Kitaab ul Himma on Sajada

[accountability]

Qazi Noman is not a prophet or imam or any sanctified personality. He was a judge in Fatimid era, How good a judge was he, it is unknown. First of all the passage you posted I had it translated by Sh Saeed, he is the principal of al azhar academy of canada, http://www.alazharacademy.com/ He is from Egypt, he has a doctorate in Islamic history from Al Azhar. Website has contact address, if you want you can call him.
In the passage it does not say to do sajda, Porus is very right in his translation, it only says when before imam, kiss the earth between person and imam. Your argument about sajda nullifies itself in light of your own posted passage from Qadi Noman’s book.
Any thing that is in contrast or against the quranic teaching will not stand, may it be Qadi Noman or any one else. When quran commands not to prostate before anyone except Allah, Qadi Noman can not allow it.
If you read imam muizz’s reign, in which he completed Daim ul islam, he was shown as an employee of Fatimid empire.
I do not understand why do you have to elevate Dai to the level of God or prophet or imam. Dai is appointed to summon people ( not only his followers) to ismaili faith, that is the absolute duty of the dai, and lead his followers according to ismaili faith in absence of imam. He is not required to perform miracles, nor is he afforded any special privilege due to his appointment as dai.
No where in daim ul islam it is suggested that dai will collect zakat, ushur or any thing from his follower, let alone dais, imams of Fatimid dynasty did not collect zakat from their subjects. Though they did collect taxes from Christians, jews, berbers and others, but they did not name it wajebat or zakat.

[progpigs]

@accountability

Dint Imam ask mikdad to offer something valuable from his maal (belonging)??? do you know abt this riwayat??

[porus]

You claimed Sajada not for anybody except Allah,,,, Qadi Noman contradicts your point ,as he says THE SAJADA TO IMAM IS TAQBILUL ARD ,
TAZIMAN TAKRIBAN ILALALLAH.

Murtaza,

You are really getting extremely tiresome. You have not read the passage from Himma that you have posted. If you have, I must conclude that you have no knowledge of Arabic.

Nowhere in the whole passage does Qadi Noman say what you are attributing to him. In fact, he says quite the opposite.

I understand your problem. You are intellectually dishonest and not true to yourself. You want to perform sajda to Dai and members of his family despite Allah's and his Rasul's injunctions against it.

In another post, you claim that Dai is Allah's maqaam. Only a mushrik would claim that. Like all of us, Dai is simply noxious bio-degradable matter covered with bio-degradable skin.

Allah's maqaam is beyond what can be experienced in this world. He is beyond description. What did you learn of Bohra Haqaaiq in your sabaks? Didn't you learn that Allah is One and that creation has been delegated to Aql Awwal? Although not Quranic, the Bohra metaphysics too considers Allah beyond anything you can imagine, think or say about Him.

Finally, let me quote a sentence from the Himma paasage you posted.

و للسجود حقيقة هي غير تقبيل الارض عند كل من نظرهم شيء من العلم من مؤالف أو مخاقلف

"As for sujood, in truth it is not 'taqbeel al-ard' (kissing the ground) in accordance with all the established and non-established sciences."

[murtaza2152]

@Porus,
Qazi Noman says to do Taqbilul Ard to Imam for Taziman and Takriban ilalAllah....
Do you agree that??
Y/N

He wrote this topic in , Zikro Aadabe Fissalam Alal Aaimmat,
So he is teaching us Manners to do Salaam.

[Mubarak]

I understand your problem. You are intellectually dishonest and not true to yourself.

Porus bhai,

I have experienced similar with Aqs.

In reference to chest beating (which Burhanuddin sahab/Shabab group incorrectly refers as "Matam"). I presented Sayyedina va Aaka va Molana Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r) book reference where he categorically commands all his amils and mumineens not to do chest beating by hands or tools in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.).

But Aqs responded with intellectually dishonesty on above.

So, it seems some of the abde-Burhanuddin sahab here (on this forum) are intellectually dishonest.

[porus]

@Porus,
Qazi Noman says to do Taqbilul Ard to Imam for Taziman and Takriban ilalAllah....
Do you agree that??
Y/N

See what I said about you being tiresome? I already provided a translation about this earlier in the thread.

Even if Qazi Noman says that kissing the ground would honor the Imam, I would not do it for it might be misinterpreted as sujood to Imam.

Now that you know about Allah and His Rasool's command, would you continue doing sajda to Dai and members of his family? Or would you kiss the ground in between you and the Dai when you meet him? No sajda and kissing his feet either!!

[porus]

I understand your problem. You are intellectually dishonest and not true to yourself.

Porus bhai,

I have experienced similar with Aqs.

In reference to chest beating (which Burhanuddin sahab/Shabab group incorrectly refers as "Matam"). I presented Sayyedina va Aaka va Molana Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r) book reference where he categorically commands all his amils and mumineens not to do chest beating by hands or tools in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.).

But Aqs responded with intellectually dishonesty on above.

So, it seems some of the abde-Burhanuddin sahab here (on this forum) are intellectually dishonest.

Mubarak bhai,

Welcome back to the board. You have been away for some time. Please contribute. Your posts are always interesting.

I agree that some abdes are very dishonest intellectually. I fear that they do not see it like that because of all the brainwashing they have been subjected to.

[murtaza2152]

@Porus,
Qazi Noman says to do Taqbilul Ard to Imam for Taziman and Takriban ilalAllah....
Do you agree that??
Y/N

See what I said about you being tiresome? I already provided a translation about this earlier in the thread.

Even if Qazi Noman says that kissing the ground would honor the Imam, I would not do it for it might be misinterpreted as sujood to Imam.

Oh....So Qazi Noman didnt think that his act of Taqbilul Ard would be misinterpreted as sajada,,
So he must not write this line in his book,, the book which was written by raza mubarak of Imam Moiz as.....


Now that you know about Allah and His Rasool's command, would you continue doing sajda to Dai and members of his family? Or would you kiss the ground in between you and the Dai when you meet him? No sajda and kissing his feet either!!

We do Taqbilul Ard to our Dai Taziman Takriban ilalAllah,,
we do not do Sajada as the Sajada we do to Allah......

[porus]

We do Taqbilul Ard to our Dai Taziman Takriban ilalAllah,,
we do not do Sajada as the Sajada we do to Allah......

Really!

The difference between sujood and kissing the ground:

In sujood you press your forehead and nose to ground. In taqbeel, you kiss the ground with your lips.

Now tell us, do you kiss the ground or do you kiss Dai's feet?

[murtaza2152]

In another post, you claim that Dai is Allah's maqaam. Only a mushrik would claim that. Like all of us, Dai is simply noxious bio-degradable matter covered with bio-degradable skin.

Allah's maqaam is beyond what can be experienced in this world. He is beyond description. What did you learn of Bohra Haqaaiq in your sabaks? Didn't you learn that Allah is One and that creation has been delegated to Aql Awwal? Although not Quranic, the Bohra metaphysics too considers Allah beyond anything you can imagine, think or say about Him.

I testify La Ilaha Illa Hu.
I didnt say Dai or Imam is Mubde Subhanahu Al Haq....
As i said Imam is in maqam of Allah on Earth,,
In Imam's satar Dai is seated in his office.....

[murtaza2152]

We do Taqbilul Ard to our Dai Taziman Takriban ilalAllah,,
we do not do Sajada as the Sajada we do to Allah......

Really!

The difference between sujood and kissing the ground:

In sujood you press your forehead and nose to ground. In taqbeel, you kiss the ground with your lips.

Now tell us, do you kiss the ground or do you kiss Dai's feet?

I have told you this topic is about Sajada to Imam and Dai, dont drag Qadambosi inside it.....
Anyways, Qadabosi and Sajada are two different things.....
Can you present some Ayat or Hadees ,where it tells Kissing of Imams ,Nabi's feet is Haram and Shirk.

For me when i go in Hazarat Nooraniyah Qudsaniyah AshrakAllaho Anvaraha,I do Taqbilul Ard Taziman Takriban ilalAllah...

[Doctor]

Porus bhai,

I have experienced similar with Aqs.

In reference to chest beating (which Burhanuddin sahab/Shabab group incorrectly refers as "Matam"). I presented Sayyedina va Aaka va Molana Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r) book reference where he categorically commands all his amils and mumineens not to do chest beating by hands or tools in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.).

But Aqs responded with intellectually dishonesty on above.

So, it seems some of the abde-Burhanuddin sahab here (on this forum) are intellectually dishonest.

Mubarak bhai,

Welcome back to the board. You have been away for some time. Please contribute. Your posts are always interesting.

I agree that some abdes are very dishonest intellectually. I fear that they do not see it like that because of all the brainwashing they have been subjected to.

Thanks Porus bhai.

I was away because I lost a very good friend due to my pro-Fatimi Dawat and anti-Kothar writing. We together did management course, his parents and my parents also came close to each other because of our friendship. One day, in his Google search he came across this website and my name and enquired if I was the same person? I honestly affirmed. Unfortunately, he forgot all the good time we shared together and stopped speaking with me! I felt very upset. So, now I randomly write with name "Doctor"

Above made me realized great empathy for all those who suffered from tyranny of wrong and selfish abuse of 'barat' imposed by Kothar. I have lost a friend and I felt so bad. How about those mothers/fathers/sons/daughters who were separated by Kothar!

Salute to all those who have courage and wisdom to lock horns with might of tyrant Kothar.

"Hum parvarish a kagaz kalam karte rahenge,
Guzregi jo dil per woh rakam karte rahenge"

[murtaza2152]

Qazi Noman is not a prophet or imam or any sanctified personality. He was a judge in Fatimid era, How good a judge was he, it is unknown. First of all the passage you posted I had it translated by Sh Saeed, he is the principal of al azhar academy of canada, http://www.alazharacademy.com/ He is from Egypt, he has a doctorate in Islamic history from Al Azhar. Website has contact address, if you want you can call him.
In the passage it does not say to do sajda, Porus is very right in his translation, it only says when before imam, kiss the earth between person and imam. Your argument about sajda nullifies itself in light of your own posted passage from Qadi Noman’s book.
Any thing that is in contrast or against the quranic teaching will not stand, may it be Qadi Noman or any one else. When quran commands not to prostate before anyone except Allah, Qadi Noman can not allow it.
If you read imam muizz’s reign, in which he completed Daim ul islam, he was shown as an employee of Fatimid empire.
I do not understand why do you have to elevate Dai to the level of God or prophet or imam. Dai is appointed to summon people ( not only his followers) to ismaili faith, that is the absolute duty of the dai, and lead his followers according to ismaili faith in absence of imam. He is not required to perform miracles, nor is he afforded any special privilege due to his appointment as dai.
No where in daim ul islam it is suggested that dai will collect zakat, ushur or any thing from his follower, let alone dais, imams of Fatimid dynasty did not collect zakat from their subjects. Though they did collect taxes from Christians, jews, berbers and others, but they did not name it wajebat or zakat.

@ Account
Do you know Imam Moiz as said About Syedna Qazi Noman,,
"Agar koi shaksh Qazi Noman na Ikhlaas no Dasma no Dasmo 1% hisso bhi lavse to me ahna vaste Jannatno zamin chu"
and you are saying ," He was a judge in Fatimid era, How good a judge was he, it is unknown."

According to you Dail Mutlaq should be a simple man,with no spiritual qualities,he should not be given any special privilege....Right?
Do you even know ,whats the meaning of Dail Mutlaq? What is the maqam of Dail Mutlaq in Imams satr?

[canadian]

"Agar koi shaksh Qazi Noman na Ikhlaas no Dasma no Dasmo 1% hisso bhi lavse to me ahna vaste Jannatno zamin chu"

This sentence proves that Qazi Noman was a slave of the Imam, but does not indicate how good or bad a judge he was.

[murtaza2152]

In another post, you claim that Dai is Allah's maqaam. Only a mushrik would claim that. Like all of us, Dai is simply noxious bio-degradable matter covered with bio-degradable skin.

Allah's maqaam is beyond what can be experienced in this world. He is beyond description. What did you learn of Bohra Haqaaiq in your sabaks? Didn't you learn that Allah is One and that creation has been delegated to Aql Awwal? Although not Quranic, the Bohra metaphysics too considers Allah beyond anything you can imagine, think or say about Him.

I testify La Ilaha Illa Hu.
I didnt say Dai or Imam is Mubde Subhanahu Al Haq....
As i said Imam is in Maqam of Allah on Earth,,(i have my references)
In Imam's satar Dai is seated in his office So.........

[profastian]

I don't believe there is much use arguing with the lame brained porus. Ilm and logic just sieves through him(hence the appropriate nick porus)

[progpigs]

bro murtaza & profastian

No use of dicussing HIGH GRADE ilm wid dese pigs... coz as much gud u feed to pigs they will still run for the GARBAGE!!

soo end ur discussion... let dem stink arnd!!

[Hussain_KSA]

HIGH GRADE ILM

[murtaza2152]

Bro Husain,
It is clear from the book that Taqbilul Ard is done to Imam and Dai,
but bro Porus is restlessly arguing in this point,
he is saying also Taqbilul Ard is wrong and it resembles Sajada, As he (Porus) is more knoledgeble than Syedna Qazi Noman,,,....!!!

[porus]

Bro Husain,
It is clear from the book that Taqbilul Ard is done to Imam and Dai,

Murtaza,

What is clear is that you are misreading the passage you posted.

Dai is not even mentioned in the passage. Elevating the Dai to Imamhood is a later innovation. Very likely, Qadi Noman did not foresee the time when Fatimid Imamat would perish or that Dai al-Mutlaq would, de facto, take over Imam's place in the 20th century. (Fatimid Imamat perished and splintered into rival Imamats, with some Imams going into hiding.)

Taqbil al-ard is not done to Imam. It is done to the Ground. Qazi Noman say that that is the way to show respect to Imam. Qazi Noman is at pains to say that this is not sujood. But the actions are so close that taqbil al-ard could be seen or mistaken as sujood.

Let me ask you again. When you go in the presence of Dai, do you kiss the ground in front of him? And what do you actually do? Give us all the detail from approaching him to leaving his presence.

You may also wish to justify all those madehs calling for sajda to dai. Do you think that the authors meant taqbil al ard? If so, you would need to justify your assertion.

[Biradar]

What is clear is that you are misreading the passage you posted.

Dai is not even mentioned in the passage. Elevating the Dai to Imamhood is a later innovation. Very likely, Qadi Noman did not foresee the time when Fatimid Imamat would perish or that Dai al-Mutlaq would, de facto, take over Imam's place in the 20th century. (Fatimid Imamat perished and splintered into rival Imamats, with some Imams going into hiding.)

Porus: I think you are wasting your time arguing. First, to Bohras it does not really matter what Qadi Noman said or did not say. All that matters is what the present da'i says. If he approves sajda to him, well, then Bohras must obey and do it. Justification from books, Quran or the Prophet's deeds is not needed.

Bohras today worship the da'i. Sajda is only one and very minor aspect of it. One only needs to see the amazing things done on his 99th birthday: he was placed on a stage while people streamed by, hands folded, shouting "mola, mola", tears streaming from their eyes. There are now museums dedicated to him, with his pictures everywhere, which he himself inaugurates and admires. Be assured that there will hundreds and thousands of visitors, each standing with folded hands crying in front of his photos and imploring him to bless them.

This sight is not unlike the yearly Ganpati festival in India, where the clay idol is places on the stage, music and lights around it, and people stream by to worship. Except, our Ganpati wears white clothes and there is, thankfully, only one of him.

This is the worst type of sycophancy and absolutely undeniably worship. Some bohras of the old school may be running around reading old books to justify all this, but the newer ones do not really care. Every kid is now taught to fold hands and stand reverentially in front of mola, or, in his absence, in front of the local Amil. The sight is despicable and disgusting.

That Qadi Noman was writing about the Imam, and even for him was being very careful not to say it was sajda is totally irrelevant. You may try your best, but nothing will change the fanatic Bohra's mind. You might as well beat your head against a brick wall.

[Aarif]

Like all of us, Dai is simply noxious bio-degradable matter covered with bio-degradable skin.

Well said Br. Porus.. That's a masterpiece...

[profastian]

Like all of us, Dai is simply noxious bio-degradable matter covered with bio-degradable skin.

Well said Br. Porus.. That's a masterpiece...

Every word he utters is a masterpiece...

[Al Zulfiqar]

biradar and porus.

well-said. the abdesyedna bohras of today have drifted too far away from the principles of islam and our original deen. they have now shamelessly descended into an abyss of kufr, shirk and cult worship. they resort to every low-down trick to pervert the wordings of the quran and our past scriptures to justify their ends. they are becoming bolder as days go by. the extravagant celebrations of the 99th salgirah have only served to embolden them further and now they do not hesitate to shout their strange and distorted beliefs from the rooftops. apparently they are wantonly following in the direction set by their masters without the least bit of guilt nor do they suffer any pangs of conscience. they are not even afraid of the inevitable but terrible consequences that may emanate from their open confession of their deviant beliefs and practices, confident that their shrewd masters will bribe, cajole and deceive the rest of the muslims as they have successfully done so far.

i for one, have decided that its a complete waste of time trying to reform or influence these heathens and kafirs. i might as well try to emancipate hindus and pagans, perhaps they may be more amenable to reason and fear of allah.

all that we are able to achieve by arguing with such fools and brainwashed morons is going back and forth spouting expletives and trading barbs. every discussion is reduced to the lowest common denominator, i.e. the gutter level of the abdes, which is where they are most comfortable, that being their comfort zone. I wish to have no part of it.

i can see the urchins and brutes smirking and slapping each other at my statement, but do i care?

[porus]

Thank you Biradar and Al Zulfiqar,

I would like abdes to provide a translation of the passage from Himma that Murtaza has provided. We might then get an insight into their interpretation of the passage. For sometime on this board, sujood to Dai has been justified by abdes on the basis of Himma of Qadi Noman. I want to point out that no such justification is available from Qadi Noman in his Himma.

Let me translate several more relevant sentences from the passage:

وقال: لا تسجدوا إلا لله

فاإنما نهى عز و جل عن السجود لأحد من دونه يتخذه إلها معبودا| فاما السجود تعظيما له فهم ينه عنه
فالذي نهى عنه رسول الله صلع من السجود اليه من اقتدى في ذلك

And He (Allah) said: "Do not prostrate (do sujood) to anyone other than Allah"

Thus, Azza wa Jal (Allah) has forbidden sujood to anyone except Himself and who (that anyone other than Allah) is taken as a god to be worshipped (ma'abood). As for sujood of respect (sujood ta'aziman) to him (to other than Allah), that is also forbidden. And Rasulullah (s.a.w.) forbade his followers to do sujood to him (Nabi).


بما رأه من الحبشة الذين يسجدون لملوكهم
فاولئك انما سجدوا لهم من دون الله لأ نهم مجوس لا يعرفون الله تعالى
ف نهى النبي عن الإقتداء بهم

When Nabi {s.a.w.) saw some Abbysinians performing sajda to their Kings, that was because they were Majoos (Magi) who had no knowledge about Allah Ta'ala. And Nabi (saw) forbade his followers to copy their example.

[accountability]

thankyou Porus. As always you were the best.
But one thing bothers me, why does Syedna want some one to do sajda before him, we cant say that it is not syedna who wants it, because he is knowingly accepting it and approving it and kind of demanding it. Does it please him to make people little before him.
Making some one prostate before oneself, is to belittle , indignify or to humilate. I still dont understand why humilating people has become so called doctorine of dawoodi bohra mustaali fatimi religion. Even Agha Khan does not make his follower do sujda before him, though he claims to be imam, and not dai or subordinate to imam. there is something really weird and wrong crept into our religion.

[ghulam muhammed]

But one thing bothers me, why does Syedna want some one to do sajda before him, we cant say that it is not syedna who wants it, because he is knowingly accepting it and approving it and kind of demanding it. Does it please him to make people little before him.

INFLATED EGO.

[porus]

But one thing bothers me, why does Syedna want some one to do sajda before him, we cant say that it is not syedna who wants it, because he is knowingly accepting it and approving it and kind of demanding it. Does it please him to make people little before him.

It is arrogance. Here is a clip from Superman 2. General Zod demands that the President of USA kneel before him. He proceeds to make the President dance around his fingers, demanding repeated kneelings.

What is hillarious in our context is that General Zod then asks "Who is this imbecile?". The title of the clip is "General Zod being Smartass".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0P781lz9E8

[Fatwa Banker]

Remember Qiyam ? He would have called this a spontaneous act of respect.

[progticide]

I understand your problem. You are intellectually dishonest and not true to yourself.

Porus bhai,

I have experienced similar with Aqs.

In reference to chest beating (which Burhanuddin sahab/Shabab group incorrectly refers as "Matam"). I presented Sayyedina va Aaka va Molana Abd-a-Ali Saifuddin (r) book reference where he categorically commands all his amils and mumineens not to do chest beating by hands or tools in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.).

But Aqs responded with intellectually dishonesty on above.

So, it seems some of the abde-Burhanuddin sahab here (on this forum) are intellectually dishonest.

Mubarak, you are a liar and a cheat. You have lied to your fellow prog followers and admirers who find your rubbish post so interesting.

Let me prove my point...

According to you, Mausam e Bahar, the book that you have quoted in your post in the topic "Matam, Aaka Abd-a-ali saifuddin (R.A.) v/s Burhanuddin "dated Sat April 03, 2010, 3:50 am, that this book Mausam e Bahar is authored by Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin sahib, and you have used this book to refute the actions of present Dai-e-Mutlaq Syedna Burhanuddin sahib (TUS) and tried to impress your idiot fellow progs with your nonsense. I am sure you are referring to the same book in the above post again.

Well then, to everyone’s surprise, here’s the truth. The book Mausam e Bahar was not even remotely authored by Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin saheb. The author of this book is some Shaikh Muhammad Ali Ibn Mulla Jiwabhai.

Anyone can make a simple web search and find out if what I said is incorrect. Let me help the reformist with a website dear to them http://www.dbrjna.org/id14.html

Now, Mubarak, don’t give the same lameduck excuse which you progs are so used to that you mentioned Syedna Abdeali saheb’s name by mistake and that you were only quoting to a portion of this book allegedly attributed to Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin saheb with no proof of authenticity and in your excitement to post nonsense and insult for the present Dai-e-Mutlaq you forgot to mention the real author’s name. Because, if this was a mistake you would not have mentioned about the same book again and attributed it to Syedna Abdeali Saheb again in this post. This means you are purposely and deliberately misguiding your fellow progs who think you are so educated and knowledgable.

So now we all know the intellectual soundness and religious truthfulness of this liar Mubarak.