the martyrs of Uhud. Do you think the Prophet was going against the Quran?
Re: Moharram
Anajmi,
Let me also remind you of the story of Nabi Yusuf in the Quran:
<B>12/84 - And he turned away from them, and said: "How great is my grief for Joseph!" And his eyes became white with sorrow, and he fell into silent melancholy.
12/85 - They said: "By God! (never) wilt thou cease to remember Joseph until thou reach the last extremity of illness, or until thou die!" </B>
Do you think Nabi Yakub was disobeying Allah by grieving so much?
Let me also remind you of the story of Nabi Yusuf in the Quran:
<B>12/84 - And he turned away from them, and said: "How great is my grief for Joseph!" And his eyes became white with sorrow, and he fell into silent melancholy.
12/85 - They said: "By God! (never) wilt thou cease to remember Joseph until thou reach the last extremity of illness, or until thou die!" </B>
Do you think Nabi Yakub was disobeying Allah by grieving so much?
Re: Moharram
Sahih Muslim Hadith 2033 Narrated by AbuMalik al-Ash'ari
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Among my people there are four characteristics belonging to pre-Islamic period which they do not abandon: 1. boasting of high rank, 2. reviling other peoples' genealogies, 3. seeking rain by stars, and 4. wailing. And he (further) said: If the wailing woman does not repent before she dies, she will be made to stand on the Day of Resurrection wearing a garment of pitch and a chemise of mange.
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Among my people there are four characteristics belonging to pre-Islamic period which they do not abandon: 1. boasting of high rank, 2. reviling other peoples' genealogies, 3. seeking rain by stars, and 4. wailing. And he (further) said: If the wailing woman does not repent before she dies, she will be made to stand on the Day of Resurrection wearing a garment of pitch and a chemise of mange.
Re: Moharram
Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 2.390 Narrated by Anas bin Malik
We went with Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) to the blacksmith Abu Saif, and he was the husband of the wet-nurse of Ibrahim (the son of the Prophet). Allah's Apostle took Ibrahim and kissed him and smelled him and later we entered Abu Saif's house and at that time Ibrahim was in his last breaths, and the eyes of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) started shedding tears. 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Auf said, "O Allah's Apostle, even you are weeping!" He said, "O Ibn 'Auf, this is mercy." Then he wept more and said, "The eyes are shedding tears and the heart is grieved, and we will not say except what pleases our Lord, O Ibrahim! Indeed we are grieved by your separation."
We went with Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) to the blacksmith Abu Saif, and he was the husband of the wet-nurse of Ibrahim (the son of the Prophet). Allah's Apostle took Ibrahim and kissed him and smelled him and later we entered Abu Saif's house and at that time Ibrahim was in his last breaths, and the eyes of Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) started shedding tears. 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Auf said, "O Allah's Apostle, even you are weeping!" He said, "O Ibn 'Auf, this is mercy." Then he wept more and said, "The eyes are shedding tears and the heart is grieved, and we will not say except what pleases our Lord, O Ibrahim! Indeed we are grieved by your separation."
Re: Moharram
The Prophet (pbuh) did not prohibit weeping; but strictly prohibit was the act of wailing and beating oneself when afflicted with a calamity!
There is a difference between weeping and wailing.
The former act is natural and the later prohibited by the Prophet(pbuh)
There is a difference between weeping and wailing.
The former act is natural and the later prohibited by the Prophet(pbuh)
Re: Moharram
Abdulla,
He can choose to make his own laws as he goes along according to his own intellect… or submit to his Creator, and obey and follow His Law
Don't you wish it were that simple ? Good try though, since it takes all accountability away from you, God's creation. Don't underestimate your own intellect since it is given to you by the Creator, learn to have respect for it.
Moreover, your intellect will guide you to your own interpretation of His Law, as opposed to relying on a myriad of others' which you have been following, which have been distorted through the ages.
I'm not sure if one of your Hadiths will back that up though, in which case go back to the above.
He can choose to make his own laws as he goes along according to his own intellect… or submit to his Creator, and obey and follow His Law
Don't you wish it were that simple ? Good try though, since it takes all accountability away from you, God's creation. Don't underestimate your own intellect since it is given to you by the Creator, learn to have respect for it.
Moreover, your intellect will guide you to your own interpretation of His Law, as opposed to relying on a myriad of others' which you have been following, which have been distorted through the ages.
I'm not sure if one of your Hadiths will back that up though, in which case go back to the above.
Re: Moharram
Muslim,
No, Nabi Yusuf was not disobeying Allah, nor am I saying that the prophet was wrong in mourning Hamza (as). I am just asking you what Allah is saying in those ayahs that I have quoted.
Mourning is a human emotion and I accept that. However, how many humans do you know who have mourned for the near and dear ones for 14 years, let alone 14 centuries? OK, ahlul-bayt are above and beyond everyone else, so to show our love do we have to mourn for them??
For how many years did the prophet mourn the death of Hamza (as)? Why don't we mourn the death of Hamza (as)? Why didn't the prophet mourn for Joseph? Did the prophet love Joseph any less than we love the ahlul-bayt?
No, Nabi Yusuf was not disobeying Allah, nor am I saying that the prophet was wrong in mourning Hamza (as). I am just asking you what Allah is saying in those ayahs that I have quoted.
Mourning is a human emotion and I accept that. However, how many humans do you know who have mourned for the near and dear ones for 14 years, let alone 14 centuries? OK, ahlul-bayt are above and beyond everyone else, so to show our love do we have to mourn for them??
For how many years did the prophet mourn the death of Hamza (as)? Why don't we mourn the death of Hamza (as)? Why didn't the prophet mourn for Joseph? Did the prophet love Joseph any less than we love the ahlul-bayt?
Re: Moharram
and remember the prophet forgave those who were responsible for Hamza (as) death just a few years later and we've been cursing people for the last 1400 years.
Re: Moharram
Mourning a person is not wrong, neither from a rational nor religous point of view. You can determine for yourself who you mourn for and for how long. And if you did mourn for a long time for Hamza or Nabi Yusuf or someone you personally knew, I wouldn't accuse you of going against Islam because you are not. But if a person doesn't accept the love and significance of ahlul bayt, the question of mourning them does not even arise.
In the verse above, Prophet Yakub would have mourned "until thou reach the last extremity of illness, or until thou die". So according to you someone should have told him 2-3 years was enough and it was foolish of him to have lost his sight mourning for his son?
Soon after the events of Ashura, Zainab gathered her family and held majlis' where mourning and matam was performed. Imam Zainul Abideen is said to have mourned his whole life. Similarly the Imams after them kept alive the memory of Husain in this way. For the Shia, the precedents are there for them to continue the commemoration - once a year at least. Who are you to set an expiry date for mourning? You are trying to find something in the Quran that will enforce your opinion, but there isn't.
and remember the prophet forgave those who were responsible for Hamza (as) death just a few years later and we've been cursing people for the last 1400 years.
Do you remember WHY and when they were forgiven? Because after the conquest of Mecca externally at least they were remorseful of their actions and they accepted Islam.
By the way, the story of Nabi Yusuf actually has a happy ending - you might want to read the rest of it.
In the verse above, Prophet Yakub would have mourned "until thou reach the last extremity of illness, or until thou die". So according to you someone should have told him 2-3 years was enough and it was foolish of him to have lost his sight mourning for his son?
Soon after the events of Ashura, Zainab gathered her family and held majlis' where mourning and matam was performed. Imam Zainul Abideen is said to have mourned his whole life. Similarly the Imams after them kept alive the memory of Husain in this way. For the Shia, the precedents are there for them to continue the commemoration - once a year at least. Who are you to set an expiry date for mourning? You are trying to find something in the Quran that will enforce your opinion, but there isn't.
and remember the prophet forgave those who were responsible for Hamza (as) death just a few years later and we've been cursing people for the last 1400 years.
Do you remember WHY and when they were forgiven? Because after the conquest of Mecca externally at least they were remorseful of their actions and they accepted Islam.
By the way, the story of Nabi Yusuf actually has a happy ending - you might want to read the rest of it.
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ponga bhori
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Re: Moharram
Prophet Yakub was not mourning for his DEAD but. for MISSING son.So probably he was allowed to mourn for so long.
Re: Moharram
Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions were able to adjust their beliefs .......n depending on the circumstances.
Don't ever say that again, it makes no sense
What do you mean it makes no sense? Muhammad was smart, even if you look at the order of revelation of the Quran from a purely non-religious stand point, look how many things were changed and reworked in the Quran. The proof is in the book, its up to you to admit to the facts, its up to you if you want to be blind to the fact that Muhammad was a first rate manager who knew how to make people work together and get things accomplished for the betterment of society.
The hadith should all be BURNED
When do you intend to say the same for quraan?
Sorry, that was taking it to far - they shouldn't be burned (it was said in a fit of uncalled for rage), they should be put into a museum and looked at and studied so people can realize the childish notions of "the way" that may or may not have been "way of the prophet". The hadith haven't done anything for the betterment of Islam, they make it way too dogmatic and prevent the growth of individuals. In the hadith there are way to many contradictions to be mentioned, and most of the stuff isn't even relevant today, the customs are from 1400 years ago when the world was a very different place. If one takes a look at the Quran, it is def. a very dynamic text which allows for growth and progress - but the hadith are just the opposite - the limit growth and progress by putting arbitrary restrictions on individuals.
Also, in regard to the "pure" muslim countries - give me a muslim country, except for may be Senegal - that doesn't persecute its own muslim minorities and restrict the freedom of its majority community. Just take a look at almost all the "Sunni" muslim countries in the middle east - Saudi, Iraq, and even in some cases Pakistan the Shia's are targeted just because of their beliefs. I've experienced it first hand, so I know its not just simple fabrications. And i'm not saying that "Sunni's" are at fault or anything - its just that the state of Islam is such that no view outside the norm of the extreme is tolerated and this stems directly from a fanatically conservative interpretation of the Hadith.
sh
Don't ever say that again, it makes no sense
What do you mean it makes no sense? Muhammad was smart, even if you look at the order of revelation of the Quran from a purely non-religious stand point, look how many things were changed and reworked in the Quran. The proof is in the book, its up to you to admit to the facts, its up to you if you want to be blind to the fact that Muhammad was a first rate manager who knew how to make people work together and get things accomplished for the betterment of society.
The hadith should all be BURNED
When do you intend to say the same for quraan?
Sorry, that was taking it to far - they shouldn't be burned (it was said in a fit of uncalled for rage), they should be put into a museum and looked at and studied so people can realize the childish notions of "the way" that may or may not have been "way of the prophet". The hadith haven't done anything for the betterment of Islam, they make it way too dogmatic and prevent the growth of individuals. In the hadith there are way to many contradictions to be mentioned, and most of the stuff isn't even relevant today, the customs are from 1400 years ago when the world was a very different place. If one takes a look at the Quran, it is def. a very dynamic text which allows for growth and progress - but the hadith are just the opposite - the limit growth and progress by putting arbitrary restrictions on individuals.
Also, in regard to the "pure" muslim countries - give me a muslim country, except for may be Senegal - that doesn't persecute its own muslim minorities and restrict the freedom of its majority community. Just take a look at almost all the "Sunni" muslim countries in the middle east - Saudi, Iraq, and even in some cases Pakistan the Shia's are targeted just because of their beliefs. I've experienced it first hand, so I know its not just simple fabrications. And i'm not saying that "Sunni's" are at fault or anything - its just that the state of Islam is such that no view outside the norm of the extreme is tolerated and this stems directly from a fanatically conservative interpretation of the Hadith.
sh
Re: Moharram
Barwani:
>Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions were able to >adjust their beliefs .......n depending on the >circumstances.
>>Don't ever say that again, it makes no sense
What do you mean it makes no sense?
WE believe Holy Prophet was PERFECT and there was nothing that he retracted from. His beliefs and teachings were firm and final. No question about that. Anyone who thinks Rasul changed his mind over matters of belief does not belong to us.
>Look how many things were changed and reworked in the Quran. The proof is in the book, its up to you to admit to the facts, its up to you if you want to be blind to the fact that Muhammad was a first rate manager who knew how to make people work together and get things accomplished for the betterment of society. [/b]
---------------------
Nothing changed in Quran. Indeed the proof is in the book. True. But who is being blind here? Holy Quran says:
15.9 We have without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
4.82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
As you admit, rest of your post was a result of your fits , so we will leave it at that.
Dilber
>Muhammad (PBUH) and his companions were able to >adjust their beliefs .......n depending on the >circumstances.
>>Don't ever say that again, it makes no sense
What do you mean it makes no sense?
WE believe Holy Prophet was PERFECT and there was nothing that he retracted from. His beliefs and teachings were firm and final. No question about that. Anyone who thinks Rasul changed his mind over matters of belief does not belong to us.
>Look how many things were changed and reworked in the Quran. The proof is in the book, its up to you to admit to the facts, its up to you if you want to be blind to the fact that Muhammad was a first rate manager who knew how to make people work together and get things accomplished for the betterment of society. [/b]
---------------------
Nothing changed in Quran. Indeed the proof is in the book. True. But who is being blind here? Holy Quran says:
15.9 We have without doubt sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
4.82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
As you admit, rest of your post was a result of your fits , so we will leave it at that.
Dilber
Re: Moharram
> look how many things were changed and reworked in the Quran.
barwani,
I'm fascinated by the certainty with which you make this statement. The only specific policy changes that I know of which the Prophet made were done in response to revelation. What changes and reworkings precisely are you referring to?
salaam
barwani,
I'm fascinated by the certainty with which you make this statement. The only specific policy changes that I know of which the Prophet made were done in response to revelation. What changes and reworkings precisely are you referring to?
salaam
Re: Moharram
WE believe Holy Prophet was PERFECT and there was nothing that he retracted from. His beliefs and teachings were firm and final. No question about that. Anyone who thinks Rasul changed his mind over matters of belief does not belong to us.
You can believe what you want, but Muhammad never claimed to be infallible in every respect, and in the text of the Quran, it has been said many times that Muhammad was a mere human. It was only in the case of the revealed religion that it is claimed that he was directly receiving messages from God, and can be considered infallible.
I'm fascinated by the certainty with which you make this statement. The only specific policy changes that I know of which the Prophet made were done in response to revelation. What changes and reworkings precisely are you referring to?
salaam
This is exactly what I meant, and you can look at these policy changes “in response to revelation” in many ways – looking at it from the point of view of a believer is only one way of looking at it – there are many other ways (such as looking at it from a historical perspective of what was going on at that time (i.e. wars, disputes, social upheavals, stability etc.) If a person were to leave “God” out of the picture (as an academic exercise.. or out of disbelief … whatever suits them) one can see a stark difference between the Suras that were revealed during a relative calm (during the early part of Muhammad’s life as a prophet in Mecca) and a time of constant war (when Muhammad’s forces were in Medina). Just take a look at Sura Imran (in the Quranic order it is Sura 3, but in terms of revelation it is a Medinan Sura and is numbered 89)
“O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.” (3.117)
This type of behavior would be necessary during a time of war when fear of spies was at its highest and any outsider could kill the chances of Muhammad’s forces winning the battle.
But now take a look at the tone of an earlier verse from a Meccan Sura where Muhammad was no great political threat to anyone and therefore did not have to worry about outsiders.
“ By the morning hours
And by the night when it is stillest,
Thy Lord hath not forsaken thee nor doth He hate thee,
And verily the latter portion will be better for thee than the former
And verily thy Lord will give unto thee so that thou wilt be content.
Did He not find thee an orphan and protect (thee)?
Did He not find thee wandering and direct (thee)?
Did He not find thee destitute and enrich (thee)?
Therefore the orphan oppress not,
Therefore the beggar drive not away,
Therefore of the bounty of thy Lord be thy discourse.”
Sura 93 – Revealed #11
There is a huge difference in these two Suras – one (the latter) tells the new Muslims to go out and basically help anyone they can and not to turn away people who are asking for help. And the former – tells the Muslims to turn away anyone that is not of their own community, incase of being tricked… Its not that Muhammad changed his mind about helping people.. it was a fact of the times that in Medina … there were many people out to get the community and the Muslims had to protect themselves, so they would not be destroyed.
It all depends on how one wants to interpret the Quran – One can interpret it as a continuous flow of orders from God to Muhammad or one can interpret it as orders that were given according to the need of the moment.
I personally think that allowing people (especially within the Islamic community) to look at the Quran from many different perspectives is very healthy .. that way one can experience the Quran in ways that they never thought could exist.
I do not believe that there is one right way to follow the religion presented by Muhammad, to think so would be foolish … it is the mindset that “our way is the right way and everyone else must follow it” that has made Muslims kill so many of their “own” and so many others that they consider to be infidels.
sh
You can believe what you want, but Muhammad never claimed to be infallible in every respect, and in the text of the Quran, it has been said many times that Muhammad was a mere human. It was only in the case of the revealed religion that it is claimed that he was directly receiving messages from God, and can be considered infallible.
I'm fascinated by the certainty with which you make this statement. The only specific policy changes that I know of which the Prophet made were done in response to revelation. What changes and reworkings precisely are you referring to?
salaam
This is exactly what I meant, and you can look at these policy changes “in response to revelation” in many ways – looking at it from the point of view of a believer is only one way of looking at it – there are many other ways (such as looking at it from a historical perspective of what was going on at that time (i.e. wars, disputes, social upheavals, stability etc.) If a person were to leave “God” out of the picture (as an academic exercise.. or out of disbelief … whatever suits them) one can see a stark difference between the Suras that were revealed during a relative calm (during the early part of Muhammad’s life as a prophet in Mecca) and a time of constant war (when Muhammad’s forces were in Medina). Just take a look at Sura Imran (in the Quranic order it is Sura 3, but in terms of revelation it is a Medinan Sura and is numbered 89)
“O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.” (3.117)
This type of behavior would be necessary during a time of war when fear of spies was at its highest and any outsider could kill the chances of Muhammad’s forces winning the battle.
But now take a look at the tone of an earlier verse from a Meccan Sura where Muhammad was no great political threat to anyone and therefore did not have to worry about outsiders.
“ By the morning hours
And by the night when it is stillest,
Thy Lord hath not forsaken thee nor doth He hate thee,
And verily the latter portion will be better for thee than the former
And verily thy Lord will give unto thee so that thou wilt be content.
Did He not find thee an orphan and protect (thee)?
Did He not find thee wandering and direct (thee)?
Did He not find thee destitute and enrich (thee)?
Therefore the orphan oppress not,
Therefore the beggar drive not away,
Therefore of the bounty of thy Lord be thy discourse.”
Sura 93 – Revealed #11
There is a huge difference in these two Suras – one (the latter) tells the new Muslims to go out and basically help anyone they can and not to turn away people who are asking for help. And the former – tells the Muslims to turn away anyone that is not of their own community, incase of being tricked… Its not that Muhammad changed his mind about helping people.. it was a fact of the times that in Medina … there were many people out to get the community and the Muslims had to protect themselves, so they would not be destroyed.
It all depends on how one wants to interpret the Quran – One can interpret it as a continuous flow of orders from God to Muhammad or one can interpret it as orders that were given according to the need of the moment.
I personally think that allowing people (especially within the Islamic community) to look at the Quran from many different perspectives is very healthy .. that way one can experience the Quran in ways that they never thought could exist.
I do not believe that there is one right way to follow the religion presented by Muhammad, to think so would be foolish … it is the mindset that “our way is the right way and everyone else must follow it” that has made Muslims kill so many of their “own” and so many others that they consider to be infidels.
sh
Re: Moharram
I do agree with Barwani to some extant. There are as many ways to god as many human beings. All 73 sects of Islam are like 73 pillars of a building which makes Islam so strong. It is Allah’s will that we divided into number of sects. If Allah would have kept all the answers black and white then there would not have been this division. Every sect has their own prooooooofs.
But the difference between all the monithestic religions is very less and there is a lot of similarity.
Remember when asked “What is best Islam”, Prophet said “feeding poor and spreading peace among those people you know and among those people whom you don’t know.”
I think no Islamic sect goes against the above hadit. So every sect has best Islam in it.
But the difference between all the monithestic religions is very less and there is a lot of similarity.
Remember when asked “What is best Islam”, Prophet said “feeding poor and spreading peace among those people you know and among those people whom you don’t know.”
I think no Islamic sect goes against the above hadit. So every sect has best Islam in it.
Re: Moharram
It is Allah's will that Islam be divided into 73 sects and it is Allah's will that 72 of those will land in hell. Are you sure you are in the right one?
Re: Moharram
Tsk. Tsk...
Someone better tell MF's Islamic Center in MA that they are allowing infidels to enter their mosques who are among the 72 sects that will land in hell !
1280 posts, and no common sense....
What a pity.
Someone better tell MF's Islamic Center in MA that they are allowing infidels to enter their mosques who are among the 72 sects that will land in hell !
1280 posts, and no common sense....
What a pity.
Re: Moharram
Didn’t you know...some sects of Islam forbid common sense. 