The Monkey Banana and Water Spray Experiment

[progticide]

The experiment is real (scientific study cited below)
The experiment involved 5 monkeys (10 altogether, including replacements), a cage, a banana, a ladder and, an ice cold water hose.

The Experiment- Part 1
5 monkeys are locked in a cage, a banana was hung from the ceiling and a ladder was placed right underneath it.
As predicted, immediately, one of the monkeys would race towards the ladder, to grab the banana. However, as soon as he would start to climb, the researcher would spray the monkey with ice-cold water.
but here's the kicker- In addition, he would also spray the other four monkeys…

When a second monkey tried to climb the ladder, the researcher would, again, spray the monkey with ice-cold water, As well as the other four watching monkeys;
This was repeated again and again until they learned their lesson:\
Climbing equals scary cold water for EVERYONE so No One Climbs the ladder.

The Experiment- Part 2
Once the 5 monkeys knew the drill, the researcher replaced one of the monkeys with a new inexperienced one. As predicted, the new monkey spots the banana, and goes for the ladder. BUT, the other four monkeys, knowing the drill, jumped on the new monkey and beat him up. The beat up new guy thus Learns- NO going for the ladder and No Banana Period- without even knowing why! and also without ever being sprayed with water!

These actions get repeated with 3 more times, with a new monkey each time and ASTONISHINGLY each new monkey- who had never received the cold-water Spray himself (and didn't even know anything about it), would Join the beating up of the New guy.

When the researcher replaced a third monkey, the same thing happened; likewise for the fourth until, eventually, all the monkeys had been replaced and none of the original ones are left in the cage (that had been sprayed by water).

The Experiment- Part 3
Again, a new monkey was introduced into the cage. It ran toward the ladder only to get beaten up by the others. The monkey turns with a curious face asking "why do you beat me up when I try to get the banana?"
The other four monkeys stopped and looked at each other puzzled (None of them had been sprayed and so they really had no clue why the new guy can't get the banana) but it didnt matter, it was too late, the rules had been set. And So, although they didn't know WHY, they beat up the monkey just because " that's the way we do things around here"…

Sources:
Stephenson, G. R. (1967). Cultural acquisition of a specific learned response among rhesus monkeys. In: Starek, D., Schneider, R., and Kuhn, H. J. (eds.), Progress in Primatology, Stuttgart: Fischer, pp. 279-288.

The above experiment is perfectly analogous to today’s state of affairs of the reformist/progressive movement. The current generation does not know anything about the underlying aspects of the movement. They are blindly following their predecessors/current leaders without questioning their motives/interest/intentions. Ask yourself -
What were the vested interest of those who started this movement?
What were the political interest of those who supported it?
What were the evil intentions of those who jumped into it and became your leaders?
And above all, what was the substance and motive behind the movement to unsuccessfully try to invalidate the office of the Dai al Mutlaq?

The present generation involved in this so-called reform movement is just like the 4 monkeys in Experiment 3 above.

They have no clue of the malicious motives of those individuals & families who suddenly joined the movement from nowhere after being excommunicated from the community in late 1800s and 1900s.

The present generation has no clue that the issue of the 46th Dai’s nass was never an issue and it was a false agenda created by the 4 corrupt Ustads of Jamea and those who were already removed from the community decades ago in order to add fuel to the agitated emotions of certain groups and project the whole incident as a revolt and revolution. Did you ever question yourself as to how those who were on the opposite extremes of Shariat (some professing complete binding to shariat and some having completely abrogated Shariat for modern lifestyle) come together? Ofcourse, such a marriage of convenience was not for religious matters, than what was the evil motive? Was it a classic case of enemy of my enemy is my friend?

The present generation has no clue about the reality behind the evil intentions of those so-called leaders who pleaded victim of the high-handedness of kothar and their real motive behind the campaign to illegitamise the holy office of the 52nd Dai al Mutlaq.

How did the faith of your generation which your forefathers had nurtured and strengthened for centuries become so fragile that a stone of false allegation and evil argument from people who had tainted characters shattered it to pieces.

Did you ever bother to ask yourself this question?

[Bigger]

Dear brother,

I came to this forum bcoz i was curious to know those reasons which led this(reformist) group to go astray and ridicule the office of syedna and hudood kiram. And then i saw many posts, and seen many from other(DB) side to argue and try to prove the authencity of Dawat hadiya and Dua'at. but all in vain. We see in history that religious arguments/battles have no end.

Here we must understand that if Allah subahanhu wa ta'ala keeps someone deprived thn none can help him. You are trying to show truth, i appreciate, but its above our humble capacity to turn a Munafeek into Mumin, A munafeek who after knowing all, turns from Duat Mutlaqeen is more harmful than snake and scorpion, Syedi Sadikali saheb writes, "Vichu ne saap si che bhunda bashar woh beshak, haq na dhani si je koy munkar thai fira che."

Zaman na saheb na fe'aal ane amal ma shak lavi ne ehna hukum ne na manvu ane ehne jhuthavu, pachi banavati vato kari ne logo ma fasad peda karvu, fasekeen nu amal che, ane fasekeen ne khuda pasand nathi karta. Hamne marefat hasil che, to khuda ta'ala nu shukr karvu joiye ane apna abaa-ajdaad ye emaan par rahya, dai na farmaan ne mathe chadaya, tesi aaje apne emaan par che, khuda ye sagla ne jaza e khair aapjo.

[Humsafar]

Progticide, welcome to the forum. Great post. Except that you are so self-absorbed in your righteousness that you forgot to apply the conclusions of your experiments on your own ilk. When it comes to brainwashing, we all are creatures of habit and conformity to a certain extent. The issue is only of degree. And the abdes by all evidence are brainwashed and indoctrinated to the highest degree. They behave like puppets. Just a tug at the string and they are ready to empty their minds and their pockets. Just look at the Sayedna's birthday tamasha. They are celebrating 100th anniversary when he is only 99. Nobody has asked why this should be so. They are just going crazy, running around like headless chickens because "that's the way [abdes] do things around here".

[truebohra]

Dear Brothers,
All of the reformist have an ego. They have thought themselves to be most rationale , educated modern & find the haq as religoius dogma. It a matter of time their future generation, now moved away from Haq and Dai & one day not even remain a muslamin. They are so confused that even the Shariat of Islam for them is a religous dogma.
Thier ears & heart are sealed by the Allah...

[Bigger]

@humsafar,

No one here (mumbai or other places) is doing anything unwillingly, they are not forced to celebrate and do this and that, they using there own creative ways to please Allah by helding khatmul Quran majlis, Darees, other religious gatherings and thanking allah for giving our Dai a long and healthy life, there are many sports related programms, this time they consider environment as burhani foundation is going to plant severl trees across india and other countries, they distributed bird feeders to save sparrows and various programms and arrangements are on its way. Many hundreds of thousands of people (ibadullah ane mumineen) are associated with it and doing good business in such events, Lakho ne rozi male che aa expenditure si, those who have heart to spend are spending and those who are doing arrangements are gaining both monetary and social benefits.

Now why others should worry about all this celebrations, and till when they keep doing this, this is life now.

And do u think its a valid/ethical question to ask someone celebrating a occassion which is historical and most awaited, the 100 birthday of any person in this world is extra extra special, and when it comes to a leader of 1.7 million then it has to be loud and unbelievable ..... Try to be happy to see others happy.

[Humsafar]

No one here (mumbai or other places) is doing anything unwillingly, they are not forced to celebrate and do this and that,

That is exactly the point of the experiments cited by progticide. The monkeys were not "forced" to beat up the other monkey. This is what conditioning is all about. I pointed out the anniversary celebration only to illustrate my point. Personally, I'm happy for the Dai for having achieved this milestone and only wish him well and still longer life.

[accountability]

We are Happy that our Dai has a long life. May he live long. But I fail to understand the logic of celebrating 99 years as 100. Is this intentional or just a mistake. But if it is a mistake then there will be big question mark on the efficiency of Bohra administration, which is run by Shahzadas. They are describing it as milad e meavi, which means 100th birthday, which is not. I still dont understand why didn't we wait one year, when syedna saheb will be actually 100 years, we could genuinely call it milad meavi.

[Conscíous]

Br progticide,
Welcome to the forum.. Enjoyed reading your post.. May Allah (swt) for fill Syedna Saheb's wishes for a veeeeeeeeeeery long life..

Had a conversation last night with a family member about the age of Syedna Saheb..

Me: Do you "really" know, how old Syedna Saheb is??
Abde: He is going to be 100 & I don't want to hear your none sense
Me: I'm not asking this to start a fight/argument,,, I just wanted to know if YOU knew. Because i read in the forum, that we are celebrating, him entering his 100th birthday..
Abde: You think everyone is wrong all around the world & stupid to celebrating his 99th birthday as it was 100th?? DON'T TALK TO ME!!

[seeker110]

There is no shortage of people who would become slaves.I pity the man for staying on his knees.May Allah give everyone freedom.Specially freedom of bogus religion.

[Bigger]

so u guys mean to say its syedna's 99th birth day, and 99th bday which we celebrated last year was his 98th bday, and so on, ohh that mean we are from past hundred years counting his age wrong.

What a zero IQ comment.

Bravo ya yabna hamaar.

[Humsafar]

so u guys mean to say its syedna's 99th birth day, and 99th bday which we celebrated last year was his 98th bday, and so on, ohh that mean we are from past hundred years counting his age wrong.

This you should ask the people who celebrate his birthdays.To find out why he is 99 and not 100, read this: Read this thread: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=5815

[Fatwa Banker]

they distributed bird feeders to save sparrows

Bigger, does this mean he will stop killing animals on his Safari trips to Africa ?

No one here (mumbai or other places) is doing anything unwillingly, they are not forced to celebrate and do this and that

As previously announced, each sabeel paying family is asked to contribute $1000 towards our beloved Moula's 100th Milad Celebrations (which began 1st Muharram 1432H) .
In the next few days members of the Finance Subcommittee of 100th Milad Planning Committee will be contacting you to collect your contribution .

Hmmm...care to explain that contradiction ?

[accountability]

when would you celebrate your son's first birthday,the day he is born or when he is one year old. You got it genius.

[Al Zulfiqar]

so progticide thinks that by posting a clever experiment, he has somehow established his pseudo-intellectual credentials and ipso facto proved that reformists are wrong.

now for the bogus high brow scientist that he claims to be, let us examine the totally asinine logic he uses.

1. the conclusions from the experiment apply to monkeys and repetitive behaviour, quite similar to the work done by pavlov, nothing groundbreaking or unique there.
2. the repetitive behaviour and the lack of analytical or cognitive behaviour applies, if examined dispassionately from all different angles, to the brainless abde morons, who without any rational thought or analysis indulge in robotic maatam, sajdas to their dai and singing kufr filled madehs such as 'sajda tujhe wajib hai' and ghanu jeevo' etc. who hold their folded hands high and yell 'mola mola, aqa mola', hoping he will look in their general direction and blow powerful winds full of zeus-like benedictions out of his weak emphysema affected lungs and cure them of cancer, impotency, poverty etc (for which he is responsible in the first place) while they regard him as god on earth.
3. by attempting to absolve his fellow abdes from any associated guilt which would ensue from a closer analysis of this 'monkey business', pesticide immediately hopes to turn the conclusions (which any student of anthroplogy would easily derive) onto the reformists, little realising that reformists talk from a factual viewpoint with evidences and proofs which form the basis of all scientific endeavour, whereas all the divinity, miracles and claims made by syedna and his family are false, vague and unfounded with no basis either from islam or even our own scriptures, our history, past practices or even ethics and common morality.
4. what pesticide has only proven is his deceit and puerile mocking of science, as the tables are turned on him.

the continous brainwashing, false propaganda and malicious manipulation of the markaz's, masjids and media to spread hatred and misinformation about the reformists' agenda and make personal attacks against them with impunity by completely flouting islam, the laws of the land and human decency, is amply proved on this forum itself.

whereas the reformists of old had a different set of issues to deal with, mainly secular and civil, the newer generation is having to deal with total perversion of our religion and islam by the kothar. the abdes and their leaders the crooked zaadas, now embolden to declare the syedna as higher than imam, the prophet and allah himself, with ludicrous and kufr filled claims of his being haqiqi kaaba, natiqe quran and god on earth etc etc.

a ragged bunch of morons, regimentally dressed in identical clothes, with long junglee beards, jumping up and down and tearing down upon food with their fangs bared, stampeding over each other, yelling and making strange hypocritical noises of moaning and crying crocodile tears, what does this resemble...?? you guessed right. a huge pack of wild monkeys!!!!

[Fatwa Banker]

Progticide,

You analoagy is based on a false premise making it totally irrelevant to the point you are trying to make. All Bohras experience the water spray when they come into the fold ("the cage"), therefore, those who choose to leave are not avoiding the water by habit or heresay, but because they got soaked. The real question is why do the rest keep wanting to get wet ?

Progressives are trying to stop the rest from being hosed (no pun intended).

[Gulf]

so u guys mean to say its syedna's 99th birth day, and 99th bday which we celebrated last year was his 98th bday, and so on, ohh that mean we are from past hundred years counting his age wrong.

What a zero IQ comment.

Bravo ya yabna hamaar.

great reply... In addition, i have mentioned on svrl occsn taht progs are nothing but dumbass... Yabne hamaar..... Ha ha ha

[progticide]

Just as I had suspected...the results are for everyone on this forum to see for themselves:
1. Some progs reciprocated/responded with abuse
2. Some progs responded with irrational argument
3. Some progs totally digressed from the topic and posted the same old rubbish that they post on other topic.....copy & paste function similarly to the conditioned behaviour of the monkeys in Experiment 3. So my conclusion is vindicated.

Not a single post from the reformist lobby was rationally argumentative or intellectually substantial. How could it be? Simple, because they have no clue why they are doing what they are doing? again, my conclusion is vindicated.

Every attempt was made to digress from the subject and return to the one point agenda of mocking the current establishment and raising irrelevant question on Syedna's age and celebrations and family conversations without any regard to the fact that not long ago their own forefathers had sworn allegiance to the former Dai al Mutlaq and then the current Dai al Mutlaq.

1. None from the reformist lobby attempted to answer or even challenge the circumstantial facts that I have mentioned after the experiment. Some will surely try and respond to it now.
2. It is a passive affirmation from them that the background cited by me in this topic about the reformist movement is not only honest but true. Some will try to counter this argument now.
3. The abuse on this forum is an active affirmation from the reformist that their minds have been conditioned for antagonist & rebellious behaviour and although they know about their vices their ego and arrogance does not allow them to do otherwise i.e. return to the rightful path of Haq & Imaan.

Can anyone on this forum refute my argument that "the reformist movement was indeed a platform for opportunist individuals who had personal motives and vested interests and only thing common among them was the hatred for Syedna's family. However, since this approach would not have generated enough momentum and these individuals (the 4 corrupt ustads of Jamea including "Ahmak" and other excommunicated individuals and families of late 1800s and 1900s) feared that people would return to the mainstream after a shortwhile and their movement would fail earlier than expected decided to altogether attempt to delegitamise the office of the Dai al Mutlaq and create doubts in the minds of their supporters about the holy office which until then these 4 corrupt ustads had themself served. There was nothing in common between these 4 corrupt ustads and other individuals (as some were self-professed alims & practising muslims and others were so-called modern age thinkers and socialites with no regard for shariat) who joined this movement except for their hatred for Syedna because the current establishment was an obstacle for them to achieve their evil political and financial objectives. Thus, they managed to condition the few disenchanted and angry individuals and families with false agenda and aspirations to serve their own personal objectives and the common people failed to read the evil designs behind these smear campaigns. Until today, they continue to be fed the same false agenda and are deprived of the bliss that their former brethren in faith are enjoying. And yet, they don't even want to question their stand and give a second thought to their current state of affairs."

[ozmujaheed]

progticide..interesting monkey business..

simple objective of resistance movement (not Progs)...replace Dial Mutlaq with a democratic system where the dia is selected on merit and not inheritance and make him accountable..get rid of the power wielded by zadas..open up an analysis of the history of Fatimides and findout of we have been led astray from Islam..since landing in India some strage ideologies have been invented based on Brahmin residue

[Humsafar]

progticide, consider yourself one of the sprayed monkey who is conditioned to accuse reformists of all kinds of baseless motives.

ozmujaheed writes:

simple objective of resistance movement (not Progs)...replace Dial Mutlaq with a democratic system where the dia is selected on merit...

I'm glad you mentioned "not Progs". I'm not sure what other resistance movement is there. The objective of the reformists is not to replace the dai or democratically elect a new one. Reformists have stayed clear of the nomination and nass of dais. Yes, we aspire to a system of accountability and transparency and we hope the future dais will understand and value these things. But we're NOT in the business of electing or nominating dais. When we talk of democracy it is only at the level of jamat administration where the officials should be democratically elected - as it is done in all reformist jamats - and who are accountable to the members and NOT to the illegitimate "Royalty".

[ozmujaheed]

Hums afar , you will be surprised there are many unhappy Bohras who are unhappy with Abdes and kothar , at the same time very aware of what other Muslim societies can offer and aspire their own society to be reformed.

The PDB alternative is a slight modification to the vices in the community and not worth as we will replace one dictator with another without fundamental reform. yes you have done your best to survive a generation of persecution but sorry your form of PDB is not attractive or relevant to the new generation.

Look at the contributors mostly baby boomers and retirees hung up in the good old day...there is nothing to offer the youth who are secular and well informed by Sheikh Google

Have you noticed most youth are happy to associate with the Abdes society and in their hearts hope one day this will change ...they will superficially say amen loudly for molas umar darass, enjoy dum biryani, do Purjosha mat am and in
The thal be able to discuss quite intellectually the fanaticism in Pakistan and India, aware of geo politics. And switch channels easily between Abdes and intellectual ..this is the key to the future if we can influence them than we will be able to diminish the zadas grip

[progticide]

In the interest of those you want to debate intellectually I am posting this argument again. I am sure some idiots would again try to sweep this argument under the carpet with their nonsensible crap, but i'll nevertheles give it a try.

Can anyone on this forum refute my argument that "the reformist movement was indeed a platform for opportunist individuals who had personal motives and vested interests and only thing common among them was the hatred for Syedna's family. However, since this approach would not have generated enough momentum and these individuals (the 4 corrupt ustads of Jamea including "Ahmak" and other excommunicated individuals and families of late 1800s and 1900s) feared that people would return to the mainstream after a shortwhile and their movement would fail earlier than expected decided to altogether attempt to delegitamise the office of the Dai al Mutlaq and create doubts in the minds of their supporters about the holy office which until then these 4 corrupt ustads had themself served. There was nothing in common between these 4 corrupt ustads and other individuals (as some were self-professed alims & practising muslims and others were so-called modern age thinkers and socialites with no regard for shariat) who joined this movement except for their hatred for Syedna because the current establishment was an obstacle for them to achieve their evil political and financial objectives. Thus, they managed to condition the few disenchanted and angry individuals and families with false agenda and aspirations to serve their own personal objectives and the common people failed to read the evil designs behind these smear campaigns. Until today, they continue to be fed the same false agenda and are deprived of the bliss that their former brethren in faith are enjoying. And yet, they don't even want to question their stand and give a second thought to their current state of affairs."

[ozmujaheed]

Progticide I do not know the 4 us tad and don't care, I want to get rid of the current kothar using PDB or not..coalition of willing once we get rid of the kothar we will decide if PDB has legitimacy to lead..so like a broken record you can go on trying to tease the opponents of kothar

Yes it is personal because we are seeking personal freedom to choose our lifestyle without a bearded corrupt sheikh interfering

Simple rule it is just a community our religion is Islam and we can get guidance the same as other Muslims get it...sounds radical yes it is

[accountability]

Progticide. Your first post and the last post do not connect to present day progressive minded bohras. You are drawing on 60's, 70's reformist. I know nothing about them. Regarding 4 ustads who had been ousted, I have said the same things five years ago in a similar discussion as you mentioned in your post.
You are right about them, that they had served, benefitted from the same system till they found some personal difference with present setup and started crying foul. But it is not my concern, nor do I regard them any worthy for any reformist cause.

I believe that Bawa saheb is our dai, he is our spritual leader, his religious edicts are for us to follow. Having said that, I do have problems are with administration, which is largely run by his sons.
My problem is inhumane and not dignified behaviour meted out by his appointees as amils.
My problem is mixing religious tenets with adminstrative and financial obligations.
My problem is when some one dies, his burial and final rituals are subject to clearence of his dues, sabil and wajebat and many other. which is not binding accroding to misaq.
My problem is, when his teenaged grand son is sitting and a 70 years old man is bowing hands folded before him. I find it below human dignity.
My problem is when Malik bhai saheb had a brush with IRS, and he was not taken to task.
I just want to reform the behaviour of present administration, i want them not to mix religion and money. What ever is obligated in misaq, they should stick to it. In misaq there is no mention of wajebat or sabil to be paid. If I can not afford I should not be made to pay.

Most people here have the same ideas about reform as I mentioned above. Most do not want to reform rerligion, they just want to be treated failrly.
The problem with you is the same that I want reformed, look at your language you call others idiots. What is worng in reforms that i suggested, and if there isn't, then let it be reformed.
Udaipur saga is the same, no one challenged Dai, It was Quaid JOhar Bhaisaheb, who wnated to favour one candidate and people did not want it, so it all satarted with electoral difference, got mingled with religion.
And I am not an old man, who has nothing to do, I have to find timeto contribute to this forum, but it is important that I do contribute, I can not see people and myself de humanified and degraded in the name of religion.

[aqs]

Br. Accty

seconded

[accountability]

Aqs: Pleasure is all mine. thankyou.

[Tariq]

Dear Progticide,

You have done yourself no justice by posting the results of a scientific experiment which you claim to mimic the actions of the progressive Dawoodi Bohras of today. In fact, I thought I was reading a pro-progressive post! If you want to present findings and dispute them on an intellectual level you must be ready to defend why you are not the subject of your own wit. In short, I find it rather amusing that you have shot your own foot (i.e. you have amply described the behaviour of the current orthodox). I am confident that if you spend enough time reading posts on this forum you will very quickly understand that our aims are clear and more importantly, in accordance to the laws of this great religion.

Wasalam.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Progticide-I do'nt know what you are talking about those Ustads in 1800 or 1900"s- First of all you do not know their names and secondly you do not know the exact historical events or dates-bring it on and we will argue it out with you otherwise you are throwing the bunch of lies that even doenot support your Banana-monkey experiment!@!!

[Maqbool]

I completely agree what Accountability has written. Most of the bohras all over the world are not connected to progressive jamat. In my town there are many bohras who believe that the interference on the daily life should be stopped. the Amil should look only religious side and the affairs of jamat including accounts should be maintained by an elected body. No one has any problem to send the elected body names to Sayedna for his blessings and approval without any influence by any body.

Progticide has mentioned about the 4 ustad (According to him corrupt) but he has conveniently forgotten to consider about zahir batin episode, which also shows a character of opposition on the other side. this clearly shows his mind set.

[ANA BOHRI]

Br. Accountability

I would have not put it better than the way you have described my feelings about our community.
and in fact there are many orthodox bohris including my own family members who have the same feelings.

[stranger]

Progticide. Your first post and the last post do not connect to present day progressive minded bohras. You are drawing on 60's, 70's reformist. I know nothing about them. Regarding 4 ustads who had been ousted, I have said the same things five years ago in a similar discussion as you mentioned in your post.
You are right about them, that they had served, benefitted from the same system till they found some personal difference with present setup and started crying foul. But it is not my concern, nor do I regard them any worthy for any reformist cause.

I believe that Bawa saheb is our dai, he is our spritual leader, his religious edicts are for us to follow. Having said that, I do have problems are with administration, which is largely run by his sons.
My problem is inhumane and not dignified behaviour meted out by his appointees as amils.
My problem is mixing religious tenets with adminstrative and financial obligations.
My problem is when some one dies, his burial and final rituals are subject to clearence of his dues, sabil and wajebat and many other. which is not binding accroding to misaq.
My problem is, when his teenaged grand son is sitting and a 70 years old man is bowing hands folded before him. I find it below human dignity.
My problem is when Malik bhai saheb had a brush with IRS, and he was not taken to task.
I just want to reform the behaviour of present administration, i want them not to mix religion and money. What ever is obligated in misaq, they should stick to it. In misaq there is no mention of wajebat or sabil to be paid. If I can not afford I should not be made to pay.

Most people here have the same ideas about reform as I mentioned above. Most do not want to reform rerligion, they just want to be treated failrly.
The problem with you is the same that I want reformed, look at your language you call others idiots. What is worng in reforms that i suggested, and if there isn't, then let it be reformed.
Udaipur saga is the same, no one challenged Dai, It was Quaid JOhar Bhaisaheb, who wnated to favour one candidate and people did not want it, so it all satarted with electoral difference, got mingled with religion.
And I am not an old man, who has nothing to do, I have to find timeto contribute to this forum, but it is important that I do contribute, I can not see people and myself de humanified and degraded in the name of religion.

Br. accountability,
Agreed with you.