is progressive a different religion....

[Smart]

^
The problem with you and other orthies is that like you are trained to think like George Bush in black and white, simplistic terms. "If they are not with us, they are against us". This is what brought the US to the brink, which Obama with his understanding is trying to undo.

Please remember the reformists are not against anybody. This is the false propaganda spread by the vested interests
The reformists are for transparency and restoration of the rightful deen, which has been converted into a money raking, personality cult by the vested interests.

Now do you get it? It is really very simple, if you have an open mind.

wat is rightfull deen..is syedna mohammad burhanudin your 52nd dai and head of dawoodi bohras..yes or no?

It is clear that you are confused, buddy. Deen was there before this Dai and his father and will remain after all his sons are dead and gone. Deen is set of principles as expounded by Allah in Quran ans sent to us through Rasulallah and as practised by Hazrat Ali. It is clearly not the same as this dai. The deen is for all time whereas the dai is fanaa, as much as you shout ghanu jeevo

[guy_sam2005]

like minded,
then wat r u

[guy_sam2005]

smart,
ok fine dai doesnt know deen,,whole so called bohras are on the wrong path..the simple question is..wats bothiring you guys..why are you so concerned...you follow wat you think is deen..who is stopping you...why do u have 2 bother with wat moula(tus)or v do????

[anajmi]

guy moron,

I told you before didn't I?? We have to pull others, who are stuck with leeches like you, out of your and your Maula's clutches. That is why the progessives are here. They are not going anywhere till they get the Dai and the Dawat on the right path.

[Smart]

smart,
ok fine dai doesnt know deen,,whole so called bohras are on the wrong path..the simple question is..wats bothiring you guys..why are you so concerned...you follow wat you think is deen..who is stopping you...why do u have 2 bother with wat moula(tus)or v do????

It is clear from your posts that you are as heartless as the establishment.

We are bothered with what you or your moula do because, we were born as bohras and the establishment controls the community. Of course, we believe in the Islamic principle of "la ikraha fiddeen", but the dai and his establishment do not practice that. We all have a family, a social network, a culture, a community where we would like our children to marry, a common set of properties, including the burial grounds where we would like to be buried.

Usurping the common social institutions and properties and then saying, leave us if your don't like us, is a very dishonest thing to say. It is not as simple as you say.

[haqqun nafs]

smart,
ok fine dai doesnt know deen,,whole so called bohras are on the wrong path..the simple question is..wats bothiring you guys..why are you so concerned...you follow wat you think is deen..who is stopping you...why do u have 2 bother with wat moula(tus)or v do????

It is clear from your posts that you are as heartless as the establishment.

We are bothered with what you or your moula do because, we were born as bohras and the establishment controls the community. Of course, we believe in the Islamic principle of "la ikraha fiddeen", but the dai and his establishment do not practice that. We all have a family, a social network, a culture, a community where we would like our children to marry, a common set of properties, including the burial grounds where we would like to be buried.

Usurping the common social institutions and properties and then saying, leave us if your don't like us, is a very dishonest thing to say. It is not as simple as you say.

sorry but i didnt got your point,why would you like to marry your daughter to some curropt and illitrate dawoodi man with ugly beard and who is always ready to rip his skin to make jooti of syednaa? marry her to some wahabi lol

and why would u like to get burried with jhannami DB...go and get burried with some sunni jannati lol

[Human]

sorry but i didnt got your point,why would you like to marry your daughter to some curropt and illitrate dawoodi man with ugly beard and who is always ready to rip his skin to make jooti of syednaa? marry her to some wahabi lol

and why would u like to get burried with jhannami DB...go and get burried with some sunni jannati lol

Please don't bother to argue haqqun_nafs. Smart made a valid point and you would need some wisdom to understand what he meant. The way you interpreted it just goes on to prove the fact that you're actually so foolish and anything that comes out of your mouth would be mere rubbish.

[haqqun nafs]

sorry but i didnt got your point,why would you like to marry your daughter to some curropt and illitrate dawoodi man with ugly beard and who is always ready to rip his skin to make jooti of syednaa? marry her to some wahabi lol

and why would u like to get burried with jhannami DB...go and get burried with some sunni jannati lol

Please don't bother to argue haqqun_nafs. Smart made a valid point and you would need some wisdom to understand what he meant. The way you interpreted it just goes on to prove the fact that you're actually so foolish and anything that comes out of your mouth would be mere rubbish.

haha no its just means u people are clueless what u are looking for...why not join majority of sunnis or shia and have all curroption free life.

[Smart]

HN wrote,
sorry but i didnt got your point,why would you like to marry your daughter to some curropt and illitrate dawoodi man with ugly beard and who is always ready to rip his skin to make jooti of syednaa? marry her to some wahabi lol

and why would u like to get burried with jhannami DB...go and get burried with some sunni jannati lol

Your post shows how heartless and inhuman you are, just like your masters. I used to think, that may be there is a modicum of intelligence in you, but you have convinced me otherwise.

Not all Bohras are as blind as you are. However the culture does matter when you marry. What about all your relatives? Neither you nor I chose them. Cutting off from them just because the wearer of shoes of your skin tells me or you tell me, is really not done. The hidden agenda in telling progressives to get lost is to isolate them and blackmail them into slavery. Most intelligent people are stronger than you think. Your browbeating strategy will not work.

[Human]

Please don't bother to argue haqqun_nafs. Smart made a valid point and you would need some wisdom to understand what he meant. The way you interpreted it just goes on to prove the fact that you're actually so foolish and anything that comes out of your mouth would be mere rubbish.

haha no its just means u people are clueless what u are looking for...why not join majority of sunnis or shia and have all curroption free life.

Exactly what I expected from you haqqun_nafs, another show of foolishness on display. Where's your partner in crime guy_sam? I'm almost certain that he's in Jamnagar as Syedna's going there.

[guy_sam2005]

no dude i am not in jamnagar..its been 4 years since i last did syedna(tus) deedar..just returned from a business trip..too much to reply lil time...

[SBM]

its been 4 years since i last did syedna(tus) deedar.

oh oh time for new MISAK, no longer consider Abde.........

[ghulam muhammed]

its been 4 years since i last did syedna(tus) deedar

No wonder you have more sanity then the other abdes on this forum and you dont resort to gaali galoch. Please keep it that way i.e. avoid the deedar.

[guy_sam2005]

its been 4 years since i last did syedna(tus) deedar

No wonder you have more sanity then the other abdes on this forum and you dont resort to gaali galoch. Please keep it that way i.e. avoid the deedar.

That doesnt change a thing...i am still a syedna(tus)follower............

[Humsafar]

That doesnt change a thing...i am still a syedna(tus)follower............

That is the root of the problem with orthos, they have been made into followers of "Sayedna". Nowhere in Bohra history or literature or in Islam you are required to be a follower of "sayedna" or any individual for that matter. Stop following Sayenda and start following your true religion.

[anajmi]

True religion? How about received wisdom? Why shouldn't they follow their own received wisdom? If they have to follow received wisdom, then let them choose who they want to receive it from. If you don't like it, then you receive it from someone else.

[porus]

True religion? How about received wisdom?

'True religion' and 'received wisdom' are synonymous. Neither is Truth.

All who say they are following truth are actually following their 'true religion' aka 'received wisdom'.

Truth may be available to you but you cannot communicate it to others, although many who experienced it (the Truth) attempted to communicate it and their 'Truth' became distorted into 'true religion'.

[anajmi]

That was a lot of garbage. How do you know "true religion" is not the "truth" unless you actually know the truth? So, in order for someone to claim that "Neither is Truth", either you have to know the truth or, as I said earlier, what you are saying is garbage.

[Humsafar]

My dear anajmi, of course you know better than to split hairs like this. Every "received wisdom" comes with it's framework and rules within which the "followers" or "believers" must operate. In the Bohra context these rules and boundaries are clearly defined and this what I'm alluding to. There is no free-for-all here, especially so with "received wisdom". You should know this more than anybody else. So pls stop capitalising on a point that I made in an entirely different context.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

And who are you to place restrictions on how one chooses to receive wisdom? Why do Bohras have to receive wisdom the way you think they should? Why are they not allowed to make changes to "Fatimid Traditions" as and when they see fit? After all it is simply "received wisdom" and not the "Truth" is it?? Received Wisdom can change over time and with times. Only "Truth" remains constant. But we are not talking about the "Truth" are we??

[anajmi]

You cannot have it both ways. You want to differentiate between "received wisdom" and "Truth" so that you can go outside the boundaries and then want to place similar boundaries on "received wisdoms"??

[Biradar]

The beliefs of the Bohras are well documented in the Fatimid and post-Fatimid literature. They are not open to major doctrinal change by the da'is. In fact, in the absence of the Imam, the da'i does not have the authority to change doctrine or invent anything new of his own liking. This was made amply clear in the writings of the early duat, specially S. Hatim (3rd dai) and the 19th da'i S. Idris. The situation of the Bohras is different than Ismailis: the latter have an Imam they know and see, but the former is in occultation. I do not think it is valuable to argue over basic doctrines. Individuals may practice differently, but as a group these are well defined and not open to change.

Anyway, in reality, the zahir beliefs as laid out in the Daim al-Islam, for example, are not so different than what the majority of Muslims practice. In fact, the Bohra practice is closer to standard Sunni practice than to Ithna-ashari practice. I think we should not derail the discussion by splitting hairs. We will not convince anyone and at the end people will continue to believe what they already believe.

The orthodox are doing a fine job of making a fool of themselves. Let the display of their idiocy continue.

[porus]

anajmi,

I have sparred with you on the issue of Truth many times and here you are again scraping it all up.

Let me give you an analogy. The US Constitution is an American 'true religion'. It is also considered by them their 'received wisdom'. It is not Truth. Nor are Freedom, Democracy and the American Way. But they are their 'true religion'. They fight for them.

But ask them to fight for Truth and Americans will crucify you.

[porus]

Biradar has just pointed out what the 'true religion' of Bohras is. It is in their scriptures, which includes the Quran, which solidified nearly a 1000 years ago. Just as an American will suspect if anything is unconstitutional, Reformists also object to deviations from their 'constitution'.

The 'TRUTH' is something else altogether.

[anajmi]

porus,

I am sure you must've heard about amendments to the constitution. Similarly the Dai has amended the Fatimid Traditions. And a majority of the bohras are ok with it. And why shouldn't it be amended? It isn't like it is from God that cannot be changed, is it???

I have sparred with you on the issue of Truth many times and here you are again scraping it all up.

Correct. And you aren't saying anything new. The truth still remains elusive for you. And am I supposed to just stop because you say so?

[anajmi]

In fact, in the absence of the Imam, the da'i does not have the authority to change doctrine or invent anything new of his own liking.

The current Dai claims to be in communication with the absent Imam who has apparently given him this authority.

[porus]

I am sure you must've heard about amendments to the constitution. Similarly the Dai has amended the Fatimid Traditions. And a majority of the bohras are ok with it. And why shouldn't it be amended? It isn't like it is from God that cannot be changed, is it???

Good point. The US constitution can only be amended by people's representatives following an elaborate procedure allowed for in the Constitution itself. That was only an analogy. Please do not stretch it too far.

Quran and its definitive interpretation by Imams constitute Bohra scripture. Quran does not provide a procedure for amending itself. Similarly for other scriptural underpinnings.

Take an example of Qadambosi. This is in violation of our scriptures including the Quran. Yet, the reason Bohras are ok with it is that, first, they have no say in it and secondly, they are cowards.

The current Dai claims to be in communication with the absent Imam who has apparently given him this authority.

He can claim to be, but must justify it with reference to scripture. Quran or another.

[anajmi]

porus,

When I ask people like Mubarak to justify their claim from scriptures you went into a lengthy discussion about "Truth" and "Received Wisdoms" and now you want bohras to do the exact same thing. Is it time for me to do a victory lap?

[Humsafar]

anajmi,
I know you know better, so I'm not going to argue for argument's sake. Besides, Biradar and porus have further elucidated on it so I've nothing more to add. As for amending the "Fatimid traditon", I personally think it could and should be done if the amendment is for public good, if it leads to a better understanding, experience, benefit etc. for the general public. The problem now is that Fatimid tradition is being amended for the benefit of a tiny group of people, in others words it is retrogressive, they are turning back the clock and that's why reformists have to keep referring to the "pristine" fatimid tradition. Amendment itself is not the issue, it's the nature of the amendment that is the problem.

[Fatwa Banker]

Now, now Porus, you almost dragged me into this Thank you for correcting the false analogy between the US Constitution and true religion.