Dai Al Mutlaq is Masoom or is he ?

[porus]

anajmi,

You seriously need to go back to your Arabic classes.

[anajmi]

Oh I do every week. It is time you took up some Arabic yourself as it seems you are getting rusty. You might also want to fix your record which seems to be broken. It seems to be stuck on the same track like Adam's.

You might want to correct me if I am wrong. Does the male plural exclude females or not? I learned this in beginner's arabic that the when addressing both male and female, the male plural is used.

[porus]

anajmi,

Did you forget Mubahila? What did Prophet say to Allah when he got Ali, Fatima Hasan and Husain together with him?

[anajmi]

Why don't you remind us? Unless you want me to go and do my own research?

Did he say "O Allah, these are the people of my house. My wives are not a part of my household". That is what he said correct?

It is very simple to understand that when it comes to sacrifice, the sacrifice of the child is the most difficult. Prophet Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son and not his wife!! The prophet (saw) was asked to pick the people that would be most difficult for him to loose thereby making that challenge that much of a bigger test of his faith. None of this means that his wives are not a part of his household. That is a shia twist to all this.

So, let us come back to the issue at hand which is the male plural and female plural shall we?

[Adam]

PORUS

I have said that ultimately, I am the source. I consult history as related by both the Sunni and Shia and come to my own conclusion.

This, according to me is Un-Islamic, rather more of a "Philosopher" who only listens to himself.
Islam teaches us to "follow". Not make our own conclusions.

As far as I am aware none of the Panjatan has explicitly claimed infallibility. But I am open to correction.
However, Sayedna once related an episode described by Qadi Noman (he did not cite the book) which comes close to Nabi claiming 'infallibility' for himself. Once while Nabi was distributing 'maal', a person, unhappy with what he was given, complained to Rasulullah that Nabi was not being 'fair' to him. Rasulullah said, "If I do not do justice, who would do it?" That is the first part of the hadith. What happens later is not relevant to the issue at hand.

Yes, this example what we believe, it shows that Rasulullah is Masoom, ie doesn't make a mistake.
A few more ayats:
(وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة اذا قضى الله ورسوله امراً ان يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم، ومن يعصِ الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبيناً
(Prophet makes the decision and no one has a right to contradict it. = Masum)
(لكم فى رسول الله أسوة حسنة
Everyone must follow the Prophet = Masoom (Allah would never say to follow someone who makes a mistake)
وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحي
Every word the Prophet speaks is from Wahye and never wrong.

ANAJMI

So, let us come back to the issue at hand which is the male plural and female plural shall we?

Yes, the male plural is for both only Males OR Male and Female.
Our Dawoodi Bohra interpretation is firstly Panjatan (Males and 1 Female) & their progeny.

[profastian]

PORUS

I have said that ultimately, I am the source. I consult history as related by both the Sunni and Shia and come to my own conclusion.

If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.

[SBM]

PORUS

If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.

Prof
Nobody has denied to your own interpretation . NO ONE FROM PROGRESSIVE HAVE DEMANDED PROOF OF ANY SOURCE OR HAS ASKED IF YOU BELIEVE IT IS YOUR MASTER ADAM FOR WHOM YOU HAVE BEEN A CHEERLEADER WHO HAS BEEN QUESTIONING OTHERS BELIEVES AND DEMANDING TO PROVIDE WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN?

[anajmi]

Adam,

Yes, the male plural is for both only Males OR Male and Female.
Our Dawoodi Bohra interpretation is firstly Panjatan (Males and 1 Female) & their progeny.

I have already established that the Dawoodi Bohra interpretation is incorrect based upon ayahs from the Quran. I have also shown that your sources have been corrupted. Anything you say, might not be reliable at all if coming from those same sources.

[porus]

If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.

I am entitled to my own interpretations and I have the right to seek and question my beliefs. In fact, it is my duty to do so. In that enterprise, I seek the wisdom of Masters both of the past and present, Muslims and non-Muslim. Ultimately I am responsible for my views. Not others from whom I seek wisdom.

As I have said, many of my beliefs are not my own but the result of brainwashing, initially in childhood and later by significant others including the media. Hence the need to constantly examine them. I invite everyone to exercise their right to criticize and question my beliefs and interpretations. And I have the right to criticize and question the beliefs and interpretations of others whether they participate here or not. That is the purpose of this forum.

And of course, you are entitled to your beliefs and interpretations but I seriously doubt that they are yours. As for interpretations, you already admit you rely entirely on others. If you do not want them commented upon, do not participate here. You will be blissfully unaware of what is being discussed here.

By the way, learn something about the meanings of the Quranic words Kafir and Mushrik. And understand why someone, nominally a Muslim, could open himself to charges of being called Kafir and Mushrik.

[porus]

This, according to me is Un-Islamic, rather more of a "Philosopher" who only listens to himself.
Islam teaches us to "follow". Not make our own conclusions.

Does not the Quran exhort us to ‘ponder over things’ too? Who did the great philosophers of the Fatimid era follow in re-interpreting the Quran in Neo-Platonist fashion. In this, I am of the opinion that the Fatimid Imams were students of these philosophers not their teachers. And they used their authority to rubber-stamp what they learned from their philosophers.

Yes, this example what we believe, it shows that Rasulullah is Masoom, ie doesn't make a mistake.
A few more ayats:
(وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة اذا قضى الله ورسوله امراً ان يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم، ومن يعصِ الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبيناً
(Prophet makes the decision and no one has a right to contradict it. = Masum)
(لكم فى رسول الله أسوة حسنة
Everyone must follow the Prophet = Masoom (Allah would never say to follow someone who makes a mistake)
وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحي
Every word the Prophet speaks is from Wahye and never wrong.

Thank you for pointing out those verses. These are ayaat 33:36, 33:21, 53:3 respectively.

These verses are Allah’s pronouncements on infallibility of Muhammad. I agree with what you wrote wholeheartedly. In fact, in our discussion of 33:33, I have claimed that Muhammad must be considered infallible. If we do not, then the whole of Quran comes into question. Adam, you are relatively new participant on this forum and you may not be aware that I have discussed this issue several times here in the past.

I posted Sayedna’s bayaan above to highlight the point that Nabi Muhammad, on his own, came close to claiming infallibility for himself. Ali himself also came close to it in my interpretation of his statement “sal’ooni, sal’ooni qabl an tafaqqadooni”. However, these are interpretations. While Allah has rendered them infallible, they themselves have not explicitly claimed infallibility. Nevertheless, as far as Panjatan are concerned, whether they claim infallibility or not is immaterial as Allah Himself has testified it for them.

However, the question that you have not addressed yet is why do you consider anyone other than Panjatan infallible.

Remember, I do not deny your belief to follow anyone you wish. That does not make you a DB nor does it unmake you one. Having been born to DB parents is sufficient condition for being a DB.

[ghulam muhammed]

Yes, this example what we believe, it shows that Rasulullah is Masoom, ie doesn't make a mistake.
A few more ayats:
(وما كان لمؤمن ولا مؤمنة اذا قضى الله ورسوله امراً ان يكون لهم الخيرة من أمرهم، ومن يعصِ الله ورسوله فقد ضل ضلالاً مبيناً
(Prophet makes the decision and no one has a right to contradict it. = Masum)
(لكم فى رسول الله أسوة حسنة
Everyone must follow the Prophet = Masoom (Allah would never say to follow someone who makes a mistake)
وما ينطق عن الهوى ان هو الا وحي يوحي
Every word the Prophet speaks is from Wahye and never wrong.

Now Adam's next step will be to relate the above ayats to the dai :-

DAI makes a decision and no one has the right to conradict it = Masum.
Everyone must follow the DAI = Masum.
Every word the DAI speaks is from Ilhm of the hidden imam and never wrong. Hence Rasul Allah (s.a.w.) = Masum, Imams appointed by a chain from Rasul Allah (s.a.w.) = Masum, Dai appointed by Imam = Masum. See how simple it is, Adam is unneccessarily wasting space of this forum, he could have simply quoted the ayats initially and proved his point !!!

[anajmi]

If we do not, then the whole of Quran comes into question.

The whole of the Quran is already under question by those who do not believe in the Quran or the infallibility of the Prophet (saw). Those who believe in the Quran to be the word of Allah do not need to believe in the infallibility of the prophet (saw). This notion of independent infallibility is idiotic because the prophet (saw) never said or did anything that wasn't with Allah's permission or command. Consider it this way, if I have an infallible master and I only do what my master commands me to do, does that make me infallible too? Of course not.

[Muslim First]

Adam
(Prophet makes the decision and no one has a right to contradict it. = Masum)

Prophet was Masum only in religious matter since he was under Allah's guidance. In worldly matters he was just wise leader. Prophet was asked to advise how to plant date saplings and they followed his guidance. Saplings did not survive and prophet told farmer that farming was not his job.

[profastian]

If you think that you are entitled to your own interpretation, and why do you want to deny us our right. You can believe what you want and we will believe in what we want. Who are you to criticize? Who are you to label someone as Kafirs and mushriks.

I am entitled to my own interpretations and I have the right to seek and question my beliefs. In fact, it is my duty to do so. In that enterprise, I seek the wisdom of Masters both of the past and present, Muslims and non-Muslim. Ultimately I am responsible for my views. Not others from whom I seek wisdom.

As I have said, many of my beliefs are not my own but the result of brainwashing, initially in childhood and later by significant others including the media. Hence the need to constantly examine them. I invite everyone to exercise their right to criticize and question my beliefs and interpretations. And I have the right to criticize and question the beliefs and interpretations of others whether they participate here or not. That is the purpose of this forum.

And of course, you are entitled to your beliefs and interpretations but I seriously doubt that they are yours. As for interpretations, you already admit you rely entirely on others. If you do not want them commented upon, do not participate here. You will be blissfully unaware of what is being discussed here.

By the way, learn something about the meanings of the Quranic words Kafir and Mushrik. And understand why someone, nominally a Muslim, could open himself to charges of being called Kafir and Mushrik.

You have a right to criticize but no right to pass judgements.

[Adam]

@Al Zulfiqar

Is it me or does his comments keep getting immature?

[profastian]

@Al Zulfiqar

Is it me or does his comments keep getting immature?

Believe me its not you

[porus]

The whole of the Quran is already under question by those who do not believe in the Quran or the infallibility of the Prophet (saw). Those who believe in the Quran to be the word of Allah do not need to believe in the infallibility of the prophet (saw). This notion of independent infallibility is idiotic because the prophet (saw) never said or did anything that wasn't with Allah's permission or command. Consider it this way, if I have an infallible master and I only do what my master commands me to do, does that make me infallible too? Of course not.

There is no independent evidence that the Quran is Allah's word except the word of the Prophet. If you do not believe the Prophet to be infallible, how can you guarantee that he has not been fallible in transmitting the Quran?

Prophet was Masum only in religious matter since he was under Allah's guidance. In worldly matters he was just wise leader.

Does Quran say that?

[profastian]

Prophet was Masum only in religious matter since he was under Allah's guidance. In worldly matters he was just wise leader.

Does Quran say that?

What does it matter whether Quran says so or not, if he is not infallible then he could have made it that up too.

[anajmi]

There is no independent evidence that the Quran is Allah's word except the word of the Prophet. If you do not believe the Prophet to be infallible, how can you guarantee that he has not been fallible in transmitting the Quran?

Because the infallibility of the Quran is guaranteed by Allah in the Quran. The prophet (saw) has never said that "I guarantee the Quran is the same that I received from Allah". Does he say that? What do the first couple of ayahs of the second surah of the Quran say? Are they the words of the prophet (saw) or the words of Allah himself? And do not make a mockery of Allah by making him dependent on an infallible human for the correct transmission of his Quran. Allah needed the best human not to guarantee transmission, but just so that it would be easy for the people to trust him, which is what you are lacking. There are no guarantees over here. Just faith!!

[anajmi]

Does Quran say that?

Quran says, obey Allah and obey the prophet (saw). Which means that you have to obey the Quran and you have to obey the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). The sunnah clearly mentions the hadith that bro Muslim First talked about. None of these require the prophet (saw) to be "infallible".

By the way, I would really like to have the shia definition of "infallible" or "Masoom", other than Al Zulfikars definition of masoom. Can someone please help?

[Kaka Akela]

Quran says obey Allah and Rasul and the ulul amar, currently the Dai is the ulul amar according to the DB beliefs.
Rasulullah SWA is masum as in Quran it say Vallaho yasemoka min annas. Meaning of Masoom is one who does not commit any sin knowingly.

[anajmi]

Kaka,

Can you please give me the surah and the ayah number?

[Kaka Akela]

Surat Maida : (5:67)

[anajmi]

which word corresponds to Masum? Allah is saying that he will protect the prophet (saw) from the people. Vallaho Yasemoka Min Annas means that "And Allah will protect you from the people". Does that mean the prophet (saw) is Masum? Where is the mention about not committing sin knowingly in the ayah?

[think]

i know malik ul ashtar is no masoom. I am fully arare of his devious ways.

[porus]

There is no independent evidence that the Quran is Allah's word except the word of the Prophet. If you do not believe the Prophet to be infallible, how can you guarantee that he has not been fallible in transmitting the Quran?

Because the infallibility of the Quran is guaranteed by Allah in the Quran. The prophet (saw) has never said that "I guarantee the Quran is the same that I received from Allah". Does he say that? What do the first couple of ayahs of the second surah of the Quran say? Are they the words of the prophet (saw) or the words of Allah himself? And do not make a mockery of Allah by making him dependent on an infallible human for the correct transmission of his Quran. Allah needed the best human not to guarantee transmission, but just so that it would be easy for the people to trust him, which is what you are lacking. There are no guarantees over here. Just faith!!

Absurd logic!

Muhammad claimed that he received the Quran from Allah. There is no way to know if Muhammad is telling the truth except, as you say, you take it to be so purely on faith.

It is the belief of Muslims that Muhammad was purified and rendered infallible in readiness to receive the Quran. There is one story in which angels were observed to operate on his heart on a trip to Syria (?)

There is no evidence that Quran is Allah's words except that Muhammad says that they are. As far as you and I are concerned, they are actually Muhammad's words. The best you can say is that you believe Muhammad speaks the truth when he says that they are Allah's words and not his.

Once you accept Muhammad's claim that they are from Allah then everything in the book becomes eternal truth for you. And one truth in the book is that Muhammad is infallible. If you do not agree with that then it follows that Quran also in fallible, notwithstanding its claim that it is infallible.

If you do not agree that Muhammad is infallible then there will remain a lingering doubt about whether Muhammad rendered the Quran faithfully.

Does Quran state that Muhammad was fallible except in transmitting the Quran? Does Muhammad say that? In fact, the historical evidence is that Muhammad acted in complete faith that he was infallible.

[anajmi]

rendered infallible

I am not sure what that even means anymore. Was Hazrat Ali's heart cleansed in a similar fashion? No. How about Hazrat Fatima and her sons who are also infallible according to your logic? Either all their hearts were cleansed, or cleansing of heart doesn't lead to infallibility (whatever the heck that means).

Once you accept Muhammad's claim that they are from Allah then everything in the book becomes eternal truth for you. And one truth in the book is that Muhammad is infallible. If you do not agree with that then it follows that Quran also in fallible, notwithstanding its claim that it is infallible.

If the prophet (saw) had been tasked by Allah to write the Quran in his own words without the direct download from Allah via Jibraeel (as), infallibility would be a requirement for the prophet (saw). I do not agree with the infallibility of the prophet (saw). The Quran is protected by the Almighty the one and only infallible being which is Allah.

If you do not agree that Muhammad is infallible then there will remain a lingering doubt about whether Muhammad rendered the Quran faithfully.

I do not have any lingering doubt in my mind about whether the Quran was rendered faithfully or not. Consider this, inspite of all his supposed infallibility, the prophet (saw) couldn't read or write. He taught the Quran to people who memorized it and wrote it down. The prophet (saw) couldn't validate what they were writing down was a faithful rendition or not could he?

Does Quran state that Muhammad was fallible except in transmitting the Quran?

Does the Quran state that prophet Muhammad (saw) was infallible? Can you give me the word "infallible" from the Quran or one of its translations in English? Infallibility is a bottleneck created by people who need an idol that they can see and worship. This is the problem that Islam came to get rid of in the first place.

Does Muhammad say that?

Of course he did. The incident about the crops is very well known. Unless you do not consider that a part of the definition of "infallible", which is why I have been asking you to give me a definition of "infallible".

In fact, the historical evidence is that Muhammad acted in complete faith that he was infallible.

Is that the definition of infallible? One who acts in complete faith is infallible? What does that mean?

[porus]

anajmi,

Thank you. I shall not directly engage with you on this issue any further. Consider yourself having won victory by default because I am simply too exhausted with you to continue.

[anajmi]

porus,

I now realise that these victories are not as sweet as they used to be a few years ago because they are of no use. A few months from now when someone like Adam resurfaces, we will go through this same discussion again and leave it mid way yet again. Although I would love to hear what you have to say one more time. How about I give you the last word and promise that I won't respond?

[mmv]

Surat Maida : (5:67)

Kaka
I think you have quoted wrong Ayah.
5:67- doesn't says "obey Allah and Rasul and the ulul amar"
Sahih International (5:67)
O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.