Imam Mehdi not the father of imam qa'im?

[anajmi]

Here is another quote from the same site

Note that here we are comparing the rank of positions and not the rank of
persons. As such, two divinely appointed Imams which both have the highest
possible position from Allah, may have different ranks. For instance, out
of the twelve Imams of Ahlul-Bayt, Imam Ali (AS) is the most virtuous. Also
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) is more virtuous than Imam Ali (AS) thought they
were both appointed by Allah as leaders.


It says that the prophet Muhammad (saw) is more virtuous that Imam Ali (AS). That would mean that Imam Ali was less virtuous than Prophet Muhammad (saw). Can any shia give an example of how Imam Ali was less virtuous than prophet Muhammad (saw). What act/quality of his made him less virtuous? If the shia consider both of them to be infallible, then how can one be less virtuous than the other?

[anajmi]

And another one.

However, comparing the * duty * of prophet and Imam is like comparing
apples and oranges or is like comparing the duty of a physician and an
engineer. Imamat and prophethood are totally different functions though
they may gather in one person such as Prophet Muhammad or Prophet Abraham,
peace be upon them.


If they are totally different functions, how can the rank of one be higher than the other? For eg. can you say that this engineer is better than that physician? Unless you are stupid enough to ask an engineer to check your pulse?

[anajmi]

Something else to ponder upon

As we see, Quran clearly justifies the Shi'ite point of view in this
matter. But again, since Prophet Abraham, Prophet Muhammad, and few others
were also Imams, such belief (i.e., Imamat higher than prophethood) does
not undermine their position.


Do the shias know which prophets were Imams as well and which were not?

By the way, based upon Sunni/Wahhabi/Salafi views, this notion of some prophets being Imams as well (prophet Muhammad in particular) was an after thought by the shias after they were caught with their feet in their mouths when they awarded a higher status to Hazrat Ali going against the word of the Quran.

[porus]

Ithnaasharis being the most numerous among the Shia are referred to as the Shia. Even by Bohras.
Nizaris being the most numerous among Ismaili Shia are referred to as Ismailis
Mustalians being insignificant in comparison among Ismaili Shia are referred to as Bohras. Bohras call themselves Mumins.

anajmi, you raise interesting points regarding Ithnaashari beliefs. I do not know how widespread those beliefs are amongst twelvers. Most of my twelver friends reject the points you have mentioned from the Shia site.

I suggest you take up these points up on the Shiachat forum and see what response you get. Register yourself there as 'anajmi', so I can identify you. Good luck.

[incredible]

most of this posting from Al ukool is frm agha khanis web site i remember they also wrote Muhammed (saw) is reincarnation of bhagwaan brahma and Ali(as) is reincarnation of bhagwan Vishnu lol

[anajmi]

porus,

I do not think registering on that site with my views will be welcome. I would probably be banned from that site before I could say shias are id...

I do not think there is another forum like this one that allows this kind of conversation to happen. If there is an example of such a conversation on shiachat.com please give me a link and then I will think about joining it.

[anajmi]

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php ... ophethood/

I have registered and have started this thread on that forum. Can I know your id, porus, so that I can identify you?

[Al-Uqul]

anajmi,

Imamat being higher than Nubuwwat is an Ithanashari belief, I believe. Take your objections to the ShiaChat forum, you moron. No one is interested about this in the Bohra forum and Bohras do not much care about what the Ithanasharis believe about this.

DO NOT WASTE YOUR OR ANYBODY ELSE'S TIME HERE.

Thank u Brother Porus So if im clear ,bohras dont beelive imamat to be higher then prophethood?

Bohras do not Beleive imam said ibn husayn was a mustawda?
and musa al-kazim(a.s)was mustawda i heard,but nizaris attack him and claim he was a abbassi puppet imam in order to make real shia exposed so abbassi could kill them!this is interesting!
and Brother is it true said ibn husayn(al-mahdi billah) claimed to be offspring of ismaail the 2nd(agha khanis say he ai a twin brother of ismail 1st)i.e. abdullah al-aftah rather then ismail bin jafar(a.s)and later claimed the lineage to teh latter?this is,acclaimed on a anti-ismaili site....thank um for your answera and input further help would be gladly aprecciated.
jazakallah ,wasalam

[Al-Uqul]

Ithnaasharis being the most numerous among the Shia are referred to as the Shia. Even by Bohras.
Nizaris being the most numerous among Ismaili Shia are referred to as Ismailis
Mustalians being insignificant in comparison among Ismaili Shia are referred to as Bohras. Bohras call themselves Mumins.

anajmi, you raise interesting points regarding Ithnaashari beliefs. I do not know how widespread those beliefs are amongst twelvers. Most of my twelver friends reject the points you have mentioned from the Shia site.

I suggest you take up these points up on the Shiachat forum and see what response you get. Register yourself there as 'anajmi', so I can identify you. Good luck.

brother this beleif is held up by the majority of 12er Ulama,but there are variouis views among them.
Shia ithna ashari ascribe Ghayb al-ilm to their imams(especially al-mahdi ibn hassan) aswell,but ghayb al-ilm is only to allah(swt)even though allah may share some of it it with his prophet or imam.this is the bohra view ?correct?

[Al-Uqul]

most of this posting from Al ukool is frm agha khanis web site i remember they also wrote Muhammed (saw) is reincarnation of bhagwaan brahma and Ali(as) is reincarnation of bhagwan Vishnu lol

Your right its from amanaat.org a agha khani site.this is why i am seeking clarification.i am interested in Ismailism as you might Know,and am seeking things out.any help would be appreciatted.

[Al-Uqul]

porus,

Ithanashris can believe what they like. However, you, who pretends to be a bohra, just gave validity to their belief by pointing to an ayah of the Quran. So it becomes an obligation on my part to explore this further and see what the Quran really says about such beliefs. By the way, ignoring such references might lead people to misunderstand the Quran.

anajmi,move such a discussion to another post.this post is about imam mahdi and imam qaim not about the station of imamah in shia sects.

[anajmi]

porus,

I got a couple of responses but nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing that I wasn't expecting. Just people beating around the bush. You might want to check it out.

[incredible]

most of this posting from Al ukool is frm agha khanis web site i remember they also wrote Muhammed (saw) is reincarnation of bhagwaan brahma and Ali(as) is reincarnation of bhagwan Vishnu lol

Your right its from amanaat.org a agha khani site.this is why i am seeking clarification.i am interested in Ismailism as you might Know,and am seeking things out.any help would be appreciatted.

aghakhaism and bohrism is totally different if u are seeking to knw about agha khanis better seek from there website or forum.bohris have total different concept,bohris are more closer to ithna asharis and sunnis.

[incredible]

aghakhanis dont even belive in basic principles of Islam,bohras do,aghakhani Imam is more of a rock star then a islamic scholar or imam

[Muslim First]

Incredible

Why are so many different Imaams?

Can you show Immamat in Quran?

,

[incredible]

Incredible

Why are so many different Imaams?

Can you show Immamat in Quran?

,

can you show how shud we pray namaz in Quraan? and number of rakats we shud pray?

[Muslim First]

Bravo Br.anajmi

If you ask Porus, u-akkal or any shia a question;

Ukkal Badi ke Bhens?

Their answer would be "DARWAZA"

Ask them why?

Answer would be Ukkal bhi Guzar jayee Darwaze me se

Aur

Bhense be Gujar Jayee usme se.

All you will get is SMOKE AND MIRRORS

Wasalaam

[profastian]

For Bohras only, I would like to clarify the meaning of the word asas as it applies to Ali ibn Abi Talib.

Ali is not the Imam but asas (foundation) of Imamat. Primary function of Imam is to interpret shariat on the basis of taawil. When Prophet established shariat, he did not at the same time make the roots of the knowledge on which the shariat was based available to all. This knowledge is the knowledge of Taaawil. It was Ali's duty and function to make this knowledge available to his descendants the Imams. Ali himself is the foundation of tawil, and hence the foundation of Imamat.

]For Bohras only, the above information is incorrect. pay no heed.
Ali is an Imam according to the Bohra belief.

[SBM]

^
Pro
If Ali is Imam why do we say in our Adhan, "Ali un Vali Ullah" Ali is Allah's Vali as I understand.

[porus]

For Bohras only, the above information is incorrect. pay no heed.
Ali is an Imam according to the Bohra belief.

profastian brother,

You know as much about Bohra beliefs as Muslim First and anajmi.

Bohras believe that there are 21 Imams.

Now count them from Ali to al-Tayyib. How many, you reckon?

Now, count them from al-Hasan to al-Tayyib. How many did you count?

I hope you learned counting in madrassa.

[porus]

porus,

I got a couple of responses but nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing that I wasn't expecting. Just people beating around the bush. You might want to check it out.

Responses you got were adequate from average participants. I would wait for some more. Especially, I would like you to charge the Shia of idol worship on that forum like you do here. Things will then become interesting.

While Quran calls Muhammad Khatam un-nabiyyin, it does not explicitly differentiate Prophets in ranks or in any other way. Actually Quran makes no differentiation amongst Prophets and it states that. You may wish to point that out on that forum too.

[anajmi]

porus,

While Quran calls Muhammad Khatam un-nabiyyin, it does not explicitly differentiate Prophets in ranks or in any other way. Actually Quran makes no differentiation amongst Prophets and it states that. You may wish to point that out on that forum too.

That is correct. The Quran makes no such distinction. There is a hadith about the night of meraj where Prophet Muhammad (saw) led the prayer for all Anbiya. That is cited as an indication that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the highest ranked prophet. Besides, Allah calls the prophet Muhammad (saw), a mercy to all mankind in the Quran.

As far as shiachat goes, I do not think I am sufficiently interested in that forum. I have been going through some discussions over there and as I said, I haven't seen any argument that hasn't been presented and countered already on this board. The most common argument seems to be the one where the lack of instructions on how to pray salah in the Quran is cited as a reason why everything else should be accepted without asking for references from the Quran.

[anajmi]

Here is a response from one of the members on an unrelated thread but related topic

If I was wrong I apologize for that. However, we've had a continual problem with members who've been banned multiple times coming in under multiple new accounts, particularly Wahhabis just looking to start trouble (posing as a woman even). If you are a new user, and one who claims to be "mild and just", you should realize that creating topics as the above where you are insinuating we are mushriks isn't going to get you a very warm response.

So you see, one shia idol worshipper is no different from any other shia idol worshipper. You can recognise them when they use their blunt brahmastra - "Wahhabi".

This is the thread if anyone is interested

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php ... ra-is-god/

[anajmi]

Here is a quotation from that thread about how Hazrat Ali treated people who considered him to be God.

2 – And from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Salih b. Sahl from Kirdeen from a man from Abu `Abdillah and Abu Ja`far عليهما السلام that when Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام departed from the people of Basra, seventy men of the Zutt came to him. So they gave salam to him and spoke with him in their language. So he responded to them in their language. Then he said: Verily I am not as you say. I am a created servant of Allah. So they refused him and they said: You are He. So he said: If you do not cease and return from what you have said regarding me, and repent to Allah, I shall kill you. So they refused to return and repent. So he commanded that wells be dug for them, so they were dug. Then some of them were pierced to some (i.e. the wells joined to one another via an opening between them). Then he hurled them in it. Then he covered their heads (i.e. of the wells’ openings). Then the fire was ignited in a well from them in which there was not (any)one of them in it. So the smoke entered upon them in it and they died.


The one interesting thing about this incident is that these people refused even to believe Hazrat Ali himself when he says that he is not God. Now the one person that you have to believe is the one you consider God. But then if he tells you he is not God, then there is no need to believe him. So if you do not need to believe him, then you can continue to believe that he is God. See the paradox? There is a message in this somewhere for all of us.

[anajmi]

Here is another beauty from the same thread

99.999% when a Sunni/Salafi quotes something from Shia books, it is completely false. They have built quite a reputation for being untruthful, at least on SC.


Admin,

I apologize for posting stuff from that site and this will be the only thread that I do it in. But I need to show the difference or similarity between the thinkers over there and those that we have over here.

[Al-Uqul]

Here is a quotation from that thread about how Hazrat Ali treated people who considered him to be God.

2 – And from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Salih b. Sahl from Kirdeen from a man from Abu `Abdillah and Abu Ja`far عليهما السلام that when Amir al-Mu’mineen عليه السلام departed from the people of Basra, seventy men of the Zutt came to him. So they gave salam to him and spoke with him in their language. So he responded to them in their language. Then he said: Verily I am not as you say. I am a created servant of Allah. So they refused him and they said: You are He. So he said: If you do not cease and return from what you have said regarding me, and repent to Allah, I shall kill you. So they refused to return and repent. So he commanded that wells be dug for them, so they were dug. Then some of them were pierced to some (i.e. the wells joined to one another via an opening between them). Then he hurled them in it. Then he covered their heads (i.e. of the wells’ openings). Then the fire was ignited in a well from them in which there was not (any)one of them in it. So the smoke entered upon them in it and they died.


The one interesting thing about this incident is that these people refused even to believe Hazrat Ali himself when he says that he is not God. Now the one person that you have to believe is the one you consider God. But then if he tells you he is not God, then there is no need to believe him. So if you do not need to believe him, then you can continue to believe that he is God. See the paradox? There is a message in this somewhere for all of us.

Noone but the nusayris consider ali god.those peopel were Zindiqs(a Zoroastrian SEct who beleived in materialism and opposed Zurvanism).indeed such people are Accursed.ali in all his Sermons on his Fadhaail says he is a creation of allah and whoever calls him Al-Rabb let him be accurssed by allah.Read khutbat al-Iftikhar or khutbat al-bayan.

[Al-Uqul]

porus,

I got a couple of responses but nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing that I wasn't expecting. Just people beating around the bush. You might want to check it out.

Responses you got were adequate from average participants. I would wait for some more. Especially, I would like you to charge the Shia of idol worship on that forum like you do here. Things will then become interesting.

While Quran calls Muhammad Khatam un-nabiyyin, it does not explicitly differentiate Prophets in ranks or in any other way. Actually Quran makes no differentiation amongst Prophets and it states that. You may wish to point that out on that forum too.

the quran says some propets rose in higher ranks{rafa)then others

[profastian]

For Bohras only, the above information is incorrect. pay no heed.
Ali is an Imam according to the Bohra belief.

profastian brother,

You know as much about Bohra beliefs as Muslim First and anajmi.

Bohras believe that there are 21 Imams.

Now count them from Ali to al-Tayyib. How many, you reckon?

Now, count them from al-Hasan to al-Tayyib. How many did you count?

I hope you learned counting in madrassa.

21 are the Imam Fatimieen. We certainly don't believe that there have been just 21 imams in total.
You are a total fraud of a scholar and not a bohra. so please don't comment on what bohra believe and what they don't.

[ghulam muhammed]

Fazaailo Misril Fatemiyyah

Molana-l-Imam al-Tayyib Abul Qasim Amirul Mumineen (a.s.) was born in Al-Qaheratul Moizziyyah on Sunday the 4th of Rabiul Aakher, 524H.

In 526H news of Imam Aamir’s (a.s.) shahadat reached Yemen where Molatena Hurratul Maleka (r.a.) propogated d`awat (call) to Imam Tayyib, took mithaaq in his mubarak name and the khutbahs (Friday sermons) in all masjids were in his name.

In Misr (Egypt) the Baabul Abwaab, Molana Ibne Madyan (r.a.) propogated d`awat towards Imam Tayyib whilst Abdul Majeed was entrusted with affairs of state. Ali bin al-Afzal expressed his enmity to Aimmat Tahereen and aimed to take over Misr. He imprisoned Abdul Majeed and began his subterfuge assisted by Al-Hasan bin Abdul Majeed. Mumineen were killed, their possessions were seized, Molana Ibne Madyan and four figureheads of D`awat, namely; Naslaan, al-Azizi, Raslaan and Qunis were slain.

The subterfuge spread everywhere and with the darkness spreading Imam Tayyib entered into ’satr’ towards the westward lands accompanied by his Baabul Abwaab Molana Abu Ali, Huduud Fozolaa and Mumineen mukhliseen. The palace Misr became empty as did the homes of Al-Qahera as 600 Muminaat emigrated westward. Molana-l-Aamir (a.s.) had foretold of this subterfuge and prepared for its eventuality by making ready for travel.

When the transgression of Ali bin Shahenshah al-Afzal took place and his oppression became manifest the people revolted against him, killed him and freed Abdul Majeed. Abdul Majeed imprisoned his own son Hasan and 100 000 people gathered at the gates of Al-Qahera demanding that Hasan be brought out; they became so enraged that they burned down the doors of the qasr. When it became obvious to Abdul Majeed that they would kill his son he had him poisoned so that he would not fall into someone else’s hands and then showed the body to the public to calm them down.

With the way now clear, most of the mukhliseen dead, Abdul Majeed revealed his inner enmity and greed for power. Within 2 years he was declaring himself Imam and where previously he was writing to Molatena Hurratul Maleka as “Walio ehdil Muslimeen” and “son of the uncle of Amirul Mumineen” he now began to sign himself as “Amirul Mumineen”. Molatena Hurratul Maleka contested his claim and revealed his betrayal of oath to Mumineen.

In 531H, Molatena Hurratul Maleka wrote a will and sent priceless treasures, jewels and other wealth towards Imam Tayyib in the custody of Al-Sultan al-ajal Ahmed bin Abil Husain bin Ibrahim bin Mohammed al-Sulayhi (qs). Molatena Hurratul Maleka passed away in 532H at the age of 92 after which Syedna Zoeb (r.a.) acceded to the post of Al-Dail Mutlaq and propogated d`awat towards Imam Tayyib.

In Al-Qahera Abdul Majeed proclaimed himself Imam and after his death the wazirs of the state instituted his son Ismail, Al-Zafir in 544H. He was there in name only as the affairs of state were in the hands of Al-Malik al-Saleh whilst the few remaining Mumineen retired away from public view.

As the sons and relatives of Abdul Majeed succeeded him his d`awat in Yemen withered, Imam Tayyib’s D`awat prospered and he is the saheb of two eras; that of kashf (revelation) and satr (seclusion). The satr of Imam Tayyib took place for many reasons such as the discernment of the true (believers) from the false, the raising of the people of belief and knowledge and giving to them of exclusive bounties.

In his satr his D`awat is not lost, it will always remain in a continent of the earth, his Dai will always remain. The D`awat of the Imam is instituted through the Dail Mutlaq, Mazoon and Muqasir; the abwaab, hujaj and Duatul Balagh re


http://www.mumineen.org/archive/awliya/ ... 21st-imam/