A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

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ghulam muhammed
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A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#1

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:44 am

A person named Burhan who was born into a dawoodi bohra family has left the sect and is on a mission to guide other bohras who fall into the trap of the present regime. He has launched a site 'islamhelpline.com' wherein he addresses various problems faced by the bohras. He comes from a conservative bohra family and he is the son of a Shiekh Mohammedbhai. Is anyone aware of him or his site ? Herein below he has given some of the reasons for renouncing the bohra faith and I produce below some excerpts which are very interesting :-

Mu' meneen Brothers and Sisters,

We are team of brothers on a mission to spread the true deen of Islam.
We ask for no reward and no thanks from our readers in the least. Our reward is in the safe custody of the Lord of the Worlds

Our mission is to proclaim the truth from the Holy Quran and let the people decide for themselves what path they want to choose. When the truth comes, falsehood will vanish by itself.

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 17 Surah Bani Israel verse 81:

And declare, “The Truth has come and falsehood has vanished! And falsehood is a thing that must by its nature vanish

Our duty is to invite our Bohra brethren to read and understand the Quran and realize that the promises Allah makes in the Holy Quran will definitely come to pass. The promises made by the leaders of the hierarchy will vanish on the Day of Judgment. Our mission is more to do with the hereafter and its accounting, rather than this transitory worldly life.

We have no copyright issues on our articles and encourage the brothers who read our messages to send them to anyone they wish … for the Pleasure of Allah Alone.
Allah is my witness, that whatever I am about to tell you about my personal life is absolutely true. The story is not sensational, nor is it one of a sudden change of heart, nor is it one particular incident which made me turn to Allah in repentance! It is just a simple, humane story and experience!

Allah has indeed blessed me with every possible ‘nehmah’ there can be… a healthy life, enough ‘rizk’, God-fearing wife, obedient and healthy children, brothers and sisters, parents, … there is not a ‘nehmah’ that I can think of which Allah has not blessed me with. And above all, Allah guided me to read and understand the Holy Quran and thus leave all the other beings that we bowed down to, and brought me to understand who our Creator is, and what are His Rights on His slaves.

I was born in a devoutly obedient ‘Bohra’ family. My late father was given the ‘laqab’ of sheikh by the leadership when I was probably an infant, thus I do not recollect the date. He spent all his life and probably all his wealth in the service of the ‘daawat’. He used to do regular ‘ziyaafats’ in our house, which obviously was considered a big deal at that time… Our whole lives revolved around the Syedna and his families, and my father was very close to some of the bhaisahebs and they were regular visitors to our place. Every year our holidays revolved around doing the ‘ziyaarahs’ of all the graves of the past Dais in India. We basically grew up in a devoutly ‘believing’ Bohra family … attended every ‘waaz’ in Aashura, attended regular prayers and the ‘big nights’ in Ramadan, regularly visited the ‘Raudat Tahera’, went to the madrasa in Badri Mahal, etc. That was predominantly my “Bohra’ knowledge base, and I just believed everything I heard in the ‘waaz’, even if it did not make sense. I was even enrolled to attend the Jamiat-us-Safiya in Surat, but due to some circumstances, I did not attend it. My parents used to force us to pray, and read Quran, etc. , but because I did not understand anything anyways, I just tried to avoid praying regularly. Just did all the basics and always tried to stay away from trouble. Whenever I asked any question to either my parents or my elders, they always rebuked me … basically I was told to shut up and obey the Syedna, and believe like they believed that he will guide us to Paradise.

I was yet in my youth, but I always remembered my elders talking between themselves about the bhaisahebs and how each of them was trying to extort more and more money from them in different ways, and almost always got away with it. I also sat through several of the negotiations which were done prior to the salaam of the Syedna in the ‘ziyaafats’, and could clearly see that these people were more interested in money, than the actual deen.But I was too young, and had absolutely no knowledge… just followed my father and my elders blindly and believed in everything they believed in, without ever using my common-sense or getting any guidance from the Holy Quran.

I was so engrained in the beliefs which I was taught from childhood, that I was absolutely closed to any ideas or knowledge which was not with the so called ‘raza’ of the leadership. We were taught from childhood that the Quran is a Book which cannot be understood by us, and it was the sole monopoly of the Syedna and his family. Only they were authorized by Allah to understand it, and if we tried to understand it, like the other muslims, we too would be mis-guided! I was taught that each aayah of the Quran has several meanings, and each aayah has hidden meanings (taaweel) which we just could not comprehend.

I was never allowed to ask any questions to the Bohra aamils or leadership or scholar, and this gave me a good opportunity to vent my questions on Islam. The scholar was extremely learned and a very kind and gentle man, who accepted any sort of questions with patience and answered each of them with ‘hikmah’ and wisdom,But I was so engrained in my ignorance from the little knowledge gained at the ‘waaz’, that I challenged the scholar in almost everything he said. I said that we Bohras were on the Right Path, and everything he was saying was incorrect!! I must have attended the weekly classes for almost 2 years … and everytime I used to challenge everything he said, always believing in what the Syedna and the bhaisahebs had said!He used to always tell me to read the Quran, but I always refused, saying that we were not allowed by the Bohra leadership, and would never read without the ‘raza’ of the Syedna.

I must have read a few Surah of the Holy Quran… about 14 Surahs upto Surah Ibrahim! By now, Allah had closed all the doors of ‘shirk’ and it was absolutely air-tight! There is just absolutely no place for any sort of ‘shirk’ in the Glorious Quran! And I had absolutely no doubt that what our forefathers had taught us, and what the Syedna and the bhaisahebs taught us in the ‘waaz’ had nothing to do with the Holy Quran… They just told us the History of Islam rather than teach us anything from the Holy Quran itself…. I was in a huge dilemma! And I remember I started crying profoundly in the solitude of the night!Its been now about 13 years since I took the Quran as my guide… and the Quran makes you realize that you are neither a Shia, nor a Sunni, nor a Bohri…. You are a muslim!

From my little experience in this battle between Truth and falsehood, I have realized that it is always the elderly and the women of the family who are the foremost in their opposition to the understanding of the Quran and to change their set ways… even though they may realize the Truth! May Allah have mercy on them and guide them to the Truth.

The irony is that one Burhan, son of Mohammed has challenged another Mohammed Burhan--udin. I admire Allah's sense of humour.

To review full article click below
http://www.islamhelpline.com/about.asp

GreatBarrier
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#2

Unread post by GreatBarrier » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:05 am

May Allah grant Burhan the strength to succeed in his mission...Yes We Can !

The thousand or so members of this site should help this lad by sending an email with a link to their mates...this we we can let 10,000 people know the revolution has began !....I have a dream where mumineen will one day not be judged by the weight of their salaam but by the character of their true faith !

GreatBarrier
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#3

Unread post by GreatBarrier » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:43 am

There are You tube documentary clips called History of the Quran from history channel and when you listen and understand it a lot of questions are raised around the way Bohras practise their faith:

1. Rasullulah SAW was a person who used his personal character and decency to win hearts and minds. When I see the current Amils and Bhaisahebs who will not even sit for dinner in a thaal of a common men, and will not rub shoulders...how will they win hearts and minds ?

2. Rasululah was a wealthy men before he declared being a prophet. Therefore he worked his way to earn a normal living, unlike the handouts and taxes that current establishment relies on.

3. His initial mission was to challenge idol worshipping and in the documentary the presenters describe idols in the Arabian sense was the inter-mediatory between Allah and the person, Muhammad ensured he destroyed those idols in Kaaba. Yet our Shia and Ismaili faith is totally dependent on itner-mediateries and salvation through Imams.

4.His major Jihad in Makah, he demonstrated justices and amnesty, which is also demonstrates forgiveness, yet our faith is so vengeful against Sunni Khalifas who literally have not personally attacked our Imams but we continue the ritual of hatred and gone as far as declaring saying Lanaats as ibadat.

5. It is generally accepted Uthman lead the exercise of documenting the Quran, yet we never give credit to him !

6. Another documentary where an old documented bible is discussed where it tries to question whether Jesus ever declared he was Son of God and concludes that people who did not have any association made up the theories based on their emotional; and spiritual state. I wonder whether our faith has been contaminated with similar views as we sometimes over publicise Imams and Diai's over the Prophet and can be perceived they are superior to the Prophet.

7. Quran is quite clear and explicit around Shirk and some of Ismaili/Bohra actions are close if not already Shirk. The sajada to Diai, reciting naats and madehs...what I mean there should be an easy distinguishable separation in the way we display and demonstrate our respect for Allah and his Prophet from the rest of our Imams and Diais. This will avoid anyone having been misled. Why so pedantic we are equally pedantic when we do not permit a menstruating lady touch a Quran hence any risk of contamination in our ibadaat to Allah or his Prophet should have the same caution.

Humsafar
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#4

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:41 pm

Excellent post GreatBarrier. It's good to know that you're beginning to realise the unislamic behaviour of our priestly class which reformists have been highlighting all along. It's the ignorance of bohras about Islam that keeps them in thrall of the mullahs and amils. The cult of the dai and dai-worshiping is the most pernicious of the ills that have been imposed on our community.

To your more general point, it is one thing to question the corrupt practices of the dai and his system but quite another to question the whole system of shia imamat. The concept of Imamat is integral to shia belief which evolved in the post-quranic era. To understand Islam in strictly literal Quranic terms is to go down the road to wahabbism. Although I personally don't much care about shai/sunni issues, but it is important that we understand Islam not only in the context of the Quran, its origins and prophetic tradition but also in the context of Islamic history that followed after the death of the prophet. It is a wahabbi tendency to limit and restrict one's understanding of Islam just to the literal Quran while dismissing its context and history. I'm not saying that shias are right and suunis are wrong, what I'm saying is that there is more to Islam than just the Quran. The Quran is marked by time and place and - apart from its perennial values - is a document of its age. But Islam is evolving - it's not the same Islam today as it was in the 7th century Arabia. Muslims today face new and varied challenges, and the solution is not to return to the "Qurnaic ear" which wahabbis want but to find answers in the light of the Quran and its perennial principles .

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#5

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:32 pm

It's the ignorance of bohras about Islam that keeps them in thrall of the mullahs and amils.
Unfortunately, as stated by Humsafar earlier, it isn't the religion as practiced by kothar that the progressives want to reform, but just the corruption of the kothar.

Fortunately, corruption cannot be reformed without reforming the religion. The sooner the progressives realize this and start acting upon it, the sooner they will start seeing some results. Otherwise, they are going to get nowhere.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:44 pm

5. It is generally accepted Uthman lead the exercise of documenting the Quran, yet we never give credit to him !
GB,

That is because most shia sects put their own spin on the quran. The Ismailis believe the quran that we have is fake and they have the real quran. The bohras are taught to believe that their Dai is the quran-e-natiq and they don't need to follow the quran except for the sake of rituals. They are made to believe that performing Salaah, roza, Hajj are nothing but rituals. Dai worship is the true worship. Hence there is no need to give credit to Uthman.
I wonder whether our faith has been contaminated with similar views as we sometimes over publicise Imams and Diai's over the Prophet and can be perceived they are superior to the Prophet.
This is done on purpose. A God you can see is more believable than one you cannot see. The dai wants to be that God. He has managed to fool most bohras into believing that. Thankfully, their numbers aren't that great to affect anything except the personal lives of bohras. There is a saying which goes like this - you can fool some people all the time and all people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. The bohras fall under the first category.

Humsafar
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#7

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:58 pm

anajmi wrote:Unfortunately, as stated by Humsafar earlier, it isn't the religion as practiced by kothar that the progressives want to reform, but just the corruption of the kothar.
anajmi,

This is a completely wrong interpretation of the reformist position. When reformists say they do not want to "reform" religion they refer to the doctrine of Imams and dais and the tradition associated with it. This we do not want to touch because we have no issues with it. But the corruption of religion and its misuse is a major plank of the reformist movement and we have been underlining this from day one. We want to see an end to the misuse of raza and misaaq, baraat, the cult of the dai and other unIslamic practices. We've been quoting Islmaili/Fatimid source books to show that these "religious" practices of the priestly class are corrupt and are not only against Islam but also against Fatimid tradition. Actually the "financial corruption" of the kothar stems from "religious corruption". Without getting rid of the former we can't get rid of the latter.

GreatBarrier
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#8

Unread post by GreatBarrier » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:37 pm

The concept of Imamat is integral to shia belief which evolved in the post-quranic era.
If rituals and practises has eveolved and it causes negative impact to the essense of Quran and the intent of the Prophent then it is not worth it...I mean where our practises are such that we cause defamation, segregation and enimosity within Islam.
To understand Islam in strictly literal Quranic terms is to go down the road to wahabbism.
And why is it wrong to take Quran literally ? Surely Allah is not playing mind games ! If I follow Quran literally and do avoid Shirk and do not flatter anyone who has not been mentioned in Quran, is far much noble than making up rituals and falttery just so that I emotionally feel I am doing the right thing and someone somewehere will protect me if I have done anything wrong..in other words we are looking for an excuse.
I'm not saying that shias are right and suunis are wrong, what I'm saying is that there is more to Islam than just the Quran. The Quran is marked by time and place and - apart from its perennial values - is a document of its age. But Islam is evolving - it's not the same Islam today as it was in the 7th century Arabia.
By discussing this I do not know if we are committing a sin but I hope by this discussion we do not conclude that Quran and Sunnah are irrelevant in modern times, and expect as similar to Nizaris, Ismailis and Ahamdiya where there is/was need for the arrival of another prophet/ Imam-uz-Zamaan to re-invent our faith.

If the Quran has instructed us to behave one way and we for our convenience decide no it is better to go another, challenges Allah and Quran.

I would rather those who are not sure if Quran is applicable state so and declare they are not Musllims as per the Allah and his Prophet 1400 year old intent and now decided to practise a new hybrid religion that is more applicable with 21st century events. And thats is why Bohras sometimes are more relaxed and correct if in the West are asked by non-Muslims asked what religion they are they and they would rather say Bohras, Ade Sayedna and avoid the word Muslims.
Muslims today face new and varied challenges, and the solution is not to return to the "Qurnaic ear" which wahabbis want but to find answers in the light of the Quran and its perennial principles .
Agree but let us be aware that we do not question and modify its intent and not make any unncessary mandatory fatwas which is destryoing ou Beleifes in Allah as he has instructed. Quran itself states this is mankinds last chance and Muhammad was His last messenger. No new messages required if I follow the Quran!

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#9

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:03 pm

And why is it wrong to take Quran literally ? Surely Allah is not playing mind games !
Quran is a complicated book. Certain aspects need to be taken literally and certain aspects should not. Allah has made it clear in the quran itself that there are a lot of metaphors in the book. However, shias insist that every ayah has a hidden meaning and these hidden meanings give an individual infinite room to manipulate the message as he or she sees fit. That is the reason behind these "hidden" meanings. These hidden meanings make salaah, zakah and roza inconsequential. Even faith itself can be re-interpreted. If you follow these "hidden" meanings, then you can consider yourself to be religious without following the commandments of religion.

Fatwa Banker
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#10

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:45 pm

anajmi wrote:
Quran is a complicated book.
Quran is a simple dated document as long as you take it literally.
Certain aspects need to be taken literally and certain aspects should not.
Oh...ignore my previous statement. Can you please identify the non-literal "aspects" the Quran grants you wiggle room with and what Arabic symbol denotes wiggle in the Quran :lol: ?

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#11

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:49 pm

There is no wiggle symbol in the quran. Although if you look in the mirror, you will see one. :P

Fatwa Banker
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#12

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:07 am

anajmi wrote:Certain aspects need to be taken literally and certain aspects should not.
anajmi wrote:There is no wiggle symbol in the quran

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#13

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:08 am

Although if you look in the mirror, you will see one. :P

Humsafar
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#14

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:42 pm

GB, you need to understand that I'm not justifying bad practices. Of course they have to be condemned and changed - that is the raison d'etre of the reform movement. But in doing so, I'm cautioning, we must be careful not to slide down the slippery slope of "true Islam". There is no such thing. Every ideology and teaching is a product of its time and is limited by the consciousness of its age. The Quran is no exception. It is divine and eternal in so far as it lays down perennial principles such as tawhedd, compassion, justice etc. It is temporal and contextual in so far as it is prescriptive regarding criminal and family laws, number of one can wives have, hijab, treatment of thieves, beating of wives, tolerance of slavery, taxing of non-Muslims, killing of unbelievers etc. etc. All these rulings are informed by the culture and context of tribal, pagan Arabia. They are not eternal nor universal.

The world has evolved since the Qurna was revealed. Improving on these prescriptive caveats in accordance with our more enlightened times is not wrong nor is it unIslamic. If you are NOT chopping thieves' hands or or killing non-believers then you are already acting against Quranic prescriptions. In other words, your already NOT taking the Quran literally. If Muslims were to take the Quran literally - without its meaning, context and history - this world would be a living a hell. You can see a glimpse of it from the actions of Al Qaeda.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:55 pm

Humsafar,
But in doing so, I'm cautioning, we must be careful not to slide down the slippery slope of "true Islam". There is no such thing.
I am sure the kotharis are thinking along the same lines. Hence their use of religion for personal gain. Bottom line is this, you do not believe in religion, you are simply advocating a different way to use religion.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:05 pm

If you are NOT chopping thieves' hands or or killing non-believers then you are already acting against Quranic prescriptions.
That is what happens when you start taking those portions of the quran literally, which are the livelihood of the enemies of Islam. They claim that these portions need to be taken literally. If you are not taking them literally then you are acting against Quranic prescriptions.

According to them, you shouldn't take quran literally, and if you do not, then you are not following the quran, hence you are not a muslim, but a disbeliever like them. It is similar to the "Chit main jeeta, patt tu haara" kind of scenario. A believer is wrong whether he follows the quran literally or not!! If you follow the quran literally you make the world a living hell, if you don't then you are going against quranic injunctions!!

Humsafar
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#17

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:13 pm

anajmi wrote:Bottom line is this, you do not believe in religion, you are simply advocating a different way to use religion.
My personal beliefs have nothing to do here. No, I'm not advocating any particular use of religion. All I'm saying is that it be looked at in larger perspective and understood in the context of evolution of human consciousness.
anajmi wrote:I am sure the kotharis are thinking along the same lines. Hence their use of religion for personal gain.
Kotharis are thinking along the lines of deception and taking advantage of people's ignorance. They are crooks and perverts that is why they are using religion for personal gain. When it is said there is no "ture islam" it does not mean you throw all its teaching out the window and do as you please. No, what it means is that take that which is important (i.e. value system) and if need be modify/improve on that which is contextual (i.e. family laws).

Humsafar
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#18

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:24 pm

anajmi wrote:... They claim that these portions need to be taken literally. If you are not taking them literally then you are acting against Quranic prescriptions.
That would depend on how the believer understands the Quran. If he thinks it is an absolute, unerring divine command then of course every injunction should be carried out in order for him to become a true believer. But if he thinks it is a book of divine inspiration and wisdom and some of its core teachings are for all time and all mankind then you're not obliged to act on its every word. The onus is entirely on the believer - he can't have it both ways.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#19

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:20 pm

Humsafar,

When you say,
But in doing so, I'm cautioning, we must be careful not to slide down the slippery slope of "true Islam". There is no such thing.
you are stating your personal beliefs.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:23 pm

When it is said there is no "ture islam" it does not mean you throw all its teaching out the window and do as you please. No, what it means is that take that which is important (i.e. value system) and if need be modify/improve on that which is contextual (i.e. family laws).
Correct. The Kotharis haven't thrown all the teachings of Islam out of the window have they? Although you probably have!! The kotharis have kept things like Salaah, Roza, Hajj, Zakah (which has been improved and modified to their advantage). There are many such examples and I am sure you know them better than I do.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#21

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:26 pm

But if he thinks it is a book of divine inspiration and wisdom and some of its core teachings are for all time and all mankind then you're not obliged to act on its every word.
Now you are adding your own spin. If I prefer not to kill all disbelievers, it doesn't mean that I am not acting on the word of the quran. It simply means that I have understood the quran better than you'd prefer.

Fatwa Banker
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#22

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:49 pm

anajmi wrote:
If I prefer not to kill all disbelievers, it doesn't mean that I am not acting on the word of the quran.
Shirk ! Innovation !
It simply means that I have understood the quran better than you'd prefer.
Ain't that what the Dai says too :?:

jawanmardan
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#23

Unread post by jawanmardan » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:36 pm

I would add religion by the nature of human existence itself in a constant flux and always has been and will continue to be.

When one examines Wahabbism one finds that it is in itself a 19th century innovation, it's fundamentals exhibit all the concerns of the Arab world in the 19th and early 20th century; Arab nationalism, religious identity, the countering perceived western supremacy. It was met with suspicion and ridicule upon it's emergence by the orthodoxy.

I would disagree with great barrier, Nizari (I would not equate us with Ahmadiyya) sought to interpret the Qu'ran and Sunnah in light of the progressive and liberal values that permeated our society. Balancing liberalism with a hierarchal community meant give take, on the one end liberalism encouraged the end of a full time cleargy, yet progressive and ancient Isma'ili tradition demanded an organised structure composed of part-time lay volunteers to take its place; to maintain community cohesion which is an ongoing and difficult undertaking for all minority communities.

The difficulty for reformists I believe rests with the very nature of Isma'ilism, and it's fondness for hierarchical institutions, in trying to do away with a "Da'i" and the Khothar; Reformists would stand no chance; instead it is as I have witnessed by some on these boards prudent to redefine their sphere of influence; confining religious leaders to purely spiritual guidance.

Fatimid culture and values re key here, like all communities; the descendants of the Fatimids; Mustalli or Nizari will continue to evolve in our ideas, values and beliefs that is inevitable; the fundamental core of our faith is unshakable, the question arises if we wish to be proactive in that engagement and steer or communities evolution, or whether we wish to passively be swept on by the tides of change, if history is any judge the latter will be far more painful.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:00 pm

Fart bank,

Here are two sentences for you. One is literal and one is metaphorical. I am sure you will be able to figure out which is which.

- Average, as long as anajmi is around, you will always be a fart.
- Fart, as long as anajmi is around, you will always be Average.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#25

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:07 pm

Now to show you where you farted. Read my sentence carefully.
It simply means that I have understood the quran better than you'd prefer.
Is that what the Dai really says? You ain't as smart as you think, are you?

Let me know if you still can't figure it out.

Fatwa Banker
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#26

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:16 pm

Shirk ! Innovation ! :mrgreen: Waha be better than you be ! :D

Humsafar
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#27

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:00 am

anajmi wrote:Humsafar,
When you say,
But in doing so, I'm cautioning, we must be careful not to slide down the slippery slope of "true Islam". There is no such thing.
you are stating your personal beliefs.
This is my opinion. When I say I do or do not believe in religion, it is my personal belief about religion. You said, "Bottom line is this, you do not believe in religion..." alluding to my religious beliefs. So your comeback is irrelevant and unnecessary.
anajmi wrote: Correct. The Kotharis haven't thrown all the teachings of Islam out of the window have they? Although you probably have!! The kotharis have kept things like Salaah, Roza, Hajj, Zakah (which has been improved and modified to their advantage). There are many such examples and I am sure you know them better than I do.
Salaah, Roza, Hajj, Zakah - these are rituals not teachings. You must learn to distinguish between the the two, but given you literalist mindset and the tendency to cherry pick injunctions that suit you, I don't see much hope. Yes, kotharis have modified the rituals to their advantage but in a way that goes against the spirit of Islam and the teaching of the Quran and therefore must be condemned.

anajmi
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:51 am

This is my opinion. When I say I do or do not believe in religion, it is my personal belief about religion. You said, "Bottom line is this, you do not believe in religion..." alluding to my religious beliefs. So your comeback is irrelevant and unnecessary.
From now on, when you post, you might want to clarify if what you are posting is your opinion or your personal belief and you might want to point out what is your opinion but not your personal belief and what is your personal belief but not your opinion.
Salaah, Roza, Hajj, Zakah - these are rituals not teachings.
Now you have demonstrated your understanding of Islam!! These are rituals only for the disbelievers. These are a part of life for those who believe.
Let me explain this :

Would you consider eating breakfast every morning, a ritual? Why not?
How about lunch and dinner?

No, these are not rituals.

Would you consider going to work everyday, a ritual? Why not?

Food is needed for physical and mental strength. You will become sick and die if you don't eat. Similarly, if you don't go to work, you won't see that paycheck at the end of the pay period. Salaah, Roza, Hajj and Zakah hold the same place for those who believe. Performance of these is necessary for the paycheck at the end of the here and the beginning of the hereafter. Performance of these is necessary to keep the soul healthy and clean.

You shouldn't be talking about the spirit of Islam!!

Humsafar
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Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#29

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:25 am

anajmi wrote:From now on, when you post, you might want to clarify if what you are posting is your opinion or your personal belief
anajmi, stop twisting words. Opinion about religion and religious beliefs are two different things. People with average intelligence can tell the difference, they don't need to be told what is what.
anajmi wrote:Salaah, Roza, Hajj and Zakah hold the same place for those who believe. Performance of these is necessary for the paycheck at the end of the here and the beginning of the hereafter. Performance of these is necessary to keep the soul healthy and clean.
Now you are getting ahead of yourself. Two things: 1) I never said it was not necessary, so there. 2) Performing rituals for a "paycheck in the hereafter" sounds more like singing for one's supper. How you trivialise religion and reduce it to mere rituals. It's your intentions and actions that keep your "heart and soul" clean - rituals can help if done in that spirit. But rituals for rituals sake or for that celetial paycheck is a waste of time.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: A Bohra renounces Dawoodi Bohra faith.

#30

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:56 am

But rituals for rituals sake or for that celetial paycheck is a waste of time.
As I said before, this works only for the believers and not for disbelievers like yourself.
Performing rituals for a "paycheck in the hereafter" sounds more like singing for one's supper.
Actually there are a bunch of people who sing for their supper. American Idol makes a living out of it!!
Opinion about religion and religious beliefs are two different things.
Yes, and opinions about religion from those that don't believe in it, should be read and understood in that context. You should always know about the personal beliefs of those providing their opinions. Otherwise, you might be fooled!!