Even God and his crew still have to depend on money for "God's house", then Dai can hardly be blamed for collecting money. Although the Dai is amassing a little too much I admitSBM wrote:Every one thinks some one else will pay and since it is Allah's house Allah will take care of it a wrong hypothesis
Bhai Shree Progticide Ji sahib,progticide wrote:Are you progs mentally retarded or are you trying to escape answering this topic with your worthless rhetoric?
I'll give you some motivation. Lets see if you are capable to answer after this.
Forget mainstream DBs. Assume for a moment that mainstream DBs never existed. Assume you are the only surviving flag-bearers of Ismaili Tayyibi faith. Assume that you are the only group to be defined as DBs after the passing away of 46th Dai or 26th dai or 29th dai whichever you want to choose (The above is just assumption, dont take it to your heads literally). Now, without any reference to any Dai or institution or individual associated with current mainstream DB fold, just answer the questions listed at the beginning of the topic.
Prof. Poo (Porus)? Doctor Mubarak? Willing to attempt now?
All others on this forum who have said what they wanted to say, now please take rest, and allow scholars like Porus and Doctor Mubarak to express their views.
I am sure Porus and Doctor Mubarak would not disappoint their fans and mureeds who are eagerly waiting to know the answers to the above questions I have raised in this topic? Or it is that they themselves have no clue about the answers?
A mushrikana view point going against the Quran.Masoom person = by default cannot commit error and know's each and every thing of present, past and future.
Are you kidding me, how are they irrelevant. According to the official position of the reformists, they believe in a hidden Imam. When the imam makes an appearance how would they confirm him to be the rightful Imam? If they go by genealogy, then Agha Khan can make the claim too. They cannot go by the DB dai, as he is corrupt according to them. If they go by ilm and external appearances, then it is unlikely that they all agree on the same person. So how would they decide. Would they cast a vote. Or what agjar or insap says? It is not only relevant, it is almost a matter of life and death for them. People spend a lifetime adhering to a belief system and when it is proved false, it is akin to death. Not finding a way to identify the rightful Imam, would be their life gone worthless,(especially for the veteran progressives)Humsafar wrote:Progticide, stop beating the hypothetical Imam horse. Your questions are irrelevant. They do not matter.
We'll cross the bridge when we come to it.profastian wrote:When the imam makes an appearance how would they confirm him to be the rightful Imam?
If all the bohras die and there is no more DAI, the Imam is as good as dead. The bohra faith will inconclusively prove to be faulty and false. Same situation if every Muslim die. So bad exampleanajmi wrote:Seriously man, I am banging my head against the wall. When the Imam comes and he is truly infallible, he will be able to easily prove it. Then we won't need a Dai or Asgar Ali Engineer or anyone else to confirm it. Get that into you head you moron!! You need confirmation only if you yourself are unsure because the guy is unable to prove his worth.
Say for eg. there is a nuclear war and all bohras die. The Imam comes and no one is able to recognize him. What will the Imam do? Go back into seclusion because no one recognized him? Are you seriously that dumb?
Well, they have a need. They publicize their need in their official position. If they remove the belief in the Imam and DAI from their official position, then admin should certainly delete this topic, (right progticideanajmi wrote:Good. So if the Imam is of no use to anybody other than an abde idiot what is the need for progressives in recognizing a useless Imam?
)
Are you afraid of the day when the real Imam comes and hangs every "royal" member with the entrail of every two-bit Kothari hanger-on?Would they vote or something, or would they elect a leader to decide on someone, or would everyone go his own way?Not all of them would agree on a single person, in the event of two or more Imams appearing, all being pious and with good deeds, would they?anajmi wrote:Progressives will recognize the Imam based upon his deeds and do not need validations from a corrupt Dai whose Imam will be useless to anyone else.
Nice dream KakajiKaka Akela wrote:Progticide: this is such a silly question to ask,"how would you verify"? No one needs to verify, he will be azhar min as Shams, as obvious as a Sun.
He will not come out of seclusion but will send one of his hujjats first and I think he will send him to the Ayatollahs of Iran and will show him some miracle by Imam's raza, that way Ayatollah will submit himself to the Imam and Imam will have a ready made hukumat or territory to rule on, Then slowly everyone will realize and run upto him to give their bayat/misaq, and Sulemani, Alavi and Dawoodi Bohras Dai will not be far behind.
Why would an Imam need a person of lesser grade to introduce him to the world, he will be genuine and as obvious as the bright sun for every one to see and bow and obey to him. It is abig hype by Dawoodi Bohras that we need the Dai to show us who the imam is.
Doctor SahibDoctor wrote:
Bhai Shree Progticide Ji sahib,
The simplest task in the world is to identify true (Mustakar) Imam. I am surprised, a genious like yourself don't know and has to inquire from Progressives!!! ch ch ch!!!
As per true Dawoodi Bohras i.e. those who beleive from 1st Mustaqar Imam Molana Aadam Qulli till 46th rightful Dai Mutlaq, Imam uz zaman till Imam Quam (ala zikre hissalam): Mustakar Imam is a Masoom person = by default cannot commit error and know's each and every thing of present, past and future. Thus he knows and speak every language. So, we Progressive will arrange to speak with him in all (common and exotic) languages - if he pass this basic litmus test we will test his knowledge with few vague faculties of science.
By the way, as Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahib is masoom per you and him, why not u let all allow to test above two criterion on him? Because he is Masoom he should make no error in conversing in exotic languages and he should solve all science queries without error because Burhanuddin sahib is Masoom. If he is proven Masoom then please trust me I will do tablig work for him. If he fails in Masoom litmus test then bhai Progticide please join Dawoodi Bohra Roshan Khayal Jamat in Malegaon or Bohra Youth Jamat in Udaipr.
Thanks bhai Progticide. Let's say together: Fatimi Daawat Zindabad.
What I understand is that you mean that when Imam comes out of seclusion, there would be multiple claimants to the title. So how would we determine who is the rightful Imam. And for that job, you have a dai, who will make you identify the true Imam. Hence, one needs a dai to identify the true Imam. According to your logic brother, Prophet Mohammed would have needed a dai to validate him as well. Was there a dai to prove his prophethood?profastian wrote:Would they vote or something, or would they elect a leader to decide on someone, or would everyone go his own way?Not all of them would agree on a single person, in the event of two or more Imams appearing, all being pious and with good deeds, would they?anajmi wrote:Progressives will recognize the Imam based upon his deeds and do not need validations from a corrupt Dai whose Imam will be useless to anyone else.
Br Rational, why worryRationalist wrote:
What I understand is that you mean that when Imam comes out of seclusion, there would be multiple claimants to the title. So how would we determine who is the rightful Imam. And for that job, you have a dai, who will make you identify the true Imam. Hence, one needs a dai to identify the true Imam. According to your logic brother, Prophet Mohammed would have needed a dai to validate him as well. Was there a dai to prove his prophethood?
ROFLMAOMuslim First wrote: Mustakar Imam is a Masoom person = by default cannot commit error and know's each and every thing of present, past and future. Thus he knows and speak every language. So, we Progressive will arrange to speak with him in all (common and exotic) languages - if he pass this basic litmus test we will test his knowledge with few vague faculties of science.
Doctor Mubarak,Doctor wrote: As per true Dawoodi Bohras i.e. those who beleive from 1st Mustaqar Imam Molana Aadam Qulli till 46th rightful Dai Mutlaq, Imam uz zaman till Imam Quam (ala zikre hissalam): Mustakar Imam is a Masoom person = by default cannot commit error and know's each and every thing of present, past and future. Thus he knows and speak every language. So, we Progressive will arrange to speak with him in all (common and exotic) languages - if he pass this basic litmus test we will test his knowledge with few vague faculties of science.
By the way, as Bade Mulla Burhanuddin sahib is masoom per you and him, why not u let all allow to test above two criterion on him? Because he is Masoom he should make no error in conversing in exotic languages and he should solve all science queries without error because Burhanuddin sahib is Masoom. If he is proven Masoom then please trust me I will do tablig work for him. If he fails in Masoom litmus test then bhai Progticide please join Dawoodi Bohra Roshan Khayal Jamat in Malegaon or Bohra Youth Jamat in Udaipr.
Even though Mazoon and his family were no where in celebrating 101 Milad.Hussain_KSA wrote:The Dai will verify the true Imam. Therefore we are trying to verify the true Dai. If we get through verifying the true Dai than there will be no problem in verifying the Imam as well. Mazoon and Mukasir will be witness in the process of verifying the Imam.
Al Zulfiqar wrote:since syedna himself cannot declare his own self as imam, most probably, and this is my firm belief, on his passing, muffy - the great qabr whisperer - will proclaim that 'hamara dai, je asal ma hamara imam tha, yeh jannat thi paigham moklave chhe ane farmave chhe, "ke ai mara momeeno. huj tamaro imam uz zaman tho, hu e tamara saghla na wastey panjatan paak paase ghani dua kidhi chhe, tamara saghlana salaam ataa kidha chhe, tame badha mara farzando jannat ma aala makaam no darajjo hasil karso, tamara vastey hur and farishta saghla intezaam kare chhe. intezaar kare chhe, bas tame mara mansoos ane tamara mola muffadal par imam samjhine jaan ane maal nichawar kari dejo. ya hussain! have aaj pachi tamo momeneen daur al kashf ma cho, imam par thi parda uthi gaya chhe, tamara imam tamara aiyn na saamne jalwa afroz chhe, tamo saghla khush rehjo ane tamara bawa shafiq ne yaad kari lejo, ya hussain!".
This should really go on the home page of this site, in gold and bold lettersprofastian wrote:ROFLMAOMuslim First wrote: Mustakar Imam is a Masoom person = by default cannot commit error and know's each and every thing of present, past and future. Thus he knows and speak every language. So, we Progressive will arrange to speak with him in all (common and exotic) languages - if he pass this basic litmus test we will test his knowledge with few vague faculties of science.
Neither was he present during the "Nass" ceremony of the prospective 53rd candidate !!!SBM wrote:Hussain_KSA wrote:
The Dai will verify the true Imam. Therefore we are trying to verify the true Dai. If we get through verifying the true Dai than there will be no problem in verifying the Imam as well. Mazoon and Mukasir will be witness in the process of verifying the Imam.
Even though Mazoon and his family were no where in celebrating 101 Milad.