FEMALE CIRCUMCISION

[Al Zulfiqar]

I'll try and get the wordings.

then get it. please post here the misaq as administered to bohra kids in its entirety and then we will go from there.

let us see how much of a man you are. you profess to have in your possession every damn conceivable bohra scripture, past or present, and you do not have the wordings of the misaaq???

[chokri Bohri]

This practice should be stopped or at least changes where a female who is 18 year or more can take this decision based on her wish. If possible the age should be increased from 18 to 21.

[Human]

FGM is a harmful thing that is proven scientifically/medically. It should be stopped full stop. I've posted URL's from World health organisation reports and research papers on this forum as well.

[ozmujaheed]

Adam where is it written that fgm is Sunnah ?

If you mean since the prophet has not baned it it should be ok ?

Well ice and ecstasy has not be explicitel stated 1400 years ago that it is haram, so does it make it permissible

Why don't the abdes just give in and state it is wrong and the Diai can catchup with reality !

[revertbohra]

Adam where is it written that fgm is Sunnah ?

If you mean since the prophet has not baned it it should be ok ?

Well ice and ecstasy has not be explicitel stated 1400 years ago that it is haram, so does it make it permissible

Why don't the abdes just give in and state it is wrong and the Diai can catchup with reality !

its a sunnah....even mentioned in sunnni books

[chokri Bohri]

its a sunnah....even mentioned in sunnni books

Can you post the proof.

[Adam]

@Al Zulfiqar - The child who gets really excited over tiny things.

you profess to have in your possession every damn conceivable bohra scripture, past or present, and you do not have the wordings of the misaaq???

I have never "professed" that.
I did have the words to the Misaaq, but not at that moment as I was not at home, to refer to it.
Now, back to your silly little question, I asked you to mention which part of the Misaaq you were referring to. As there is no mention of "Khatna" in the misaaq wordings. Please clarify.

@OZ
Senseless arguments because we have to keep repeating everything

Adam where is it written that fgm is Sunnah ?
If you mean since the prophet has not baned it it should be ok
Well ice and ecstasy has not be explicitel stated 1400 years ago that it is haram, so does it make it permissible

Yes it is in the Sunnah.
1. Mentioned in DB texts from the Prophet and Imam Ali AS. (And mentioned in some Sunni and Shia books as I have quoted before, but again this is just for reference, as we DBs don't need Sunni and Shia texts to follow, we follow our own teachings.)
2. The Prophet was for all mankind. If the Prophet banned or allowed something it will continue to exist so.
3. Yes, the words "ecstacy" "cocaine" haven't been mentioned by their "names" in the Sunnah, but the "concept" is the same. The Sunnah clearly states that anything that intoxicates you, is Haram. Simple.
And when in doubt, there's always an authority you refer to for answers. That's why the Prophet appointed Imam Ali in his place. Imam after Imam. (But sadly you have no one to help you understand)

[SBM]

(And mentioned in some Sunni and Shia books as I have quoted before, but again this is just for reference, as we DBs don't need Sunni and Shia texts to follow, we follow our own teachings.)

Adam
Two questions:
Are not you contradicting in your sentence: read the underline sentence and then the next one
Second one What are the teachings of DB. -- Saajada to Syedna (when did it start) Calling Syedna Haqiqi Kaba (when did that start)
I have an old Sahifa (printed by Ali Bhai Sharaf Ali) and I compared it to the new one, there are many alterations so which one is authentic
the one used by previous Dais or the current one altered by 51 and 52.

[Adam]

Adam
Two questions:
Are not you contradicting in your sentence: read the underline sentence and then the next one

Second one What are the teachings of DB. -- Saajada to Syedna (when did it start) Calling Syedna Haqiqi Kaba (when did that start)

No, I am not contradicting. I've stated VERY clearly that WE DAWOODI BOHRAS follow only what our sources tell us. The OTHER (Shia/Sunni) references are just for your information that some other sects believe in it as well. If we assume other sects did not have it, but DB sources did, we'd only follow DB sources as they are our authority.

Second one What are the teachings of DB. -- Saajada to Syedna (when did it start) Calling Syedna Haqiqi Kaba (when did that start)

Sajda - has been mentioned in the Quran and Fatimid texts (Majalis Musayaraat, Kitab ul Himmah) even before the Duat were appointed (Do you follow/believe in Fatimid texts?) Another example, Syedna Abde ALi Saifuddins Kika bhai "Sajda dai karjo salaam"
Haqiqi Ka'aba - Farazdaq has mentioned it (PORUS posted something about it, where I corrected his translation), Syedna Moiyed in Imam Mustansirs time has called him that. (Do you follow/believe in Fatimid texts?)

About the differences between the Sahifas. Please cite a few examples for our knowledge.
Basically, if there are differences, they wouldn't be in the CORE beliefs and practices, maybe in the "Tatawwo"?

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

in MY opinion, you are the immature but cunning child here who keeps harping on the same tune, "quote your sources, who is your leader, which are your books" crap. and every time someone contradicts you, you throw tantrums and apoplectic fits and call them cowards!

if you are a man, please post the complete wordings of the misaq as presently administered. why are you beating around the bush and now asking me which sections i want you to quote and where etc?

[Hussain_KSA]

Recently I have come accross the Deewan ( Compliation of poems) of Fardzaq during my reasearch. I was surprise to read that he has written many poems even in praise of those to whom shia or bohras don't like and send laanats, for example sister of yazeed and Ma'awiya. I have scanned the entire book in PDF version.

Here is what is found about him in widipedia

Hammam ibn Ghalib Abu Firas, (Arabic: همام بن غالب ، ابو فراس‎) commonly known as al-Farazdaq (Arabic: الفرزدق‎) (Arabicized form of Persian Parāzda پرازده: "lump of dough")[1] (ca. 641 - ca. 728-730) was an Arab poet.

He was born in Kazma and lived at Basra. He was a member of Darim, one of the most respected divisions of the Bani Tamim, and his mother was of the tribe of Dabba. His grandfather Sa'sa' was a Bedouin of great repute, his father Ghalib followed the same manner of life until Basra was founded, and was famous for his generosity and hospitality.

At the age of 15, Farazdaq was known as a poet, and though checked for a short time by the advice of the caliph Ali to devote his attention to the study of the Qur'an, he soon returned to making verse. In the true Bedouin spirit he devoted his talent largely to satire and attacked the Bani Nahshal and the Bani Fuqaim. When Ziyad, a member of the latter tribe, became governor of Basra in 669, the poet was compelled to flee, first to Kufa, and then, as he was still too near Ziyad, to Medina, where he was well received by the city's emir, Said ibn al-As. Here he remained about ten years, writing satires on Bedouin tribes, but avoiding city politics.

But he lived a prodigal life, and his amorous verses led to his expulsion by the caliph Marwan I. Just at that time he learned of the death of Ziyad and returned to Basra, where he secured the favor of Ziyad's successor Ubayd Allah ibn Ziyad. Much of his poetry was now devoted to his matrimonial affairs. He had taken advantage of his position as guardian and married his cousin Nawar against her will. She sought help in vain from the court of Basra and from various tribes. All feared the poet's satires. At last she fled to Mecca and appealed to the political contender to the Ummayids Abdallah ibn Zubayr, who, however, succeeded in inducing her to consent to a confirmation of the marriage.

Quarrels soon arose again. Farazdaq took a second wife, and after her death a third, to annoy Nawar. Finally he consented to a divorce pronounced by Hasan al-Basri. Another subject occasioned a long series of verses, namely his feud with his rival Jarir and his tribe the Bani Kulaib. These poems are published as the Nakaid of Jarir and al-Farazdaq.

Al-Farazdaq became official poet to the Umayyad caliph Al-Walid I (reigned 705–715), to whom he dedicated a number of panegyrics.[2]

He is most famous for the poem that he gave in Makkah when Ali bin Hussain bin Ali bin Abu Talib (Zayn al-Abidin) entered the Haram of the Kaba angering the emir. The poem is extremely powerful. It is because of this poem that he was imprisoned.[3]

[Adam]

adam,
in MY opinion, you are the immature but cunning child here who keeps harping on the same tune, "quote your sources, who is your leader, which are your books" crap. and every time someone contradicts you, you throw tantrums and apoplectic fits and call them cowards!

Dear Al Zulfiqar.
I may repeat the same thing over, but that's because it is very important to understand what you stand by. In the beginning I used to ask about your sources and your leader, because I thought you'd have one, it's pretty obvious you DON'T. So i'll just simply ask. Are you a Muslim? If yes, what's your belief in the Prophet and the Imamat of Ali AS.

BUT, leaving that alone, i'm sure you (and others) appreciate, that I do continue to answer questions which I understand and know.
In respect to the above, i've been continuing to add on, so appreciate that.

if you are a man, please post the complete wordings of the misaq as presently administered. why are you beating around the bush and now asking me which sections i want you to quote and where etc?

Well,
1. You haven't told me which part of the Misaaq your are referring to about this khatna business, just give me a hint, is it in the beginning, middle, towards the end? What's the context, please help me out here, I haven't seen/read any such thing.
2. You're not important enough to me to sit and type the entire Misaaq out, or scan the book. So, like I mentioned, please cite whereabouts you are talking about to make it easier
3. This whole Misaaq business doesn't concern you, you aren't a Bohra. Or, do you claim to be? I'm still confused, because you don't seem to clarify that.

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

not only are you immature, but also a most cunning and devious one.

you know very well why i am asking for the entire misaq to be posted here. your avoiding it only displays your cowardice and reluctance to answer questions which put your skewed beliefs and your dai in an awkward position.

until such time that you do not put up the misaq wordings here, i will consider you as a sissy and paid lackey of the kothar and treat you as such. all this 'you are not important' etc crap to wiggle your way out, only highlights your childishness.

[profastian]

adam,

not only are you immature, but also a most cunning and devious one.

you know very well why i am asking for the entire misaq to be posted here. your avoiding it only displays your cowardice and reluctance to answer questions which put your skewed beliefs and your dai in an awkward position.

until such time that you do not put up the misaq wordings here, i

Code: Select all

will consider [code]you as a sissy and paid lackey of the kothar and treat you as such[/code].

all this 'you are not important' etc crap to wiggle your way out, only highlights your childishness.

Until such time that you disclose your believes, the entire bohra community will consider you as a sissy and paid lackey of Ajger and treat you as such.
P.S. I think abdes should drop the word "abdes" and use "Dawoodi Bohras", proggies are not Dawoodi Bohras, so no room for confusion

[SBM]

P.S. I think abdes should drop the word "abdes" and use "Dawoodi Bohras", proggies are not Dawoodi Bohras, so no room for confusion

Pro: I agree with you that is why I called you guys as "REGRESSIVES" opposite of us "PROGRESSIVES" and you can not drop word ABDE because that is what Aqa Moula's Khushi is that you are Abde Syedna or Amte Syedna. Are you going to go against the Farman of Vazarat and drop word "ABDE" how dare you do that without RAZA

[ghulam muhammed]

This is a bit out of topic but nevertheless involves the ritual of circumcision thru unscientific methods :-

Two-week-old baby who died of herpes 'contracted disease through circumcision'

The death of an baby boy who contracted herpes has been linked to a controversial circumcision ritual.

The two-week-old infant was struck with the disease after being circumcised as part of an Orthodox Jewish ceremony.

During the ritual, the presiding rabbi removes blood from the cut using his mouth.

The practice persists despite the health risks, with babies at risk of contracting diseases which are relatively harmless to adults but could be fatal for children.

His official cause of death was 'disseminated herpes simplex virus Type 1, complicating ritual circumcision with oral suction'.

The identity of the mohel - a religious official who specialises in circumcisions - is unknown.


This is not the first time that an infant has died as a result of the ultra-Orthodox ritual of metzizah b' peh, which is the practice of using the mouth to remove blood.

A baby boy died in New York in 2004 after undergoing the ceremony.
Health experts have criticised the ritual on the ground that it involves 'inherent risks' to infants' health.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ision.html

[ozmujaheed]

Has any bohri woman who performs fgm been arrested by the law enforcement ?

Anyone caught with surgical complication

What is te egalitarian status in India regding fgm?

[Al Zulfiqar]

profas,

the 'entire' bohra community is not concerned about my beliefs. its only a few diehard DABR's (dawoodi abde bohra regressives) like you and your master adam, who lose their sleep over my stance and whereabouts.

btw, as bro. sbm has pointed out, you dare not drop abde from your description, as that is what you are destined and commanded to be, slaves. mentally, physically and spiritually. slaves who are circumcised twice. once physically to donate your khaal to make jooti's for syedna, and once mentally to emasculate the receptors in your brain which make you a free human being.

[Adam]

@Al Zulfiqar
My dear old confused friend:

you know very well why i am asking for the entire misaq to be posted here.

No, actually I do not. Please clarify.
If it is for this khatna business you claim, then at least quote a sentence or the summary of the sentence, or a hint of that particular part in the Misaaq that you claim has about Khatnas. Is that so hard to do?

your avoiding it only displays your cowardice

No it doesn't. Plus you failiure to quote a part that you are so sure about shows your ignorance.
And not being able to disclose your faith in simple terms, show's your confusion with your inner self.

until such time that you do not put up the misaq wordings here, i will consider you as a sissy

I don't have to, and you can consider me whatever you want, be my guest :p

P.S = Do you claim to be a Muslim?

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

there you go again peeing in your diapers, scared of quoting the present day misaq. your childish tantrums know no bounds. you are a classic case of 'spare the rod and spoil the brat', a lesson which your parents sorely missed.

the million dollar question YOU should be answering is: are YOU a muslim? you do sajda to a human being (not commanded by allah!), you sing with pride, sajda tujhe o dai wajib hai, you call him haqiqi kaaba, thus mocking the actual kaaba in mecca, you refer to him as the only living natiqe quran, you indulge in kufr and shirk, you believe he performs miracles, that he is ghaib na maalik and yet he cant see the filth and corruption under his nose, you praise and condone his cold blooded killing of big game, and have the gumption to still shamelessly call yrself a MUSLIM????

[Humsafar]

Adam sweetheart, just produce the whole misaaq text here and put yourself out of misery. We can't see you in such a state of blithering confusion. There are only so many ways of beating about the bush, and You seem to be breaking the record. Do you want us to nominate you for the Guiness Book or sometning? We'll be glad to help.

[Adam]

Al Zulfiqar
Since you're SO sure about this whole Khatna thing. It's pretty suprising you can't even remember the quotation which YOU CLAIM refers to the Khatna allegedly mentioned in the Misaaq.

Adam sweetheart, just produce the whole misaaq text here and put yourself out of misery. We can't see you in such a state of blithering confusion

I'm not in any confusion. If yes, I'm confused about Al Zulfiqars false claim and what his hidden agendas are.

Anyways, I just saw this on the thread, a translation, someone else has posted it, I haven't even gone through it yet, but you can go through it. I'm pretty sure you wont find the words Khatna or Circumcision in it
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=574&p=92142&hilit=translation#p92142

I rest my case. Al Zulfiqar s claims are wrong. He's a confused liar

[anajmi]

Another brilliant faux pas by Adam. He points to a thread that actually rips the Dai and his misaq into shreds. With enemies like Adam, who needs friends.

[Adam]

Yes, I am aware that that thread was made by the "Opposition", and I never said I agreed with what they said.
All my dear confused friend Al Zulfiqar wanted was a translation.
I guided him towards whatever translation was given there. Let him read for Khatna and Circumcision etc etc. Good luck to him in finding it!

[Adam]

Well?

[Al Zulfiqar]

I'm confused about Al Zulfiqars .....hidden agendas are.

adam,

i see that you are back after satiating yrself on your shafiq bawa's 102 nd birthday celebrations. there is no need to lose your sleep and get confused about my agenda. there is nothing hidden about it.

the agenda is very simple:

the dai and his establishment must be fully accountable to the community. all accounts and actions must be transparent, honest and above board.
the dai and his establishment cannot intimidate and bully members and threaten with excommunication and denial of services and facilities.
dai has no business in the secular lives of his followers, he is only a spiritual guide and should remain within that sphere only.
dai and his family should lead a life of simplicity and avoid pomp, show, glamour and ayyashi, whereby he and his family act as if they are blue blooded 'royals' and his subjects are treated as slaves.
dai's family has no role in the religious lives and routine of bohras. they cannot demand to be treated as 'royals'.
dai should act responsibly and resolve to prevent the present corruption, nepotism and abuse of authority in our community.
dai should return the powers of each individual jamaat and let them function independently as was the practice before 51st dai.

i believe that the dai's office is neccessary to lead the bohra community, but purely as their spiritual and religious guide only, that it is the founding principle of a bohra's faith. but that does not mean that the dai cannot be held responsible and accountable. he is not above man-made or divine laws.

if you do not like this simple agenda, go stuff yrself, but do not resort to circular arguments as is your by now well-known habit, to side step the issues and engage in useless rhetoric.

[Adam]

Great! You've finally come out of the closet!
I'll reply here posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=7099

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

you dont get to dictate which post will be answered and where. this is not your abde regressive jamaat where you can threaten and bully.

your abde regressive method of counting and the indoctrination at secret sabaks have deprived you not only of your balls, but bats and stumps too! look more closely, even the pitch is missing!!

[Adam]

you dont get to dictate which post will be answered and where.

I may not get to dictate where it should be posted.
But simple common sense does tells me the that a conversation should stick to its topic and not be diverted.
Isn't that why a thread is created?

[Adam]

Coming to the current topic of Female Circucision:
From your above post, you seem to be latching on to Dawoodi Bohra faith (before the 51st and 52nd Dai), is that true?
If yes, do you accept their sources for the teachings of Islam?
If yes, then Daimul Islam is one of them. Why don't you accept the act of Female Circumcision?
(Unless you aren't a DB or Fatimid followed, which is why all this confusion is about u)