Concept of Infallibility

[anajmi]

The bohra concept of infallibility is extremely weird. The wikipedia definition of infallibility is

When a person is called 'infallible', this can mean any of the following:

Some (or all) statements or teachings made by this person can be relied on to be certainly true.
This person always makes good and moral choices, and his actions may never be considered immoral or evil.
This person is always right, and never wrong or incorrect.
Furthermore, infallibility can refer to the both 'absence of error' or to the 'inability to err'.

However, according to the Bohras and their scholars, infallibility has nothing to do with the character of a person. It has simply to do with who it is that said you are infallible. The Dai is infallible because he was appointed by an infallible Dai who in turn was appointed by another infallible Dai. Hence immoral acts of the Dai are not a criteria in determining his infallibility. Who came up with this idea of infallibility? Allah says in the Quran that not an atom sized good deed or bad deed will go unnoticed on the day of judgment. It doesn't matter who appointed you.

[Adam]

ANAJMI.
I've told you many times. Since your Sunni/Wahabi stance is clear, the Dai is too far down the discussion line for you, and too much for your comprehension.
First discuss the Wasi (Mowlana Ali), then Imams then start discussing the Dai.
The Prophet spread the word of Islam and passed away. You buck stops there. That's where/what you should be discussing. Discuss the cause, not the effect.

[anajmi]

There is no need to discuss anyone in order to discuss the deeds of the Dai. You are not going to take me for a ride like your Dai has taken you and other abde idiots for a ride. If I see a Hindu committing a crime, I don't have to go and study the bhagwad gita to call him out. The only morons over here are the abde idiots.

[Adam]

There is no need to discuss anyone in order to discuss the deeds of the Dai.

You're discussing "infallibility". That is a religious topic. So you have to start from the root of the problem.
Because if you asked me.
Why/How is the Dai infallible? Ans : Because the Imam is
Why/How is the Imam infallible? Ans : Because the Prophet is.

[anajmi]

And I have already shown dozens of times and so have other members of this forum, that the Dai is not infallible. Infact, he goes against the orders of the prophet (saw) on a dialy basis. The prophet (saw) was "infallible" because Allah makes it clear in the Quran that the prophet (saw) never did anything that wasn't from Allah. And Allah did not communicate with any Imam after that nor is he communicating with your Dai. Hence, your Dai is not infallible, your Imams are not infallible.

[ghulam muhammed]

Why/How is the Dai infallible? Ans : Because the Imam is

Why/How is the Imam infallible? Ans : Because the Prophet is.

Is the Mansoos too Infallible ?? Or he becomes one only after the present dai's death ?
Are the Mazun and Mukasir infallible too ?

[Muslim First]

Adam
Why/How is the Imam infallible? Ans : Because the Prophet is.

Prophet was infallible only in religious matter.

Let him prove first if imamat is rquired as per Qur'an and Sunnah
use this as guide

When you want to help a Burhanai Taheri bohra to realize how deviated he/she is from Islam or to help a fellow Muslim from the mainstream not to be deceived by Burhanai Taheri bohra, there are TWO QUESTIONS that completely do the job for you:

Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imaamat in Quran ?
Question Two: How does the current Imaam lead Burhanai Taheri bohra?

I elaborate on each of these here:

Question One: Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?

This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It's importance is to the extend that Burhanai Taheri bohra holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?

Ask Burhanai Taheri bohra to ONLY give you the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries. Do this and you will see how helpless the arguments will be.
From
How to Approach the Shia Brothers/Sisters -
A Straight Forward Logic Instead of a Never Ending Debate
http://allaahuakbar.net/shiites/how_to_ ... rother.htm

[Al Zulfiqar]

if syedna uttered public laanats against the first 3 khalifas, it was because (he thought) he was infallible.
but when he was forced to go on national tv to submit a humiliating apology, was he still infallible?

if syedna tried to smuggle foreign currency from tanzania, it was because (he thought) he was infallible.
but when he was apprehended and banned from the country and had to put up a legal fight to get back in, to bribe and grease palms, was he still infallible?

when he was indulging in money laundering and unislamic acts in saudia, it was because (he thought) he was infallible.
but when he was blacklisted and banned from saudia for 22 years and had to beg and grovel to be allowed in again, was he still infallible?

when he cruelly mistreated and excommunicated his own followers, had them beaten up, isolated and even murdered, it was because (he thought) he was infallible.
but when he was found guilty and heavily censured by 2 independent govt judicial committees, was he still infallible?

when he goes on shikar trips and murders wild animals for pleasure as a form of bloodthirsty sport, it is because (he thinks) he is infallible.
but when those animals belong to endangered species and his hobby violates the injunctions of the holy quran and the behaviour of the prophet, is the dai still infallible?

silence from adam on this will not be tolerated and will be construed as cowardice and criminal collusion with his infallible syedna.

and before he thinks of asking about my SOURCES, let him first refute this from his own SOURCES and show how the above acts can still instill respect for the dai as infallible.

[Human]

No-one is was or will be infallible. Its a human characteristic to fail at times in one way or the other. If they're infallible, then they're not human.

[Adam]

There are mixed opinions on this thread on the concept of infallibility.
Let's get to the basis. (EVERYONE please)
Was the Prophet infallible?

Anajmi said NO before, now he's saying a Yes, kind of.

ghulam muhammed
You're talking about Dawoodi Bohra belief ranks (Mansoos, Mazoon, Mukasir etc), this again is off the track. First discuss the basis, was the Prophet infallible?
Whoever says NO, then let them re-understand Islam.
If they say YES, then we say for the same reason he was/can be, the same way the Imam. (Yes, the Imam may not receive commands direct from Allah, but he received it directly from Imam Ali, who received it directly from the Prophet.) This is our belief. Simple.

[anajmi]

Imam Ali became khalifa many years after the death of the prophet (saw). I seriously doubt that he received instructions on how to handle everything that he came across. The prophet (saw) was receiving instructions from Allah who is everlasting. After the prophet (saw) no one is receiving everlasting instructions. Imam Ali was on his own after the prophet (saw) passed away. Similarly, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain were on their own after Imam Ali passed away and so on and so forth. Besides, if your believe that your Dai is infallible, then it cannot be on the word of the Dai. It has to be on the word of the Imam. Do you have the word of the Imam that your Dai is infallible? No you do not. Similarly, if Imam Ali is to be infallible, it has to be on the word of the prophet (saw). Do you have the word of the prophet (saw) that Imam Ali is infallible? No you do not!! The infallibility attributed to Imam Ali from the Quran has been disputed in many different ways.

And no the prophet (saw) is not "infallible" as per the shia definition of infallible. He is infallible only in that he never did anything outside the command of Allah, which cannot be said for the rest of us, your Dai included.

[Human]

Was the Prophet infallible?

'NO' in my opinion.

[Adam]

HUMAN
Thanks for your opinion. You've already cleared you're not a Muslim.
I still wonder what you're doing on this Forum, since you have nothing much to do with Islam.

[Human]

HUMAN
Thanks for your opinion. You've already cleared you're not a Muslim.
I still wonder what you're doing on this Forum, since you have nothing much to do with Islam.

As I mentioned on another thread, I'm a forced dawood bohra and still pay the forced religious levies (unfortunately). This forum is the only place which gives me free voice unlike the society which is full of blind people or people pretending to be blind. By the way, who told you that it is one's beliefs (be it Islam or something else) that decide he should be on this forum or not? This forum is a free speech forum for DB's or others who have an opinion about the cult. I also hold a valid ejamaat card, so very much in the fold on papers at the very least.

[ghulam muhammed]

You're discussing "infallibility". That is a religious topic. So you have to start from the root of the problem.
Because if you asked me.
Why/How is the Dai infallible? Ans : Because the Imam is
Why/How is the Imam infallible? Ans : Because the Prophet is.

@ Adam,

You claim to be a firm believer of Mola Ali (a.s.) so do I but you go a step forward by saying that you also believe in the sermons in Nahjul Balagha as they are in line with Fatimid beliefs. Now what is your opinion on the following with regard to 'Infallibility" :-

In his Khutbah recorded in Nahj-Al Balaghah # 216, Ali RA Said:

فلا تكفوا عن مقالة بحق ، أو بعدل مشورة ، فإني لست في نفسي بفوق أن أخطىء ، ولا آمن ذلك من فعلي

“Do not evade me as the people of passion are (to be) evaded, do not meet me with flattery and do not think that I shall take it ill if a true thing is said to me, because the person who feels disgusted when truth is said to him or a just matter is placed before him would find it more difficult to act upon them. Don’t stop saying the Truth, or Just Advice, As I am not above making Mistakes, and I am not safe from making Mistakes in my Actions”.

Source: Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 216.

[porus]

In his Khutbah recorded in Nahj-Al Balaghah # 216, Ali RA Said:
فلا تكفوا عن مقالة بحق ، أو بعدل مشورة ، فإني لست في نفسي بفوق أن أخطىء ، ولا آمن ذلك من فعلي

This quote by Ali contradicts the Quran and therefore it is suspect.

I have understood for a long time that Nahjul Balagha is not considered authentic by Da'awat.

I hope brother aqs would not mind if I reproduce here an edited version of my private message to him and his reply:

******

Salaams brother aqs,

Do you know if Da'awat has an official position regarding Nahju_l-Balagha? If so, can you say what it is? If not, do you know what the learned among Bohras are saying about it?

Thank you and regards,

porus

Walekum Afzalus Salaam

br. I dont know what is the official position of dawat but one thing is sure which i quoted some times back that we believe the books available in open market are heavily distorted and specially Nahjul Balagha, and only dawat has the books in pristine form.

Moreover Nahjul Balagha as a whole is not taught in any sabak.....

Aqs

[anajmi]

This quote by Ali contradicts the Quran and therefore it is suspect.

You might want to clarify that statement. It contradicts your interpretation of the Quran. Because it does not contradict my interpretation of the Quran at all.

Dawat is in a habit of not considering authentic anything that might cause a problem for the infallibility of the Dai.

[ghulam muhammed]

I have understood for a long time that Nahjul Balagha is not considered authentic by Da'awat.

If that is the case then abdes on this forum should beware of Adam who promotes this book with a claim that the same is in line with fatimid beliefs and bohra ideology. It seems that he is more confused then academic and in the bargain raising more controversies rather then solutions.

[SBM]

I have understood for a long time that Nahjul Balagha is not considered authentic by Da'awat.

If that is the case then abdes on this forum should beware of Adam who promotes this book with a claim that the same is in line with fatimid beliefs and bohra ideology. It seems that he is more confused then academic and in the bargain raising more controversies rather then solutions.

That is why we should not call them ABDES but REGRESSIVE.

[anajmi]

By the way, the mother of all books, The Quran, is freely available in the open market. Does the dawat have anything to say about that?

[ghulam muhammed]

By the way, the mother of all books, The Quran, if freely available in the open market. Does the dawat have anything to say about that?

Off course !! But that is only for the selected few who have the azeem barkat of attending sabaks wherein it is secretly conveyed that the present Quran as compiled by Hazrat Umar is not in its original form.

[anajmi]

If that were true, then we have another problem with the infallibility of the prophet (saw), don't we now?

[SBM]

By the way, the mother of all books, The Quran, if freely available in the open market. Does the dawat have anything to say about that?

Off course !! But that is only for the selected few who have the azeem barkat of attending sabaks wherein it is secretly conveyed that the present Quran as compiled by Hazrat Umar is not in its original form.

Is that Hazarat Umar or Hazarat Usman who compiled the current form of Quran (for my knowledge only)

[porus]

Is that Hazarat Umar or Hazarat Usman who compiled the current form of Quran (for my knowledge only)

Quran had already been compiled completely under the guidance of Prophet before his death. There were several versions of it and one of them was with Ummul Mumineen, Hafsa, who was Umar's daughter. There were others including the one compiled by Ali.

Following the battle of Yamama where a number of Huffaz were killed, Umar suggested to Abu Bakr that official Quran should be established from existing copies. This task was completed during Uthman's caliphate.

[humanbeing]

Hi
I don’t have any expertise to debate over such topic, however from a layman POV and referring to my common sense I would like to say that.

Virtue of Infallibility was bestowed on Ahle Bayt (Muhammad, Ali, Fatema, Hasan and Hussain) in Quran. This virtue was bestowed on family of Prophet Muhammad and not over any of his friends, which were also first believers of Islam and Quran. If I can say; Its easier to convince your subordinate family members to accept, believe and follow what head of the family preaches as compared to convince friends and strangers in a faith which would question current religious beliefs.

Without drawing any parallel comparison to Prohpet’s infallibility. Dai are to be considered Infallible as they are appointed by Infallible Imams from the lineage of Ahle Bayt !

My queries are : Is Infallibility a Virtue or Legacy ?

[Adam]

@PORUS
About the DB stance on the Nehjul Balagah.
Yes there are many distorted ones available in the market.
What DB s know for "sure" are that the Kutbas and sermons quoted by Fatimid authorities from the Nehjul Balagah are considered authentic.

What gulam mohammed has quoted, actually if you read the original text, he has "slyly" omitted what the Imam says later on, which, according to my understanding, that Allah will guide him, thus it is not a problem.
فَإِنِّي لَسْتُ فِي نَفْسِي بِفَوْقِ أَنْ أُخْطِئَ وَ لَا آمَنُ ذَلِكَ مِنْ فِعْلِي إِلَّا أَنْ يَكْفِيَ اللَّهُ مِنْ نَفْسِي مَا هُوَ أَمْلَكُ بِهِ مِنِّي فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا وَ أَنْتُمْ عَبِيدٌ مَمْلُوكُونَ لِرَبٍّ لَا رَبَّ غَيْرُهُ يَمْلِكُ مِنَّا مَا لَا نَمْلِكُ مِنْ أَنْفُسِنَا وَ أَخْرَجَنَا مِمَّا كُنَّا فِيهِ إِلَى مَا صَلَحْنَا عَلَيْهِ فَأَبْدَلَنَا بَعْدَ الضَّلَالَةِ بِالْهُدَى وَ أَعْطَانَا الْبَصِيرَةَ بَعْدَ الْعَمَى .

[Al Zulfiqar]

this is the stupidest reply i have ever heard! it is so self-serving and retarded that even a donkey in delirium will not accept it!!!

now without any authentic SOURCES, our charlatan friend adam claims: "What DB s know for "sure" are that the Kutbas and sermons quoted by Fatimid authorities from the Nehjul Balagah are considered authentic."

so when it comes to him, his "sure" opinions are above reproach, rebuke and questioning, but when it comes to his detractors he rushes in like a mad bull to ask for SOURCES, books and hadiths from all the prophets, imams etc etc ad nauseum??!

now let us see another example of adam's stupidity. this is what bro. gm had posted above about ali's quote:
"As I am not above making Mistakes, and I am not safe from making Mistakes in my Actions”.

adam now accuses Bro. gm of cunning and deception by omitting the latter part of the quote: "what the Imam says later on, which, according to my understanding, that Allah will guide him, thus it is not a problem"

now this is what i pray to allah everyday. "please excuse me my mistakes, because i am but an error-prone human made of mud and clay. my mistakes are not intentional but innocent, so help me allah and guide me on the right path."

'thus it is not a problem' (adam's words) and i can be accepted as infallible too. does this make me an imam also?

[anajmi]

This is precisely the circular logic that the abdes and some educated folks like porus are also lost in and are hence going around in circles.

If infallibility of humans is a bottleneck toward belief in Allah, then unfortunately, you are committing shirk. You have now associated partners with Allah. Belief in Allah for these folks is incomplete if belief in human infallibility is not associated with it. Hence these people are mushriks.

[porus]

anajmi speaks on Fallibility of Prophet:

Quran is infallible word of Allah.

Allah chose Muhammad, a fallible human being, to be His spokesman. He arranged it so that Muhammad would not make an error in copying His words.

So, Muhammad is like a fax machine connected to the Divine Transmitter, passively relaying Allah's words.

When he is not a fax machine, he is just like any other fallible human being subject to errors.

One of the functions of Muhammad is to explain the Quran, When he does that then he suddenly becomes infallible. He is not a fax machine any more but a translating machine, infallibly translating Allah's intentions.

When he does something very human like marrying a 6 year old girl, he suddenly becomes an infallible recipient of Divine commands to do just that.

But he is fallible. In some instances, he acts against Allah like he did when he frowned and turned away from a blind man. Allah then reprimands him.

But he never acts against Allah's pleasure and Allah is always pleased with him

But he does act against Allah's pleasure and Allah is displeased with him and He reprimands him.

There is absolutely no contradiction between the last two paragraphs.

[anajmi]

In some instances, he acts against Allah like he did when he frowned and turned away from a blind man. Allah then reprimands him.

That is the beauty of it isn't it? Allah has given us proof in the Quran that even the prophet (saw) is bound to make mistakes, but Allah is there to correct him. This is pure evidence for us that Allah has ensured that his Quran is delievered error free. Thank you for making my point for me.

Now, Allah could've used a donkey to deliver his message and the donkey would've spoken the Quran too. But then, I doubt anyone would've believed the donkey. So Allah chose the best person, cleansed his heart, not so that his Quran could be delivered properly, but just so that it would become easy for us to believe in him. Unfortunately, some choose exaggerations over simplicity and go around in circles!! By making Allah dependent on an infallible human to deliver his Quran, people like porus have done that which is strictly prohibited in the Quran and that is not to associate partners with Allah.

Only a few days ago you had accepted that you have to accept the Quran to be the word of Allah without first believing in the infallibility of the messenger. The infallibility would follow thereafter (only in your interpretation). Hence, the contradiction is only in your head!!