Some sayings of Imam Ali (A.S)

[like_minded]

Whoever wants to be a leader should educate himself before educating others. Before preaching to others he should first practice himself.Whoever educates himself and improves his own morals is superior to the man who tries to teach and train others.

A Divine rule can only be established by a man, who, where justice and equity are required, neither feels deficient nor weak and who is not greedy and avaricious.

He who loves us Ahle Bayt must be ready to face a life of austerity.

This world is not a permanent place, it is a passage, a road on which you are passing. There are two kinds of people here: One is the kind of those who have sold their souls for eternal damnation, the other is of those who have purchased their souls and freed them from damnation.

[porus]

While we all know who Ali is, Bohras never call him Imam Ali.

Bohras refer to him as Wasi, Waliyullah or, more commonly, as Ameer-ul-Mumineen.

Ali is Asas-ul-Imamat (Foundation of Imamat) and not an Imam. First Imam for Bohras is Imam Hasan.

Bohra believe that all Imams are from progeny of Muhammad through Fatima, Hasan and Husain.

Through Hasan? That is because Imam Zainul Abideen (son of Imam Husain) married Imam Hasan's daughter. And their son was Imam Muhammad-ul-Baqir.

A pedantic point, but since this site is primarily for Bohras........

[khuzema]

The term Imam is used in Quran 12 times. Quran also uses Dhurriya, Al, Ahl, and Qurba in place of Imam (May be called synonymes)

I know its not very related to the topic, but I was reading "The Origins and Early Development of Shia Islam" by Jafri and felt like posting it.

[like_minded]

Syedna, in his waaz talks about the SHAAN of Moulana Ali, also about the miracles performed by him, does he actually follow Moulana Ali's sayings?? That is a million dollar question.

I also ask this question to the Dawoodi Bohra community on the whole, Do we follow his sayings?? or we just worship him, chanting YA-ALI YA-ALI (tasbi) and purjosh matam.

[JC]

Like-Minded

Bohras only shout - live like Ali, die like Hussain, and do purjosh Matam.

Ask any Bohra what Ali lived for? what Hussain died for? and his/her face will turn total blank. They have no idea. How can they have as none of their priests knows that. Burhan and his henchmen have made a mockery of Ali/Hussain. They only come up with some vague miracles and thats it. They are trying to equate Ali with Mohammad which is totally wrong and against all the teachings of Islam and Prophet. They are trying to make Hussain as Christ of Bohras who died ONLY for his followers and if you BELIEVE in him and do Matam, you will be forgiven. Hussain never died for that. He died for Mohammad's religion which was in grave danger due to Yazid's rule. He questioned and disagreed.

I ask these Bohras - you yourself say, Jabriel came and ask Hussain if he wanted any help from angels and they would obey - Hussain asked for God's Rada and when Jabriel informed him of God's wish, he put his sword down and surrendered or allowed himself to be martyred. Hussain ACCEPTED martyrdon because GOD WANTED that.

NOW - if Hussain laid his life for God, why do you all WEEP and do MATAM..???? It was God's WISH, aren't you all challanging God's wish by doing Matam and shouting?? You all do all this as if an injustice was done - YES, injustice was done but that is what GOD WANTED. So why not accept that, realize what Hussain did, try to follow his teachings and be Radee in God's Rida. Why to Matam and why to ask Hussain for help, forgiveness - how can Hussain take you to Janat if he only has to be sent in by God.

THINK and ASK.

[pro_pig]

Every SHIA will do matam and bohra are shia too i understand JC u are sunni and u cannot understand this concept. if inam husein did not stand againts yazid what would happen? do u know how yazid was, he was a playboy,drinker,play with pets....that kind of person will rule ISLAM.we should thanks to inam husein because of him islam is alive and whole world knows it.inam husein sacrifice is whole family for islam and for us.WILL U SACRIFICE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY FOR ISLAM JC?brother do your own work there are plenty of things to do in this world.mind your own busniess.

[pro_pig]

Every SHIA will do matam and bohra are shia too i understand JC u are sunni and u cannot understand this concept. if inam husein did not stand againts yazid what would happen? do u know how yazid was, he was a playboy,drinker,play with pets....that kind of person will rule ISLAM.we should thanks to inam husein because of him islam is alive and whole world knows it.inam husein sacrifice is whole family for islam and for us.WILL U SACRIFICE YOUR WHOLE FAMILY FOR ISLAM JC?brother do your own work there are plenty of things to do in this world.mind your own busniess.

[pro_pig]

Why to Matam and why to ask Hussain for help, forgiveness - how can Hussain take you to Janat if he only has to be sent in by God.

THINK and ASK.
The answer is YES when inam husein can give a child to a person who cannot have. u know the story brother jc.
i strongly believe in inam husein and i know inam husein will HOLD MY HAND IN JANAT.Thats positive.

[like_minded]

Brother JC,

I fully agree with you, Infact Ive asked the same question to my Bohra friends, and as usual, they do not have an answer to it and cut short the debate by justifying that there are so many shias and bohras in this world who do purjosh matam, and cry their hearts out for Imam Hussain.

These fools will never understand anything beyond what their moula preaches them, they are just not ready to open their minds, they want to live in the world of fantasies, thinking that if they question or doubt moulas preachings, they will further plunge into the ocean of sins.

[like_minded]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pro_pig:
[QB] if inam husein did not stand againts yazid what would happen?

Thats exactly the point!! Imam hussain stood up against Yazid, because he had the courage to fight against the opressor, who was not only a playboy, alcoholic but above all a dictator!! He very well knew that he would perish against the strength of Yazid, but that did not discourage him. He was also offered all the worldly pleasures (the pleasures Kotharis enjoying now) if he gave up his cause in return. But that did not deter Imam Hussain's will, he was commited and that commitment eventually resulted in his matyrdom.

If Dawoodi Bohras are really inspired by Imam Hussain's supreme sacrifice, then they should stand up against opression, with courage and conviction and fight the dictator without worrying about its consequences.

[Muslim First]

Pro_pig said:

THINK and ASK.
The answer is YES when inam husein can give a child to a person who cannot have. u know the story brother jc.
i strongly believe in inam husein and i know inam husein will HOLD MY HAND IN JANAT.Thats positive.

Brother Pro

Do you know what ‘Shirk’ is?

Do you realize that you just committed 'Shirk' by saying "YES when inam husein can give a child to a person who cannot have."

Wasalaam
.

[like_minded]

Br Mf,

Do you know what shirk is for Bohras?

Not believing/following Syedna!!

[jinx]

Originally posted by porus:
Bohras refer to him as Wasi, Waliyullah or, more commonly, as Ameer-ul-Mumineen.
Ali is Asas-ul-Imamat (Foundation of Imamat) and not an Imam. First Imam for Bohras is Imam Hasan.
.

I am a dawoodi-bohras. I can support your claim/statement that we (Bohras) do not call Ali Ibn Abi Talib as Imam. We call him Amer'ul Mu'mineen or Mawla Ali(as).

We consider ourselves Shia-Ismaili and in some of our literature we are refered to as the sevener. I am sure you know how special Number 7 is in our faith...all the wadhawanu rasm..and what not

However, I noticed a contradiction here. When we exclude Mawla Ali from the list of Imam, then we are left with

Imam Hassan-Imam Hussein-Imam Zainal Abiden-Imam Baqir-Imam Jaffar Sadiq- Imam Ismail

That is 6 Imams. But sevener means following the 7 Imams.


Any explanation?

[jinx]

Originally posted by porus:

Through Hasan? That is because Imam Zainul Abideen (son of Imam Husain) married Imam Hasan's daughter. And their son was Imam Muhammad-ul-Baqir.

I was under the impression that Imam Hassan had only one son who survived him. Wasn't his name Qaseem Ibn Hassan who died at Karbala on Ashura? I could be wrong here.

The other Shia websites say the mother of Imam Hussein was a persian princess. I have no idea which version is more authetic/correct.

[JC]

Brother Pro,

I am a born and brought up Bohra, FYI

Thanks for clarification Brothers Like-minded and Muslims First.

Every Muslim, rather every human being will beleive in extreme sacrifice of Imam Hussain for Islam, no dounts, no questions. He died for what he lived for - a man of principle, honour and belief. He didnot though die for Muslims, Shias or Bohras. He died for a CAUSE. He stood up against WRONG and brother Pro the best part is: He died as per GOD's WISH. FOLLOW HIS TEACHINGS and DO NOT do Matam for him or weep over him or shout. As MF puts it - this is Shirk.

How far Syedana and his henchman follow Ali or Hussain?? See how they live, how they behave, how they talk, how they see, even how they sit - they are all arrogant rulers and princes, what do u expect from them. What do you know about their personal lives?? Now Pros will say we need not to know about their personal lives and I say we have to - If you look at Yazid's personal life and criticize, if you look at Ali's and Hussain's personal lives and sacrifices, then I have every right to ask about personal lives of these princes whose feet you kiss..!!!

[Muslim First]

Br. like_minded posted:

Do you know what shirk is for Bohras?

AS

So long as Bohras insist that they are Muslims then Shirk is same as any other Muslims.

Ascribing partners to Allah SWT.

Let them drop Muslim label and I will not say anything.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

Jinx,

The roots of the Bohra religion is Islam as it developed during the rule of Fatimid Imams in Egypt in the middle ages.

Importance of number 7 comes to us from that era, which owes its origin to Greek numerology which the Fatimids incorporated in Islam.

Before the advent of Fatimids, Ali was considered Imam as he now is by Ithna-asharis. Hence Imam Ismail is the seventh Imam for those who did not choose the Ithna-ashari path which led to 12 Imams. Hence Seveners. However, Seveners are those who did not subsequently follow Fatimids and they may no longer exist.

Ali became Asas of Imamat during the Fatimids' rule and Bohras have 21 Imams starting with Hasan. Seven, as applied to Imams, do not concern Bohras. They never use that number for Imams.

Imam Hasan's children:

Some historical sources indicate he had more than 10. For Bohras, well known are Qasim and Abdullah who were martyred at Karbala. You have no doubt heard of Abdullah's wedding on Ashura to Imam Husain's daughter Sakina. Imam Hasan's daughter Fatima was married to Imam Zainul Aabideen. Imam Muhammad alBaqir is their child.

Imam Husain's wife:

According to Bohras, she was Sherebanu, who was a Persian princess. Her father was defeated in war against Muslims. She was rescued from being sold into slavery by Ali and married to his son Husain. She is the mother of Imam Zainul Abideen.

Equally famous is Imam Husain's other wife, Rubab, whose children Ali Akbar and Ali Asgar were martyred in Karbala.

[porus]

Muslim First,

Salaam,

Do not mind pro_pig too much. He is well meaning Bohra but is almost completely ignorant of his religion.

Bohras believe in tawassul and can make a good case for it based on their interpretation of the Quran. You might want to debate the issue with a Bohra aalim.

The episode which provoked your ire is this:

Jibrail recommended Nabi Zakaria to invoke tawassul of Imam Husain, who was not born then. However, you have to agree that Jibrail knew about Husain at that time because, Jibrail cannot do anything that Allah does not wish.

If that seems to far-fetched, how about a well-known saying of Nabi Muhammad, acepted by all Muslims, that Muhammad was nabi before Adam was created. Another saying of Muhammad is that the first thing Allah created was Muhammad's noor (light).

And what about the famous episode of the virgin birth of Jesus mentioned in the Quran. Of course, we know that Quran says anything is possible for Allah. But don't you have a teeny-weeny doubt. If not, then there is no basis in ridiculing the episode of Zakaria.

If you doubt Zakaria episode, which is reasonable, you also need to doubt the whole basis of communication from Allah, like wahi.

You have no proof that Muhammad actually communicated to Allah through Jibrail or wahy.

[Muslim First]

Jibrail recommended Nabi Zakaria to invoke tawassul of Imam Husain, who was not born then. However, you have to agree that Jibrail knew about Husain at that time because, Jibrail cannot do anything that Allah does not wish.

Is there a Hadith on this?

If that seems to far-fetched, how about a well-known saying of Nabi Muhammad, acepted by all Muslims, that Muhammad was nabi before Adam was created. Another saying of Muhammad is that the first thing Allah created was Muhammad's noor (light).

I am sorry, I do not know about this also. Any Hadith?

You have no proof that Muhammad actually communicated to Allah through Jibrail or wahy.

Qur'an is full of this.

I believe in Qur'an, Sunnah of Prophet and Authentic Ahadith of Prophet.

And how about this

1."RasulallhSA was given difficuld choice of either giving up the life of his son Ibrahim or his grandson Hussain. Rasulallah chose his own son bacause he knew that Hussain's existance is essntial as Aimmat Tehrat are his progeny." (Third Waaz)

Where this BS comes from? If Islam was a Kingdom is it not better to have son then Nawasa (grandson from daughter)?

2. Sory about Imam Mehdi preparing for Zuhoor, getting improsned excaping on Jail door (Waz 2)

3.Sory about Jabir's sons(5th Waaz)

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:

I believe in Qur'an, Sunnah of Prophet and Authentic Ahadith of Prophet.

Why? Let me answer it for you. I am following my teahers, who included my parents.

Next you will say that it is bullshit to say Hanuman swallowed the Sun and plunged the universe into darkness. There is no hadith for this but it is absolute truth.

[porus]

MF,

There is really not much point in quoting hadith. Bohras have their own ahadith and you have yours.

The point is that respect is due to people and their beliefs no matter how false they appear to us.

If you do not allow for any "magical" or "miraculous" episodes in the life of Prophet, then I would consider your ridicule of Bohra beliefs consistent with your outlook. But if you do, then you must admit all religions and their miracles, whether they are Muslim or Hindu or Christian.

Fanatics, especially Muslim Fanatics, who obviously talk to God , want to change every one to their version of beliefs. You cannot do this. Because people can and do hide their beliefs until they can get their revenge. All your postings verge on fanaticism.

Even if you knew what Bohras believe, and you don't, you cannot be certain if any individual Bohra believes in it. If you see a Bohra beating his chest during Ashura, you cannot be certain he is doing it out of his regard for Imam Husain.

You see, actions of individuals are visible but their feelings, thoughts, and motivations are forever hidden. They may say one thing but think and feel another. That is the real meaning of the verse in the Quran which talks about many languages. Quran encourages communication, so you can know one another.

Bohras, luckily, are not interested in Wahhabi interpretation of history or Quran or life of Prophet.

[Muslim First]

Thanks Br. Porus

Wahabi again!

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

MF,

Bohras will need to tackle corruption, tyranny and lack of freedom of thought and participation in their civic matters.

They will also need to tackle the corruption of their fundamental beliefs in order to serve the needs of political power of the "royal" family.

Bohras will need to struggle but at the same time retain their basic beliefs. Bohras, including Progressives, do not oppose these.

Even if Bohras get back to their fundamentals, the latter will not be in agreement with the beliefs of the Sunni majority.

I brought up Wahhabism because we were discussing tawassul at one point. I believe that you do not agree with tawassul. That is a Wahhabi point of view. Vast majority of South Asian Sunnis, I think, do accept tawassul.

[Muslim First]

Porus said:

[Muslim First]

Br. Porus said

Even if Bohras get back to their fundamentals, the latter will not be in agreement with the beliefs of the Sunni majority.

Would they go back to Islamic practice of Ali RA?

I dont think they even know how Ali RA worshipped Allah SWT.

I bet you cannot dispute that Sunnis Or Wahabis practice Islam any different then Ali RA, Fatema RA, Hassan RA or Hussain RA.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

I dont think they even know how Ali RA worshipped Allah SWT

And you know how Ali worshipped Allah?

I bet you cannot dispute that Sunnis Or Wahabis practice Islam any different then Ali RA, Fatema RA, Hassan RA or Hussain RA.

Whatever you mean by "practice" of Islam, I am certain of this. Their "practice" of Islam was a universe away from current "practice" of all Muslims, including Bohras, Sunnis and Wahhabis.

You have your ahadith and they have theirs. You have your Quran (interpretation) and they have theirs. They are all valid. I am very happy that you worship in your way and I amm happy that Ismailies, Ahmadiyyas, Bohras, Christians, and Hindus worship in their way.

Once we are done with rituals, you will find that there is infinite number of things common among us. There will be no need to impose your version of Sharia in the world and there will be opportunity to discuss the best government where all can worship freely in their own way. Western liberal democracies have led the way. We need to work at removing corruption, racism and bigotry.

[anajmi]

Their "practice" of Islam was a universe away from current "practice" of all Muslims, including Bohras, Sunnis and Wahhabis.

Can you be a bit more specific? Let us take salaah for eg. Today Sunnis pray 5 times separately, how was it different during their times when it was a "universe" away?

[anajmi]

Here is an analogy that comes to mind reading porus's post.

My father was a good muslim, but my brother is not a good muslim and so I refuse to be a muslim anymore.

[anajmi]

If you do not allow for any "magical" or "miraculous" episodes in the life of Prophet, then I would consider your ridicule of Bohra beliefs consistent with your outlook. But if you do, then you must admit all religions and their miracles, whether they are Muslim or Hindu or Christian.

A classic ploy used by those who actually believe in none. It would actually be a logical fallacy to believe in the miracles of all the religions.

One would need to study and figure out the one that seems to be the best and the most true or weren't you able to figure that out yet? If you are smart you might be able to figure it out, if you are not, you just reject them all and then post the question that you posted.

[anajmi]

That is the reason why you will never see a Hindu praying salaah or a muslim doing puja unless for political reasons.