Just a few simple questions to abde syedna fanatics...

[Al Zulfiqar]

omega,

instead of getting diverted into issues of wadhawo, which btw was not raised by me in my list of questions, can we come back to the original topic of this thread?

you had said that you would refer to the quran and our scriptures and then answer all the questions posted by me here one by one? or are you more comfortable discussing things like wadhawo? have you read the sticky on this forum posted by admin?

[Omega]

@Al Zulfiqar,

Brother i am very much open to any kind of discussion. and i think i was not able to make myself clear before. I will NOT be able to quote anything from Al Quran or any of the Holy books but will discuss on a general logic and what my thinking is. if you deem it fit to discuss further kindly mention the question and we can continue.

and i was just replying to concerns on Wadhawo because thier were some misconceptions regarding the origin of the same. But i believe you must have refered books from your treasure and must have realised who copied from whom.

and i also believe that all your questions point to a single point. but to discuss on corruption at a higher level will be more of generalising things. instead of it if we can discuss it point by point it will give us more chance to have a fair debate and might be some conclusion.

[Al Zulfiqar]

and i also believe that all your questions point to a single point. but to discuss on corruption at a higher level will be more of generalising things.

strange logic indeed or is it a classic cop out? your refusal to quote from the quran and our scriptures shows that you have nothing substantial to offer except your vague opinions in reply to my questions, which means you are no different than guy sam and the myriads of fanatics who come here. that is the most curious of the characteristics which define the fanatic bohra today -ignorance, denial that core reforms are needed and refusal to dig deeper into our authoritative sources and our history, not the crap being dished out by our clergy.

but let us humor you and see what is this 'general' explanation you have to offer.

[guy_sam2005]

omega,
when u tussle with a pig in mud.u get dirty while the pig is actually enjoying....

[Omega]

@Al Zulfiqar,

Brother in your eagerness to label me and all others as Fanatic no brainers you have made one thing very clear, that as you think that we are doctrined into believing every thing is perfect you are also the part of the same coin but just on the opposite side who believes that every thing is corrupt and nothing can be improved and its not even worth to talk to a Abde who is adamant on not quoting from Al Quran or any of the Holy scriptures just because he does not deem himself worthy enough to quote.

[bohri]

Bhai Omega - you wrote:

Brother i am very much open to any kind of discussion. and i think i was not able to make myself clear before. I will NOT be able to quote anything from Al Quran or any of the Holy books but will discuss on a general logic and what my thinking is. if you deem it fit to discuss further kindly mention the question and we can continue.

and i was just replying to concerns on Wadhawo because thier were some misconceptions regarding the origin of the same. But i believe you must have refered books from your treasure and must have realised who copied from whom.

and i also believe that all your questions point to a single point. but to discuss on corruption at a higher level will be more of generalising things. instead of it if we can discuss it point by point it will give us more chance to have a fair debate and might be some conclusion.

That's a lot of words - what is your point? I could not make any sense out of it. Bro AZ has listed a number of questions in this post - why don't you answer them directly?

[Al Zulfiqar]

Bhai Omega - you wrote:

Brother i am very much open to any kind of discussion. and i think i was not able to make myself clear before. I will NOT be able to quote anything from Al Quran or any of the Holy books but will discuss on a general logic and what my thinking is. if you deem it fit to discuss further kindly mention the question and we can continue.

and i was just replying to concerns on Wadhawo because thier were some misconceptions regarding the origin of the same. But i believe you must have refered books from your treasure and must have realised who copied from whom.

and i also believe that all your questions point to a single point. but to discuss on corruption at a higher level will be more of generalising things. instead of it if we can discuss it point by point it will give us more chance to have a fair debate and might be some conclusion.

That's a lot of words - what is your point? I could not make any sense out of it. Bro AZ has listed a number of questions in this post - why don't you answer them directly?

brother bohri, you've hit the nail on the head!

[Omega]

Brother Bohri,

Salaam,

you should have waited for some time before hitting a nail into Brother Al Zufiqar, it would have hurt him real hard. He was just in the process of taking out a point out of his 30 + questions and you come in between.

Between my previous post was very well understood by people for whom it was intended.

[SBM]

Omega quote
Between my previous post was very well understood by people for whom it was intended

.
Br.Omega
Can you be more specific who was it intended, since we progressive are deprived of the Noorani Kalemaat and Naemaats, and as we are not privilaged to understand the Baatini Ilm, we prefer you can talk to us in Simple Understandable Language direct to the point.

[Al Zulfiqar]

brother oma,

omega speaks from both sides of his mouth. he refuses to quote from our deeni scriptures in answering or rather refuting the points i am trying to make, and to defend his 'generalised' logic, but has tons of knowledge on hinduism. he keeps flaunting that knowledge of hinduism in our face, as if that is extremely vital to his credentials as a scholar.

slowly but surely, the hidden face of omega is emerging...

[Omega]

Brother Omabharti,

As their was no reply from You or any one on the research they must have done on Hinduism's origin and as some other Brother's were becoming restless on seeing a new Abde on the block i said that the reply for Wadhavu was intended for the right people and they must have understood it. Between as requested if you have gone through the books in Reformist's possession you must have realized the origin of customs.

[Humsafar]

Omega, was your humility and politeness all pretence? Stop beating about the bush and just answer the questions. If you can't or don't want to then say so. Stop wasting everybody's time.

[bohri]

Omega Bhai (or is it Bhai-saheb?)

Between my previous post was very well understood by people for whom it was intended.

This must be what they call Lisaan-e-something or the other - the same kind of language is used in sabaaks and waez - lots of flowery words strung together in meamingless streams. When the congregation is really confused or seem sleepy or bored, they throw in some pur josh mataam to wake them up. Apart from kharaas and mithaas, the miserable folks returm home with no additional knowledge or understanding.

You are using the same kind of word stringing here - so far you have not added an inch of sense.

[Al Zulfiqar]

omega,

enough of your diversionary tactics into hinduism. your knowledge of it or others' lack of knowledge about it is not the focus of this thread. now let us have that great intellect of yours focused on the 34 questions i have posed to people like yrselves.

you need a single point? start with question no. 1 on my list please...

bro. oma,

for the sake of brevity, let us make this wadhawo issue and omega's challenge about it a seperate thread please. i will take him up on his empty boasts there re: hinduism.

[Omega]

first question by Brother AL Zulfiqar,

1) why was the syedna black-listed and not able to visit saudi since last 20 years? and even after being graciously allowed in for an umrah, why was he instructed to strictly not allow any bohras to join him?

He (Tus) was never black listed, do you even remotely believe this crap dished out to you people that a leader of a community can be banned and all his followers are graciously allowed for Haj and Umrah. Come on people you need to be more gracious in your attack.


Now If for arguments sake any one wants to believe your claim. can YOU or any one on the forum provide any reliable and verifiable proof for the same. I know one brother Husain_KSA is from Saudi and he can enlighten you people in a better way.

Till you dont come up with any and i repeat ANY such proof you will have to believe that he was always welcomed their.

And regarding your point that none of the Dawoodi Bohras were allowed then go to the archives of the same forum and dig out what Brother Husain_KSA had reported about people from all over Saudi who came to do Umrah with Syedna(tus).

tell me when you are ready for your second question

[SBM]

bro. oma,
for the sake of brevity, let us make this wadhawo issue and omega's challenge about it a seperate thread please. i will take him up on his empty boasts there re: hinduism

.
Br. AZ
will do , I have no desire to open another thread on that topic because I know we will get run around, Only request can you add if not already there about
Purjosh Maatam after every Farad Namaz and two Rakat for Syedna 52?

['sauga dude]

Assalam aleykum Brother Omega,

You keep on asking for proof. I do not know what the authority of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's General Presidency of Scholarly Research and Ifta is but I am sure that the following websites will, if nothing more, make for some interesting reading for you.

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.ph ... QwNjM5MTE0
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/673.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/674.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/675.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/676.pdf

As far as Bohras being told not to travel to Saudi Arabia for umrah while moalana was there, it would be quite foolish for you to deny that fact. Emails were circulated in all the jamaats. You can see a copy of the farman on http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&start=60

[bohri]

Omega Bhai

And regarding your point that none of the Dawoodi Bohras were allowed then go to the archives of the same forum and dig out what Brother Husain_KSA had reported about people from all over Saudi who came to do Umrah with Syedna(tus).

Here's what brother Hussein_KSA had posted

Syedna arrived finally on board of Jet airways regular flight at 10.35 pm. He and his sons came out from VIP lounge where four Official from Makkah/Jeddah jamat has arranged two cars for them. They directly proceeded to Makkah and reached around 11.50 pm. While other relatives and bohras around 30 peoples came out from regular terminal. Around 12 people were there for their reception and they proceeded to Makkah in two busses and carvan of few cars to Makkah and reached there around 1.30 am.

I must appreciate the local Jamat who has make sure that no show off should take place at airport. Tomorrow Syedna saheb will perform Umra at 9.30 inshallah.

Around 2000 bohras are expected to perform Umra with him. May allah accept his and the fellow bohras Umra and give them guidance. Ameen

2000 people vs. how many at Marhol this year at the annual bohra bash?

[Al Zulfiqar]

first question by Brother AL Zulfiqar,

He (Tus) was never black listed, do you even remotely believe this crap dished out to you people that a leader of a community can be banned and all his followers are graciously allowed for Haj and Umrah. Come on people you need to be more gracious in your attack.

Now If for arguments sake any one wants to believe your claim. can YOU or any one on the forum provide any reliable and verifiable proof for the same. I know one brother Husain_KSA is from Saudi and he can enlighten you people in a better way.

Till you dont come up with any and i repeat ANY such proof you will have to believe that he was always welcomed their.

And regarding your point that none of the Dawoodi Bohras were allowed then go to the archives of the same forum and dig out what Brother Husain_KSA had reported about people from all over Saudi who came to do Umrah with Syedna(tus).

tell me when you are ready for your second question

omega,

either you are an extremely naive person who believes any lies dished out to him and has no sense of judgement, or you are a bold-faced liar, or you think everyone else is a fool like you and has no basic intelligence.

What proof would you require? that we get a letter from King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia to satisfy omega bhaisaab?? when the evidence is staring you in your face, you want proof? if someone slaps you in front of a 1000 people, you will deny it and ask for proof????!!!

your attempts to show that no bohras were restricted to do umra with syedna has already been refuted with proof from this board itself by bohri and sauga dude and by the fact that saifee mahal itself issued a circular strictly preventing any bohras to go to saudi, copy of which is on the mentioned thread.

when syedna in 22 years travelled all over the world, he did not want to visit saudi for umrah even once. why? is it because he had no time for Allah or because he didnt need to, being haqiqi kaaba himself? in that case, why did he bother to go at all and be subjected to such restrictions and indignities?

hiding your head in the sand and claiming to see nothing, is not a convincing reply. all it proves is your limited mental capacity. as for me being ready, i am ready anytime. keep replying to all the questions one by one. wait for my rejoinder and then proceed. do not wait for a shahi ziyafat invitation everytime. bring it on baby...

[anajmi]

can YOU or any one on the forum provide any reliable and verifiable proof for the same.

I agree with Omega. The fact that he hasn't visited Saudi in 22 years doesn't mean he was banned. I haven't visited Saudi in forty years. Does that mean they have banned me since I was born? Also, I do not take my 3 year old to the movies simply because he will make it miserable for everyone else. We haven't been to the movies in a long time. Does that mean that AMC has banned me?

Al Z,

You have forced me to play this game. You won't be able to post without me responding, atleast for the next couple of days.

[Omega]

Salaam,

Brother Sauga Dude,

Not one of the link provided by you says any thing about a BAN on Syedna(tus).


Brother Bohri,

Please understand one thing that every year after Zilhaj Umrah is restricted to people from around the world for maintenance work in and around Makka. And Syedna (Tus) went in that period only so it was obvious that not lot of people will get visa. then also 2000 people were present with him.

Brother AL Zulfiqar,

instead of getting irritated and giving baseless examples of getting slapped in front of 1000 people provide some thing substantial. And please dont come up wth Fatwas from some vague website.

and if possible try to understand logic behind brother Anajmi's post

[merchant786]

Assalam aleykum Brother Omega,

You keep on asking for proof. I do not know what the authority of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's General Presidency of Scholarly Research and Ifta is but I am sure that the following websites will, if nothing more, make for some interesting reading for you.

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.ph ... QwNjM5MTE0
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/673.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/674.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/675.pdf
http://abdurrahman.org/aqeeda/fatawa/pdf/pc-2/676.pdf

As far as Bohras being told not to travel to Saudi Arabia for umrah while moalana was there, it would be quite foolish for you to deny that fact. Emails were circulated in all the jamaats. You can see a copy of the farman on http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&start=60

Borther Saga...This is a shocking piece of evidence and I am really surprised by the way you found it...Its really a boost to the movement and i think admin should take a note of this and present in the court of law whenever we are required to..

[bohri]

Omega bhai

Brother Bohri,

Please understand one thing that every year after Zilhaj Umrah is restricted to people from around the world for maintenance work in and around Makka. And Syedna (Tus) went in that period only so it was obvious that not lot of people will get visa. then also 2000 people were present with him.

Nice explanation for a 4 year old.

How many people from his entourage were given visas? And you actually believe that not a single of his abdes from around the world would have received visas had they wanted (or were allowed) to go?

You may have enough faith in him to believe all the stories they dish out, but I cannot understand this low profile visit compared to the adulation and "mola mola" yelling followers in all this other visits elsewhere in the world. Even his trip to Iraq last year was not so mellow, likely thanks to some hand greasing with the officials there.

It is clear that the Saudis are warming up , albeit slowly from the deep freeze of the last 20 years, which is well explained by 'saugga dudes link postings.

Please understand this one thing.

['sauga dude]

Assalam aleykum Brother Omega,

Not one of the link provided by you says any thing about a BAN on Syedna(tus).

And I did not purport to provide links saying anything about the BAN. If you re-read my post, I said that

I do not know what the authority of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's General Presidency of Scholarly Research and Ifta is but I am sure that the following websites will, if nothing more, make for some interesting reading for you.

For the sake of argument, I accept your point that every year after the Hajj season, umrah is restricted to allow for maintenance work. However, WHY did the farman informing mumineen that "raza nathi" have to be circulated. If the Saudis were not allowing access, would it not have been more understandable if the refusal of the visas was left to the Saudis. If a Bohra had wanted to travel for umrah and applied for a visa like anybody else, the Saudi would have denied him the visa anyway. Why did the kothar have to dirty its hands by saying "raza nathi"?

[Humsafar]

The fact that he hasn't visited Saudi in 22 years doesn't mean he was banned.

anjami has a point, but the question that begs to be asked is why wouldn't Sayedna saheb go on Haj for 22 years. It's not that he did not feel like doing it or was not in the mood or was not in good health. There has to be more to it than meets the eye.

Sayedna saheb could not visit udaipur for 25 years - and he was as good as banned. The point being that Sayedna saheb can and does go wherever he wants - unless there are difficulties in his way. So unless we know why he did not visit Saudia for 22 years, suspicions will abound. One of them would be that he fell out of favour with the Saudi authorities. Maybe he was not outright banned, but it could be that he was not entirely welcome either.

[Hussain_KSA]

an intresting link about Gulla case


http://bombayhighcourt.nic.in/libweb/hi ... _CASE.html

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro Hussain KSA,

Thanks for posting the above mentioned link. Certain remarks made by the Learned Judge needs to be highlighted especially for the sake of fanatic abdes who think that their mola is above all and even above law:-

The case created considerable excitement in the community. Matters had come to such a pass that the Mullaji had excommunicated the persons who put the Advocate-General in motion, and who, although members of the Dawoodi Borah Community, were hostile to the Mullaji Saheb. "Naturally enough" says Strangman, "with feeling running so high and the vast bulk of the community solidly behind the Mullaji, it was difficult for me to obtain evidence, either oral or documentary, in support of my case. Although from first to last the Mullaji kept his people in strict check, it required considerable courage for any member of the community, what ever his belief, to go into the box and face a Court crowded with the more fervent element of the Mullaji's supporters."

Although the defendants admitted that on the death of the Dai the properties passed on to his successor in office, they still argued that there was no charitable trust enforceable in a court of law, and that the Mullaji Saheb was not accountable to anybody except the Imam in seclusion. The argument was based on the tenet that the Mullaji Saheb was the representative of God on earth and as such was infallible and immaculate; he was also the Master not only of the property, but also of the mind, body and soul of each of his followers who were bound to obey him implicitly and could not question his acts. The defendants contended that infallibility was inconsistent with accountability as a trustee, and mastership was inconsistent with trusteeship. The Dai was the absolute owner of the Gulla offerings given to him as "Dhani", "Malik" or owner.

In the earlier stages of the trial, it was contended for the defendants that the Mullaji Saheb was in fact God, or for all practical purposes God, and that this suit was a sacrilege.

The Judge wound up this part of the defendants' case with the trenchant remark, "spiritual heads of communities are not generally remarkable for the modesty with which they state their pretensions".

Referring to the religious books on which the defendants relied, the judge observed that in none of those books was there any indication of the claim, which the Mullaji was specifically putting forward, as regards the Dai being the absolute owner of everything appertaining to the community. Reliance was placed on certain texts of the Koran. Referring to them, Marten J. observed that he was not satisfied that the scriptures substantiated the claims of the Mullaji to ownership of the minds and properties of the followers.

He referred to the evidence in a Surat case given by the defendant's father, the 49th Dai, to the effect that he claimed not the slightest interest in the property; and observed that the attitude taken up by the 49th Dai was totally inconsistent with the claims put forward by his son, the present Mullaji.Moreover, the defendants could not produce a single instance of such extreme claims having been exercised by any Mullaji prior to the present suit; and the defendants' own witnesses made it clear that these claims were at best purely theoretical.

the judge observed "high-ranking people could be trusted not to commit criminal breach of trust; but that did not mean that they were beyond the pale of the law. So, too, in theory the Mullaji Saheb was amenable to the criminal and civil law of this country.

As regards non-accountability, he observed: "this claim is all the more surprising, because in effect it involves the infallibility of some 266 Amils (higher officials) and numerous other managers and officers under the Mullaji. No man can manage personally 648 mosques, to say nothing of 69 gullas. The Mullaji must therefore act by agents. If then any such agent is corrupt or negligent, why should the community be without a remedy against him?" He, therefore, held that the Mullaji was theoretically accountable.

This clause was probably meant to be a face-saving device which would give the Dai-ul-Mutlak the right of absolute disposal as regards certain offerings.

At the time he assumed office the administration must have been extremely slack. Yet he managed in a very few years not only to pull the administration together but to obtain a hold upon his followers greater perhaps than that of any of his predecessors."

[HussainKS]

Where is Omega? He was going to answer Al Zulfikar's questions one by one. He is missing for almost a week now. I hope he has not disappeared like other ABDES before him.

[Smart]

Omega posted a lot and pretended to start a rational discussion, provided he was asked one question at a time. On conceding his requirement, he beat around the bush and seems to have run away for good. Omega is the last greek letter and is used as a synonym for "THE END". Very indicative nom de plume.

[Omega]

Brother Husain_KSA/ Smart

Salaam,

I have not left any where, its just that people are more interested to discuss comments of a advocate who himself had filed the case against Syedna (Tus).

rest assured i am still open to any discussion or debate.