mustafanalwalla wrote:I would beg to differ with you on the fact that we are not answering an "uncomfortable question". I say that the reverse is true. It is people from the refromist side who are dodging the question by derailing it. Also, if some one is propagating his faith with the same vehemence as another is trying to denounce it, this does not make him a "salesman". This choice of words was in very poor taste
Can you / abde scholars / Kothari defenders express your POV as representation from office holders of the bohra community answer following questions :
• Why accountability of funds are not presented openly in the community ?
• How does accountability of funds undermine authority of sayedna saheb’s position ?
• Why does seeking accountability of funds considered as an accusation ?
• Why is mission of spreading Islam stopped during time of Imam-in-seclusion ?
• What are the puntive measures taken to bring justice against embezzlers and breach of trust by Kothari office holders ?
Word salesman here refers to promoting oppressive and manipulative policies to milk commoners abdes of their wealth by playing with emotional sentiments of bohras.
mustafanalwalla wrote: I think this is wrong. what we are saying is that our Dai will verify that this Imam is the true one. It is being misconstrued as "Our Dai will point out to us that there is the true Imam". There is a vast, VAST difference between the 2. Progticide, Profastian, Adam, please correct me if im wrong
MN ! you amuse me, with your logic.
mustafanalwalla wrote:Arre! What is wrong in asking questions? Are the reformists the only ones who have a right to ask questions? And by the way, these questions are absolutely relevant and pertinent to Islam and the Dawoodi Bohra philosophy! Yes, we agree that the Imam will be torch bearer of deen, who is representative of Allah, intelligent, wise and just. but does that mean that our Dai cannot verify Him to be the true Imam? Assume that you say that it is not required. Ok, its not, but even then, whats wrong if our Dai does it? And by the way, we are thumping our philosophy that our Dai will verify for us that this is the True Imam but we are not "oppressing" you into accepting our judgement. We are asking a simple question that for us, our Dai will verify. Who will step forth from the Reformist camp? If more than 1 person steps forth and asusming that they have differing viewpoints, then whose will you accept? Or will they reach at a consensus within themselves? Are we wrong in asking questions and demanding answers? NO. The reformists do it all the time!
MN ! A true Imam will remain a true Imam, a Dai shall acknowledge a true Imam and a bohra will gladly believe acknowledgement of Imam by dai. For rest of non-bohra who doesn’t have dai, wil eventually have True Imam to guide them. So why is abde scholars drumbeating to know who and how will non bohra identify true Imam. As true Imam will comeforth and declare his imamate. Do I miss something here ?
Lets be clear when we say Dai will verify True Imam, verification is a process of authentication, result can be positive or negative. So a subordinate appointed agent of Imam can verify his own master ? Help me understand (please don’t advise me to go to sabaks, it’s a cop-out I know). When one says, “Dai will Verify True Imam” how would he verify true Imam, what are the process, hints, test, signs, presentation ? I think you asked a similar question to reformist camp. A major response from Abde scholars is “Dai’s word are enough proof to verify a True Imam” So it’s an acknowledgement not a verification (as I understand).
mustafanalwalla wrote:I have said this once before. Let me say it again. Allah, Our Imam and our Dai will take us to heaven. Allah, their Imam and thier Dai will take outher Bohra sects to Heaven, Allah will take the Sunni Muslims to Heaven, God, Chirst and the Holy Spirit will lead Christians to Heaven. Ahura Mazda will lead Zorastrians to Heaven. Bhagwaan will lead Hindus to heaven (and i inclue Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs here), Zeus will lead the Greeks to Heaven, Odin will take the Norwegians to Heaven and anyone that i have missed, their Supreme Powers will take them to Heaven. Do you understand what im saying? What i am saying is that higher power that a particular person believes in, will ensure that that person, assuming that they have led a good life, will take them to heaven.
Wow ! that’s a very kind thought you have. I appreciate it. If I can say, this is your personal POV and does not represent abde scholars preachings to the masses. Which is under discussion here. Present your personal POV to abde scholars and you would be debunked for your thoughts, So your POVs are not in sync with bohra philosophies.
mustafanalwalla wrote:The Pope and the Dalai Lama are not doing anything to spread Christianity or Buddhism! Why? Is it maybe because the roles of a Pontiff have, over the passage of time, changed?
Who told you other religions are not doing anything to spread their faith or belief, Christians are still active in proselytizing their faith, they have missionaries in various countries, majority of Christians are open to invite people to their faith and embrace them with open arms without restrictive / opressive covenants. Infact other than Bohra faith and Hinduism (prevailing caste system), other faiths are quiet open to embrace people into their faith, without suppressing freedom and independence.
There is no era of human existence, where word of god can / shall be stopped from spreading.
mustafanalwalla wrote:And when the Dai says that those who do not believe in the Imam will go to hell, it is directed for the Bohra community. Our Dai knows that the God of other people are there too look after them. His role is to look after us and He need not bother about other communities and religons
OMG ! that’s is such a cute thought you have presented. Please substantiate your POV with what is preached in the community, the “Ola Musalmaan” the, “Pela Gair Mumin” concept is a main USP to unite bohra into believing as true occupants of heaven. Where as others are doomed to hell because they did not believe in DB Dai. Schism is promoted to such extent that, even non-bohra Shia belief is debunked and are condemned.
mustafanalwalla wrote:Apologies to Humsafar, but he is not presenting his POV. He is just agreeing to our demands because he wants this topic to end . Besides, do you see anyone else agreeing to him? No!!! Besides, you have answered your own query "Not many officially affiliated progressive members came forward to present their views". So, we are within our rights to reject it.
Gosh ! more than 10 pages of discussion on this topic, responses are given, no one on this forum is a representative authority to finalise a process or person to verify Imam on behalf of communities, Also it has been extensively discussed that, A true Imam does not need to be verified, he would declare his authority by virtue of his conduct and will of Allah.
People from all sides of the argument can only present their view from their perception of learning and orientation.
mustafanalwalla wrote:Also, "no Abdes scholar is presenting their POVs generalizing their manipulative philosophy over entire bohra community". You are completely wrong about this. They are stating a fact. And i am sure that all Dai believing Bohras accept it. And no reformist ever says that his POV is the opinion of the community, they have always said it is their own so there is no chance of us "dancing in disgust and rejecting it"
Again, there is a generalizaton on perception. We quote “ALL” bohras believe what dai will say is more out of social conditioning, orientation and convenience. Can we claim “ALL” bohras have verified by independent judgement and agreed to believe ?
mustafanalwalla wrote:Sorry, you lost me there. I accept the first part of the statement. it baffles me too that how come not many from the reformist camp are coming forward. But what did you mean by "reasons could be simple as no access to net"? did you mean people outside this forum? Lets leave them aside and first ask people on this forum to contribute
Good one ! I second you on that, more observant members shall take part in discussion.
mustafanalwalla wrote: Haa Haa Haa, good try. Fact is that the reformist community on this forum outnumber us maybe 5 to 1. Yes, no doubt that there is a latent frustration somewhere with the Kothar but that does not mean we are sitting quietly. we are getting up and questioning and saying no. The last thing i am is a "scheming abde salesmen of Kothari Inc" but i still will disagree with you.
It would be unfair to make this generalization without proper survey or statistics. However one can see there is a fair number of debaters from all sides of the argument.
MN !! Please don’t take my posts as a personal attack on your personality, you are by self-confession not a Kothari representative. So you can safely ignore such titles..