ex bohra's

[anajmi]

sixfeetunder,

Read the ayahs that you have posted again carefully,

"The claim that "Ya Ali Madad" is only called for intercession is bogus because Allah hasn't given permission to Hazrat Ali for intercession."

This claim of yours has really surprised me. It has in fact, cracked me up. Please read these verses from the Qur'an:

"On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with" (20:109)

"And intercession will not avail aught with Him save of him whom He permits" (34:23)

"And how many an angel is there in the heavens whose intercession does not avail at all except after Allah has given permission to whom He pleases and chooses" (53:26)

"...And they do not intercede except for him whom He approve..." (21:28)

"And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him)" (43:86)

Everywhere the emphasis is on no intercession. Then comes the part where the intercession is allowed from those with whom Allah is pleased. Hazrat Ali isn't mentioned anywhere. The second part of my post clearly mentions that if intercession is the reason, then why don't the Shias say "Ya Mohammad"? Allah has clearly mentioned in the Quran that the prophet (saw) has been sent as a mercy to mankind. If the intercession of the prophet (saw) is not accepted, then I can guarantee you that the intercession of Hazrat Ali will also not be accepted!!

[anajmi]

Associating partners with Allah (swt) means accepting that Allah is not one. Shias never say Allah is not one.

That doesn't make any sense. If a mushrik says Allah is not one then what is he saying? That Allah is two or three or more? If a person says Allah is two, I would probably classify him as insane instead of a shia.

Now, would you say that Asif was 'Al-Qaadir'?

No because Asif was just fast. You are not saying that Hazrat Ali is always sitting next to all the shias or perhaps running around listening to which shia is calling "Ya Ali Madad" at the speed of Asif are you?

Why won"t Allah give him he power to respond to the calls of his believers?

Because Allah is very clear in the Quran. If Allah shares his power with others, then HE has no right to claim that has no partners.

[anajmi]

Do you forget the hadith which says that Ali is with the truth and the truth is with Ali. Do you not know the supplication in which the Prophet pleads to Allah to befriend those who befriend Ali and oppose those who oppose Ali?

The prophet has said similar things about his other sahabas as well. Specially Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Uthman. And all muslims except the shia believe in those hadith to be true. You still don't hear them saying "Ya Abu Bakr" or "Ya Umar" do you? Is it because they haven't understood the ayahs about intercession or is it because they have clearly understood the ayah where the righteous are supposed to say "Thou only shall we worship and thou only shall we seek for help"?

[sixfeetunder]

Everywhere the emphasis is on no intercession. Then comes the part where the intercession is allowed from those with whom Allah is pleased. Hazrat Ali isn't mentioned anywhere. The second part of my post clearly mentions that if intercession is the reason, then why don't the Shias say "Ya Mohammad"? Allah has clearly mentioned in the Quran that the prophet (saw) has been sent as a mercy to mankind. If the intercession of the prophet (saw) is not accepted, then I can guarantee you that the intercession of Hazrat Ali will also not be accepted!!

From your first three sentences above, it can be inferred that you're saying that Allah (s.w.t) is not pleased with Hazrat Ali. Is that what you mean?

As for 'Ya Muhammad', I've already mentioned that Shias do say Ya Muhammad. Shias also say Ya Ali, Ya Fatima, Ya Hasan, Ya Husain along with the other infallible Imams. Yes, it is true that the chant 'Ya Ali' is much more common. There are various reasons for this. We love Hazrat Ali. He was treated badly by the followers of The Prophet. Unjust wars were waged against him. He was cursed from the pulpits of Damascus for nearly 90 years but he is dear to us. The Prophet clearly gave the criteria for hypocrisy and true belief - the love for Ali. Also, the Prophet clearly said - Man Kunto Maula fe haza Aliyun Maula. Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the seal and leader of all prophets and Ali is the master of those whose master is Muhammad. Hence, we believe that Ali is the leader of all Prophets, except Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w). That is the status of Imamat in Islam.

Also, in your last line, are you trying to say that the intercession of the Prophet won't be accepted?

[sixfeetunder]

That doesn't make any sense. If a mushrik says Allah is not one then what is he saying? That Allah is two or three or more? If a person says Allah is two, I would probably classify him as insane instead of a shia.

That in fact makes perfect sense. You choose not to understand. If a person says Allah is not one, he becomes Mushrik. Otherwise, why do you think the Christians and Jews are called Ahl-e-Kitab and not Mushriks? Anyone who attests LA ILAHA IL ALLAH cannot be a Mushrik. The insane ones were the pagans of Mecca who believed that different idols had different powers.

No because Asif was just fast. You are not saying that Hazrat Ali is always sitting next to all the shias or perhaps running around listening to which shia is calling "Ya Ali Madad" at the speed of Asif are you?

No. Allah blesses powers to his chosen servants. Qur'an says that those who are martyred in the way of Allah are not dead. They are alive. After death, the limitations of the human body are gone. If Allah can allow Satan to be present everywhere till the day of Judgement, would his favourite servants not have this power?

Because Allah is very clear in the Quran. If Allah shares his power with others, then HE has no right to claim that has no partners.

This statement sounds funny. As per your above statement, Allah has already lost the right since this entire universe functions due to his power. His power is limitless, my friend. It does not decrease if given away. You and me are also alive due to his power. In the previous statement you said,'No because Asif was just fast'. So how did Asif become fast? Due to Allah's power-boost? So Allah gave some him some of his power and made him a partner? No. Allah simply gave him some of his limitless power because he had Allah's knowledge.

[sixfeetunder]

The prophet has said similar things about his other sahabas as well. Specially Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar and Hazrat Uthman. And all muslims except the shia believe in those hadith to be true. You still don't hear them saying "Ya Abu Bakr" or "Ya Umar" do you? Is it because they haven't understood the ayahs about intercession or is it because they have clearly understood the ayah where the righteous are supposed to say "Thou only shall we worship and thou only shall we seek for help"?

Yes, those sayings are present in the ahadith books but that does not make them necessarily true. The Ahle sunnat agrees to a large extent that Ali is the most qualified person in Islam after the Prophet (s.a.w). Non-Shias do not say "Ya-Abu Bakr" etc because those persons did not have the unique qualities that Ali (a.s) has. I am sure I don't need to copy-paste the merits of Ali from Sunni sources. I am sure you're aware of them and if you will honestly examine, you would agree that no companion has as many merits (khasa'is) as Ali (a.s). That is exactly why all Sunni sufi tariqas consider Ali to be their spiritual head. You would know that Umar and Uthman used to seek Ali's advise on various Islamic matters of society and state. Ali (a.s) is also the father of kalam in Islam. His authority is unparalleled.

When we call out 'Ya Ali madad', we do not think of Ali (a.s) as Allah or a partner of Allah (s.w.t). Hence it is not shirk. The Prophet asked Ali for help at Uhud. We worship only Allah and only his help albeit various means. One of the means is Ali (a.s). Allah asks Muslims in the Qur'an to seek means of approach to him. Ali (a.s) is one of the means, just like Qur'an is a means of approach, fasting is a means of approach, praying is a means of approach, looking at Kab'ah is a means of approach.

I have said what I had to. Won't prolong the conversation if it goes around in circles. Each one of us is responsible for our own thoughts, deeds and actions in the end. Peace.

YA ALI (a.s) TERA YEH HASEEN NAAM BHALA LAGTA HAI!
TERI NISBAT SE YEH ISLAM BHALA LAGTA HAI!
LOG KEHTE HAIN TERE ISHQ MEIN QAFIR MUJHE!
AUR MERE DIL KO YEH ILZAM BHALA LAGTA HAI!

[anajmi]

Yes, those sayings are present in the ahadith books but that does not make them necessarily true.

As I have already said, they are true for all muslims except the Shia. They still do not say "Ya Sahaba".

[Muslim First]

for sixfeetunder and Asif786

Please read and study this essey I posted long time ago

"The ESSEY-on praying to anybody except Allah SWT",

I posted here

" http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=4265 ".

[anajmi]

From your first three sentences above, it can be inferred that you're saying that Allah (s.w.t) is not pleased with Hazrat Ali. Is that what you mean?

No. Allah may be pleased with Hazrat Ali. Allah may be pleased with a lot of others who lived and died for Islam.

This statement sounds funny. As per your above statement, Allah has already lost the right since this entire universe functions due to his power. His power is limitless, my friend. It does not decrease if given away. You and me are also alive due to his power. In the previous statement you said,'No because Asif was just fast'. So how did Asif become fast? Due to Allah's power-boost? So Allah gave some him some of his power and made him a partner? No. Allah simply gave him some of his limitless power because he had Allah's knowledge.

Your statement is funny. Being fast is not one of Allah's power. Allah doesn't have to be fast to do something. He just has to say "Be" and it is. I don't think you clearly understand what Allah means when he warns us not to associate partners with him. As per your statements, you have just made all of us partners with Allah!!

For eg. one of Allah's attributes is "Merciful". That doesn't mean that humans are not merciful. But in my mercy, I won't be able to grant someone heaven. Or grant someone freedom from cancer.

As for 'Ya Muhammad', I've already mentioned that Shias do say Ya Muhammad. Shias also say Ya Ali, Ya Fatima, Ya Hasan, Ya Husain along with the other infallible Imams. Yes, it is true that the chant 'Ya Ali' is much more common. There are various reasons for this. We love Hazrat Ali. He was treated badly by the followers of The Prophet. Unjust wars were waged against him. He was cursed from the pulpits of Damascus for nearly 90 years but he is dear to us. The Prophet clearly gave the criteria for hypocrisy and true belief - the love for Ali. Also, the Prophet clearly said - Man Kunto Maula fe haza Aliyun Maula. Prophet Muhammad (saw) is the seal and leader of all prophets and Ali is the master of those whose master is Muhammad. Hence, we believe that Ali is the leader of all Prophets, except Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w). That is the status of Imamat in Islam.

We were discussing "Ya Ali Madad". When I said "Ya Mohammad", I wanted to say "Ya Mohammad Madad". You won't find any shia saying "Ya Mohammad Madad" or "Ya Hussain Madad".

Also, in your last line, are you trying to say that the intercession of the Prophet won't be accepted?

No. I am not saying that it won't be accepted. I am saying I don't know. The most qualified person for intercession is prophet Mohammad (saw). He was sent as a mercy to all mankind. We won't have to go to Hazrat Ali for intercession.

No. Allah blesses powers to his chosen servants. Qur'an says that those who are martyred in the way of Allah are not dead. They are alive. After death, the limitations of the human body are gone. If Allah can allow Satan to be present everywhere till the day of Judgement, would his favourite servants not have this power?

Quran says that those who are martyred are not dead but alive. Does it also say that they can hear your prayers and intercede on your behalf? Besides, when Quran mentions intercession it is meant on the day of judgment. Shias say "Ya Ali Madad" when lifting heavy luggage. Are they expecting intercession from Hazrat Ali to lift their luggage?

Did you just compare Allah's favourite servants with Satan (I know, stupid question, but resembling some of yours). Satan is a jinn. Their creation is such that they have these powers. Unless you are saying that Hazrat Ali turned into a jinn after his death, this comparison is baseless.

Anyone who attests LA ILAHA IL ALLAH cannot be a Mushrik.

Wrong. There were mushriks during the time of the prophet (saw) Mohammad who used to be active in the Mosque and claimed La Ilaha Il Allah. According to your statements, only a disbeliever can be a mushrik, which doesn't make sense because a disbeliever wouldn't be associating partners with Allah. He would be replacing Allah with his own deity.

I am sure I don't need to copy-paste the merits of Ali from Sunni sources.

No you don't, because I can paste merits of the other sahabas from the same sources.

When we call out 'Ya Ali madad', we do not think of Ali (a.s) as Allah or a partner of Allah (s.w.t).

This is similar to the arguments presented by the pagans of mecca when they claimed that the idols were only a means to accessing Allah.

The Prophet asked Ali for help at Uhud.

That should mean that the shias should go to Uhud to ask for Hazrat Ali's help (I know, another stupid statement). Every person who fought for Islam was helping the prophet spread his message of Islam. The wars weren't fought by just the prophet (saw) and Hazrat Ali. The first person to help the prophet was his wife. The next person to help the prophet was his uncle Hazrat Hamza. Over 300 sahabas fought in the battle of Badr. They all answered the call of the prophet (saw).

Allah asks Muslims in the Qur'an to seek means of approach to him. Ali (a.s) is one of the means, just like Qur'an is a means of approach, fasting is a means of approach, praying is a means of approach, looking at Kab'ah is a means of approach.

My argument is very simple. As long as you stick to the means mentioned clearly in the Quran, you are ok. If you start seeking help from Hazrat Ali, you have started associating partners with Allah.

Since this is a never ending discussion, I will end by saying this -

The shias have made Hazrat Ali the center of their universe instead of Allah. Their argument is a couple of statement made by the prophet (saw). They have interpreted those statements as giving Hazrat Ali powers similar to those of Allah. Why can't you seek Allah's help directly when Allah says that he is closer to you than your own jugular. Why do the shia insist on putting Hazrat Ali in the middle? There is absolutely no reason valid enough in the Quran or in the Sunnah of the prophet. Hazrat Ali himself has never asked the muslims to do this. For Bohras the Dai has become the bottleneck while going to jannah and for the shia in general it is Hazrat Ali. Why have the shia chosen to ignore the clear message in the Quran for that which is murky and can be easily invalidated?

[anajmi]

Hence, we believe that Ali is the leader of all Prophets, except Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w). That is the status of Imamat in Islam.

I missed this classic from you. My argument about shias being worshippers of Hazrat Ali just got cemented further. If the shia believe that Hazrat Ali is the leader of Prophet Musa, Prophet Ibrahim and Prophet Jesus, then there is nothing more that I can add to my argument. The "except Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.)" phrase is probably the reason they are still being referred to as muslims. It is surprising that this great leader of all the prophets doesn't deserve a single mention of his name in the Quran. Infact belief in him isn't even a condition for being a muslim in the Quran. Belief in the prophets is a condition for being a muslim.

[Muslim First]

Br anajmi

Do you know many Ismailis believe that Prophet SAW is accidentical Prophet. Gibreal AS just made mistake and revealed Qur'an to Muhammad instead of Ali.

There are some strange postins on ismaili.com

[humble_servant_us]

From your first three sentences above, it can be inferred that you're saying that Allah (s.w.t) is not pleased with Hazrat Ali. Is that what you mean?
No. Allah may be pleased with Hazrat Ali. Allah may be pleased with a lot of others who lived and died for Islam.

Actually you statement for Hazrat Ali is wrong (the word "may"). There is no doubt among all muslims shias and sunnis about allah(as) being pleased with hazrat ali because shias use A.s for him and sunnis use k.w.(karmallaho tala wjhol karim) while for other sahabas sunnis use r.a. (may allah be pleased with them). So there is a doubt of Allah's pleasure for the sahabas, which itself is a distiction between Ali and rest.

We were discussing "Ya Ali Madad". When I said "Ya Mohammad", I wanted to say "Ya Mohammad Madad". You won't find any shia saying "Ya Mohammad Madad" or "Ya Hussain Madad".

I think you do not have a problem with the word "madad" but its the word "ali", "shia" which upsets you. If we say "ya muhammed madad", still you will find some reason to attribute shirk to us.

Also, in your last line, are you trying to say that the intercession of the Prophet won't be accepted?
No. I am not saying that it won't be accepted. I am saying I don't know. The most qualified person for intercession is prophet Mohammad (saw). He was sent as a mercy to all mankind. We won't have to go to Hazrat Ali for intercession.

Agreed, the most qualified person for intercession is prophet(pbuh). This means intercession could be OK and not shirk. Maybe once you can accept prophet(pbuh) as you intercessor than intercession of ahlul bait(as) could be discussed. At this point as you said "you don't know" about intercession so no point in discussing.

Did you just compare Allah's favourite servants with Satan (I know, stupid question, but resembling some of yours). Satan is a jinn. Their creation is such that they have these powers. Unless you are saying that Hazrat Ali turned into a jinn after his death, this comparison is baseless.

I always though humans are ashraful maklukaat, the best among all creation. If allah(swt) can give the powers to jinns, why not Allah(swt) give the powers to his best creation. Humans have a great potential of reaching great heights which need to be explored. Ali(as) said-Do not think you are a microcosm, the greater world is enfolded within you, and you are the clear book of Existence.

I am sure I don't need to copy-paste the merits of Ali from Sunni sources.
No you don't, because I can paste merits of the other sahabas from the same sources.

Merits of sahabas are only accepted by one sect, merits of Ali(as) are accepted by all sects.

When we call out 'Ya Ali madad', we do not think of Ali (a.s) as Allah or a partner of Allah (s.w.t).
This is similar to the arguments presented by the pagans of mecca when they claimed that the idols were only a means to accessing Allah.

Isn't Muhammed(pbuh) a means of getting nearer to Allah(swt). If "yes", then there is a possibility of other humans also having this capacity.

My argument is very simple. As long as you stick to the means mentioned clearly in the Quran, you are ok.

Correction- As long as you stick to "Quran and ahlul-bait", you are OK. Hadis-e-Thaqlayn is well accepted by all shias and sunnis.

The shias have made Hazrat Ali the center of their universe instead of Allah. Their argument is a couple of statement made by the prophet (saw).

For shias Allah(swt) is the center of all the worship. Creator and created cannot be compared. You assumption is absolutely false

They have interpreted those statements as giving Hazrat Ali powers similar to those of Allah. Why can't you seek Allah's help directly when Allah says that he is closer to you than your own jugular. Why do the shia insist on putting Hazrat Ali in the middle? There is absolutely no reason valid enough in the Quran or in the Sunnah of the prophet. Hazrat Ali himself has never asked the muslims to do this.

As said Creator and created cannot be compared. Allah(swt) powers are infinite and surely all help is from only allah(swt). The prophet(pbuh) and his ahlulbait(as) are the doors to seek nearness to Allah(swt). After the prophet the imams are the leaders divinely appointed by Allah(swt) to guide us.

A sincere request, don't see what shias practice, reflect on what the ahlul bait school of thought preaches.You will find nothing in contrary to the quran and sunnah of the prophet(pbuh). After the prophet(pbuh) the lives of imams is a perfect example of taqwa, submission and sacrifice in the way of Allah(swt).

[humble_servant_us]

Br anajmi
Do you know many Ismailis believe that Prophet SAW is accidentical Prophet. Gibreal AS just made mistake and revealed Qur'an to Muhammad instead of Ali.
There are some strange postins on ismaili.com

Others may have this view, shias do not have this view.

For us prophet(pbuh) was a prophet(pbuh) always, even before beasat (first 40 years). Ali(as) was his successor.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fyi-

In 9 A.H. (630), Muhammad prepared to lead an expedition against Syria, and to fight the Battle of Tabuk. He did not want to leave Madinah unguarded, since there were suspicions regarding the safety of the city, and decided to leave Ali behind as his deputy. Ali asked if he was going to be left behind with the women and children[1] [1]

. Muhammad is reported to have said:

"Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses, except that after me there will be no other prophet?" (Ibn Majah, Sunan[2])(Bukhari)

[profastian]

Br. muslim first is correct. I am an ex-bohra. The beauty about becoming an ex-bohra is that when you become an ex-bohra, you cannot become a shia ithna ashari or anything else unless you go register with those clans. When you become an ex-anything-shia, you automatically become a muslim. It is quite liberating. I think you all should try it.

I had someone say a good thing once. How do you feel when you go to the mosque? Do you feel like a fish in water or do you feel like a criminal in jail wanting to get out? When I used to go to the markaz, I felt like a criminal in jail wanting to run to freedom. I now go to the mosque at least twice a day, fajr and isha and feel like a fish in water.

I'd like to clarify something about the 'registration' part. Before accepting the Isna Ashari faith, I asked the same question to an Alim. He replied that registration in the heart is more important. Formal registration is not required as such. However, in certain cases, it becomes crucial. Suppose you're an Isna Ashari in Taqayya (born as a Bohra)and you die. There's got to be some proof if you wanted to be buried in an Isna Ashari burial ground. If you're openly Isna Ashari, no one would object to your burial anyway.

Matters of faith concern the heart. Allah (swt) knows your heart and will judge you according to what it contains. Registration on a piece of paper is for worldly purposes.

Why is everybody concerned about where any body gets buried? what does it matter where anybody gets buried when they die?

[asif786]

. Muhammad is reported to have said:

"Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses, except that after me there will be no other prophet?" (Ibn Majah, Sunan[2])(Bukhari)[/quote]

You know there is only 3 hadiths in bukhari in praise of Ali a.s , No matter how much people have tried to hide the merits of Ali but Allah swt is the master planner of All The above hadith of Musa as and Harun a.s should be matched with Al quran and you will get the answer of sucessor of rasullah saw .

[asif786]

I'd like to clarify something about the 'registration' part. Before accepting the Isna Ashari faith, I asked the same question to an Alim. He replied that registration in the heart is more important. Formal registration is not required as such. However, in certain cases, it becomes crucial. Suppose you're an Isna Ashari in Taqayya (born as a Bohra)and you die. There's got to be some proof if you wanted to be buried in an Isna Ashari burial ground. If you're openly Isna Ashari, no one would object to your burial anyway.

Matters of faith concern the heart. Allah (swt) knows your heart and will judge you according to what it contains. Registration on a piece of paper is for worldly purposes.

Why is everybody concerned about where any body gets buried? what does it matter where anybody gets buried when they die?

Protastian bhai

kai tu likho mauli ali nee shaan maa aa wahabi o ne samjha wa mate?

[incredible]

^doing dawah is not allowed to dawoodi bohras

[Mubarak]

. Muhammad is reported to have said:

"Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses, except that after me there will be no other prophet?" (Ibn Majah, Sunan[2])(Bukhari)

You know there is only 3 hadiths in bukhari in praise of Ali a.s , No matter how much people have tried to hide the merits of Ali but Allah swt is the master planner of All The above hadith of Musa as and Harun a.s should be matched with Al quran and you will get the answer of sucessor of rasullah saw .

O' Muslim First, please don't commit sucide!

[Muslim First]

Mubarak Sheikh Saheb
AS

Object of true Muslim is to worship Allah SWT, remember him all the time and thank him for all the niyamat showered on him by all mighty. As I Muslim I do not spend my time favoring or cursing one Sahaba or other. For me and other Sunnis and unlike you and Shias it is a side show. Lot of energy is wasted in currying favors from relatives of the Prophet, Dead or alive saints and useless by visiting off so called religious places. My job is to pray 5 times and on time and with Khushoo and follow Sunnah of Prophet as much as I can. If it is not in Qur'an or Sunnah then you will find me not doing it.

As far as committing suicide please note that it is Haraam in Islam. I am living on borrowed time (Subhan Allah) and I am going to enjoy every minute of it.

Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

BTW I am in bed hooked up to machine, pretty soon I will swich over to portable life support, visit my business to check on my employees and then spend rest of afternoon playing with grand kids in fresh snow. Alhmdo Lillah it is wonderful life. Tell me why should I shed tears over hidtory of Islam and waste my time.

[Mubarak]

Mubarak Sheikh Saheb
AS

Object of true Muslim is to worship Allah SWT, remember him all the time and thank him for all the niyamat showered on him by all mighty. As I Muslim I do not spend my time favoring or cursing one Sahaba or other. For me and other Sunnis and unlike you and Shias it is a side show. Lot of energy is wasted in currying favors from relatives of the Prophet, Dead or alive saints and useless by visiting off so called religious places. My job is to pray 5 times and on time and with Khushoo and follow Sunnah of Prophet as much as I can. If it is not in Qur'an or Sunnah then you will find me not doing it.

As far as committing suicide please note that it is Haraam in Islam. I am living on borrowed time (Subhan Allah) and I am going to enjoy every minute of it.

Wasalaam

Walekum afzal salam

Dear brother Muslim First, May Allah bless u with best of health and long life.

Have Allah ever told you in person that Allah is Allah and pray to Allah?

In entire history of Earth, have Allah ever conversed with general humans in person or otherwise that I am Allah and pray to me?

If Allah don't approach you directly, by the same token can you (prayers) approach Allah directly?

[Muslim First]

If Allah don't approach you directly, by the same token can you (prayers) approach Allah directly?

Now this is dumb.

Read Qur'an

[incredible]

quraan about listening prayers...


The Qur'an repeatedly emphasizes God's extraordinary closeness and proximity to the human heart (e.g., at 8:24, "He passes between the man and his heart"), as well as the uniquely all-encompassing divine knowledge of "what is in their hearts" (4:66, 33:51, etc.).


"Surely there is a Reminder in that for whoever has a heart, or listens attentively, while he is witnessing..." (Qur'ân 50:37)

[anajmi]

If Allah don't approach you directly, by the same token can you (prayers) approach Allah directly?

Yeah. Only the idol worshippers cannot approach Allah directly. They have to approach Allah through their idols. Those who worship Allah alone, they can approach Allah directly.

[anajmi]

. Muhammad is reported to have said:

"Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses, except that after me there will be no other prophet?" (Ibn Majah, Sunan[2])(Bukhari)
You know there is only 3 hadiths in bukhari in praise of Ali a.s , No matter how much people have tried to hide the merits of Ali but Allah swt is the master planner of All The above hadith of Musa as and Harun a.s should be matched with Al quran and you will get the answer of sucessor of rasullah saw .

The prophet (saw) is also reported to have said that if there were to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar.

Fortunately, you won't find the sunnis shouting "Ya Umar Madad"!!

[incredible]

No prophet have ever worshiped any idol.but umar was the idol worshipper before he came to islaam.it shows that this hadith is fabricated and lie by aisha or hafsa.

[anajmi]

Who is better? One who was an idol worshipper before coming to Islam or one who became an idol worshipper after coming to Islam?

[anajmi]

Actually you statement for Hazrat Ali is wrong (the word "may"). There is no doubt among all muslims shias and sunnis about allah(as) being pleased with hazrat ali because shias use A.s for him and sunnis use k.w.(karmallaho tala wjhol karim) while for other sahabas sunnis use r.a. (may allah be pleased with them). So there is a doubt of Allah's pleasure for the sahabas, which itself is a distiction between Ali and rest.

Suffixes given by humans do not mean much if they are used as an excuse to start idol worship. I can add (r.a.) after Yazid's name and it starts havoc amongst the shia. Hazrat Ali is considered by 90% of the Ummah as one of the 10 who have been guaranteed heaven on earth. This 10 includes some people that the shia hate the most.

I think you do not have a problem with the word "madad" but its the word "ali", "shia" which upsets you. If we say "ya muhammed madad", still you will find some reason to attribute shirk to us.

The reason you have chosen "Ya Ali Madad" is because you worship Hazrat Ali. You can deny it all day long, but that is what it means.

Merits of sahabas are only accepted by one sect, merits of Ali(as) are accepted by all sects.

Merits of sahaba are accepted by 90% of muslims. The remaining 10% who only talk about Hazrat Ali's merits are the ones who are idol worshippers of Hazrat Ali.

always though humans are ashraful maklukaat, the best among all creation. If allah(swt) can give the powers to jinns, why not Allah(swt) give the powers to his best creation. Humans have a great potential of reaching great heights which need to be explored. Ali(as) said-Do not think you are a microcosm, the greater world is enfolded within you, and you are the clear book of Existence.

By the same token, I can claim that I can run faster than a cheetah and you have to believe me because Allah gave me that power. If Allah can give the power of running fast to the cheetah, then why not me?

Agreed, the most qualified person for intercession is prophet(pbuh). This means intercession could be OK and not shirk. Maybe once you can accept prophet(pbuh) as you intercessor than intercession of ahlul bait(as) could be discussed. At this point as you said "you don't know" about intercession so no point in discussing.

Correct there is no point in discussing. The prophet (saw) is the most qualified for intercession. and as per hadith, on the day of judgment, the prophet will intercede on behalf of the entire Ummah. I believe that and hence I do not need to invoke intercession from Hazrat Ali.

Isn't Muhammed(pbuh) a means of getting nearer to Allah(swt). If "yes", then there is a possibility of other humans also having this capacity.

Yes. You should learn from the life of prophet Muhammad and you should learn from the life of the other humans like Hazrat Ali. "Ya Ali Madad" is shirk.

Correction- As long as you stick to "Quran and ahlul-bait", you are OK. Hadis-e-Thaqlayn is well accepted by all shias and sunnis.

The Quran doesn't teach "Ya Ali Madad" and neither did the ahlul bait. Quran and ahlul bait is accepted. I haven't been hearing anything from the ahlul bait and if I do not understand something from the Quran, I cannot go to the ahlul bait. I can only go to the corrupt Amil of the corrupt Dai. So what I am left with is the Quran and the Sunnah.

For shias Allah(swt) is the center of all the worship. Creator and created cannot be compared. You assumption is absolutely false

My assumption is absolutely correct. You will never hear a shia say "Ya Allah Madad". You will always hear them say "Ya Ali Madad". You will hear them say Nare Haideri far more often than Nare Takbeer. I know because I was a shia for the first 25 years of my life.

After the prophet the imams are the leaders divinely appointed by Allah(swt) to guide us.

As I have said before, if I need to learn something, there is no Imam that I can go to. The Imam has dissappeared and left a corrupt Dai in his place.

[incredible]

Who is better? One who was an idol worshipper before coming to Islam or one who became an idol worshipper after coming to Islam?

no muslim sect worships idols and if they does they arent muslims any more...umar was lanati and hadith which u wrote for him is fabricated and fake.

[anajmi]

Actually 90% of the muslims believe the hadith to be true. I do too. Yet, you still won't hear them saying "Ya Umar Madad". Hazrat Umar was not a laanati. He was a great khalifa and Islam reached far and wide under his reign. Hazrat Ali served him too. Infact Hazrat Umar appointed Hazrat Ali as his deputy when he went to Jerusalem. It shows that there was no enemity between Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Umar. This enemity has been created later on by the worshippers of Hazrat Ali to justify their worship.