Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilians

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anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#31

Unread post by anajmi » Mon May 10, 2010 7:47 am

Human,

That is human nature. The western nations are good at bombing only muslim nations when they do something wrong. Nations that are too weak to defend themselves.
We fail to look in our own backyard where a lot of evil is happening.
Not sure why we make these senseless statements. We are very well aware of what is happening in Muslim nations. But just like we are powerless to defend ourselves against the bombing of the western nations, so are we powerless to do anything about the corruption of the muslim leaders. However, the west is not. But instead of taking care of the corrupt leaders, their power is used to murder innocents and steal a weak nations resources and we have smart and intelligent people like you blaming the innocents.

Human
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#32

Unread post by Human » Mon May 10, 2010 10:19 pm

anajmi wrote:Human,

That is human nature. The western nations are good at bombing only muslim nations when they do something wrong. Nations that are too weak to defend themselves.
anajmi,
I don't think this is true. America did a war on Vietnam too and they wanted to capture Vietnam, but were unsuccessful in the end. Vietnam is not a muslim nation.

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Mon May 10, 2010 11:39 pm

Human,

Sorry about that.You are right. The west doesn't just attack weak muslims nations but any nation that appears to be weak with resources to steal.

Human
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#34

Unread post by Human » Tue May 11, 2010 8:25 pm

anajmi wrote:Human,

Sorry about that.You are right. The west doesn't just attack weak muslims nations but any nation that appears to be weak with resources to steal.
Yes in the same way that the extremist cowards attack any nation that is prosperous or even still developing.
Its a pity you live in the west, pity on the country ofcourse.

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#35

Unread post by anajmi » Tue May 11, 2010 8:31 pm

Human,

I am not sure why people like you think that anyone who speaks up against the murder of innocents is supporting terrorists and extremists. Thinking like your's leads to ruthless murder and killing of innocents without any sense of accountability. I expected more from you. You just turned out to be a waste of IQ.

Human
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#36

Unread post by Human » Wed May 12, 2010 2:28 am

anajmi wrote:Human,

I am not sure why people like you think that anyone who speaks up against the murder of innocents is supporting terrorists and extremists. Thinking like your's leads to ruthless murder and killing of innocents without any sense of accountability. I expected more from you. You just turned out to be a waste of IQ.
anajmi,
In speaking up against the killing of innocents, I'd be readily willing to help. But not at the cost masking the other side. Yes, innocents are being murdered because of war but then innocents are murdered because of terrorist attacks as well. I am all for humanity and would not support killing or innocents or ruthless murder, so contrary to what you say my thoughts would not lead to violence. I support non-violence and I'd repeat once again that I put humanity before religion.
I'm very tempted to say something about IQ, but its in everyone's best interests that I don't.

Human
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#37

Unread post by Human » Wed May 12, 2010 2:30 am

anajmi,
Also, as I told guy_sam before, I'm not here to prove myself or my worth to you or anyone else. I'm only here to read other people's views and present my own views and debate/argue when there's a disagreement. That's all.

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#38

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 7:27 am

Human,
I support non-violence
Unfortunately, you have no idea what you support and what you don't. Only a few posts earlier you were defending American actions in Iraq and Afghanistan saying that those people weren't any happier before. If terrorists kill innocents, then the West is the biggest terrorist on earth.
I am all for humanity
Only if people in the west are killed by terrorists right? Not if the poor suffering people of Muslim nations die at the hands of American bombs because those bombs are bringing food and a peaceful life right?

ozmujaheed
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#39

Unread post by ozmujaheed » Wed May 12, 2010 8:59 am

Human, anajmi likes picking fights but behind a keyboard.

Anajmi your irrational hatred for the west policies is fodder for extremism no body is saying not to make the west accountable for mistakes and loss of lives bt stating it as pre-meditated murder orchestrated by the administration is crossing the line into radicalizing issues.

I pity those who get convinced by such vile beliefs

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#40

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 10:47 am

Speaking against indiscriminate murder of innocents is irrational? Funny, I didn't have to sell my soul at the airport.

porus
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#41

Unread post by porus » Wed May 12, 2010 11:20 am

ozmujaheed wrote: .. bt stating it as pre-meditated murder orchestrated by the administration is crossing the line into radicalizing issues.
The Iraq war was premeditated. There is enormous evidence that trumped-up charges about WMD's and Saddam's link to 9/11 attacks, which are still believed as gospel by Westerners', were a ruse to create the climate to murder Iraqis and steal their oil. If you cannot find this evidence on the Internet, and not only on sites devoted to conspiracy theories, then I think you beliefs about them would not be 'rational'.

The war against the Afghan people was launched to avenge the 9/11 attack. A group of terrorists being supported by a vicious Taliban government was punished. But Americans wanted more. As in Iraq. they wanted contracts to re-build the infrastructure, and people's lives they had destroyed, by imposing lucrative private contracts at the expense of the Afghan people. This process is well under way.

When people whose lives have been destroyed,and their country vandalized, protest, they are termed terrorists and the USA is busy escalating its war to include the people of Pakistan. No wonder we have people who are driven to extreme measures when all avenues of meaningful protests are shut to them.

And they are itching to attack Iran. Why? Because Iran supports Muslim self-determination and has oil which Americans want to steal. And they fully abide by international treaties. Unlike some you know.

The only hope is that, in time, the voices of rationality will be heard in the West. A tough undertaking considering most of the popular media is controlled by zealots and terrorists, but they are 'our' zealots and terrorists. Internet is still free in the West and some voices of wisdom get out and are heard. But, I would not count on that for being around much longer.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#42

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed May 12, 2010 5:42 pm

there is a simple truth.. yesterday's terrorist, is tomorrow's freedom fighter hero. what does it take to bring about this change? all it takes is to win your fight..then you can wear your cloak of respectability and the world will forget your past sins.

most of the turmoil and attacks on muslim countries like afghanistan, iraq and the movement to attack iran is the direct result of the mischief and sinister agenda of... you guessed it, israel. even obama is beholden to the massive pressure from AIPAC and the other powerful israeli lobbies in the US and europe. no american president or politician since the second world war has dared to take on the jewish pressure groups and hope to survive, and neither the media which is controlled by the jews. in fact, the entire destiny of the west and esp. of usa is controlled by the israeli lobby. the thinkers and strategists in the american adminstration are slowly beginning to realise this, that succumbing to jewish pressure is actually harming the national interests of the US itself.

menachem begin, ariel sharon, golda meir, all were wanted terrorists until the state of israel was forcefully carved out of palestinian territory. now they are lauded as heroes and freedom fighters. the architects of this gross violation of human rights - UK and USA - have for the last 60 years turned a blind eye to the systematic genocide and annihilation of the palestinians and the forcible seizure of their lands to such an extent that only some 30% of their original lands remain under palestinian control.

is this the much touted humanity of the west? planting a western stooge among arab lands to extend their strategic interests, maintaining a conspiracy of silence about its nuclear weapons and inhumanities, is this the democratic west that everyone is referring to? yes, we have to be thankful for certain sections of the western media for exposing some glimmers of this, and we also have to acknowledge some of the barbaric and unjust practices of some islamic states which only serve to provide fodder to the west, but for anyone to believe blindly in the west as champions of democracy and humanity, has to be naive in the extreme.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#43

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Wed May 12, 2010 6:40 pm

here are some links to videos worth watching...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5045440998#

once you see this video, you will see many other links to US foreign policy and the influence of the israeli lobby, who funds AIPAC, and related topics.

one more fact. all those who talk contemptously about the corrupt islamic kingdoms and muslim and other dictators, who do you think is supporting them to remain in power because they toe the US policy or rather choose not to raise their voices against the americans? its the west. so who is indirectly contributing to the corruption and tyranny in these countries? the west.

Human
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#44

Unread post by Human » Wed May 12, 2010 7:27 pm

Okay, so the west and specially America is at fault. But does that now mean we support terrorism? What about terror attacks in countries like India?
You guys have carefully listed the negative side of the western coin. But what about Fatwa Banker's comment on West always coming to aid whenever there is a big natural disaster in a poor country? Where are the riches of UAE kingdoms then? Are they only good for building fancy structures and not for helping out any poor suffering nation?

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 8:09 pm

But does that now mean we support terrorism?
No. That is the problem with you. You have blinders on. The American masters have you wrapped around their pinkies. Anyone who speaks against them is labelled as a terrorist supporter and people like you whole heartedly agree.
West always coming to aid whenever there is a big natural disaster in a poor country?
So if you come to aid of a poor country, you are now allowed to commit extremism in another country? Am I allowed to commit rape if I donate some money to the women's shelter?

If we go by your kind of thinking, then, since the UAE hasn't gone to war with any country, it doesn't need to support poor countries.

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#46

Unread post by anajmi » Wed May 12, 2010 9:04 pm

Al Z,

That was a very interesting video.

Human
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#47

Unread post by Human » Thu May 13, 2010 12:11 am

anajmi wrote: No. That is the problem with you. You have blinders on. The American masters have you wrapped around their pinkies. Anyone who speaks against them is labelled as a terrorist supporter and people like you whole heartedly agree.
Yes, you'd always think that we've got blinders on as we'd always think your thoughts are extreme. There's bias on both sides. You should be thankful that atleast in western nations you have the right to express your views and have your own opinion. You wouldn't be allowed that in an islamic nation. So, tell me what's your take on the terrorist activities around the whole world? Lets leave west alone for a while and talk about countries like India.
So if you come to aid of a poor country, you are now allowed to commit extremism in another country? Am I allowed to commit rape if I donate some money to the women's shelter?
Now what a twisted thought that is! Alright going by your still of thinking, tell me how many countries did all the islam extremists group help or how many poor people they helped before committing acts of terror? Or do they just help people by brainwashing them about ending up in 'HEAVEN' being suicide bombers?
If we go by your kind of thinking, then, since the UAE hasn't gone to war with any country, it doesn't need to support poor countries.
Yes UAE is a rich nation and hasn't gone to war, it only shows the morals of an islamic nation. They're only as good as enslaving the women, have four wives, marrying underage girls etc. Here's an example of a country that donates a lot whenever a poor country is in trouble and does not declare war on nations: AUSTRALIA (there are also some EU nations too).

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#48

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 12:28 am

You should be thankful that atleast in western nations you have the right to express your views and have your own opinion.
And if I express my views people like you label me as terrorists? And I have to be thankful for that?
So, tell me what's your take on the terrorist activities around the whole world? Lets leave west alone for a while and talk about countries like India.
I do not support any terrorist activites, but I am most against those terrorist activities that are committed with the sanction of governments after masses have been fooled into submission and acceptance.
Now what a twisted thought that is! Alright going by your still of thinking, tell me how many countries did all the islam extremists group help or how many poor people they helped before committing acts of terror? Or do they just help people by brainwashing them about ending up in 'HEAVEN' being suicide bombers?
I have no clue what you are blabbering over there. So if these islamist extremist groups help poor people before committing acts of terror you will support their acts? Either you just lost your marbles or you never had any.
AUSTRALIA
Do you know what happened to the native inhabitants of Australia? Besides, Australia supported the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan and has troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

rania
Posts: 156
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#49

Unread post by rania » Thu May 13, 2010 6:33 am

Al Zulfiqar wrote:there is a simple truth.. yesterday's terrorist, is tomorrow's freedom fighter hero. what does it take to bring about this change? all it takes is to win your fight..then you can wear your cloak of respectability and the world will forget your past sins.

most of the turmoil and attacks on muslim countries like afghanistan, iraq and the movement to attack iran is the direct result of the mischief and sinister agenda of... you guessed it, israel. even obama is beholden to the massive pressure from AIPAC and the other powerful israeli lobbies in the US and europe. no american president or politician since the second world war has dared to take on the jewish pressure groups and hope to survive, and neither the media which is controlled by the jews. in fact, the entire destiny of the west and esp. of usa is controlled by the israeli lobby. the thinkers and strategists in the american adminstration are slowly beginning to realise this, that succumbing to jewish pressure is actually harming the national interests of the US itself.

menachem begin, ariel sharon, golda meir, all were wanted terrorists until the state of israel was forcefully carved out of palestinian territory. now they are lauded as heroes and freedom fighters. the architects of this gross violation of human rights - UK and USA - have for the last 60 years turned a blind eye to the systematic genocide and annihilation of the palestinians and the forcible seizure of their lands to such an extent that only some 30% of their original lands remain under palestinian control.

is this the much touted humanity of the west? planting a western stooge among arab lands to extend their strategic interests, maintaining a conspiracy of silence about its nuclear weapons and inhumanities, is this the democratic west that everyone is referring to? yes, we have to be thankful for certain sections of the western media for exposing some glimmers of this, and we also have to acknowledge some of the barbaric and unjust practices of some islamic states which only serve to provide fodder to the west, but for anyone to believe blindly in the west as champions of democracy and humanity, has to be naive in the extreme.
SARCASM *ON*

In words of Human and Ozmujaheed ,

You filthy Anti-Semitic Nazi Pig ! How dare you criticize Israel ? Iran is the Axis of Evil.God has told Bush like God told Bush to invade Iraq !

SARCASM *OFF*

I would say that yours was a good post but then Human will dehumanize ( pun deliberately intended ) you by saying you are on my team and I do not want to drive you to suicide ! :mrgreen:

rania
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#50

Unread post by rania » Thu May 13, 2010 6:58 am

Human wrote:Okay, so the west and specially America is at fault. But does that now mean we support terrorism? What about terror attacks in countries like India?
You guys have carefully listed the negative side of the western coin. But what about Fatwa Banker's comment on West always coming to aid whenever there is a big natural disaster in a poor country? Where are the riches of UAE kingdoms then? Are they only good for building fancy structures and not for helping out any poor suffering nation?
What about terror attacks in India ?

Where Hindu people specifically bomb blast near their temples so that the blame may be levied against the Muslims ? Where Muslims deliberately bomb blast near their mosques so the Hindus may be attacked ?

Or are you talking about the Maoist Attacks ?

Soak this in , You are a coward who can't even stay true to his own opinions.Before this post you were saying how the Islamic countries are shitholes and how the war is justified and now you suddenly claim that the Western World is at fault for these wars ?

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#51

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu May 13, 2010 8:53 am

human,

i'm trying very hard to understand where you are coming from. or is it that just because a few people take a stand a certain way, you harden your stance the other way?

look, there is a lot of good about the west. their systems, their slow but analytical way of doing things which help improve the quality of life for their citizens, their (upto a certain degree) free press, the generally lesser corruption prevailing there compared to asian and african countries, the opportunities for advancement and so on. but remember throughout modern history, the west, more than any asian or african nations, went out exclusively to exploit the so-called third world and seeing the opportunity, colonised them, robbing them of their natural resources, breaking their spirit, treating them as third class denizens and moreover, carried on a systematic campaign of proselytization. in most cases, this was done by inflicting extreme cruelty, a sadistic zeal and a sense of divine entitlement, a la the spanish inquisition. the last 700 years or more have been nothing but a continous saga of these cruelties and greed.

add to it the almost complete isolation and decimation of the indigenous populations of the americas and australasia, and even some pockets of europe. whatever apologies they have submitted now are mere lip service and absolutely cannot undo the centuries of persecution and genocide. in the 20th century, since the birth of israel, - an act totally unjustified by any moral, legal or historical means, - its the west which seems to have got its blinders on. the baby they created has become an enfant terrible', and arrogant enough to cause harm to its own parents. but none of the guilty swines wants to take responsibility in disciplining it, all that they hope for is that with more time, there will be no more palestinian land or voice to fight for its rights. this in my opinion is the worst sin that the west is guilty of committing. and nothing else they do, engaging in relief efforts or providing aid anywhere in the world during natural disasters can compensate for this by even 1%. !!

As for those saying that the muslim nations, esp. the rich arab gulf states are doing very little when calamities strike the world, it is only your complete ignorance and lack of information where you live, that makes you utter such totally false statements. Remember the western media and the world’s biggest press agencies, Reuters, AFP, etc are controlled by the jews. During the recent crisis in Haiti, the Venezuelans were the first on the ground, ran the most efficient hospitals, and had the largest number of volunteers. But did you hear about them? No. because hugo chavez is a staunch opponent of American hegemony and unjust policies around the world. He was perhaps foolish enough to take on the American oil companies and their corrupt lobbies who have the entire US congress in their pockets. Cuba sent in its crack medical teams who did and are continuing to do a fantastic job. Did you hear about it?

As for the arab gulf countries, compared to their size and incomes vis-à-vis the western countries, their contributions far outstripped the west, both monetarily and in terms of equipment, manpower, logistics etc. did you know that dubai immediately put in place arrangements to act as an air bridge to Haiti to coordinate and consolidate all relief efforts from asia, far east and Africa? That is no mean feat, but they have the expertise and the resources and the experience to back it up. Did you hear about it? Countries like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Kuwait and many other muslim nations, incl poor ones like Pakistan have provided way beyond their means than the west. If the western media deliberately plays it down, or your local media does not highlight it, does not mean that you can belittle the sterling efforts of others. I have in the past, having been involved in such relief efforts in the UAE, know the generous, warm and selfless contributions they have made without any prompting. In fact, the uae and its individual emirates have several bodies like the uae red crescent, women’s associations, the sheikh’s private departments, the zakat organizations etc who provide in millions and billions in both cash and kind.

You need to surf the internet more and watch more international tv and read more unbiased news to get the whole picture. Ignorance is no excuse for wholesale condemnation and prejudice against others. Then you are just like the ignorant and arrogant American or australian red necks, the overly partisan and extreme right wingers and born-again Christian, chest-thumping zealots, the go-for-our- guns cowboy types. It is easy to start thinking like the Americans and westerners when you live and work there too long and don’t travel to other parts of the world too often. To think that you are the centre of the world, you are the greatest, most powerful, smartest, cool, etc. nothing can be further from the truth!

Learn to read between the lines. And a word of advice for muslims who live in the west. Yes, blend in, be smart, do not stick out like a sore thumb and go on a mission to proclaim your religion from the rooftops. But on the other hand do not be an apologist for your religion, do not cringe or suffer from an inferiority complex and for god’s sakes do not change your beautiful muslim names to ridiculous ones like andy, gary, sam etc. what I see here is an attempt by some to try and paint themselves as more white than the whites themselves, to deny their roots and their rich and ancient cultures and background. Unless we take pride in what we are, we will remain dominated by the west, and display slavish mentalities as is happening now.

porus
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#52

Unread post by porus » Thu May 13, 2010 10:47 am

Al Z, that was an excellent post and clearly an eye-opener. Thanks.

I would like to take up the US aid to Haiti following the January earthquake.

The aid consisted of both civilian and military efforts. Civilian efforts were directed by charitable organizations and many of these provide exceptional aid. However, the rescue effort was dominated on the media by the role of the military. You might wonder why the military did not come to the aid of Katrina victims rather than the incompetent FEMA, the civilian authority.

It is truism that the US Government aid always has strings attached. There is no such thing as free aid.

A potted history of Haiti.

Haiti was a French slave camp and, 200 years ago, slaves revolted, a la Spartacus, and drove out their French masters. Led by the US, Haiti was denied recognition unless it paid reparations to former slave-owners. They were forced to pay these reparations for over 100 years. But that was not enough. In 1915, the US invaded Haiti to secure it for development by the USA vested interests to profit them rather than Haitians. Since then, the US has bloodily overthrown many successive governments to keep control of the island.

Now, we begin to see why the USA wanted to make sure that the 'earthquake aid' of its military would overshadow all other efforts for aid. First and foremost they wanted the island secure for their continued exploitation. The servile US media obliged and gave them wall-to wall coverage. This would further dupe the US population about how wonderful their military is and forestall any opposition to further extension of military spending.

It has been estimated by various newspaper articles in 'reputable' papers that out of every $1 spent by the US Government on aid, Haitians get less than a penny, 1 cent. Most aid is used for military expenditure.

The US aid, in contrast to those by other countries mentioned in Al Z's post, is actually US looking out for the interests of the rich and powerful in the US. And keeping the country enslaved.

anajmi
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#53

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 11:12 am

Thank you both Al Z and porus. Both brialliant posts. An uneducated Dawoodi Bohra and a slave of the white western masters is an even more dangerous and lethal combination. Such minds allow unchecked hegemony to go on around the world.

Fatwa Banker
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#54

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu May 13, 2010 12:25 pm

AZ / Porus,

No doubt it is important to read a vast variety of media sources if one is interested in getting at the real story, but this is easier said than done. Just as traditional media reeks of bias, conspiracy theories are generally unsubstantiated. As you accuse others of relying on certain media, you are guilty of relying exclusively on conspiracy theories and tabloid journalism. It is a given that if you seek out news that supports your inherent bias, you will always find a conspiracy to support it, and you will classify the opposing view as bias.

Just because you “read it on the internet” does not make it true The truth often lies somewhere in the middle, not black or white, but varying shades of gray.

porus
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#55

Unread post by porus » Thu May 13, 2010 2:51 pm

FB,

I do not think any one can seriously challenge you on your conclusion. We do need to seek out truth as much as we possibly can.

You may wish to study history of US involvement in Chile, Venezuela, Brazil (yes, Brazil), Iran, for a start.

Did you read the 'economic hit man"?

Also, try the UK press. UK still has a healthy press. From right-wing Daily Telegraph, through independent Independent, to left-leaning Guardian. You will get a wide range of opinions on these issues.

While the Daily Telegraph is right-wing, it is liberal, even socialist, by the standards of Fox News. In the above list, I would have included the London Times, but since its takeover by Rupert Murdoch, it has been substantially 'Zionized'. However, it is still a good paper for the Israeli lobby's point of view.

To get a different opinion from the mainstream media, I try to rely on mainstream books written by former Government employees. Most have had a change of heart after having resigned.

If a conspiracy theory appeals to our sense of bias then it is our responsibility to check its accuracy, not to reject it by labeling it as such.

ghulam muhammed
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#56

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu May 13, 2010 4:15 pm

Human wrote:There's bias on both sides. You should be thankful that atleast in western nations you have the right to express your views and have your own opinion.
Right to express views and have ones own opinion in the west...... A racist bigot like Robert Kilroy-Silk hardly deserves comment for the bilge he poured out about Arabs recently. However, too many readers of the Sunday Express or viewers of the BBC don't know any better.

In a column headed "We owe Arabs nothing", Kilroy-Silk accused Arabs of having "murdered more than 3000 civilians on 11 September and then danced in the hot, dusty streets to celebrate the murders".

No one has yet established that even the Arabs named in connection with 9/11 were responsible for those deaths. Even if a group of fanatical al-Qaeda members were responsible for that catastrophe, only a racist bigot would accuse all Arabs of complicity.

Compare that with a bit of history: in the small Arab village of Deir Yaseen on 9 April 1948, two hundred and fifty-four villagers - old men, women and children - were butchered by Zionist terror squads while the young men were working in the fields. Pregnant women had their unborn children killed in their bellies. Most of the bodies were thrown down a well. Within days, nearly half a million Palestinians had fled their country.

Has anyone been brazen enough to write, after the fashion of Kilroy-Silk, that this was the work of all Jews? If they had, they'd have been severely castigated for anti-Semitism. The leader of that massacre, Menachim Begin, later became Israel's prime minister.

The "dancing in the streets" has been proven to be a fake report and a hoax, since the tape was recorded prior to the time of 9/11. Yet, a nauseating bigot like Kilroy-Silk doesn't even bother to research the facts before carrying on like a raving lunatic bent on attacking Arabs.

Al Zulfiqar
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Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#57

Unread post by Al Zulfiqar » Thu May 13, 2010 4:40 pm

Fatwa Banker wrote:
you are guilty of relying exclusively on conspiracy theories and tabloid journalism....
Just because you “read it on the internet” does not make it true The truth often lies somewhere in the middle, not black or white, but varying shades of gray.
FB,

from someone as intelligent as you, i wud not have expected that you would start clutching at straws, - it almost seems like desperation, - to make your point. your accusation that i am guilty of relying "exclusively" on conspiracy theories and tabloid journalism....is not only blatantly unfair, but refuses to take into account the many hundreds of retired senior government officials under various administrations, stretching from nixon down to bush, who once freed of their job requirements, have spoken openly in print and media about the excesses of the us govt, the nexus with and unhealthy influence of the israeli lobbies and pressure groups and the corrupt oil and military-industry combines. in fact, bill maher on his show regularly invites such distinguished authors and retd. govt figures to expose the shenanigans of the govt. there have been many insiders from the jewish lobbies, who have come forward to blow the whistle on the astounding machinations that they undertake to influence US foreign policy.

i take care in reading not just the news of the west, but of other regions that matter to world opinion. of course each and every country's national media will show some bias in the name of patriotism, but one has to learn how to be fair, balanced and sensible to discern what is jingoistic sensationalism, wild and unsubstantiated conspiracy theories or tabloid fodder.

as porus says, there is no argument with your conclusion, nothing is purely black and white. the truth lies hidden beneath layers of rubble. I have a lot of respect for the ordinary citizens of the west, for they are intrinsically good. its their govts who are misinforming them to further their foreign policies.

ghulam muhammed
Posts: 11653
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:34 pm

Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#58

Unread post by ghulam muhammed » Thu May 13, 2010 4:56 pm

United States had spent $300 billion dollars in Afghanistan since the invasion and occupation of that country ten years ago. Many Americans had said that we were in Afghanistan "to help Afghan women," and yet we were told by the director of the Afghan Human Rights Commission, and we read in the recent UN report titled "Silence is Violence," that the situation for women there was growing more violent and oppressive each year. The fact is that 95% of the $300 billion that the U.S. has spent on its Afghanistan operation since it invaded the country in 2001 has gone to military operations there. Several reports indicate that it costs one million dollars to keep one American soldier in that country for one year. They will soon have 100,000 troops in Afghanistan, which will cost a neat $100 billion a year.

Once one understands that the US military presence in Afghanistan is not actually helping the Afghan people, the question of the effectiveness or goodwill of other major US military interventions in recent history arises. In Vietnam, for example, the country had been a colony of France for the 80 years prior to WW II, at which point the Japanese invaded and took over. When the Japanese surrendered, the Vietnamese declared their independence, on September 2, 1945. In their preamble they directly quoted the US Declaration of Independence ("All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness….").

The United States responded first by supporting the French in their efforts to recapture their lost colony, and when that failed, the US dropped 10 million tons of bombs on Vietnam – more than were dropped in all of World War II – sprayed 29 million gallons of the carcinogenic defoliant Agent Orange on the country, and dropped 400,000 tons of napalm, killing a total 3.4 million people. This is an appreciable level of savagery, and it would be reasonable to ask why the United States responded in this way to the Vietnamese simply declaring their inalienable rights.

There was a sideshow to the Vietnam war, and that is that the United States conducted massive bombing campaigns against Vietnam’s two western neighbors, Laos and Cambodia. From 1964 to 1973, the US dropped more than two million tons of ordnance over Laos in a operation consisting of 580,000 bombing missions – equal to a planeload of bombs every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, for nine years. This unprecedented, secret bombing campaign was conducted without authorization from the US Congress and without the knowledge of the American people.

The ten-year bombing exercise killed an estimated 1 million Laotians. Despite questions surrounding the legality of the bombings and the large toll of innocent lives that were taken, the US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs at the time, Alexis Johnson, stated, "The Laos operation is something of which we can be proud as Americans. It has involved virtually no American casualties. What we are getting for our money there . . . is, I think, to use the old phrase, very cost effective."

In Cambodia, the United States was concerned that the North Vietnamese might have established a military base in the country. In response, The US dropped three million tons of ordnance in 230,000 sorties on 113,000 sites between 1964 and 1975. 10% of this bombing was indiscriminate, with 3,580 of the sites listed as having "unknown" targets and another 8000 sites having no target listed at all. About a million Cambodians were killed (there was no one counting), and the destruction to society wrought by the indiscriminate, long-term destruction is widely thought to have given rise to the Khmer Rouge, who proceeded, in their hatred for all things Western, to kill another 2 million people.

Four days after Vietnam declared its independence on September 2, 1945, "Southern Korea" also declared independence (on September 6), with a primary goal of reuniting the country – which had been split into north and south by the United States only seven months before. Two days later, on September 8, 1945, the US military arrived with the first of 72,000 troops, dissolved the newly formed South Korean government, and flew in their own chosen leader, Syngman Rhee, who had spent the previous 40 years in Washington D.C. There was considerable opposition to the US control of the country, so much that 250,000 and 500,000 people were killed between 1945 and 1950 resisting the American occupation, before the actual Korean War even started.

The Korean War, like Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, was an asymmetrical war, in which the highly industrialized and mechanized US pulverized the comparatively primitive North Korean nation. One third of the population of North Korea was killed in the war, a total of three million people (along with one million Chinese and 58,000 Americans). Every city, every sizable town, every factory, every bridge, every road in North Korea was destroyed. General Curtis LeMay remarked at one point that the US had "turned every city into rubble," and now was returning to "turn the rubble into dust." A British reporter described one of the thousands of obliterated villages as "a low, wide mound of violet ashes." General William Dean, who was captured after the battle of Taejon in July 1950 and taken to the North, later said that most of the towns and villages he saw were just "rubble or snowy open spaces."

More napalm was dropped on Korea than on Vietnam, 600,000 tons compared to 400,000 tons in Vietnam. One report notes that, "By late August, 1950, B-29 formations were dropping 800 tons a day on the North. Much of it was pure napalm. Vietnam veteran Brian Wilson asks in this regard, "What it is like to pulverize ancient cultures into small pebbles, and not feel anything?"


This trail of blood, tears and death smeared across the pages of recent history is the reason that Martin Luther King said in his famous Vietnam Speech that the United States is "the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today." Vietnam veteran Mike Hastie expanded the observation when he said in April of this year (2010) that, "The United States Government is a nonstop killing machine. The worst experience I had in Vietnam was experiencing the absolute truth of Martin Luther King's statement. America is in absolute psychiatric denial of its genocidal maniacal nature."

A further issue is that "war destroys the earth." Not only does, as President Dwight D. Eisenhower said in 1960, "Every rocket fired signify a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed," but every rocket that is fired reduces the life-sustaining capacity of the biosphere. In an ultimate sense it could be argued that those who wage war and those who pay for and support war, in reality bear some hidden hatred for life and some hidden desire to put an end to it.

What are our options? The short answer is, grow up. Grow up into the inherent depth of your own existence. After all, you are a "child of the universe, no less than the trees and stars, you have a right to be here." There is no viable, universally inscribed law that compels you to do as you are told to do by the multitude of dysfunctional and destructive authority figures that would demand your compliance, if you acquiesce.

"If we led our lives according to the ways intended by nature," wrote French author La Boétie in his book The Politics of Obedience," we should be intuitively obedient to our parents; later we should adopt reason as our guide and become slaves to nobody." La Boétie wrote this in the year 1552, but people today remain slaves to external authority. "Our problem," said historian Howard Zinn, "is not civil disobedience; our problem is civil obedience. Our problem is that people all over the world have obeyed the dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and millions have been killed because of this obedience. Our problem is that people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation and stupidity, and war, and cruelty."

Do you want to spend your life paying for the death of people (executed by the US military) that you would probably have loved if you have met them? Do you want to spend your life paying for the arsenal of hydrogen bombs that could very well destroy most of the life on the planet? If not, if you want another kind of life, then as author James Howard Kunstler often suggests, ‘You will have to make other arrangements." You will have to arrange to live according to your own deepest ethical standards, rather than living in fear of the nefarious authority figures that currently demand your obedience and threaten to punish you if you do not obey their demands on your one precious chance at life.

Fatwa Banker
Posts: 697
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#59

Unread post by Fatwa Banker » Thu May 13, 2010 10:41 pm

AZ, you are right, I should not have used the word "exclusively".

Porus, some of what I read is on your list and some of it not. I tend to steer clear of ex-Government officials writing tell-tale books as they always come across smelling like a rose, and they never admit to supporting an unpopular decision. Like you said, most have a change of heart [only] after they resign and need some cash to augment their income. I research the author's credibility before I buy a book and John Perkins admittedly was lured by drugs and sex, and then bribes to delay his book, and then writes it anyway. Make of it what you will. I take the contrarian view on this site due to the overwhelming number of participants that are anti-West. Me focusing on some US policies that I don't agree with would be like preaching to the choir. I only consider myself well versed in an issue if I am able to argue both sides of it, much like a lawyer, and this is my personal gauge of whether I am reading too much of that which supports my views. I would recommend that to anyone.

The control of US media by the Jewish lobby is common knowledge in the US, and not some conspiracy against the American people as posts on this site suggest. The flip side of that is they are too "PC" in reporting what really goes on in the Islamic world which I think also needs to be reported, along with the danger posed by the growing number of extremist American Muslims who will do anything to harm this country which is also largely unreported except for blips. For example, anytime an Afghani civilian is killed by NATO or the US, or some other atrocity there is never ending coverage in the Western media, while the brutal and archaic reign of the Taliban prior to the invasion was largely unreported, along with the daily plight of women in Saudi Arabia.

It is a case of be careful what you wish for…

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Collateral Murder..US Military Killing innocent civilian

#60

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 13, 2010 10:48 pm

I only consider myself well versed in an issue if I am able to argue both sides of it,
That means you are only well versed in an issue that you are completely confused about.
while the brutal and archaic reign of the Taliban prior to the invasion was largely unreported, along with the daily plight of women in Saudi Arabia.
And why was that? Maybe the western media actually doesn't care about the plight and suffering of other nations unless and until its own interests are at stake.
I tend to steer clear of ex-Government officials writing tell-tale books as they always come across smelling like a rose, and they never admit to supporting an unpopular decision.
Both ex and current government officials are the biggest whores in the USA. The only good thing about the ex is that they are in need of money and won't think twice about betraying their brethren.