Yazid followers

[jamanpasand]

Do these Yazid workshippers have any place in reform movement ?

In my opinion, they are more harmful to its cause then the abdes ?

[S. Insaf]

Brother, You need to be more specific. Who do you call Yazid-worshipers and on what ground?

[jamanpasand]

Insaf Bhai, dont be so naive. Are you reading other threads. Peace be upon him was given to Lannati Yazid.

[S. Insaf]

I am shocked! I do not know how I missed those threads.
Like Dawoodi Bohra Shahzadas Yazid was born and brought up in the luxury of palaces. He had played no role in the spread of Islam. His father Moawiyah very well knew of his weaknesses but he made him his successor. Yazid was drunkard, womanizer, hunter, tyrant, arrogant and terrorist. He openly made fun of Islamic principles and practices. Above all he was responsible for trying to eliminate the holy family of the Prophet of Islam.
This is a fact accepted by both Shia and Sunni historians.

[porus]

By invoking Allah’s pleasure on Yazid, anajmi crossed an unwritten bound of decency which would have terribly offended not just the Shia but the vast majority of Sunnis too.

In his defence, he said that he was responding to Ismaili metaphysical stance as interpreted by me. That is, that Yazid had been foreordained to play a role which would make the Shia curse him forever and for that reason Yazid should have Allah’s pleasure invoked on him. While we can concede a point in argument, was it necessary to annoy the Shia in Muharram when they are engaged in mourning the tragedy of Kerbala? His behavior is reminiscent of extreme Wahhabis in Pakistan who arrange weddings on Ashura to spite the Shia out of sheer hatred.

In any case, the argument he presented is false. Iblis is also foreordained to play a role and against whom Allah warns humans. Allah has invoked curses on Iblis and has asked humans to invoke protection in Allah against ‘accursed’ Shaytan, which they do in the istiadha that Muslims recite when reading the Quran.

In all the annals of Ismaili Metaphysics, you would not find the conclusion that anajmi draws to justify his Invocation of Allah’s pleasure for Yazid.

Zakir Naik did that some time ago and he was roundly condemned for it. And the arguments, both scholarly and religious, against him are available all over the web.

[anajmi]

While we can concede a point in argument

Thank you.

I apologize for having taken the extreme stance against disbelievers pretending to be believers and praising Yazid. I am sure most people realize that it was done with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. But to those who don't, I apologize. I do not believe Yazid was acting according to the wishes of Allah. I have explained this before. Yazid deserves to be blamed for the events of karbala (even though the shia do not blame Yazid) and he deserves to be cursed for what he did.

I praise Imam Hussain for standing up for what was right and not because it was pre-ordained. He had a choice and he chose to do that which was right. What do we choose to do? We choose to do that which is easy. It is difficult to pray 5 times a day and hence taawil says it is not needed even though Imam Hussain died while performing his regular prayer. It is difficult to pay zakat and hence taawil says that it is not mandatory. I hope we can learn what Imam Hussain really wanted to teach us instead of performing Ram Leela every year in Moharram.

[anajmi]

Iblis is also foreordained to play a role

You have your history and mythology thoroughly mixed up. Iblis has been given permission till the day of judgment to corrupt mankind. In some case he is successful and in some cases he is not. There is no foreordainment. This is the same as claiming that since my wife is pregnant, I have been foreordained to play the role of a father!!

[SBM]

I thought from the beginning about Anjami calling Yazid (peace upon him) was tongue in cheek and sarcastic. Unfortunately the timing is bad, some times tongue in cheek comments at the wrong time can rub the people wrong way. I am surprised that some of the senior members on this forum did not get Anjami's sarcasm and made big deal about it.

[Safiuddin]

I agree with Oma - i picked up sarcasm and not spite or malintent. What I got from this:
If everything is preordained - then we are not to blame for our actions. If you accept that argument, then logically, Yazid can't be blamed
becasue he just did what was already prescribed for him.

[porus]

قُلْ لَنْ يُصِيبَنَا إِلا مَا كَتَبَ اللَّهُ لَنَا

This is part of ayat 9:51. An idiomatic translation is "Nothing happens unless Allah wills it".

Sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek comments against participants are part and parcel of normal and acceptable behavior in a forum like this. For it to be effective, it is utilized but once to make a specific point. anajmi did this in the Tasbeeh-e-Fatema thread:

According to another legend written in Nagpada by the House of Najmi, Yazid (as) was an angel of Allah who was appointed to order the sacrifice of Imam Hussain to fulfill the prophecies about Imam Hussain that Allah himself had made. No one was willing to order the sacrifice of Imam Hussain. Yazid (as) was the angel who would obey Allah no matter what. He decided to sacrifice his own image for the sake of Allah and agreed to be cursed by the shia till the day of judgment to fulfill the prophecies of Allah regarding Imam Hussain.

This was sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek against me! I thought that it was excellent and I said so, although I missed Yazid (as) in his message at the time.

He then proceeded to make almost the same point in several postings this time invoking Allah's pleasure on Yazid. And he persisted even after some of us expressed our disgust. Would you consider this sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek against me?

Since anajmi has now apologized, albeit in sarcastic and tongue-in-cheek manner , a classic apology with a forked tongue, we can let the matter rest here.

[anajmi]

This is part of ayat 9:51. An idiomatic translation is "Nothing happens unless Allah wills it".

The idiomatic translation does not suggest the type of pre-ordainment that is under debate. For eg. My daughter does not go to the movies unless I allow it.

[porus]

I agree with Oma - i picked up sarcasm and not spite or malintent. What I got from this:
If everything is preordained - then we are not to blame for our actions. If you accept that argument, then logically, Yazid can't be blamed
becasue he just did what was already prescribed for him.

The knowledge of what is preordained belongs only to Allah. Everyone will do what Allah wills. Since you do not know what Allah has willed for you, you have a choice. You only know what Allah had willed after you have exercised your choice. However, you will suffer consequences of your choice because Allah has planted conscience in you and sent His message which guides you in your choice.

This is, of course, very frustating! Why Allah does that is a mystery to confound humans. Mystics and philosophers are still looking for an answer, and they will look for it ta yawm-e-qiyamat.

[porus]

قُلْ لَنْ يُصِيبَنَا إِلا مَا كَتَبَ اللَّهُ لَنَا

This is part of ayat 9:51. An idiomatic translation is "Nothing happens unless Allah wills it".

The verb yusiba in the ayat refers to difficulty and a noun derived from it is musibat. However you can generalize it to mean whatever befalls humans is preordained.

[SBM]

Based on pre-ordained argument, I have question for Anjami and Porus
I have been told that Suicide is not allowed in Islam and if some one commits a suicide, some of the Moulanas would not perform Namaz-e-Janaza since person took his own life. But here is the rub, if this is how the person was supposed to die
as being pre-ordained by Allah, Are we going against the will of Allah by not performin Namaz-e-Janaza? By not performing his last rites, have we (Moulanas) taken the role of Judge instead of Allah?

[porus]

I am not sufficiently competent to answer this question but this is what I think.

No matter how a person dies, it is in accordance with Allah's will. And Allah's will has been done. The manner of their death should not be a concern to those who should give them a decent burial. This is a separate issue and they should be concerned only with what the Quran/hadith says about how to treat the body of a deceased Muslim, which is with all respect and honor due to them.

[anajmi]

Fate, pre-ordainment etc are issues that become a basis for argument for two kinds of people. One kind is that which wants to argue against the existence of God and the other kind is that which wants to glorify their idols.

Others should not be worried about pre-ordainment, fate etc. They should just worry about how to live their lives according to the will of Allah.

Now, to get into fate/pre-ordainment, Allah has not written down how you will have to live your life. Allah has simply written down how you will live your life. Mystics and philosophers are still looking for answers because they haven't understood the difference between the two statements that I have made.

Consider super computers used for weather forecasting. They can tell you a week in advance, to a great degree of accuracy, what the weather is going to be like. However, these super computers did not create that plan for the weather. They just know what the plan is. It is the same with Allah. He knows the plan. His knowledge is infinite. He knows all that has happened and all that will ever happen. The difference between Allah and the super computer is that Allah has the power to change the weather plan. This is what brings us to "Nothing happens unless Allah wills it". Consider a hypothetical situation that a big Tusnami is going to strike the west coast and cause a lot of damage. Allah has knowledge of this and the power to prevent it. But he does not. He lets it happen. That is why we say that it was the will of Allah. Does not mean that Allah was the one who caused the Tsunami because he likes death and destruction. Allah does not interfere because otherwise, human lives do not play out properly. If he were to interfere every now and then, then human achievement will become meaningless.

This is similar to when a calamity befalls someone and he says that is what Allah has willed. Doesn't mean that it was Allah that made that calamity come over you. Most of the calamities that happen to everyday folks are human engineered or by human error. If Allah had so chosen, he could've prevented it. But he didn't. That is why we say, it was Allah's will. Ofcourse, people who pray to Allah, many times see their prayers answered. Maybe it was Allah who helped you get a job because the guy who was better than you couldn't get there on time. Did Allah change what was written down for you? Maybe he did. Or maybe what was written down was exactly that!! Because if we argue that Allah changed what was written down, then we are claiming that Allah did not have complete knowledge of what was going to happen.

It is akin to an autobiography of person that is actually written down before hand simply because of knowledge.

omabharti,

As far as namaz-e-janazaa is concerned for people who commit suicide, we shouldn't get into fate and pre-ordainment. We should go back and see if there is anything that can be used from the sunnah of the prophet. There is hadith which says that the prophet did not pray over a man who had killed himself. However, according to the Hanafi and the Shafii schools of thought, it is allowed to pray the namaz for a person who commits suicide. The prophet did not pray over a person who was in debt. This could simply have been to show that these actions are not allowed in Islam.

[SBM]

The prophet did not pray over a person who was in debt

I wonder how that will be true in today's world where a lot of people have home mortgages. There are some Islamic Scholars who have justified home mortgages since that is primary place of residency while in Bohra it is not allowed period(a good number of them do lie about it)
Anjami
Regarding your comment "Most of the calamities that happen to everyday folks are human engineered or by human error" how do you justify earthquake and hurricanes in places like Haiti (I am sure people will say that earthquake in Iran and Iraq are caused by American Bombings) and Tsunami in Indonesia can not be Human engineered or human error since path and destruction of Hurricanes are predicated by Human

[Al Zulfiqar]

anajmi,

the points you made against the extremes to which some shia go, were well taken. it was logical and worth pondering over.

but in one's zeal to make one's point, one cannot forget diplomacy or human decency. bringing up such words as 'may allah be pleased with him' for a gutter creature like yazid, is an act of indecency beyond what is acceptable in a normal debate. even if it was done in jest or sarcasm, it is a grievous sin to utter blessings on the murderer of the prophet's grandson and his family. why did you stop there? go ahead and invoke the blessings of allah on iblis as well, as that would be the next exalted creature to bless, as per your logic??

that islam frowns upon such behaviour is clear from the fact that if someone says 'talaaq' thrice upon one's wife, even if in jest, it is considered final.

as porus and others have well-pointed out, uttering such despicable words are particularly disgusting, when you did not stop to consider the time and sentiments of those who mourn the shahadat of hussain for the sake of islam.

but for all those who know you well here on this forum, we are not surprised. you have remained true to your nature anajmi.

[anajmi]

omabharti

Regarding your comment "Most of the calamities that happen to everyday folks are human engineered or by human error" how do you justify earthquake and hurricanes in places like Haiti (I am sure people will say that earthquake in Iran and Iraq are caused by American Bombings) and Tsunami in Indonesia can not be Human engineered or human error since path and destruction of Hurricanes are predicated by Human

Looks like you misunderstood. I wasn't referring to earthquake and Tsunamis as calamities happening to everyday folks. I was simply referring to calamities like loss of job or loss of earnings in the stock market etc.

[anajmi]

Al Z,

You are a little bit late to the party and the food is now stale.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Al Z,

You are a little bit late to the party and the food is now stale.

you wrongly assume that anyone in his right mind would be interested in eating the rotten offerings which you habitually offer at your table ...

miyabhai ki tangdi, unchi to unchi...

[jamanpasand]

This moron is trying to divert the attention from the topic with his so-called scholarly preaching. He can not fool other by his disclaimer. It was his hidden faith for which he was expecting some support. Having failed to get support, the coward has backed from his original position. My question still remained unanswered. Do we still want these Yazidis moron on this reform site?

[Muslim First]

Do we still want these Yazidis moron on this reform site?

Br JP

I will speak for me (moron)

We mjority of Muslims are not concerned about Historical personalities. We so not worship them. We only worship Allah SWT as per Qur'an and Sunnah. Fate of these personalities will be determined by Allah SWT as per their deeds.

I am here and will defend Islam when attacked by devients.

[asif786]

Do we still want these Yazidis moron on this reform site?

Br JP

I will speak for me (moron)

We mjority of Muslims are not concerned about Historical personalities. We so not worship them. We only worship Allah SWT as per Qur'an and Sunnah. Fate of these personalities will be determined by Allah SWT as per their deeds.

I am here and will defend Islam when attacked by devients.

The twin brother of anajmi ,the devient Wahabi first following the sunna of first 3 khalifa is here

[aftabm]

This moron is trying to divert the attention from the topic with his so-called scholarly preaching. He can not fool other by his disclaimer. It was his hidden faith for which he was expecting some support. Having failed to get support, the coward has backed from his original position. My question still remained unanswered. Do we still want these Yazidis moron on this reform site?

Br. JamanPasand,

This is a free forum, we support the freedom of expression, which is our base to fight the oppression that we, dawoodi bohras, are facing. This is the thing that we are fighting for and will fight for till we we die. Everyone, we mean everyone, is free to come here, give their opinion, regardless of their belief and faith.

I dont support Anajmi and MuslimFirst's views most of the time, but i ll ferociously defend thier right to speak here on this board.

[canadian]

This moron is trying to divert the attention from the topic with his so-called scholarly preaching. He can not fool other by his disclaimer. It was his hidden faith for which he was expecting some support. Having failed to get support, the coward has backed from his original position. My question still remained unanswered. Do we still want these Yazidis moron on this reform site?

Br. JamanPasand,

This is a free forum, we support the freedom of expression, which is our base to fight the oppression that we, dawoodi bohras, are facing. This is the thing that we are fighting for and will fight for till we we die. Everyone, we mean everyone, is free to come here, give their opinion, regardless of their belief and faith.

I dont support Anajmi and MuslimFirst's views most of the time, but i ll ferociously defend thier right to speak here on this board.

Bro. aftabm:

Thank you.

[porus]

I am not sufficiently competent to answer this question but this is what I think.

No matter how a person dies, it is in accordance with Allah's will. And Allah's will has been done. The manner of their death should not be a concern to those who should give them a decent burial. This is a separate issue and they should be concerned only with what the Quran/hadith says about how to treat the body of a deceased Muslim, which is with all respect and honor due to them.

I could not find anything about prayers for a suicide in Daimul Islam which reports Ali ibn Abi Talib saying that Prophet offered janaza prayer for an adulteress who died in childbirth and also for her dead baby. Ali said that Prophet recommended that funeral prayer be offered for every Muslim whether virtuous or dissolute.

We can conclude, therefore, that Prophet would not have denied prayers for a suicide.

As to instances of hadith where Prophet is reported not to have offered a funeral prayer for someone under some circumstance, it is so totally out of character for Prophet, that we can dismiss the hadith completely. I suspect that hadith, if it exists, was invented by Abu Hurayra or another Muawiyah sycophant to please his lord and justify Muawiyah's actions which were contrary to Prophet's behavior.

[anajmi]

The hadith does not report that the prophet (saw) disallowed the funeral prayer for the said individual. He did not participate in it to show his displeasure with suicide. This was infact the best way for him to demonstrate the will of Allah. The prophet (saw) wasn't here to please us. He was here to deliver the message of Allah. Allah is clear about suicide in the Quran.

If the hadith had reported otherwise, Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Shafi wouldn'tve allowed it.

[porus]

We mjority of Muslims are not concerned about Historical personalities. We so not worship them.

I am here and will defend Islam when attacked by devients.

The problem with our brother Muslim First is that he spends so much time on the Bohra forum that he hardly has any time to know what the 'majority' Muslims actually do. You only have to go to Ajmer and dozens of similar shrines of Sufi and Sunni pirs frequented by Sunnis in the subcontinent to see that there is absolutely no difference in the behavior of Bohras and Sunnis when it comes to visiting the graves. Sunnis, like Bohras, invoke waseela of the departed at their graves. What is more, you only need to listen hundreds of qawwalis and popular songs about Buleh Shah, Rabea Basri and others to see what Muslim majority do is nothing what Muslim First would have us believe. Every village in Pakistan and Muslim India boasts its local pir whose visit is almost mandatory.

Leave the subcontinent alone. You just need to go to Bab-e-Sagheer in Damascus, where many of the 'ahle bayt' are buried, to see that there are as many Sunnis there as the Shia all beseeching the dead for favors. Same story is repeated in Jordan, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Mauritania, Sudan and sub-Saharan African countries like Nigeria. Vast majority of Muslims revere their dead ancestors, especially if they have been pious; and legends have grown around them. You can read all about them in travel books. One good source is National Geographic.

And do not forget the 'graves' of various Quranic Prophets in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Iraq. In Damascus there is a cave with an opening which boasts Maqam-e-Khidr and Maqam-e-Ibrahim side by side. Most Muslims who come to pray there are Sunnis who hold these places with high regard.

The only exception appears to be the Wahhabi motherland, MF's favorite, where they have turned the grave of Ummul Mumineen, Khadija bint Khuwaylid, into a public lavatory.

Frequenting Wahhabi websites gives our brother a warped view of the Muslim (Sunni) Universe.

[porus]

Al Z,

You are a little bit late to the party and the food is now stale.

This is such shameless behavior. Instead of expressing contrition, he displays cockiness to show how clever he is.

Forever, anajmi will be associated with what he expressed for Yazid on this board whenever any aspect of Karbala is discussed. It is unlikely to be stale for quite some time.

He has shot himself in the foot and whatever he writes will be sullied with the memory of him invoking Allah's pleasure on Yazid. His credibility has been badly damaged by this. He should not take it lightly.