ex bohra's

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: ex bohra's

#91

Unread post by asif786 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:17 pm

anajmi wrote:
asif786 wrote:. Muhammad is reported to have said:

"Are you not pleased to have the position (manzilah) in relation to me as that Aaron had in relation to Moses, except that after me there will be no other prophet?" (Ibn Majah, Sunan[2])(Bukhari)
You know there is only 3 hadiths in bukhari in praise of Ali a.s , No matter how much people have tried to hide the merits of Ali but Allah swt is the master planner of All :) The above hadith of Musa as and Harun a.s should be matched with Al quran and you will get the answer of sucessor of rasullah saw .
The prophet (saw) is also reported to have said that if there were to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar.

Fortunately, you won't find the sunnis shouting "Ya Umar Madad"!!
Anajmi

Are you serious abt this hadith?
-From where you got this hadith? which book? who are the narrators of this hadith?
-It is kufr to think anybody as prophet after rasullah saw
-Can you prove this hadith from quran? remember rasullah does not say anything without the permission allah swt
-Why Abubakr became first caliph when prophet like figure Umar ibn Khattab was present ?

I would suggest you to learn the science of hadith before posting

Just try saying yaa umar madad and see what happens :D

BTW you did not quote the relevant ayahs from Quran with regards to Musa and harun ? since there is a hadith from the best book shahih bukharih after holy quran .

i am going on 2 weeks holiday so will not be able to reply unless the blackberry allows me

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: ex bohra's

#92

Unread post by incredible » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:20 pm

anajmi wrote:Actually 90% of the muslims believe the hadith to be true. I do too. Yet, you still won't hear them saying "Ya Umar Madad". Hazrat Umar was not a laanati. He was a great khalifa and Islam reached far and wide under his reign. Hazrat Ali served him too. Infact Hazrat Umar appointed Hazrat Ali as his deputy when he went to Jerusalem. It shows that there was no enemity between Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Umar. This enemity has been created later on by the worshippers of Hazrat Ali to justify their worship.

Ali was appointed deputy just because maloon umar's army failed to concure jerussalam,and finally imam Ali went there and he got the victory just for the name sake of islaam.

btw no body restricts u to say "ya umar" or "ya iblis" they both are one and the same...u can call them for help if you want,but what ever will be the consiquence u will be responsible for it.

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: ex bohra's

#93

Unread post by asif786 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:24 pm

Suffixes given by humans do not mean much if they are used as an excuse to start idol worship. I can add (r.a.) after Yazid's name and it starts havoc amongst the shia. Hazrat Ali is considered by 90% of the Ummah as one of the 10 who have been guaranteed heaven on earth. This 10 includes some people that the shia hate the most.

Anajmi

DO you want to study the biography of the remaining 9? let me know and i will send with proof from sunni books

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: ex bohra's

#94

Unread post by asif786 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:29 pm

anajmi wrote:Actually 90% of the muslims believe the hadith to be true. I do too. Yet, you still won't hear them saying "Ya Umar Madad". Hazrat Umar was not a laanati. He was a great khalifa and Islam reached far and wide under his reign. Hazrat Ali served him too. Infact Hazrat Umar appointed Hazrat Ali as his deputy when he went to Jerusalem. It shows that there was no enemity between Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Umar. This enemity has been created later on by the worshippers of Hazrat Ali to justify their worship.
You are very naive and bhola bhala muslim . I dont understand muslims when it comes to personal life like buying things for personal use will check everything before buying but when it comes to religion they will accept knowledge from every tom , dick and harry without first doing any kind of research of the narrators etc . wah bhai wah

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: ex bohra's

#95

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:37 pm

Are you serious abt this hadith?
-From where you got this hadith? which book? who are the narrators of this hadith?
-It is kufr to think anybody as prophet after rasullah saw
-Can you prove this hadith from quran? remember rasullah does not say anything without the permission allah swt
-Why Abubakr became first caliph when prophet like figure Umar ibn Khattab was present ?
Yes. I am serious about this hadith
Do a search on google and you will find all information about that hadith. I am sure blackberry allows google search.
No one is thinking Umar is prophet. The problem with idol worshippers is that they do not understand anything.
Can you prove succession of Hazrat Ali from Quran?
Why Abu Bakr became the first khalif when Hazrat Ali was present?

Thank God you are going on holiday.
Ali was appointed deputy just because maloon umar's army failed to concure jerussalam,and finally imam Ali went there and he got the victory just for the name sake of islaam.
Can you prove this from the Quran? If you cannot, then ask asif. I am sure he can.

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: ex bohra's

#96

Unread post by asif786 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:59 pm

anajmi wrote:
Are you serious abt this hadith?
-From where you got this hadith? which book? who are the narrators of this hadith?
-It is kufr to think anybody as prophet after rasullah saw
-Can you prove this hadith from quran? remember rasullah does not say anything without the permission allah swt
-Why Abubakr became first caliph when prophet like figure Umar ibn Khattab was present ?
Yes. I am serious about this hadith
Do a search on google and you will find all information about that hadith. I am sure blackberry allows google search.
No one is thinking Umar is prophet. The problem with idol worshippers is that they do not understand anything.
Can you prove succession of Hazrat Ali from Quran?
Why Abu Bakr became the first khalif when Hazrat Ali was present?

Thank God you are going on holiday.
Ali was appointed deputy just because maloon umar's army failed to concure jerussalam,and finally imam Ali went there and he got the victory just for the name sake of islaam.
Can you prove this from the Quran? If you cannot, then ask asif. I am sure he can.
Anajmi

I am still present sir , as rasullah saw has said if my hadith is not in line with quran than throw it on wall and I will do the same.

Bye najmisaab , other forum members will keep u busy with shia and sunni debate

Btw you are saying atleast 100 times in a day idol worshippers that I hope you don't become a pujari in of the mandirs,
Firt bohra than sunni than wahabi and finally pujari. Just joikin

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: ex bohra's

#97

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:12 pm

as rasullah saw has said if my hadith is not in line with quran than throw it on wall and I will do the same.
Can you prove that rasulallah said this from the Quran?

SBM
Posts: 6508
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: ex bohra's

#98

Unread post by SBM » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:28 pm

^
Everyone is asking to prove their point of view from Quran, there are lot of things which are not clarified in Quran like how to perform Salah, how to do Wadu
and many other things, let us stop quoting Quran for every piece of debate.

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: ex bohra's

#99

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:27 pm

omabharti,

You are right. Asking to prove hadith from Quran doesn't make sense. The reason I asked was to show precisely that. When asif asked me to prove the hadith from Quran I wanted to show that the Quran wasn't revealed to prove hadith. The way to authenticate hadith is to see if the chain of narrators is acceptable and if the hadith doesn't contradict the Quran.

The hadith about the prophet (saw) saying that if Allah were to send a prophet after Muhammad (saw) it would've been Umar, has an acceptable chain of narrotors and it doesn't contradict the Quran in anyway. It only contradicts people's beliefs in other people.

asif786
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:40 am

Re: ex bohra's

#100

Unread post by asif786 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:45 pm

anajmi wrote:omabharti,

You are right. Asking to prove hadith from Quran doesn't make sense. The reason I asked was to show precisely that. When asif asked me to prove the hadith from Quran I wanted to show that the Quran wasn't revealed to prove hadith. The way to authenticate hadith is to see if the chain of narrators is acceptable and if the hadith doesn't contradict the Quran.

The hadith about the prophet (saw) saying that if Allah were to send a prophet after Muhammad (saw) it would've been Umar, has an acceptable chain of narrotors and it doesn't contradict the Quran in anyway. It only contradicts people's beliefs in other people.
Kindly provide the chain of narrators and we will prove tha
t they were the biggest liars and give reasons how it does not contradict the quran?

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: ex bohra's

#101

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:36 pm

Mubarak
Dear brother Muslim First, May Allah bless u with best of health and long life.

Have Allah ever told you in person that Allah is Allah and pray to Allah?

In entire history of Earth, have Allah ever conversed with general humans in person or otherwise that I am Allah and pray to me?

If Allah don't approach you directly, by the same token can you (prayers) approach Allah directly?
Sheikh Saheb

Even if I post something, some people like you do not read

Here it is, please read, it might profit you
Praise to Allah alone and peace and blessing are upon the Prophet of Allah, the members of his family and his companions and on all those who shall until Day of Judgment; proceed on right path shown by Him.

Verily, Allah SWT, the Almighty created mankind and sent the Messengers SA in order that he alone is worshipped. Allah states in Holy Qur’an:

“I have only created jinns and men that they may serve Me.” [51:56]

To worship means to obey the Almighty Allah and the Prophet SAW by carrying out what Allah and His Prophet have ordered us to do by abstaining from what they have forbidden us to do. We carry out these actions with faith, humility and sincere devotion to Allah and His Prophet SAW. The Holy Qur’an states:

“Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him” [17:23

In other words, He has ordained that He alone be worshipped. Allah says in Holy Qur’an:

“Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds; Most Gracious Most Merciful; Master of the Day of Judgment; Thee do we worship and Thine aid we seek.” [1:2-5]

These verses make it amply clear that Allah alone is to be worshipped and His help alone is to be sought. Allah also says:

“So serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion. Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due?” [39:2-3]

And

“Call ye then upon Allah with sincere devotion to Him even though the Unbelievers may detest it.” [40: 14]

And

"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): so invoke not anyone along with Allah.” [72:18]

There are several verses in Holy Qur’an in this context pointing out the necessity and duty to worship Allah alone. Invocation, as you all know, is, in all its forms, a manner of worship; it is therefore not permissible for anybody to invoke anyone and to neither seek the help of anyone nor plead assistance from anyone except Allah, as stated in above verses. However, in matters pertaining the daily routine of life and in connection with material things on which every human being has control, a person may seek help of another person; this is not worship; a person may for example, one may ask help from his colleague either directly or by correspondence to the building of his house or repairing his car. In this context, Allah SWT says while narrating the story of the Prophet Moses S.A.,

“Now the man of his own religion appealed to him against his foe,” [28:15]

The help and aid that a man seeks from his fellow human beings at times of Jihad and conflict is like the above said help. But seeking help and aid from the dead, the Jinns, the Angels, the trees and the Stone is an act of major polytheism; it is similar to practices of polytheists of early ages with their gods such as Al-Uzza and Al-Latt, etc. Similarly, it is an act of polytheism to believe that certain human beings enjoy or possess certain super natural powers which belong only to Allah SWT. It is believed that such people can help in curing the sick and attaining the paradise and salvation from hell.

The verses quoted above and the saying of the Prophet emphasizes the need to guide all people to the path of Allah in all matters and to be sincere in worshipping Allah and only Allah in all matters and to be sincere in worshipping Allah and Allah only because all human beings have been created for that purpose and had been thus ordained as mentioned in the versed quoted above, Allah SWT also Says:

“Serve Allah, and join not any partners with him.” [4:36]

And

“And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah offering Him sincere devotion being True (in faith),--“ [98:5]

And Prophet SAW has said as narrated by Muaadh:

“It is Allah’s right over the worshippers that they worship only him and do not associate anyone with him”

And Prophet SAW has said in another tradition narrated by Masud and recorded by Imam Bukhari:

“Whoever dies while invoking someone as rival to Allah will be doomed to hell”

When Prophet SAW sent the companion Muaadh to Yemen, he said to him, “You shall be meeting people who profess faith in revealed Book; therefore, your plea to them should be to profess the Statement of faith: “THERE IS NO GOD EXCEPT ALLAH AND THAT I (Muhammad) AM THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH;” In the narration of Imam Bukhari it is mentioned as [/I] “Plead to them to until they accept oneness of Allah.”[/i]

It is narrated in the collections of Traditions (Hdith) compiled by Imam Muslim that according to a saying by Tarek Ibn Ashyam Al-Ashjayi that Prophet SAW said:

“Whoever accepts oneness of Allah and disbelieves whatever is worshipped other then Allah enjoys the protection from Allah in his wealth, blood and his reward is with Allah”

There are numerous traditions on this subject.

The faith in oneness of Allah is the sum and substance of the religion of Islam; it is the basic principle and most important of all the duties. And it is for this purpose that the human beings and the Jinns were created. It was for same object that the Messengers of Allah SWT were sent. We had earlier quoted several verses from holy Qur’an affirming this fact. Among such verses are:

“I have only created jinns and men that they may serve Me. (Q-51: 56)

and

“For we assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle, (with the Command), Serve Allah, and eschew Evil" (Q 16:36)

and

“Not an apostle did We send before thee without this inspiration sent by Us to him that there is no god but I; therefore worship and serve Me." (Q21: 25)

Referring to Prophets Noah, Hud, Saleh and Sooib PBU All of them Allah SWT says that these prophets advised their peoples:

"O my people! Worship Allah! ye have no other god but Him.” [7:59]

These were the message of all the Prophets. All those who oppose the Prophets have themselves confessed that the Prophets commanded them to worship Allah only and to give up the worship of all other gods. The Holy Qur’an says in this context, referring to the story of Aad that they told Prophet Hud SAW.

“They said: "Comest thou to us that we may worship Allah alone and give up the cult of our fathers? Bring us what thou threatenest us with if so be that thou tellest the truth!" [7:70]

And Allah SWT says about the people of the tribe of Quraish when our prophet Muhammad SAWS, to worship Allah only, called them upon, to give up worshipping the Angels, the friends (read here; saints and walis) and guides (read here; Dais and Mullahs) , idols and trees etc.;

"Has he made the gods (all) into one Allah? Truly this is a wonderful thing!” [38:5]

And

“For they, when they were told that there is no god except Allah, would puff themselves up with pride, and say: "What! Shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?" [37:35-36]

There are many verses in Holy Qur’an and Sayings of the Holy prophet SAWS which expounds this concept. May Allah grant us success to us all in understanding our religion and educating ourselves regarding the true path of Allah.

All the invocations and different expressions seeking help and succor are various forms of polytheism because they are addressed as worship to other then Allah; and they seek to achieve things thru the dead and the departed whereas Allah alone can achieve things.

Such invocations are worse form of polytheism when compared to polytheism of the early ages because the people of early ages indulged in polytheism only when they enjoined material comfort, peace and luxury, But at times of crises and hardship they worshipped Allah alone because they knew that Allah alone can bring salvation to them from their hardship, The holy Qur’an refers to those polytheists and says;

“Now if they embark on a boat they call on Allah making their devotion sincerely (and exclusively) to Him; but when He had delivered them safely to (dry) land Behold they give a share (of their worship to others)!” [29:65]

And Allah says in another verse;

“When distress seizes you at sea those that ye call upon -besides Himself- leave you in the lurch! But when He brings you back safe to land, ye turn away (from Him). Most ungrateful is man!” [17:67]

If the later day polytheists were to say, “We do not mean that those whose help we seek can by themselves benefit us and cure the sick among us or be of use to us or hurt us; we only mean to seek their intercession with Allah for us, the answer to such an observation should be as follows:

Verily, the unbelievers of the early periods also had the same purpose and desire; they too did not believe that their gods create or give livelihood or do good or harm.

Such a statement will negate what Allah has mentioned about them in the Holy Qur’an. Those unbelievers also claimed that they only sought, through such worship, the intercession and good offices of those whom they worshipped so that they make take them nearer to Allah. Allah says in the Holy Qur’an: in the context of the story of the Prophet Yunus A.S.:

“They serve besides Allah things that hurt them not nor profit them and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say: ‘Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not in the heavens or on earth?’ Glory to Him! And far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!” [10:18]

Thus Allah states in unmistakable words that he has no knowledge of any intercessor from the heavens or from the earth as claimed by the unbelievers. So, the existence of anything not known to Allah does not in fact exist because nothing is hidden from his knowledge. Allah says in the Holy Qur’an:

“The revelation of this Book is from Allah, The Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.
Verily, it is We who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth; so serve Allah offering Him sincere devotion. Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? - -“ [39:1-3]


It evident from these verses that Allah alone is to be worshipped and such worship should be in all sincerity because Allah has commanded the Prophet SAWS to be sincere in worship. The above quoted verse; the word “Ad-Deen” meaning religion in Arabic has been interpreted as worship; worship means obedience to Allah and His Prophet SAWS as stated earlier; it includes invocations, seeking help, fear, hope, vows and sacrifices besides prayers and fasting and other duties ordained by Allah and His prophet SAWS. Later on, Allah says in the Holy Qur’an:

“But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.” [39:3]

Thus the falsehood of their claim that their gods take them nearer to Allah has been exposed and the worship they perform has been described as blasphemy . It should therefore be clear to any person who has minimum of intelligence that the source of blasphemy and polytheism in earlier ages was because Prophets, friends and advisors besides trees and stones and other creations were considered intercessors between worshippers and Allah and they believed that such intercessors achieve for them their hopes and aspirations, needs and ambitions without the permission nor consent of Allah the Almighty. It was considered to be like the recommendation of the ministers to the kings and they (such worshippers) presumed Allah SWT to be equal to kings and leaders therefore, they uttered words which one may utter when making petition to a king or a leader. This is worst form of falsehood because Allah SWT has none similar to Him and He cannot be compared with His own creations; no one intercedes with Him without his permission; intercession is granted only to believers in the Oneness of Allah; Allah is Omnipotent and Omniscient and he is Most Merciful; He does not fear anyone and neither can frighten Him since He has power over all His servants and He alone disposes their affairs as He wills. On the contrary, kings and leaders cannot have power over anything and they don not have knowledge about everything. So they need to have people to assist them in matters, which they are unable to achieve or implement. Hence, an entourage of ministers, advisers and bodyguards, etc always surrounds them. They also need to be informed about those who are in want; this is yet another reason for being surrounded by ministers and advisers. But Allah SWT is above all such needs and all such assistance. He is more merciful to them then their mothers; and He is just ruler who as per His Supreme Knowledge, Wisdom and Ability assigns to its proper place; it is therefore not proper to compare Him with His own creations. It is for this reason that Allah SWT has stated in Qur’an that He is the Creator and the Sustainer; it He who responds to call of one who is in distress and exposes the evil; gives life and takes it away; and does so many other actions, The dispute between the polytheists and the Messenger of the Allah is in fact about sincerity in worshipping Allah Alone. The Holy Qur’an says:

If thou ask them who created them they will certainly say Allah: how then are they deluded away (from the Truth)? [43:87]

And

Say: "Who is it that sustains you (in life) from the sky and from the earth? Or who is it that has power over hearing and sight? And who is it that brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living? And who is it that rules and regulates all affairs?" They will soon say "Allah." Say, "Will ye not then show piety (to Him)?" [10:31]

There are several verses in his context in the Holy Qur’an. We had earlier referred to the verses that point out that, the dispute between the Messenger of Allah and the nations was regarding sincerity in worshipping Allah alone. we may quote another verse:

For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle (with the Command) "Serve Allah and eschew Evil" [16:36]

Regarding intercession, Allah SWT has mentioned in several places in Holy Qur’an the real meaning of intercession. We may for example quote:

Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? [2:255]

Allah will not accept from His worshippers blasphemy, heathenism; He will accept only gratitude expressed by the belief in oneness of Allah and obedience to Him. It is stated in the Holy Quran:

It ye reject (Allah) truly Allah has no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful He is pleased with you. [39:7]

It is narrated in the Collections of Traditions (Hadith) compiled by Imam Bukhari that Abu Hurayra said that when he asked the Prophet SAW, “Who shall be most happy people with your intercession, O Prophet of Allah?” The Prophet said, “He who says that there is no god except Allah, and says so with all the sincerity of his heart (or of his self).” [/I]

It is narrated on the authority of Anas R.A. that the Prophet SAW said, “Every Prophet has a plea responded to; and every Prophet hastened to make his plea while I withheld mine, so I may intercede for my Ummah (nation) on the Day of Judgment; and by the will of Allah my intercession will include all my Ummah who have departed from this world without setting up partners to Allah in worship.”

There are several verses in the Holy Qur’an and several Traditions of the Prophet which emphasize the fact that worship is a right preserved for Allah alone and it is not permissible to perform any worship to anyone other then Allah, whether they may be Prophets or any other person. They also emphasize the fact that intercession is with Allah, the Almighty Alone as said in Qur’an:

“ Say: "To Allah belongs exclusively (the right to grant) Intercession: “ [39:44]

No one shall deserve intercession except by His permission. And He, the Almighty, will permit for intercession to person who only believes in Oneness or Allah as stated earlier. Therefore, the polytheists will not be granted intercession. The Holy Qur’an says:

“Then will no intercession of (any) intercessors profit them.” [74:48]


“Neither intimate friend nor intercessors will the wrongdoers have who could be listened to.” [40:18]

The expression “wrong-doers” in these verses is interpreted as the polytheists; this is stated in another verses:

“Those who reject faith they are the wrong-doers.” [2:254]

“For false worship is indeed the highest wrong-doing." [31:13]

With regards to your question concerning some of Sufis (Mystics) who utter in Mosques and some other places phrases such as “O Lord, grant peace and blessings on the one whom you have ordained to be instrumental in unfolding of your mighty secrets and in opening the doors of to sublime lights of Your Mercy and who has thus become your vicegerent and who has inherited your secrets ----etc.” The answer to this question is as follows:

All such utterances are nothing but pedantry and empty talk against which our Prophet SAW has warned us. It is narrated in the collection of Traditions (Hadith) by Imam Muslim on the authority of Abdulla Ibn Masud that the Prophet SAW said: “The Pedants shall be doomed to destruction.” (The Prophet repeated this remark three times). Imam Al-Khattab RA has defined a pedant as one who delves into problems and issues which are beyond his intellectual abilities, as was indulged by the scholastic theologians.

Abus-Sadaat ibnul Athis has said that the pedants are those who show extravagance in their speech and try to speak loudly. The Arabic word for this expression “Mutanatti” “is derived from Nat’ “ meaning forepart of the palate. Later, the word was used for every extravagant either in speech or action.

Any person, eve with limited intelligence, will understand from the above that such utterances referred to, in praise of our Prophet SAW is for of affection and pedantry forbidden in our religion. The correct approach for a Muslim in this context should be to learn the Traditional method of praying on the Prophet SAW. Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim have narrated in their collection on the authority of Kabb RA that the Companions of the Prophet SAW said to the Prophet “O Prophet of Allah, we have been ordained to pray on you; how shall we pray on you?” The Prophet Said, “Say, O Lord, bless Muhammad and the family of the Muhammad as you blessed Ibrahim and the family of Ibrahim; verily thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious; and O Lord; grant your benedictions to Muhammad and the family of Muhammad as you granted to Ibrahim and the family of the Ibrahim; verily thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious.”

It is also narrated in the collections of Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim on the authority of Abi Masud Al-Ansari RA that Basheer Ibn-Sa’ad said: “O Prophet of Allah, Allah has ordered us to pray on you; so how shall we pray on you?” The Prophet remained silent for few moments and then said: “Say, O Lord, bless Muhammad and the family of the Muhammad as you blessed Ibrahim and the family of Ibrahim; verily thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious.” This is the prayer taught to you.”

All such utterances that are authentically attributed to the Prophet SAW should be only utterances used by a Muslim whenever he seeks to pray for the prophet and ask Allah’s benediction for him. A Muslim should abide only by these authentic words because the Prophet SAW knows best regarding words that are to be used for him and he also knows best regarding the words that are to used for His Lord. All innovated and affected words and phrases besides the words which are loaded with the possibility of incorrect connotations such as words mentioned in your query; such words should not be used because they are affected forms of speech because they can be interpreted with false meanings and also for the reason they are different from the words selected by the Prophet of Allah SAW. He has instructed his Ummah (nation) and he is best informed among all human beings and most righteous; he is the least inclined to affections. May the best of peace and blessings of our Lord on him. I hope the discussion I have in these pages, supported by the adequate proofs, shall suffice in explaining the truth of the doctrine of the Oneness of Allah and exposing polytheism besides explaining the difference between the polytheist of the early ages and those of the later ages in this regard.

A person who seeks to know truth should be convinced by the explanation given regarding the permissible form of prayer on the Prophet SAW. But if a person has no desire to know the truth, he can indulge in his own fanciful thoughts. Allah has referred to them in the Holy Quran and said:

“But if they hearken not to thee know that they only follow their own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts devoid of guidance from Allah? For Allah guides not people given to wrongdoing.” [28:50]

In the above verse Allah SWT has classified the people in two groups with regard to their attitude to our Prophet Muhammad SAW and his mission; one group responds to Allah and His messenger whereas the other group follows its own lusts and Allah says that those who follow their lusts are deprived of all guidance from Him.

We pray Allah SWT that we may be safe from becoming the followers of lusts and may Allah make you and all of us among those who always abide by the path of Allah and His Messenger SAW and by those who enlighten us about His Divine Law (Sharia) and caution us against the fanciful opinions. Peace and Blessings be on His slave and Messenger, Our Prophet Muhammad and on his Family, his companions and his followers until the Day of Judgment.
Wasalaam

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: ex bohra's

#102

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:00 am

Kindly provide the chain of narrators and we will prove tha
t they were the biggest liars and give reasons how it does not contradict the quran?
asif,

Why don't you fools understand that my point wasn't about whether the hadith is true of false. My point was that 90% of the people believe it to be true and even then they don't say "Ya Umar Madad". If you want the chain of narrators, use google.

Now stop wasting my time and enjoy your holiday.

incredible
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Re: ex bohra's

#103

Unread post by incredible » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:34 am

anajmi wrote:
The prophet (saw) is also reported to have said that if there were to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar.

Fortunately, you won't find the sunnis shouting "Ya Umar Madad"!!

and the same umar said

"umar would have perished if Ali(a.s) would not be there"

sixfeetunder
Posts: 433
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Re: ex bohra's

#104

Unread post by sixfeetunder » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:15 am

incredible wrote:
anajmi wrote:
The prophet (saw) is also reported to have said that if there were to be a prophet after me, it would be Umar.

Fortunately, you won't find the sunnis shouting "Ya Umar Madad"!!

and the same umar said

"umar would have perished if Ali(a.s) would not be there"
If Sunnis would shout 'Ya Umar madad', it is possible that Umar would ask Maula Ali (a.s) for help like he did several times during his own caliphate. Eventually, it would be Maula Ali (a.s) who would help the hapless Sunni, with the grace of Allah (s.w.t)

Jokes apart, I have always wondered how our Sunni brothers can accept such ahadith! Just imagine what kind of a Prophet Umar would make! A swashbuckling prophet who brandishes his sword at the drop of a hat! A Prophet who doubts another Prophet's prophethood! A Prophet who doesn't know the finer nuances of punishment for adultery! A Prophet who allows instant divorce! The Saudis would love him! A Prophet who loves burning libraries full of knowledge! A Prophet who calls his previous Prophet 'delirious'. A Prophet who claims that the book of Allah is sufficient and obstructs his previous Prophet from writing his will! A Prophet who is reminded by a woman that 'Mahr' amount cannot be a 'fixed' one! A Prophet who doesn't know the verses of the Qur'an and threatens to behead people if they say that a Prophet has died! A Prophet who cannot decide on a successor and needs a six-member panel with weird rules to appoint one after his death!

Wow! What a Prophet! May Allah (s.w.t) save us from such Prophets. Ameen. Thumma Ameen.

incredible
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Re: ex bohra's

#105

Unread post by incredible » Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:57 am

^ hehe correct he would have made a comic prophet in the history of human kind.

Mubarak
Posts: 471
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Re: ex bohra's

#106

Unread post by Mubarak » Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:01 am

Brother Asif, Incredible, SFU

Alhamdolillah, you have wrote appealingly and convincingly. After reading yours last few post, I recited ‘subhanallah’.

FYI, in conversation between me and Anajmi, particularly in thread, “Quran 2:184 Bohras v/s rest”, I personally concluded brother Anajmi is intellectually dishonest. Porus bhai categorize brother Anajmi as “Jahil”.

Keep the good work up.

anajmi
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Re: ex bohra's

#107

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:07 pm

sixfeetunder,

It's a pity you just chose to insult Hazrat Umar when you have the opportunity to answer every question that I have raised intellectually.

I could list such items about Hazrat Ali. Let me just recite one which drove shias crazy and they started calling for the head of Israr Ahmed. The ayah about not praying while drunk was revealed after Hazrat Ali stood up for prayer while being drunk and recited the Quran wrong.

We could go on and on. I have said many times before. These people were human and not Gods like the shia have made Hazrat Ali out to be. Did you know Hazrat Abu Bakr paid for Hazrat Ali's marriage to Hazrat Fatima? Did you know what the Quran says about Hazrat Abu Bakr when he accompanied the prophet (saw) on the hijra? That the third one with them was Allah.

Please do not disrespect the great sahaba of Islam. They all had their faults. So did Hazrat Ali. But in order to justify the worship of Hazrat Ali, it becomes necessary for the shia to disrespect and insult the rest of the great sahabas.

incredible
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Re: ex bohra's

#108

Unread post by incredible » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:15 pm

anajmi wrote:sixfeetunder,

It's a pity you just chose to insult Hazrat Umar when you have the opportunity to answer every question that I have raised intellectually.

I could list such items about Hazrat Ali. Let me just recite one which drove shias crazy and they started calling for the head of Israr Ahmed. The ayah about not praying while drunk was revealed after Hazrat Ali stood up for prayer while being drunk and recited the Quran wrong.

We could go on and on. I have said many times before. These people were human and not Gods like the shia have made Hazrat Ali out to be. Did you know Hazrat Abu Bakr paid for Hazrat Ali's marriage to Hazrat Fatima? Did you know what the Quran says about Hazrat Abu Bakr when he accompanied the prophet (saw) on the hijra? That the third one with them was Allah.

Please do not disrespect the great sahaba of Islam. They all had their faults. So did Hazrat Ali. But in order to justify the worship of Hazrat Ali, it becomes necessary for the shia to disrespect and insult the rest of the great sahabas.
u sounds like drunked on christmas eve?

you are forgetting that imam Ali was in the custody of Muhammed mustafa(saw) from his child hood,do u think Muhammed(saw) would allow Ali to go astray and drink alcohol(nauzobillah).

people like u just reminds me of jahil macci and madani who elected abu bakar in sakhifa.forgetting Muhammed (saw) have already chosen his sucessor by the will of Allah in gadir e khum.

incredible
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Re: ex bohra's

#109

Unread post by incredible » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:22 pm

anajmi hear this lecture before u put on crazy claims againt ahlul bayt...


hear the 19th lecture

http://sayedammar.com/popramadhan2008s.html#

anajmi
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Re: ex bohra's

#110

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:25 pm

incredible,

What I think is immaterial. What is written down and what happened is what matters. I do not believe Hazrat Ali is a God like the shia do. So I do not have a problem believing that he might have had alcohol when it was still allowed.

anajmi
Posts: 13508
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: ex bohra's

#111

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:27 pm

incredible,

I am sure the lecture will be no different from what I have been reading on this forum. But this goes like this, you keep insulting the sahabas and I keep posting such items about your own deity. So how about you not attack sahaba and I not bring up items that show you that your deity is just a human?

incredible
Posts: 1034
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:44 pm

Re: ex bohra's

#112

Unread post by incredible » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:30 pm

anajmi wrote:incredible,

I am sure the lecture will be no different from what I have been reading on this forum. But this goes like this, you keep insulting the sahabas and I keep posting such items about your own deity. So how about you not attack sahaba and I not bring up items that show you that your deity is just a human?

i have already confronted your claim...and true momeen have all rights to stand against unjustice.keep bringing falsehood but truth will win always.

truth and falsehood have been clearly define in quraan.

SBM
Posts: 6508
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Re: ex bohra's

#113

Unread post by SBM » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:36 pm

Anjami
So how about you not attack sahaba and I not bring up items that show you that your deity is just a human?
Br. Anjami
I like to stay out of Shia/Sunni debate, I think we as Ummah have enough problem to worry about Shia.Sunni difference
but at one point you want people to respect Sahaba and then you call Hazarat Ali as diety. Hazart Ali is one of Rashedun Khalifas
and you can not preach respecting others while you go on dis-respecting the one of the closest relative of Prophet (saw)
I think every one should take a deep breath and leave the judgment to Allah.

anajmi
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Re: ex bohra's

#114

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:48 pm

I am not disrespecting Hazrat Ali. By saying that the shia believe in Hazrat Ali as a deity, I am not disrespecting him. Those who believe in him to be deity are the ones that are disrespecting him.

Also, I am not asking anyone to respect the sahaba. I am just asking them not to disrespect them.

anajmi
Posts: 13508
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Re: ex bohra's

#115

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:51 pm

incredible wrote:
anajmi wrote:incredible,

I am sure the lecture will be no different from what I have been reading on this forum. But this goes like this, you keep insulting the sahabas and I keep posting such items about your own deity. So how about you not attack sahaba and I not bring up items that show you that your deity is just a human?

i have already confronted your claim...and true momeen have all rights to stand against unjustice.keep bringing falsehood but truth will win always.

truth and falsehood have been clearly define in quraan.
I have shown you what you believe. The truth has been defined. Truth will come out. The truth is out there. Falsehood will loose. Those with truth will be beheaded but will never be behearted etc etc. I prefer to keep the melodrama out of the equation.

porus
Posts: 3594
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Re: ex bohra's

#116

Unread post by porus » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:21 pm

anajmi wrote:
What I think is immaterial. What is written down and what happened is what matters. I do not believe Hazrat Ali is a God like the shia do. So I do not have a problem believing that he might have had alcohol when it was still allowed.
This man is an utter disgrace, a jahil numero uno!

It is a Bohra belief that Ali was a mere child when he became a Muslim and was privy at a very early age about the asrar of the Quran as he was under personal supervision of Prophet. When did he have the opportunity to sin against the Quran by consuming alcohol? It is well-known that Sunnis say that alcohol was banned in degrees. Would Imams agree with that, knowing the Quran as they did?

One can scour the Web and bring up all sorts of falsehoods against the Prophet posted by 'anajmies' whose main purpose is not so much to insult Prophet but to inflame Muslims, just as anajmi mentions Ali's so-called sin to inflame Bohras and Shia. In this, Admin is primarily responsible because anajmi has been given this forum as his personal platform to attack what is most sacred for Bohras. If it is not invoking pleasure of Allah on Yazid, it is accusing Ali ibn Abi Talib of drunkenness in a state of wuzu. (He said he had no problem believing that!)

I understand the reason why Admin allows this shame to go on. It generates traffic. But how do you think Bohra fanatics will use this thread and others where anajmi pontificates against Bohras and Shia in general? ? They will point out that reformists are against the very fundamentals of their faith. Any one can lift anything out of context and use it to serve their purpose.

We have known anajmi's views for years and he is getting emboldened every day. I tried to dramatize derailment of threads into Shia-Wahhabi quarrels in my 'Dialog with Wahhabis' thread. He strains at the leash throughout the day to pounce on anything which will give him the chance to call the Shia idol-worshippers, mushriks and such. What purpose does this serve on what is putatively a discussion board to discuss reform issues within the context of Bohra faith?

anajmi
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Re: ex bohra's

#117

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:30 pm

When did he have the opportunity to sin against the Quran by consuming alcohol?
The first ayah in the Quran didn't ban alcohol. Alcohol got banned from the Quran in three stages. The first one was just a warning suggesting that intoxicants are bad. The next stage was when it was prohibited to pray while being drunk. This where the Hazrat Ali episode, that drives the shia crazy, comes into the picture. Then the final stage where it was declared that muslims should stay away from intoxicants and gambling as they are the handiwork of satan.

If Hazrat Ali was found drinking after the revelation of the third stage, then he would be sinning against the Quran. But he wasn't sinning against the Quran because that portion was not revealed as yet. Now, the shias believe in Hazrat Ali to be divine, hence they believe that he had knowledge of the Quran even before he was born.

Now, the final act of the shia like porus is to get anajmi banned when they cannot defend their idol worship anymore.
What purpose does this serve on what is putatively a discussion board to discuss reform issues within the context of Bohra faith?
It serves a very important purpose. The sooner the bohras realize the foundation behind their idol worshipping of the Dai the better it will be. If we can remove the divinity surrounding Hazrat Ali, we can remove the divinity surrounding the Dai.

anajmi
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Re: ex bohra's

#118

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:43 pm

Here is something more interesting. The Ismaili Khojas are just as much into "Ya Ali Madad" as any other shia. Their living Imam has been seen having a drink or two. The Ismaili Khojas believe that drinking alcohol is not banned in the Quran at all. So if we were to tell the Ismaili Khojas that Hazrat Ali used to drink too, they would be extremely glad to hear that. They believe their living Imam is a direct descendent of Hazrat Ali. The bohra Imam is hiding, theirs is not.

Admin
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Re: ex bohra's

#119

Unread post by Admin » Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:49 pm

Porus,

This forum operates on one cardinal principle: freedom of thought and expression. Of course, irresponisble people often abuse this freedom. This is really unfortunate. We expect that members - and especially long time members - would have the understanding and maturity to know how far they can go. Once we start censoring posts, there would be no end to it. If things do go out of hand, we do warn members and even ban them if it comes to that. Increasing traffic, as you charge, has never been our motive.

We agree that this is a Bohra forum and discussion must remain confined within the Bohra/Shia parameters, but it is easier said than done. Monitoring every thread and channelling every discussion within certain boundaries would be difficult and time consuming. That being said, we share your frustration about every topic descending into a shia/sunni debate. Members must know that this intractable issue is not going to be resolved here. Everyting that can be said on this topic has been said many times over, nothing much is to be gained by going in circles except for inflaming passions. We appeal to all members on both sides to desist from provoking this discussion all the time. If the sunnis here think that the shias are idol woshippers then so be it. And if the shias think that the first three khalifas are evil then so be it. Let's all show the maturity to agree to disagree and move on.

If the freedom of expression is dear to you then it is up to you help us maintain this freedom. We really do not want this Forum to get to a point where we have to start censoring and banning people. We want to keep the hands-off policy, and it can only be possible with your cooperation.

anajmi
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Re: ex bohra's

#120

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:10 pm

That being said, we share your frustration about every topic descending into a shia/sunni debate.
Every topic does not descend into shia/sunni debate. There are dozens of topics over here which continue the reform objective without getting into the shia/sunni debate.