The True Imam - How would you verify?

[humanbeing]

The True Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah. This shuld answer your question.

But, we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to leads us to that maqaam where we would be introduced to the Imam as the followers of his Daawat.

We are dependent on Dai who would lead us to introduce to Imam !! so Imam would be the one who Dai introduces to us !! But Imam is not dependent on Dai’s introduction, but we are dependent on Dai to tell us who is Imam.

So If a person introduces himself to bohra, that he is true Imam, we need to look at Dai for confirmation because we are surely dependent on the Dai-e-Mutlaq to identify Imam !! But Imam is surely not dependent on anyone except Allah to prove his identity !!

[Adam]

@Mustafa
Thank you for bringing us back to the topic (its very common for it to be diverted mostly by "the opposition". The majority of the time we were discussing Imamat with those who don't even accept its foundation!)

Coming back to the topic:
Al Zulfiqars question (i'm not sure if he's serious or not), because according to what he said, "if the Imam says that the proggies are correct" brings upon Mustafas correct question - How to verify the true Imam?

Who will verify if this Imam is the true one?

Very simply & short, it was the Imam who appointed the Dai as the leader for the followers. So, on his return it will be the Dai who introduces the people to the Imam. For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?
Its all one link that isn't broken.
This is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

I refer to the first Satr of the 3 Mastoor Imams.
When Imam Mehdi AS finally did Zuhoor, it was Dai Abi Abdillah who said to the followers in Sijimasa "This is your Imam".

[Muslim First]

Very simply & short, it was the Imam who appointed the Dai as the leader for the followers. So, on his return it will be the Dai who introduces the people to the Imam. For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?
Its all one link that isn't broken.
This is the Dawoodi Bohra belief.

Ya but he will have to contend with 3 claimants. Or may be 4

DB Dai- or Doctor in Udepur
Alvi Daiand Imam hazir himself- Aga khan

IS 1 Millian Db's Daisay right one? or he hos not with nass acoording to 10000 Progs.
50,000 Alvis will say their Dai is right one.
And 10 millian Aga khanis will totally reject him.
And what about 12vers?

Confusion Confusion Adam Bhai?
dont't you think all bohra sect should sit down and decide which Dai is correct one?
Don't you think differnt sects of Shias should have a grand conference to decide which imam is right one?

[Muslim First]

For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?

In Islam you do not need to pray to Prophet to reach to Allah.
You can pray directly to Allah

[Adam]

Ya but he will have to contend with 3 claimants. Or may be 4

It doesn't matter whether they accept it or not. He is our true Imam. Simple as that.

For example, it is through the Prophets we reach Allah. If not for him, how would you verify?

I meant it in BOTH ways.
1. The the Prophet we reach Allah.
2. Through his teachings and guidance we learn of Allah

The same way, through the Dai we will learn of the Imam.

No confusion. Crystal clear.
@Mustafa - I answered this for you Hope all is well

[ghulam muhammed]

@ Adam,

Your question was 'The True Imam - How would you verify" ? As per your belief you need someone to identify him which according to you is the bohra dai ALONE. Now what about the Prophet (s.a.w.) and other Prophets ? Did he need another person to identify himself in order to claim prophethood ? Did people believe in him only on assurances given by a third person ? The same goes for Imam also. The Imam if any will not be 'mohtaj' of a corrupt dai to establish his credibility, he himself will be of such immaculate character that the world will gradually accept him. You are undermining the Imam's credibility by claiming that he needs someone of a much lower rank to prove himself. A great person doesnt need to resort to such tactics.

[Adam]

@Gulam
These are my answers, according to my belief. You please answer according to yours.

Your question was 'The True Imam - How would you verify" ? As per your belief you need someone to identify him which according to you is the bohra dai ALONE.

Yes, that's what I said. I don't know/don't care how the Proggies will identify him.

Now what about the Prophet (s.a.w.) and other Prophets ? Did he need another person to identify himself in order to claim prophethood ? Did people believe in him only on assurances given by a third person ? The same goes for Imam also.

If you read up your history, people knew of the Prophets comings from before, texts and people knew about it. The "True Christians" knew about it. So, he was referred to by them.
Yes, the Prophet did do miracles and by seeing this, people were convinced, that may also be possible.

But according to OUR DAWOODI BOHRA BELIEF, as we are a community with a leader, our leader will guide us, just as the leader Dai Abi Abdillah guided his followers during the first Satr

he himself will be of such immaculate character that the world will gradually accept him.

True enough. The world (Proggies and other sects) will gradually accept him, but we will accept right at the beginning, as our Dai guides us!

You are undermining the Imam's credibility by claiming that he needs someone of a much lower rank to prove himself. A great person doesnt need to resort to such tactics.

Don't misquote. The guidance of the Dai isn't to "prove" the Imam. It is to guide them towards the true Imam. Just like the Prophets guided mankind towards Allah. (They couldn't do it without them).

There it is. The Dawoodi Bohra belief - The Dai will guide his followers and proclaim the True Imam.


-----------------------------------------
Since i've been such a good sport, now back to you. GULAM.

Please explain your Proggy belief of the verification of the Imam.
Firstly, do you believe in an Imam? Do you believe an Imam will come forth? And how will you verify?
If you are a follower of Fatimid belief, please quote your references too

[progticide]

As Adam has spelt it out in no uncertain or ambiguous words that the Dai-e-Mutlaq'a word would be final for the mainstream DBs in the matter of identification of the True Imam, there is no room for any debate as far as mainstream DB doctrine on this subject is concerned.

The mainstream DB stand on this is singular, united and clear, has always been and will always remain. Dai-e-Mutlaq would guide us to the True Imam.

Now, let's see if the progressives can come up with their singular & unanimously accepted doctrine on the above subject.

[porus]

I imagine that the first act of the Dai al-Mutlaq when he introduces his Imam to abdes will be to prostrate before him, considering that ayat 36:12 for them means that the entire universe, including Allah Himself, is vested in the Imam.

Does not the Quran command to prostrate before Allah only? Then why should not all 'true' Muslims prostrate before Imam, and, in Imam's satr, the Dai. We must read 36:12 to mean "kull shayy ahsayna-hu fi Dai mubeen". That is why abdes prostrate before the Dai because the entire universe, including Allah Himself, is vested in the Dai. (36:12)

Proggies, being the most obdurate species destined to travel the path of 'ghayr seerat al-mustaqeem' will immediately denounce the Imam who accepts sujood from the Dai as 'Mushrik', because they, being incorrigible and damned lot, do not understand the meaning of ayat 36:12.

Now is the time to end this discussion. "qad tabayyana ar-rushdu min al-ghayy" (2:256)

[Humsafar]

Hello abde boys, looks like you're having a good time playing with your paper toys, eh! It just occurred to me, if the Prophet of Islam needed no introduction from anyone why would the Imam need one? And that too from someone with an inferior rank? I'm sure you boys have some more paper taawil toys to explain that but please spare us. That was just a rhetorical question.
As for identifying the Imam, here's the deal: I'll accept (can't speak for all reformists) the Imam that the Dai introduces. Then I'll tell the Imam all the naughty things the Dai and his spoilt kids are doing. If the Imam agrees and does something about it then he will be a true Imam. If he does not, he will be a false Imam, then you abdes boys, your Dai and the Imam can continue playing with your paper toys and I, for one, will have nothing to do with you bullies. Then all the scripture will not be worth the paper they are written on. So to make it a tad bit interesting, I'll make boats out of all the scriptures, place all your Ahl Al Zikr in them and float then down the river!!!

[Adam]

Hello abde boys, looks like you're having a good time playing with your paper toys, eh! It just occurred to me, if the Prophet of Islam needed no introduction from anyone why would the Imam need one? And that too from someone with an inferior rank?

It may have just occurred to you, but it has already been discussed above.

This is in fact an answer to Gulam who himself is waiting for his Imam. If you have a problem with the concept of the Imam, why don't you take it up with him?

@PORUS
Thanks for you comment. I'm not too sure what the conclusion was.

Does not the Quran command to prostrate before Allah only? Then why should not all 'true' Muslims prostrate before Imam, and, in Imam's satr, the Dai.

The Quran also talks about the Sajda to Adam and Yusuf. Please take it to the other thread.

That is why abdes prostrate before the Dai because the entire universe, including Allah Himself, is vested in the Dai. (36:12)

Allah excluded.
Allah doesn't come under "شئي"

[porus]

The Quran also talks about the Sajda to Adam and Yusuf.

Indeed, it does. Can you relate those Quran incidents to to ayat 41:37?

Specifically, would you consider both Adam and Yusuf to be ayats of Allah? What about the Imam who is now in satr? Is he an ayat?

Is there anything in the universe that is not an ayat of Allah?

[progticide]

Everytime the so-called proggy scholars have posted a response on this thread, they have sought to derail the topic under discussion.

Porus is no different. The topic is on verification of the identity of the True Imam and like an idiot Prof. Poo (porus) is back to discussing the issue of sajda to Dai, Imam etc. on this thread. And I am absolutely sure that some greater idiots from the proggy club would soon join the bandwagon and drag the topic on Sajda and all the regular nonsense which is anything but related to this topic on verifying the True Imam.

What more proof is needed that the Proggy club is devoid of any firm doctrine that would provide a rational explanation to the identification of the True Imam when he makes an appearance to the public.

[Adam]

Very well said Progticide.
I did mention to take the Sajda topic to another thread.
The Progs have no base to any claims.
This is what I had posted earlier:

There it is. The Dawoodi Bohra belief - The Dai will guide his followers and proclaim the True Imam.
-----------------------------------------
Since i've been such a good sport, now back to you. GULAM.
Please explain your Proggy belief of the verification of the Imam.
Firstly, do you believe in an Imam? Do you believe an Imam will come forth? And how will you verify?
If you are a follower of Fatimid belief, please quote your references too

[porus]

Just as Imam Mahdi made a forceful appearance in Ifriqiya long ago, the current Imam will similarly make an appearance and will establish his claim on the basis of his own personal authority. He will not need any Dai to make people recognize him.

(On the last point, if the Imam himself cannot offer evidence for his own authority, the person with an equal or higher authority, a Prophet, must do it for him. This was the case with Yahya and Isa as well as with Muhammad and Ali).

Adam,

Progs have already answered questions regarding verification of the Imam. I have reproduced above my first response on the issue which is located on page 2 of this thread. Only the Imam will set the 'game' up involving his identity.

I perfectly understand the scenario that you are envisaging and I shall be interested in identification of a an authentic Fatimid/Tayyibi reference (pre-Hurrat al Malika) which underpins your belief that only the Dai can identify the 'true' Imam.

You tell us that 'everything in the universe', according to ayat 36:12, is vested in the 'true' Imam. You also appear to be telling us that, in the absence of Imam in satr, 'everything in the universe' in vested in the Dai. Please confirm that last sentence.

Now to your scenario. Say, Imam decides to make an appearance. Here is a person in whom everything in the universe including 'authority' is vested and he has a problem. He is not going to be able to make abdes believe that he is the Imam? Abdes look at the Imam and then look at the Dai, Imam's rival in authority, to confirm what the Imam is saying? So, who, in that case, has the higher authority, Imam or Dai?

What would the Dai do? He will follow the protocol that he has established. He would prostrate in front of the Imam, wouldn't he?

That is why sujood is an important issue in connection with the identity of the Imam. If he declines the sujood of the Dai, he would be the 'true' Imam. Otherwise he would be a false Imam. If you disagree, then relate ayat 41:37 to sujood offered to Adam and, as you believe, sujood to Yusuf.

[anajmi]

porus,

Your line of argument is based upon your interpretation of the Quran. Remember, it was the Imams that started this concept of human Sajda and kissing of the earth in the feet and whatnot. Why then would this Imam, identified by the Dai, refuse a sajda? And by the way, no Imam identified by the Dai will be the true Imam. The true Imam will first rid us of false authority. I will recognize an Imam if he spanks the Dai and kothari goons. That is how I will recognize the true Imam.

[porus]

Your line of argument is based upon your interpretation of the Quran. Remember, it was the Imams that started this concept of human Sajda and kissing of the earth in the feet and whatnot. Why then would this Imam, identified by the Dai, refuse a sajda?

Qadi Noman in his Kitabul Himma recommends kissing of earth in front of Imam but not sujood. I am not convinced that Imam would agree to or approve this innovation (earth kissing). In fact, Qadi Noman got the idea from another book that he had read.

If Imam is held out to be abdes as Natiq-e-Quran, it would be strange if he would allow sujood to himself and, if he did, I agree that in that case he would be a false Imam.

What we have witnessed in this thread is the complete closure of abde minds as a result of sabaq attendance. Sabaqs do not encourage questioning. That would be too confrontational. In sabaqs, abdes express thanks for crumbs of what they believe is 'protected' knowledge and lap it up without thinking. And they come here to confront proggies about their oh so superior knowledge. An unmitigated arrogance, par excellence!

As Adam would say, "A sad story".

[anajmi]

It is indeed a sad story. The Dai has filled it in the shrunken heads of the abde idiots that only he can identify the true Imam. What this means is that he has simply made sure that only his appointee gets the glory. He doesn't want anyone other than his own appointee to be raised to the level of the Imam. He wants to be in full control and wants a figure head Imam to be in place to control the abde idiots.

[Adam]

PORUS
There are many flaws in your statements.
You have to stick to one stand point. Either you believe that there is an Imam present or not. (You've made it very clear that you don't beleive in the Imamat after the Panjatan, so all YOUR probablities of IF the Imam returns, don't mean a thing, to you, nor to me.

You also appear to be telling us that, in the absence of Imam in satr, 'everything in the universe' in vested in the Dai. Please confirm that last sentence.

The Ayat states it for the Imam.
That is our belief.

Now to your scenario. Say, Imam decides to make an appearance. Here is a person in whom everything in the universe including 'authority' is vested and he has a problem. He is not going to be able to make abdes believe that he is the Imam? Abdes look at the Imam and then look at the Dai, Imam's rival in authority, to confirm what the Imam is saying? So, who, in that case, has the higher authority, Imam or Dai?

Firstly there's no "rivalry" according to your sick arrogant mind. And there's no problem.
It is a link. (Sadly your link is broken, or never existed)
Naturally the Imam has and always will have the higher authority. The Dais role at the time is a guide towards the true Imam. As there will be many who may not believe the Imam himself, neither the Dai. The same way many didn't follow the Prophet. Their NOT believing doesn't make them right. That's just tough luck for them.

The Dais role as a guide to his followers basically saying: you were instructed to follow me by the Imam, the Imam has now returned, he is my leader and yours. (Just like Dai Abi Abdallah did)

What would the Dai do? He will follow the protocol that he has established. He would prostrate in front of the Imam, wouldn't he?

That is why sujood is an important issue in connection with the identity of the Imam. If he declines the sujood of the Dai, he would be the 'true' Imam.

Dai would perform the Sajda to his leader (The Imam), as the followers of the Dai performed Sajda to their leader (The Dai) in the past.

What we have witnessed in this thread is the complete closure of abde minds as a result of sabaq attendance. Sabaqs do not encourage questioning.

I'm not sure which Sabaq you've attended by my ones have always been about productive questioning.

Again. My Dear friend Porus and Anajmi.
I do find senseless to be debating the Imamat & Zuhoor with two people who are against the whole concept of continuing Imamat in the first place and are convinced by their own idealogies.
(Anajmi has a bad habit of interfering in convos that don't even concern him! Tells us about the kind of person he is)

It's up to the Proggies and other Imam believing people to clarify their own stance.

This thread was to discuss the verification of the Imam.
The Dawoodi Bohras have a leader and a guide who will guide them to the Imam

The Proggies better courage up to discuss their Imamate. They've been too silent.
Just shows their confusion and two-mindedness. Sad story indeed!
People who I THINK claim to be proggies (ie believe in the Imamat of some sort and Zuhoor etc etc etc)
S. Insaf (very quiet indeed, only when it suits him, he's a coward)
Al Zulfiqar
Gulam Mohammed

Speak up boys! Make "your" Imam proud

[porus]

PORUS
You've made it very clear that you don't beleive in the Imamat after the Panjatan, so all YOUR probablities of IF the Imam returns, don't mean a thing, to you, nor to me.

That is not correct. I do not believe that Imams after Imam Husain are infallible. Imams have continued. However, scholarly opinion favors the view that Imam al-Tayyib was done away with in infancy. Hence no Imams in his progeny exist. Unless further evidence comes forth, I think it is safe to say that Bohra Imam does not exist.

[anajmi]

It is indeed a sad story. The Dai has filled it in the shrunken heads of the abde idiots that only he can identify the true Imam. What this means is that he has simply made sure that only his appointee gets the glory. He doesn't want anyone other than his own appointee to be raised to the level of the Imam. He wants to be in full control and wants a figure head Imam to be in place to control the abde idiots.

Just to continue my point -

This is precisely the reason why the jewish religious clergy rejected the prophethood of Isa (as) and then the prophethood of Muhammad (saw). They wanted a prophet from amongst themselves. They have their idiot followers convinced that unless they identify the prophet, the prophet is not the true prophet!!

[anajmi]

I do find senseless to be debating the Imamat & Zuhoor with two people who are against the whole concept of continuing Imamat in the first place

It would actually be senseless to debate with someone who agrees with you now wouldn't it? But I guess that is a concept that is alien to abde idiots.

[porus]

There it is. The Dawoodi Bohra belief - The Dai will guide his followers and proclaim the True Imam.

You had better be certain of what you are saying because my understanding is that no one but Imam will determine how he will be recognized. However, please do point out a Fatimi/Tayyibi book that endorses your belief.

Returning to the subject of this thread, let me summarize what most on this thread are familiar with. Remember, it is you who raised this highly speculative question which has the merit of being entertaining but not much else. I do not think that any Imam is coming. Nevertheless, here we go.

You have presumably read the Risala No. 24 of Sayedna Taher Saifuddin called 'dhaat al-barakaat'. In this he describes a method by which the Imam, presumably Imam al-Tayyib, made himself appear to one person outside his immediate entourage. That person was a Maghribi Sunni trader, a follower of the Maliki madhab. At that time, Imam resided in a valley in far West of North Africa surrounded by mountains and his residence was not easily accessible.

Imam had left 3 crystal glasses with his Dai in Cairo with the instruction that if the Dai desired to know the whereabouts of his Imam, he was to sell one of the crystals. The crystal would then find its way to the Imam. The crystal was bought by the above-mentioned Maghribi trader. The trader found it difficult to re-sell the crystal because it was extremely expensive. But the trader encountered an emissary of the Imam who took him to the Imam. Before the trader could say anything about the crystal, Imam described it to him displaying his 'hidden' knowledge. He then gave instructions and money to the trader to buy the remaining crystals from the Dai. That is how the Dai came to know the whereabouts of his master.

We can conclude from above that Imam does not explicitly communicate with the Dai but leaves clues by which he might be identified. Thus Imam alone will identify and verify himself. He may or may not use the Dai. In this instance a Sunni trader pointed out the Imam to the Dai. However, the entire recognition game was set up by the Imam himself.

However, let us consider how the recognition of the 'true' Imam has historically been beset with problems to the extent that even his hujjat in Yemen, Hurrat al-Malika, could not be certain whether he was dead or alive.

Following the assassination of Imam Aamir, his cousin Abdul Majid, claimed Fatimid Imamat for himself. Abdul Majid justified his accession to Imamat by claiming nass from Imam Aamir. He let the story out that al-Tayyib's birth was expected but he was not born. Later he let it be known that either his pregnant mother had died or that al-Tayyib had died in infancy.

Some scholars say that Hurratul Malika had for a short time accepted Abdul Majid as the Imam and appointed Ibrahim al-Hamidi as the Chief Dai. She later changed her mind and upheld the claim of al-Tayyib and appointed Dhuaib bin Musa as the Chief Dai. Following Hurratul Malika's death, Ibrahim al-Hamidi pledged allegiance to Dhuaib bin Musa and succeeded him as 2nd Chief Dai.

Thus it appears that we are to rely on miracles to confirm identity of Imam. If that is not available, any contender for Imamat will have to produce proof that he is legitimate descendant of all previous Imams upon whom nass was pronounced. Since that would be quite a task, we can safely say that no Imam is coming and that the Dai will continue to reign for ever and end. The Imam verification ploy is a futile, even though an entertaining, diversion.

[anajmi]

This thread was to discuss the verification of the Imam.
The Dawoodi Bohras have a leader and a guide who will guide them to the Imam

The Dawoodi Bohra leader has been clearly established to have been misleading his followers with his unislamic practices. So it is safe to say that he won't be able to identify the Imam. Hence the progressive argument that the Imam will prove himself with the help of Allah is a much better proposition.

[Adam]

PORUS
Just to be a good sport and clarify what you've left out.
When the first Zuhoor happened, the Dai Abi Abdillah himself proclaimed to the followers "This is your Imam".
The recognition is done through the Dai.
Or, you can look at it this way. There is already an office in place (The Dais) of which the followers must solely follow him, thus the followers of this particular office can only be guided by their leader.
Maybe the Non-Dai believers have another system (i'm not sure about that).

Dawoodi Bohras will go through their leader.
Proggies? What's your system!?

PORUS

I do not think that any Imam is coming. Nevertheless, here we go.

I would say your need to continue this topic stops right there.
This is a discussion between So-called-progs and Abdes (Imamat believing people after the 21st) about the return of the Imam, and HONESTLY doesn't concern you

[Humsafar]

Excellent posts, porus. But no matter what argument you deploy or what resources you quote the Adam boy and his cohorts will not budge from the rut they are stuck in.
Ok, Abde boys, let me put this fruitless discussion to an end. I speak on behalf of all reformists: We will accept the Imam that the Dai introduces. Ok? Fine? Happy? Now stop hyperventilating and calm your nerves with some cool sharbat, and go do countless sajada to your ahl al zikr. And yes, I forgot, once we have the Imam, reformists will deal with the him directly. Then the Dai can go fly a kite.

[anajmi]

Nice try Humsafar, however let me give to you Adam's response before he does.

You will not know who the Imam is because the true Imam will be revealed by the Dai only to the true abde idiots. Since you won't know who the true Imam is, you will never be able to go directly to him.

[porus]

Thanks, Humsafar. You are always an encouraging voice. I do not expect Adam to budge but he must me thanked for affording us all an opportunity to clarify our stance.

PORUS
Just to be a good sport and clarify what you've left out.
When the first Zuhoor happened, the Dai Abi Abdillah himself proclaimed to the followers "This is your Imam".
The recognition is done through the Dai.
Or, you can look at it this way. There is already an office in place (The Dais) of which the followers must solely follow him, thus the followers of this particular office can only be guided by their leader.
Maybe the Non-Dai believers have another system (i'm not sure about that).

And let me point out what you have, I believe, purposely left out. Dai Abi Abdallah was part of Imam's entourage in satr and he knew the Imam very well. That has not been the case since 'occultation' of Imam al-Tayyib. Hence what Sayedna Taher Saifuddin described in his most likely invented story about the Maghribi trader and Imam al-Tayyib is the likely scenario. Imam will make an appearance under his own authority and will not need the Dai, and may or may not use him.

PORUS

I do not think that any Imam is coming. Nevertheless, here we go.

I would say your need to continue this topic stops right there.
This is a discussion between So-called-progs and Abdes (Imamat believing people after the 21st) about the return of the Imam, and HONESTLY doesn't concern you

That is unlikely to happen. Anyone is entitled to offer their point of view on this forum. You should welcome the opportunity to strengthen your faith and convince people like me of your stand. After all, that is the intention of Daimul Islam.

Personally, I have invested enormous time and effort in this subject and I intend to use this forum to publish my stance on the issues. Progs, unlike abdes, differ and often disagree among themselves. That shows independence of thought. I would not want it any other way.

[ghulam muhammed]

If you read up your history, people knew of the Prophets comings from before, texts and people knew about it. The "True Christians" knew about it. So, he was referred to by them.

Yet the majority didnt accept his prophethood, even as per the hindus coming of kalki avatar the signs shown in their vedas point to Prophet (s.a.w.) but still they do not accept him and his religion.

Yes, the Prophet did do miracles and by seeing this, people were convinced, that may also be possible.

You too say that Imam will perform miracles so it makes things much easy doesnt it ?

True enough. The world (Proggies and other sects) will gradually accept him, but we will accept right at the beginning, as our Dai guides us!

This goes true ONLY if the Imam as identified by your dai turns out to be the true one and even if it does then as you say, gradually all will believe in him so it shouldnt be a problem anyway.

Don't misquote. The guidance of the Dai isn't to "prove" the Imam. It is to guide them towards the true Imam. Just like the Prophets guided mankind towards Allah. (They couldn't do it without them).

Ultimately you want to prove that the Imam cant do without the dai whereas actually it should be vice versa, see what the hammering by the cult leader has made you.

[Al Zulfiqar]

i have a very simple stance on this non-issue.

if a corrupt dai who continues on the same path as the present one, declares that the true imam has been revealed and presents him to the abde regressives, i for one, would not accept such an imam.

it would be like dawood ibrahim, or narendra modi, or bal thackeray verifying and endorsing the true imam!