The True Imam - How would you verify?

[mustafanalwalla]

Hi
I m expressing my POV from a simple common sense thought which comes to my mind. I believe in concept of Imamate, a leader who is learned, wise and just by blessing of Allah. Entire world lives in some sort of multiple organizations. Wherever we go, we come across team / group / committee / associations / society formations with a basic structure of leadership and followers. It’s an instinctive organization of people and mutual agreements to abide by common code of conduct to fulfil set objectives and be a productive member to the cause.

Even prophet Muhammad followed commandments of Allah compiled in a book, and there after any person till today has to learn and preach from the common source which is Quran, believed to be word of Allah. So in true sense Imam is actually deriving his knowledge / power or authority to lead from Quran ( A book). When one claims to follow / believe in Imam, that is actually following words of Quran conveyed by Imam.
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Time and again, scheming abde scholarly salesmen is demanding an explanation of verifying Imam ! even though people from all sides of the argument have presented their POVs. But as we know, they are just stuck to one drumbeat as they cant answer other uncomfortable questions. I would beg to differ with you on the fact that we are not answering an "uncomfortable question". I say that the reverse is true. It is people from the refromist side who are dodging the question by derailing it. Also, if some one is propagating his faith with the same vehemence as another is trying to denounce it, this does not make him a "salesman". This choice of words was in very poor taste

DB abdes first elevate Imam to be the higher authority then a Dai and then makes the Imam identity dependent on recognition from Dai himself. This manipulative circular argument is very demeaning for an Imam which is much awaited to be revealed. Emphasis on verification of Imam makes position of Imam weak and susceptible. For DBs only Dai can identify a true Imam, and whoever Dai points out to be a true Imam will be the true Imam as believed by DBs. So the whole judgement remains on Dai whereas an Imam can only wait to authenticate his position by his subordinate. I think this is wrong. what we are saying is that our Dai will verify that this Imam is the true one. It is being misconstrued as "Our Dai will point out to us that there is the true Imam". There is a vast, VAST difference between the 2. Progticide, Profastian, Adam, please correct me if im wrong

I see a ironical situation here. Few intellectual thinker presented their views, that a true Imam who is a real torch bearer of deen, who is representative of Allah, intelligent, wise and just, does not need verification from anyone. Morever a Dai along with other followers can acknowledge his identity. Whereas DBs on this forum are hell bent on cornering “proggies” to establish a process or identify a person who will indentify a true Imam, thumping down their own oppressive philosophy that only thier Dai can identity a true Imam. Arre! What is wrong in asking questions? Are the reformists the only ones who have a right to ask questions? And by the way, these questions are absolutely relevant and pertinent to Islam and the Dawoodi Bohra philosophy! Yes, we agree that the Imam will be torch bearer of deen, who is representative of Allah, intelligent, wise and just. but does that mean that our Dai cannot verify Him to be the true Imam? Assume that you say that it is not required. Ok, its not, but even then, whats wrong if our Dai does it? And by the way, we are thumping our philosophy that our Dai will verify for us that this is the True Imam but we are not "oppressing" you into accepting our judgement. We are asking a simple question that for us, our Dai will verify. Who will step forth from the Reformist camp? If more than 1 person steps forth and asusming that they have differing viewpoints, then whose will you accept? Or will they reach at a consensus within themselves? Are we wrong in asking questions and demanding answers? NO. The reformists do it all the time!

Another selfish and vague argument presented by orthodox DB abdes on this forum is, Their Dai is only their Dai, Imam identified by Dai is only their Imam and only they will be lead to heaven and not others who don’t believe in Dai and Imam. At the same time, Dai will not undertake any mission to spread Islam and make people aware to believe in Imam-in-seclusion. At the same time, thump down a decree that one who does not believe in Imam will go to hell. Then they will counter argue their philosophy that only an Imam-in-presence can conduct / lead mission of spreading islam, now its more than 800 years Imam-in-Seclusion and there is no hint/sign/prediction/belief on revelation of Imam. Some believe that Imam will appear on day of Qayamat, which is to be a day of judgement, on which the earlier decree will be considered to allocate people to heaven and hell. So that leaves no chance for non bohras to know or learn about such decree present in first place, eventually they would be doomed to hell, while bohras who were blessed by luck as being born in the bohra community would parade to heaven in celebration. I have said this once before. Let me say it again. Allah, Our Imam and our Dai will take us to heaven. Allah, their Imam and thier Dai will take outher Bohra sects to Heaven, Allah will take the Sunni Muslims to Heaven, God, Chirst and the Holy Spirit will lead Christians to Heaven. Ahura Mazda will lead Zorastrians to Heaven. Bhagwaan will lead Hindus to heaven (and i inclue Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs here), Zeus will lead the Greeks to Heaven, Odin will take the Norwegians to Heaven and anyone that i have missed, their Supreme Powers will take them to Heaven. Do you understand what im saying? What i am saying is that higher power that a particular person believes in, will ensure that that person, assuming that they have led a good life, will take them to heaven.
The Pope and the Dalai Lama are not doing anything to spread Christianity or Buddhism! Why? Is it maybe because the roles of a Pontiff have, over the passage of time, changed?
And when the Dai says that those who do not believe in the Imam will go to hell, it is directed for the Bohra community. Our Dai knows that the God of other people are there too look after them. His role is to look after us and He need not bother about other communities and religons

Another observation I got to learn by stubborn demands of abdes to learn about progressive views on verifying of Imam. Not many officially affiliated progressive members came forward to present their views, other than “Humsafar”. Which abdes conveniently reject it as an isolated POV. Abdes scholars can present their POVs generalizing their manipulative philosophy over entire bohra community, but if someone else did so, they will dance in disgust and reject it.
Apologies to Humsafar, but he is not presenting his POV. He is just agreeing to our demands because he wants this topic to end . Besides, do you see anyone else agreeing to him? No!!! Besides, you have answered your own query "Not many officially affiliated progressive members came forward to present their views". So, we are within our rights to reject it.
Also, "no Abdes scholar is presenting their POVs generalizing their manipulative philosophy over entire bohra community". You are completely wrong about this. They are stating a fact. And i am sure that all Dai believing Bohras accept it. And no reformist ever says that his POV is the opinion of the community, they have always said it is their own so there is no chance of us "dancing in disgust and rejecting it"

However we realized that, there are not many progressive members commenting on this forum, people commenting are orthodox bohras, abde scholars, non bohras muslims. Its surprising that majority of progressive members are not part of their own initiative to express their concern, this can be a a topic of discussion on another thread, reasons could be simple as no access to net to disinterest in community affairs, which is a common reason in progressive as well as orthodox bohra communities.
Sorry, you lost me there. I accept the first part of the statement. it baffles me too that how come not many from the reformist camp are coming forward. But what did you mean by "reasons could be simple as no access to net"? did you mean people outside this forum? Lets leave them aside and first ask people on this forum to contribute

If there are many orthodox bohras coming to this thread, and they are in majority over progressives, then It shows a latent frustration of orthodox bohra commoners with Kothari leadership. Even though scheming abde salesmen of Kothari Inc on this forum would deny such pockets of frustration in bohra community and promote only goody-goody picture of shallow showmanship by pushing their gloated POVs to plant bandwagon effect of walayat and feeling of supremacy to divert uncomfortable questions and suppress dissent. Haa Haa Haa, good try. Fact is that the reformist community on this forum outnumber us maybe 5 to 1. Yes, no doubt that there is a latent frustration somewhere with the Kothar but that does not mean we are sitting quietly. we are getting up and questioning and saying no. The last thing i am is a "scheming abde salesmen of Kothari Inc" but i still will disagree with you.

[mustafanalwalla]

Buddy HB, please dont think i hounding you again.

You made some statements and felt it was prudent that i should respond.

I mean no offence to you or your POV so if any is taken, it was not intended.

[humanbeing]

I would beg to differ with you on the fact that we are not answering an "uncomfortable question". I say that the reverse is true. It is people from the refromist side who are dodging the question by derailing it. Also, if some one is propagating his faith with the same vehemence as another is trying to denounce it, this does not make him a "salesman". This choice of words was in very poor taste

Can you / abde scholars / Kothari defenders express your POV as representation from office holders of the bohra community answer following questions :

• Why accountability of funds are not presented openly in the community ?
• How does accountability of funds undermine authority of sayedna saheb’s position ?
• Why does seeking accountability of funds considered as an accusation ?
• Why is mission of spreading Islam stopped during time of Imam-in-seclusion ?
• What are the puntive measures taken to bring justice against embezzlers and breach of trust by Kothari office holders ?

Word salesman here refers to promoting oppressive and manipulative policies to milk commoners abdes of their wealth by playing with emotional sentiments of bohras.

I think this is wrong. what we are saying is that our Dai will verify that this Imam is the true one. It is being misconstrued as "Our Dai will point out to us that there is the true Imam". There is a vast, VAST difference between the 2. Progticide, Profastian, Adam, please correct me if im wrong

MN ! you amuse me, with your logic.

Arre! What is wrong in asking questions? Are the reformists the only ones who have a right to ask questions? And by the way, these questions are absolutely relevant and pertinent to Islam and the Dawoodi Bohra philosophy! Yes, we agree that the Imam will be torch bearer of deen, who is representative of Allah, intelligent, wise and just. but does that mean that our Dai cannot verify Him to be the true Imam? Assume that you say that it is not required. Ok, its not, but even then, whats wrong if our Dai does it? And by the way, we are thumping our philosophy that our Dai will verify for us that this is the True Imam but we are not "oppressing" you into accepting our judgement. We are asking a simple question that for us, our Dai will verify. Who will step forth from the Reformist camp? If more than 1 person steps forth and asusming that they have differing viewpoints, then whose will you accept? Or will they reach at a consensus within themselves? Are we wrong in asking questions and demanding answers? NO. The reformists do it all the time!

MN ! A true Imam will remain a true Imam, a Dai shall acknowledge a true Imam and a bohra will gladly believe acknowledgement of Imam by dai. For rest of non-bohra who doesn’t have dai, wil eventually have True Imam to guide them. So why is abde scholars drumbeating to know who and how will non bohra identify true Imam. As true Imam will comeforth and declare his imamate. Do I miss something here ?

Lets be clear when we say Dai will verify True Imam, verification is a process of authentication, result can be positive or negative. So a subordinate appointed agent of Imam can verify his own master ? Help me understand (please don’t advise me to go to sabaks, it’s a cop-out I know). When one says, “Dai will Verify True Imam” how would he verify true Imam, what are the process, hints, test, signs, presentation ? I think you asked a similar question to reformist camp. A major response from Abde scholars is “Dai’s word are enough proof to verify a True Imam” So it’s an acknowledgement not a verification (as I understand).

I have said this once before. Let me say it again. Allah, Our Imam and our Dai will take us to heaven. Allah, their Imam and thier Dai will take outher Bohra sects to Heaven, Allah will take the Sunni Muslims to Heaven, God, Chirst and the Holy Spirit will lead Christians to Heaven. Ahura Mazda will lead Zorastrians to Heaven. Bhagwaan will lead Hindus to heaven (and i inclue Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs here), Zeus will lead the Greeks to Heaven, Odin will take the Norwegians to Heaven and anyone that i have missed, their Supreme Powers will take them to Heaven. Do you understand what im saying? What i am saying is that higher power that a particular person believes in, will ensure that that person, assuming that they have led a good life, will take them to heaven.

Wow ! that’s a very kind thought you have. I appreciate it. If I can say, this is your personal POV and does not represent abde scholars preachings to the masses. Which is under discussion here. Present your personal POV to abde scholars and you would be debunked for your thoughts, So your POVs are not in sync with bohra philosophies.

The Pope and the Dalai Lama are not doing anything to spread Christianity or Buddhism! Why? Is it maybe because the roles of a Pontiff have, over the passage of time, changed?

Who told you other religions are not doing anything to spread their faith or belief, Christians are still active in proselytizing their faith, they have missionaries in various countries, majority of Christians are open to invite people to their faith and embrace them with open arms without restrictive / opressive covenants. Infact other than Bohra faith and Hinduism (prevailing caste system), other faiths are quiet open to embrace people into their faith, without suppressing freedom and independence.

There is no era of human existence, where word of god can / shall be stopped from spreading.

And when the Dai says that those who do not believe in the Imam will go to hell, it is directed for the Bohra community. Our Dai knows that the God of other people are there too look after them. His role is to look after us and He need not bother about other communities and religons

OMG ! that’s is such a cute thought you have presented. Please substantiate your POV with what is preached in the community, the “Ola Musalmaan” the, “Pela Gair Mumin” concept is a main USP to unite bohra into believing as true occupants of heaven. Where as others are doomed to hell because they did not believe in DB Dai. Schism is promoted to such extent that, even non-bohra Shia belief is debunked and are condemned.

Apologies to Humsafar, but he is not presenting his POV. He is just agreeing to our demands because he wants this topic to end . Besides, do you see anyone else agreeing to him? No!!! Besides, you have answered your own query "Not many officially affiliated progressive members came forward to present their views". So, we are within our rights to reject it.

Gosh ! more than 10 pages of discussion on this topic, responses are given, no one on this forum is a representative authority to finalise a process or person to verify Imam on behalf of communities, Also it has been extensively discussed that, A true Imam does not need to be verified, he would declare his authority by virtue of his conduct and will of Allah.

People from all sides of the argument can only present their view from their perception of learning and orientation.

Also, "no Abdes scholar is presenting their POVs generalizing their manipulative philosophy over entire bohra community". You are completely wrong about this. They are stating a fact. And i am sure that all Dai believing Bohras accept it. And no reformist ever says that his POV is the opinion of the community, they have always said it is their own so there is no chance of us "dancing in disgust and rejecting it"

Again, there is a generalizaton on perception. We quote “ALL” bohras believe what dai will say is more out of social conditioning, orientation and convenience. Can we claim “ALL” bohras have verified by independent judgement and agreed to believe ?

Sorry, you lost me there. I accept the first part of the statement. it baffles me too that how come not many from the reformist camp are coming forward. But what did you mean by "reasons could be simple as no access to net"? did you mean people outside this forum? Lets leave them aside and first ask people on this forum to contribute

Good one ! I second you on that, more observant members shall take part in discussion.

Haa Haa Haa, good try. Fact is that the reformist community on this forum outnumber us maybe 5 to 1. Yes, no doubt that there is a latent frustration somewhere with the Kothar but that does not mean we are sitting quietly. we are getting up and questioning and saying no. The last thing i am is a "scheming abde salesmen of Kothari Inc" but i still will disagree with you.

It would be unfair to make this generalization without proper survey or statistics. However one can see there is a fair number of debaters from all sides of the argument.

MN !! Please don’t take my posts as a personal attack on your personality, you are by self-confession not a Kothari representative. So you can safely ignore such titles..

[mustafanalwalla]

I would beg to differ with you on the fact that we are not answering an "uncomfortable question". I say that the reverse is true. It is people from the refromist side who are dodging the question by derailing it. Also, if some one is propagating his faith with the same vehemence as another is trying to denounce it, this does not make him a "salesman". This choice of words was in very poor taste

Can you / abde scholars / Kothari defenders express your POV as representation from office holders of the bohra community answer following questions :

• Why accountability of funds are not presented openly in the community ?
• How does accountability of funds undermine authority of sayedna saheb’s position ?
• Why does seeking accountability of funds considered as an accusation ?
• Why is mission of spreading Islam stopped during time of Imam-in-seclusion ?
• What are the puntive measures taken to bring justice against embezzlers and breach of trust by Kothari office holders ?

I cant. i dont claim to be either an Abde scholar or a Kothari defender But the thing is that these questions have no right to be here in the first place. Maybe thats why you are being ignored.
Word salesman here refers to promoting oppressive and manipulative policies to milk commoners abdes of their wealth by playing with emotional sentiments of bohras.

I think this is wrong. what we are saying is that our Dai will verify that this Imam is the true one. It is being misconstrued as "Our Dai will point out to us that there is the true Imam". There is a vast, VAST difference between the 2. Progticide, Profastian, Adam, please correct me if im wrong

MN ! you amuse me, with your logic.
Well, im glad i made your day. But care to tell me what is so amusing?

Arre! What is wrong in asking questions? Are the reformists the only ones who have a right to ask questions? And by the way, these questions are absolutely relevant and pertinent to Islam and the Dawoodi Bohra philosophy! Yes, we agree that the Imam will be torch bearer of deen, who is representative of Allah, intelligent, wise and just. but does that mean that our Dai cannot verify Him to be the true Imam? Assume that you say that it is not required. Ok, its not, but even then, whats wrong if our Dai does it? And by the way, we are thumping our philosophy that our Dai will verify for us that this is the True Imam but we are not "oppressing" you into accepting our judgement. We are asking a simple question that for us, our Dai will verify. Who will step forth from the Reformist camp? If more than 1 person steps forth and asusming that they have differing viewpoints, then whose will you accept? Or will they reach at a consensus within themselves? Are we wrong in asking questions and demanding answers? NO. The reformists do it all the time!

MN ! A true Imam will remain a true Imam, a Dai shall acknowledge a true Imam and a bohra will gladly believe acknowledgement of Imam by dai. For rest of non-bohra who doesn’t have dai, wil eventually have True Imam to guide them. So why is abde scholars drumbeating to know who and how will non bohra identify true Imam. As true Imam will comeforth and declare his imamate. Do I miss something here ?
YES, YOU MISSED THE WHOLE POINT HERE BY A MILE AND A HALF. A non-Bohra will not need the Dai to verify the Imam because they do not believe in the office of a Dai. So why are Abde scholars drumbeating to know how will non-Bohra's identify the Imam? Who cares how the non-Bohra's will identify the Imam. They want to know how the reformists will identify the Imam! Duh!!! This site is called dawoodi-bohra,com, not sunnichat.com or shiachat.com..... which means..... that this question is aimed to Dawoodi Bohras.

Lets be clear when we say Dai will verify True Imam, verification is a process of authentication, result can be positive or negative. So a subordinate appointed agent of Imam can verify his own master ? Help me understand (please don’t advise me to go to sabaks, it’s a cop-out I know). How can i advise you to go to sabaks when i dont attend them myself? When one says, “Dai will Verify True Imam” how would he verify true Imam, what are the process, hints, test, signs, presentation Our Dai is sufficiently qualified to decide that for us. You dont ask an examiner what hints, tests, signs, presentations etc they follow before marking an answer as right or wrong, or do you??? ? I think you asked a similar question to reformist camp. Not just me, but a whole lot of other people too. And we are still awaiting answers A major response from Abde scholars is “Dai’s word are enough proof to verify a True Imam” So it’s an acknowledgement not a verification (as I understand). Thats correct, it is an acknowledgement. But it might also be a verification, depending on who is making the claim. HYPOTHETICALLY, I or anyone from this forum can stand up tomorrow and claim to be the Imam. The Dai may acknowledge our claim to the Imamate, but then, He also has the power to verify our claim. Now do you UNDERSTAND why i said that they are 2 entirely different things?????

I have said this once before. Let me say it again. Allah, Our Imam and our Dai will take us to heaven. Allah, their Imam and thier Dai will take outher Bohra sects to Heaven, Allah will take the Sunni Muslims to Heaven, God, Chirst and the Holy Spirit will lead Christians to Heaven. Ahura Mazda will lead Zorastrians to Heaven. Bhagwaan will lead Hindus to heaven (and i inclue Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs here), Zeus will lead the Greeks to Heaven, Odin will take the Norwegians to Heaven and anyone that i have missed, their Supreme Powers will take them to Heaven. Do you understand what im saying? What i am saying is that higher power that a particular person believes in, will ensure that that person, assuming that they have led a good life, will take them to heaven.

Wow ! that’s a very kind thought you have. I appreciate it. If I can say, this is your personal POV and does not represent abde scholars preachings to the masses. Which is under discussion here. Present your personal POV to abde scholars and you would be debunked for your thoughts, So your POVs are not in sync with bohra philosophies. Who knows, i might be in sync, for all you know

The Pope and the Dalai Lama are not doing anything to spread Christianity or Buddhism! Why? Is it maybe because the roles of a Pontiff have, over the passage of time, changed?

Who told you other religions are not doing anything to spread their faith or belief, Christians are still active in proselytizing their faith, they have missionaries in various countries, majority of Christians are open to invite people to their faith and embrace them with open arms without restrictive / opressive covenants. Infact other than Bohra faith and Hinduism (prevailing caste system), other faiths are quiet open to embrace people into their faith, without suppressing freedom and independence. You have digressed from the topic. We are talking about inviting people to join the faith, you have gone of tangentially to how open other religions are to inviting people. Stick to the topic. Dont derail it. Coming back to your question, missionaries, USED to proselytize people into their faith, but that was a long, long time ago.

There is no era of human existence, where word of god can / shall be stopped from spreading.

And when the Dai says that those who do not believe in the Imam will go to hell, it is directed for the Bohra community. Our Dai knows that the God of other people are there too look after them. His role is to look after us and He need not bother about other communities and religons

OMG ! that’s is such a cute thought you have presented. Please substantiate your POV with what is preached in the community, the “Ola Musalmaan” the, “Pela Gair Mumin” concept is a main USP to unite bohra into believing as true occupants of heaven. Where as others are doomed to hell because they did not believe in DB Dai. Schism is promoted to such extent that, even non-bohra Shia belief is debunked and are condemned. Has it been said that they will go to hell? Show me when and where. Dont do a cop-out and tell me to listen more closely to vaaz or you heard some Aamil say it, because i am wide awake and i have never heard it being mentioned. Infact i first heard it mentioned here. Yes, there was the infamous Bohra-Sunni riots, and it was unfortunate but remember, the reasons for that were different, not that non-Bohras will go to hell

Apologies to Humsafar, but he is not presenting his POV. He is just agreeing to our demands because he wants this topic to end . Besides, do you see anyone else agreeing to him? No!!! Besides, you have answered your own query "Not many officially affiliated progressive members came forward to present their views". So, we are within our rights to reject it.

Gosh ! more than 10 pages of discussion on this topic, responses are given, no one on this forum is a representative authority to finalise a process or person to verify Imam on behalf of communities, Also it has been extensively discussed that, A true Imam does not need to be verified, he would declare his authority by virtue of his conduct and will of Allah. EXACTLY, no one from the reformist camp is suitably qualified to answer that. But we all agree as one that our Dai is. By the logic in the last line then, do Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela or Dr. Ravilla Govindappa Venkataswamy or Abdul Sattar Edhi qualify to be the Imam? I have asked this question earlier too, but did not get an answer then either

People from all sides of the argument can only present their view from their perception of learning and orientation.

Also, "no Abdes scholar is presenting their POVs generalizing their manipulative philosophy over entire bohra community". You are completely wrong about this. They are stating a fact. And i am sure that all Dai believing Bohras accept it. And no reformist ever says that his POV is the opinion of the community, they have always said it is their own so there is no chance of us "dancing in disgust and rejecting it"

Again, there is a generalizaton on perception. We quote “ALL” bohras believe what dai will say is more out of social conditioning, orientation and convenience. Can we claim “ALL” bohras have verified by independent judgement and agreed to believe ? YES.

Sorry, you lost me there. I accept the first part of the statement. it baffles me too that how come not many from the reformist camp are coming forward. But what did you mean by "reasons could be simple as no access to net"? did you mean people outside this forum? Lets leave them aside and first ask people on this forum to contribute

Good one ! I second you on that, more observant members shall take part in discussion.

Haa Haa Haa, good try. Fact is that the reformist community on this forum outnumber us maybe 5 to 1. Yes, no doubt that there is a latent frustration somewhere with the Kothar but that does not mean we are sitting quietly. we are getting up and questioning and saying no. The last thing i am is a "scheming abde salesmen of Kothari Inc" but i still will disagree with you.

It would be unfair to make this generalization without proper survey or statistics. However one can see there is a fair number of debaters from all sides of the argument.

MN !! Please don’t take my posts as a personal attack on your personality, you are by self-confession not a Kothari representative. So you can safely ignore such titles.. Arre no way re dude. we are outnumbered. And the "personal affront" was tongue in cheek

[Fateh]

Hi
I m expressing my POV from a simple common sense thought which comes to my mind. I believe in concept of Imamate, a leader who is learned, wise and just by blessing of Allah. Entire world lives in some sort of multiple organizations. Wherever we go, we come across team / group / committee / associations / society formations with a basic structure of leadership and followers. It’s an instinctive organization of people and mutual agreements to abide by common code of conduct to fulfil set objectives and be a productive member to the cause.

Even prophet Muhammad followed commandments of Allah compiled in a book, and there after any person till today has to learn and preach from the common source which is Quran, believed to be word of Allah. So in true sense Imam is actually deriving his knowledge / power or authority to lead from Quran ( A book). When one claims to follow / believe in Imam, that is actually following words of Quran conveyed by Imam.
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Time and again, scheming abde scholarly salesmen is demanding an explanation of verifying Imam ! even though people from all sides of the argument have presented their POVs. But as we know, they are just stuck to one drumbeat as they cant answer other uncomfortable questions. I would beg to differ with you on the fact that we are not answering an "uncomfortable question". I say that the reverse is true. It is people from the refromist side who are dodging the question by derailing it. Also, if some one is propagating his faith with the same vehemence as another is trying to denounce it, this does not make him a "salesman". This choice of words was in very poor taste

DB abdes first elevate Imam to be the higher authority then a Dai and then makes the Imam identity dependent on recognition from Dai himself. This manipulative circular argument is very demeaning for an Imam which is much awaited to be revealed. Emphasis on verification of Imam makes position of Imam weak and susceptible. For DBs only Dai can identify a true Imam, and whoever Dai points out to be a true Imam will be the true Imam as believed by DBs. So the whole judgement remains on Dai whereas an Imam can only wait to authenticate his position by his subordinate. [color=#0000FF]I think this is wrong. what we are saying is that our Dai will verify that this Imam is the true one. It is being misconstrued as "Our Dai will point out to us that there is the true Imam". There is a vast, VAST difference between the 2. Progticide, Profastian, Adam, please correct me if im wrong
[/color]
I see a ironical situation here. Few intellectual thinker presented their views, that a true Imam who is a real torch bearer of deen, who is representative of Allah, intelligent, wise and just, does not need verification from anyone. Morever a Dai along with other followers can acknowledge his identity. Whereas DBs on this forum are hell bent on cornering “proggies” to establish a process or identify a person who will indentify a true Imam, thumping down their own oppressive philosophy that only thier Dai can identity a true Imam. Arre! What is wrong in asking questions? Are the reformists the only ones who have a right to ask questions? And by the way, these questions are absolutely relevant and pertinent to Islam and the Dawoodi Bohra philosophy! Yes, we agree that the Imam will be torch bearer of deen, who is representative of Allah, intelligent, wise and just. but does that mean that our Dai cannot verify Him to be the true Imam? Assume that you say that it is not required. Ok, its not, but even then, whats wrong if our Dai does it? And by the way, we are thumping our philosophy that our Dai will verify for us that this is the True Imam but we are not "oppressing" you into accepting our judgement. We are asking a simple question that for us, our Dai will verify. Who will step forth from the Reformist camp? If more than 1 person steps forth and asusming that they have differing viewpoints, then whose will you accept? Or will they reach at a consensus within themselves? Are we wrong in asking questions and demanding answers? NO. The reformists do it all the time!

Another selfish and vague argument presented by orthodox DB abdes on this forum is, Their Dai is only their Dai, Imam identified by Dai is only their Imam and only they will be lead to heaven and not others who don’t believe in Dai and Imam. At the same time, Dai will not undertake any mission to spread Islam and make people aware to believe in Imam-in-seclusion. At the same time, thump down a decree that one who does not believe in Imam will go to hell. Then they will counter argue their philosophy that only an Imam-in-presence can conduct / lead mission of spreading islam, now its more than 800 years Imam-in-Seclusion and there is no hint/sign/prediction/belief on revelation of Imam. Some believe that Imam will appear on day of Qayamat, which is to be a day of judgement, on which the earlier decree will be considered to allocate people to heaven and hell. So that leaves no chance for non bohras to know or learn about such decree present in first place, eventually they would be doomed to hell, while bohras who were blessed by luck as being born in the bohra community would parade to heaven in celebration. I have said this once before. Let me say it again. Allah, Our Imam and our Dai will take us to heaven. Allah, their Imam and thier Dai will take outher Bohra sects to Heaven, Allah will take the Sunni Muslims to Heaven, God, Chirst and the Holy Spirit will lead Christians to Heaven. Ahura Mazda will lead Zorastrians to Heaven. Bhagwaan will lead Hindus to heaven (and i inclue Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs here), Zeus will lead the Greeks to Heaven, Odin will take the Norwegians to Heaven and anyone that i have missed, their Supreme Powers will take them to Heaven. Do you understand what im saying? What i am saying is that higher power that a particular person believes in, will ensure that that person, assuming that they have led a good life, will take them to heaven.
The Pope and the Dalai Lama are not doing anything to spread Christianity or Buddhism! Why? Is it maybe because the roles of a Pontiff have, over the passage of time, changed?
And when the Dai says that those who do not believe in the Imam will go to hell, it is directed for the Bohra community. Our Dai knows that the God of other people are there too look after them. His role is to look after us and He need not bother about other communities and religons

Another observation I got to learn by stubborn demands of abdes to learn about progressive views on verifying of Imam. Not many officially affiliated progressive members came forward to present their views, other than “Humsafar”. Which abdes conveniently reject it as an isolated POV. Abdes scholars can present their POVs generalizing their manipulative philosophy over entire bohra community, but if someone else did so, they will dance in disgust and reject it.
Apologies to Humsafar, but he is not presenting his POV. He is just agreeing to our demands because he wants this topic to end . Besides, do you see anyone else agreeing to him? No!!! Besides, you have answered your own query "Not many officially affiliated progressive members came forward to present their views". So, we are within our rights to reject it.
Also, "no Abdes scholar is presenting their POVs generalizing their manipulative philosophy over entire bohra community". You are completely wrong about this. They are stating a fact. And i am sure that all Dai believing Bohras accept it. And no reformist ever says that his POV is the opinion of the community, they have always said it is their own so there is no chance of us "dancing in disgust and rejecting it"

However we realized that, there are not many progressive members commenting on this forum, people commenting are orthodox bohras, abde scholars, non bohras muslims. Its surprising that majority of progressive members are not part of their own initiative to express their concern, this can be a a topic of discussion on another thread, reasons could be simple as no access to net to disinterest in community affairs, which is a common reason in progressive as well as orthodox bohra communities.
Sorry, you lost me there. I accept the first part of the statement. it baffles me too that how come not many from the reformist camp are coming forward. But what did you mean by "reasons could be simple as no access to net"? did you mean people outside this forum? Lets leave them aside and first ask people on this forum to contribute

If there are many orthodox bohras coming to this thread, and they are in majority over progressives, then It shows a latent frustration of orthodox bohra commoners with Kothari leadership. Even though scheming abde salesmen of Kothari Inc on this forum would deny such pockets of frustration in bohra community and promote only goody-goody picture of shallow showmanship by pushing their gloated POVs to plant bandwagon effect of walayat and feeling of supremacy to divert uncomfortable questions and suppress dissent. Haa Haa Haa, good try. Fact is that the reformist community on this forum outnumber us maybe 5 to 1. Yes, no doubt that there is a latent frustration somewhere with the Kothar but that does not mean we are sitting quietly. we are getting up and questioning and saying no. The last thing i am is a "scheming abde salesmen of Kothari Inc" but i still will disagree with you.

]I think this is wrong. what we are saying is that our Dai will verify that this Imam is the true one. It is being misconstrued as "Our Dai will point out to us that there is the true Imam". There is a vast, VAST difference between the 2. Progticide, Profastian, Adam, please correct me if im wrong[/color]

Salam Bhai mn,as per your pov true imam will not depends on Dai of any bohara sect.So it may be happen true imam reappear & may be refuse that no dai of any sect of bohara are true dai then?Bcoz imam is not depends on any one to be identify himself.Do you get my point?

[mustafanalwalla]

I understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to say.

the simplest thing for me to say is that the Imam will say that all Dai's except ours, are fake and only our Dai is the true one. And i could hazard a risk and say it too, as this site is for Dawoodi Bohras, but i would rather not make that suggestion.

I will, however, say that in that eventuality, remote as it may be, i do not have an answer to that question. but what i can assure you is that the question would be disregarded in the very first place, by any Dawoodi Bohra as we believe that our Dai can never be wrong.

my words may seem convuluted, and i apologise for that but this question is either extremely tricky for someones whose faith is not set in stone yet, or extremely easy for someones who's is. For the former, people like me, we would prefer to say "i dont have an answer". for the latter, their responce is above.

[SBM]

I understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to say.
, by any Dawoodi Bohra as we believe that our Dai can never be wrong.
my words may seem convuluted, and i apologise for that but this question is either extremely tricky for someones whose faith is not set in stone yet, or extremely easy for someones who's is. For the former, people like me, we would prefer to say "i dont have an answer". for the latter, their responce is above.

In another post you said that you have questions about Dai's infallibility and here you say dai can never be wrong so which one is he a fallible or infallible You are a totally confused Abde Regressive

[humanbeing]

I cant. i dont claim to be either an Abde scholar or a Kothari defender But the thing is that these questions have no right to be here in the first place. Maybe thats why you are being ignored.

I m not asking this question on this thread, I have been asking these questions on this forum. And please don’t justify which question needs to be asked on which thread, people are throwing questions here and there. There is no thread on this forum which has stuck to the topic. Abdes are no innocent in this regard.

Why my questions are ignored, people know in their heart.

Well, im glad i made your day. But care to tell me what is so amusing?

I enjoy reading your responses.

YES, YOU MISSED THE WHOLE POINT HERE BY A MILE AND A HALF. A non-Bohra will not need the Dai to verify the Imam because they do not believe in the office of a Dai. So why are Abde scholars drumbeating to know how will non-Bohra's identify the Imam? Who cares how the non-Bohra's will identify the Imam. They want to know how the reformists will identify the Imam! Duh!!! This site is called dawoodi-bohra,com, not sunnichat.com or shiachat.com..... which means..... that this question is aimed to Dawoodi Bohras.

Reformist Dawoodi Bohras said, they would accept Imam which Dai identifies! Even the official position of reformist Association says, they recognize and respect Position of Dai (seat of Dai), so when a reformist says he would accept the dai’s acknowledgement of Imam, abdes don’t want to believe and keep drumbeating same question. Chaahte kyaa ho yaar !! Bache ki jaan loge !

The concept of Dai does not start and remain limited to 51st and 52nd dai, as bohra philosophy states, its an ongoing “Silsila” Dai after Dai and Imam after Imam will keep coming. Who knows which number Dai will actually reveal / verify / acknowledge the True Imam of that Zamaan.

No doubt connection between Dai and Imam is much stronger then that of with commoners, so it’s a believable fact that, Dai will be introducing Imam to believers. I think we can use one more word which sounds more appropriate then verification or acknowledgement. A Dai introduces Imam to the believers. Whereas an Imam can verify his identity, stature and existence by his own virtue, conduct and authority.

Our Dai is sufficiently qualified to decide that for us. You dont ask an examiner what hints, tests, signs, presentations etc they follow before marking an answer as right or wrong, or do you???

I shall quote your favourite line : Don’t compare apples to oranges !!

However, an Examiner has set guidelines and answers paper to refer from to judge the answers and mark them right or wrong. They don’t mark answers as per their whims and fancy.

Who knows, i might be in sync, for all you know

Fine ! can you provide one reference from this forum, any abde scholar who supports your POV in this regard. You can ask your scholar buddies to support your opinon.

You have digressed from the topic. We are talking about inviting people to join the faith, you have gone of tangentially to how open other religions are to inviting people. Stick to the topic. Dont derail it. Coming back to your question, missionaries, USED to proselytize people into their faith, but that was a long, long time ago.

MN, God Bless you !! I m sorry !! you win ! I cant fight your intellect.

Has it been said that they will go to hell? Show me when and where. Dont do a cop-out and tell me to listen more closely to vaaz or you heard some Aamil say it, because i am wide awake and i have never heard it being mentioned. Infact i first heard it mentioned here. Yes, there was the infamous Bohra-Sunni riots, and it was unfortunate but remember, the reasons for that were different, not that non-Bohras will go to hell

I m sorry to repeat, but to substantiate what I have mentioned, you need to listen to waaz and start attending sabaks. You will discover many theories of segregation, schism and superiority of bohra over non bohras with conclusion that such non bohras (uninformed non believers without choice branded into non bohras) would be doomed to hell.. Also you will be brain-washed with distinct details on differences between bohra and non bohra. You may walk out of a sabak / waaz full of pride having being elevated in human hierarchy. You can look for common words such as .. “APNE” and “OLA”

[porus]

Imam al-Tayyib, in all probability, was killed in his infancy by his father's enemies. Thus, he has no progeny. No Imam is coming and hence the question of his verification does not arise.

No Dai al-Mutlaq has ever been appointed by any Imam because the first Dai al-Mutlaq was appointed by Hurrat al-Malika.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

Since the Imam did not appoint Dai al-Mutlaq, he will have to consider whether the latter is his 'true' follower. If the Imam is being presented by the Dail al-Mutlaq as 'aalim al-ghayb' and 'to whom sajda is wajib', he is not going to be much impressed by him.

So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue, especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than Allah.

[SBM]

Brother Porus
Since Adam has joined Imam in Satr due to his cowardice (adam and not Imam) of not answering my questions could you be kind enough to reply which were regarding the progeny of current dai and when did the Wadhawo Rasm started. How does Bharmal and Tarmal hindu rajas who became Dai justifies the progeny of current Dai.

[SBM]

Brother Porus
I read your post about Imam and his progeny from Imam Tayyab so let me rephrase my question since Adam is still in SATR
Is current Dai from the Progeny of Hurut al Maleka?

[Fateh]

I understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to say.

the simplest thing for me to say is that the Imam will say that all Dai's except ours, are fake and only our Dai is the true one. And i could hazard a risk and say it too, as this site is for Dawoodi Bohras, but i would rather not make that suggestion.

I will, however, say that in that eventuality, remote as it may be, i do not have an answer to that question. but what i can assure you is that the question would be disregarded in the very first place, by any Dawoodi Bohra as we believe that our Dai can never be wrong.

my words may seem convuluted, and i apologise for that but this question is either extremely tricky for someones whose faith is not set in stone yet, or extremely easy for someones who's is. For the former, people like me, we would prefer to say "i dont have an answer". for the latter, their responce is above.

Salam Mustafabhai, no you do not understand from where i am coming & what i am trying to say, please do not misjudge me from my single question.Do not try to escape from your own soul ,dai is not our final ultimate goal our final goal is to achieve ALLAH. Its your faith that only our dai is true other dais are fake same thing will not true for others sects of bohara.This is one possibility,my question is may be other possibility .In my pov imam will choose who is rightful dai till then follow as per your faith.

[mustafanalwalla]

I understand where you are coming from and what you are trying to say.

the simplest thing for me to say is that the Imam will say that all Dai's except ours, are fake and only our Dai is the true one. And i could hazard a risk and say it too, as this site is for Dawoodi Bohras, but i would rather not make that suggestion.

I will, however, say that in that eventuality, remote as it may be, i do not have an answer to that question. but what i can assure you is that the question would be disregarded in the very first place, by any Dawoodi Bohra as we believe that our Dai can never be wrong.

my words may seem convuluted, and i apologise for that but this question is either extremely tricky for someones whose faith is not set in stone yet, or extremely easy for someones who's is. For the former, people like me, we would prefer to say "i dont have an answer". for the latter, their responce is above.

Salam Mustafabhai, no you do not understand from where i am coming & what i am trying to say, please do not misjudge me from my single question.Do not try to escape from your own soul ,dai is not our final ultimate goal our final goal is to achieve ALLAH. Its your faith that only our dai is true other dais are fake same thing will not true for others sects of bohara.This is one possibility,my question is may be other possibility .In my pov imam will choose who is rightful dai till then follow as per your faith.

Bhai, i think you misunderstood the tone of my voice. What i meant to say actually, is that i understand what you are trying to say.

My apologies, i should have worded it carefully, sorry for the misunderstanding. Will word my drafts more carefully.

And yes, i agree completely with you that Allah is the final be all and end all, our Dai is the one to show us the path to get there.

Also, i think you misunderstood me on the second point too, i have said that it is my faith that lead me to say that our Dai is the true one, but i have never ever said that the other Dai's are fake. They are just as beloved to them as our is to us.

[mustafanalwalla]

I cant. i dont claim to be either an Abde scholar or a Kothari defender But the thing is that these questions have no right to be here in the first place. Maybe thats why you are being ignored.

I m not asking this question on this thread, I have been asking these questions on this forum. And please don’t justify which question needs to be asked on which thread, people are throwing questions here and there. There is no thread on this forum which has stuck to the topic. Abdes are no innocent in this regard. You are right about this. So i will leave this to be answered by people better qualified than me

Why my questions are ignored, people know in their heart.

Well, im glad i made your day. But care to tell me what is so amusing?

I enjoy reading your responses. Thank you. im glad i make you happy. Now exactly which responce is it that amuses you again?

YES, YOU MISSED THE WHOLE POINT HERE BY A MILE AND A HALF. A non-Bohra will not need the Dai to verify the Imam because they do not believe in the office of a Dai. So why are Abde scholars drumbeating to know how will non-Bohra's identify the Imam? Who cares how the non-Bohra's will identify the Imam. They want to know how the reformists will identify the Imam! Duh!!! This site is called dawoodi-bohra,com, not sunnichat.com or shiachat.com..... which means..... that this question is aimed to Dawoodi Bohras.

Reformist Dawoodi Bohras said, they would accept Imam which Dai identifies! Even the official position of reformist Association says, they recognize and respect Position of Dai (seat of Dai), OK, this i can tell you with full certainity, is HOGWASH. The current set of reformists have completely written of the Dai and His position. The earlier generation of reformists might have been clear in their agendas of what they accept and what they dont, but unfortunately, this site is more about abde-bashing and Dai abusing than relevant discussion. And i dont mean that everyone here falls in this bracket, but a good 50% certainly do. so when a The key word here is "A". One single reformist, that too only because he is groing tired of this topic. Humsafar, no offence meant, i quite enjoy your stand, really. reformist says he would accept the dai’s acknowledgement of Imam, abdes don’t want to believe and keep drumbeating same question. Chaahte kyaa ho yaar !! Bache ki jaan loge !

The concept of Dai does not start and remain limited to 51st and 52nd dai, as bohra philosophy states, its an ongoing “Silsila” Dai after Dai and Imam after Imam will keep coming. Who knows which number Dai will actually reveal / verify / acknowledge the True Imam of that Zamaan. Absolutely, and i dont think anyone here claims that Syedna Mohammad Burhannudin or Mauali Muffadal Bhai Saheb will acknowledge the true Imam. It could be the 55th, or 60th for all you know

No doubt connection between Dai and Imam is much stronger then that of with commoners, so it’s a believable fact that, Dai will be introducing Imam to believers. I think we can use one more word which sounds more appropriate then verification or acknowledgement. A Dai introduces Imam to the believers. Whereas an Imam can verify his identity, stature and existence by his own virtue, conduct and authority. Yeah. i like what you say. I accept it

Our Dai is sufficiently qualified to decide that for us. You dont ask an examiner what hints, tests, signs, presentations etc they follow before marking an answer as right or wrong, or do you???

I shall quote your favourite line : Don’t compare apples to oranges !! Apples to pineapples buddy, apples to pineapples And besides, what point are you making? forgive me but i missed it. The analogy is very simple. Just as you dont ask a teacher how they know if an answer is correct, you assume they know if it is. Same here with the Dai. So is there something that you are trying to prove that i am missing???

However, an Examiner has set guidelines and answers paper to refer from to judge the answers and mark them right or wrong. They don’t mark answers as per their whims and fancy. Absolutely. And I'm sure our Dai has the guidelines, besides his IlmZ

Who knows, i might be in sync, for all you know

Fine ! can you provide one reference from this forum, any abde scholar who supports your POV in this regard. You can ask your scholar buddies to support your opinon. My friend, it was a hypothetical statement. Which is why, "i might be in sync"

You have digressed from the topic. We are talking about inviting people to join the faith, you have gone of tangentially to how open other religions are to inviting people. Stick to the topic. Dont derail it. Coming back to your question, missionaries, USED to proselytize people into their faith, but that was a long, long time ago.

MN, God Bless you !! I m sorry !! you win ! I cant fight your intellect. Sorry, didnt mean to offend you, but it was true. You did kind of step into another realm. Just wanted to nudge you back. Didnt mean to hurt you

Has it been said that they will go to hell? Show me when and where. Dont do a cop-out and tell me to listen more closely to vaaz or you heard some Aamil say it, because i am wide awake and i have never heard it being mentioned. Infact i first heard it mentioned here. Yes, there was the infamous Bohra-Sunni riots, and it was unfortunate but remember, the reasons for that were different, not that non-Bohras will go to hell

I m sorry to repeat, but to substantiate what I have mentioned, you need to listen to waaz and start attending sabaks. You will discover many theories of segregation, schism and superiority of bohra over non bohras with conclusion that such non bohras (uninformed non believers without choice branded into non bohras) would be doomed to hell.. Also you will be brain-washed with distinct details on differences between bohra and non bohra. You may walk out of a sabak / waaz full of pride having being elevated in human hierarchy. You can look for common words such as .. “APNE” and “OLA” See, this is exactly what i said. Dont tell me to attend a Sabak or listen more closely to a waaz. Show me the proof.

[progticide]

Imam al-Tayyib, in all probability, was killed in his infancy by his father's enemies. Thus, he has no progeny. No Imam is coming and hence the question of his verification does not arise.

Prof. Poo (Porus), with this statement you have openly declared to everyone especially the progressives that you have nothing more to do with DB faith. Progressives, remember my earlier post on this thread where I had clearly mentioned about Porus attempting to legitimize Aga Khan's Imamate and his acceptance of Nizari Ismaili faith. Still, you wanna consider Porus as one of yours is entirely your choice, but that would clearly raise doubts about your following of the DB faith too. Now I am waiting for a progressive like Doctor Mubarak to take a stand on behalf of those progressives still professing to be following DB faith to question Porus on what he has written above and whether Doctor Mubarak considers Porus to be part of the progressive community anymore. Lets see if the progressives defend DB beliefs that Porus has now openly challenged.

No Dai al-Mutlaq has ever been appointed by any Imam because the first Dai al-Mutlaq was appointed by Hurrat al-Malika.

Prof. Poo, you forgot to mention about the Imam who instructed Maulatena Hurrat al Maleka to appoint the Dai-e-Mutlaq. So the Dai-e-Mutlaq's office was appointed on the explicit instruction and orders of Imam Aamir (although the process itself started from the time of Imam Mustansir Billah). Maulatena Hurrut al Maleka only executed the orders from the Imam. So you would now rather care to keep you crappy knowledge with you and not confuse the progressives anymore. You and your friends have led them astray for long enough. Time's up now.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

Prof. Poo, I guess this was told to you by the Aga Khan through Ilham in the night while you were answering the nature's call. Just two lines above you have written that no imam is coming and therefore no question of verification. And now just two sentences later you are making a definitive judgement that the Imam would verify the Dai and not other way around. You are insane. What do you have to say on this Doctor Mubarak or are you still going to remain silent on this and keep cleaning Porus' poo? Hussain_KSA, see this is the person whom you were so happy sending across the Fatimi literature. See for yourself whom you were dealing with all this while. The one who you thought was supporting your cause is actually a termite eating into your faith from inside and hollowing it to the extent that now he is openly challenging the articles of DB faith that you and your forefathers followed.

Since the Imam did not appoint Dai al-Mutlaq, he will have to consider whether the latter is his 'true' follower. If the Imam is being presented by the Dail al-Mutlaq as 'aalim al-ghayb' and 'to whom sajda is wajib', he is not going to be much impressed by him.

This is for you Doctor Mubarak. What Porus is suggesting is that the 46 DB Dais that you hold your faith in atleast were appointed without Imam's authority. Make the progressive stand clear Doctor.

So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue, especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than Allah.

I guess, after trying to delegitimize the hitherto progressive faith in DB beliefs, Porus is now referring to the remaining progressives still professing to follow DB faith as mushriks.

[anajmi]

And now just two sentences later you are making a definitive judgement that the Imam would verify the Dai and not other way around.

This is what porus has written.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

So, it is not a definitive statement but conditional.

[porus]

Brother Porus
I read your post about Imam and his progeny from Imam Tayyab so let me rephrase my question....
Is current Dai from the Progeny of Hurut al Maleka?

The short answer is that the Dai is not from the progeny of Hurrat al-Malika. I am surprised that you even think that. No Bohra will agree with you.

Imam and his family's significance derives from Shia doctrine regarding Imamat. Specifically, Imam must be from the progeny of Imam Husain. Imam Husain's family are referred to Ahl-e-bayt in relation to events of Karbala. This designation has survived to indicate families of all subsequent Imams although it is strictly incorrect according to Quran.

The better term to describe Imams and their families is 'Aal-e-Muhammad'. That is the term Imam Jafar al-Sadiq has used to refer exclusively to Imams according to Daaim al-Islam. That is confirmed by Sayedna's constant reference to himself as 'Mamluk -e-aal-e-Muhammad' meaning 'Servant of Imams'.

There is no parallel significance, at least in dogma, to a Dai al-Mutlaq and his family. However, as we shall see, dogma is being revised to give the the families of the last two Dais a significance equivalent to that given to Imam's families. Thus, increasingly, there is a mention of Bayt-e-Zaini and Qasr-e-Aali in the same breath as Ahl-e-bayt.

Hurrat al-Malika was daughter-in-law of Ali al-Sulayhi, a ruler of Yemen appointed by Imam Mustansir. She became the ruler of Yemen after the death of Ali al-Sulayhi. Neither were related to Imams but they were very loyal to Imamat.

Hurrat al-Malika appointed Dhuaib bin Musa as the first Dai al-Mutlaq when it became clear that the rule of Imam Aamir and his designated heir, Imam al-Tayyib had come to an end. Dhuaib bin Musa was no relation to Imam or Hurrat al-Mulaika.

Dhuaib bin Musa was followed by 3 Dais who were father, son and grandson. They were Ibrahim al-Hamidi, Hatim bin Ibrahim and Ali Shamshuddin. This was the first family of Dais.

The 5th Dai was Ali bin Waleed. The next 18 Dais, including the 5th, were from the family of Ali bin Waleed. This can be considered the second family of Dais.

This brings us to the 24th Dai, Yusuf Najmuddin. He was the first Dai of India following the shift of Daawat from Yemen to India. From then on, Dais came from different families until the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin.

All the Dais since then, with the exception of 46th, who was son-in-law of 45th, are from the family of the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin, the third and final family of Dais. These Dais, especially 51st and 52nd, have elevated themselves to almost divine status. After Tayyib Zainuddin, they call themselves Bayt-e-Zaini. (Because of a large number in Bayt-e-Zaini, 51st Dai distinguished his family by a different name, Qasr-e-Aali.)

So, while none of the Dais and their families are from ahl-e-bayt or from progeny of Hurrat al-Malika (- I don't know where that came from-), I have heard them frequently being referred to as 'spiritual ahl-e-bayt' or 'spiritual descendants of ahl-e-bayt'.

This is a shrewd political attempt to revise dogma to prepare Bohras to accept 'bayt-e-zaini/qasr-e-aali' as a feature of divine providence. This will allow the family to retain absolute power over faith and wealth of Bohras. And you can bet that any Imam, if there is one, initiating his zuhoor will be vehemently resisted and will have his work cut out for him by the third family.

[Muslim First]

And now just two sentences later you are making a definitive judgement that the Imam would verify the Dai and not other way around.

This is what porus has written.

If in an unlikely event that Imam al-Tayyib had survived and an Imam from his progeny is extant, it is the Imam who will verify his Dai and not the other way around.

So, it is not a definitive statement but conditional.

Br anajmi
Do you except this human worshipping Shia to interprete any words correctly?
They read what they want to read, they listen what they want to listen and they have particular biased filter in their sight and in their ear. They will hang on to lies. Half truths and twist truth.
Any way if is fun to be here
Wasalaam and Jumma Mabruk
Happy Zohr-asr prayer to DBs (Only return of their Imam can revive traditional Jumma prayer which will not happen)

[SBM]

Brother Porus
Thank you for a very informative post about Dawat and current Dai
I am still waiting Adam once he makes Zahoor to tell us about Wadhawo Rasm and how did Raja Bharmal and Tarmal came in to picture
How would Adam and his co horts would recognize the True Imam if current Dais are not the true progeny when they say that Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt
I do not know if any of these Abde Regressives will answer but thank you for an informative post.

[fearAllah]

Happy Zohr-asr prayer to DBs

Lol, nice one bro!

[porus]

........... tell us about Wadhawo Rasm and how did Raja Bharmal and Tarmal came in to picture

Wadhawani rasam is a vestige of the Hindu past of the Bohras. It is a modified form of the rasam of Hindu 'Aarti'. In Bohra history, the first Dai sent to India by Imam Mustansir was Dai Maulai Ahmed, who started his daawat in Khambaat by adopting many Hindu customs and learning local language. That may be the reason why this non-Islamic rasam has retained its mark.

Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were twins Ramnath and Roopnath, who were renamed Abdullah and Noordin, respectively. Maulai Ahmed took them to Egypt for further education in missionary activities. With the blessings of Imam Mustansir, Abdullah and Noordin returned to India as Dais.

Dai Abdullah returned to Khambaat and succeeded in converting the first couple known as Kaka Akela and Kaka Akeli. Later he manged to convert a small but significant population of Khambaat. With this success behind him, Abdullah travelled to Patan in around 1100 AD. Patan was ruled by Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh, whose wazeer (prime minister) was called Raja Bharmal and his chief priest was called Raja Tarmal. Dai Abdullah managed to convert both Bharmal and Tarmal, who also convinced Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh to embrace Ismailism.

Raja Bharmal does not feature much in history but Raja Tarmal had a famous son who was named Fakhruddin and who was killed by local bandits in Galiyakot while being engaged in missionary activities. He is known to us as Sayyedi Fakhruddin Shaheed. The latter was killed in 1150 AD. Hurrat al-Malika died in 1130 AD, a few years after establishing the office of Dai al-Mutlaq. Thus all the Dais mentioned above were not Dai al-Mutlaq.

Progeny of Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh is prominently featured in history of Daawat as there have been great Ismaili scholars among them. I am not sure if there has been any Dai al-Mutlaq in his progeny, although that is very likely.

How would Adam and his co horts would recognize the True Imam if current Dais are not the true progeny when they say that Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt.

This question does not make sense. What has progeny of Dai got to do with recognition of Imam?

[progticide]

........... tell us about Wadhawo Rasm and how did Raja Bharmal and Tarmal came in to picture

Wadhawani rasam is a vestige of the Hindu past of the Bohras. It is a modified form of the rasam of Hindu 'Aarti'. In Bohra history, the first Dai sent to India by Imam Mustansir was Dai Maulai Ahmed, who started his daawat in Khambaat by adopting many Hindu customs and learning local language. That may be the reason why this non-Islamic rasam has retained its mark.

Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were twins Ramnath and Roopnath, who were renamed Abdullah and Noordin, respectively. Maulai Ahmed took them to Egypt for further education in missionary activities. With the blessings of Imam Mustansir, Abdullah and Noordin returned to India as Dais.

Dai Abdullah returned to Khambaat and succeeded in converting the first couple known as Kaka Akela and Kaka Akeli. Later he manged to convert a small but significant population of Khambaat. With this success behind him, Abdullah travelled to Patan in around 1100 AD. Patan was ruled by Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh, whose wazeer (prime minister) was called Raja Bharmal and his chief priest was called Raja Tarmal. Dai Abdullah managed to convert both Bharmal and Tarmal, who also convinced Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh to embrace Ismailism.

Raja Bharmal does not feature much in history but Raja Tarmal had a famous son who was named Fakhruddin and who was killed by local bandits in Galiyakot while being engaged in missionary activities. He is known to us as Sayyedi Fakhruddin Shaheed. The latter was killed in 1150 AD. Hurrat al-Malika died in 1130 AD, a few years after establishing the office of Dai al-Mutlaq. Thus all the Dais mentioned above were not Dai al-Mutlaq.

Progeny of Maharaja Sidhraj Jaisinh is prominently featured in history of Daawat as there have been great Ismaili scholars among them. I am not sure if there has been any Dai al-Mutlaq in his progeny, although that is very likely.

How would Adam and his co horts would recognize the True Imam if current Dais are not the true progeny when they say that Imam will be from the progeny of Ahlul Bayt.

This question does not make sense. What has progeny of Dai got to do with recognition of Imam?

Porof. Poo (Porus),
Couple of mistakes you made in the above detailing. Let me correct them.
1. Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were Balamnath (not Ramnath) and Roopnath.
2. Raja Bharmal definitely features in history till date. Raja Bharmal's son was Maulai Yaqub, the second Wali-e-Hind (after Maulai Abdullah). Maulai Ishaq, Maulai Ali and Maulai Hasan Fir who subsequently became Wali-e-Hind one after another were from Maulai Yaqub's progeny.

[progticide]

Dhuaib bin Musa was followed by 3 Dais who were father, son and grandson. They were Ibrahim al-Hamidi, Hatim bin Ibrahim and Ali Shamshuddin. This was the first family of Dais.

The 5th Dai was Ali bin Waleed. The next 18 Dais, including the 5th, were from the family of Ali bin Waleed. This can be considered the second family of Dais.

This brings us to the 24th Dai, Yusuf Najmuddin. He was the first Dai of India following the shift of Daawat from Yemen to India. From then on, Dais came from different families until the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin.

All the Dais since then, with the exception of 46th, who was son-in-law of 45th, are from the family of the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin, the third and final family of Dais.

Prof. Poo (Porus),
Let me suggest some corrections in this post also.
The 5th Dai was Ali bin Waleed. 17 Dais (and not 18 as you said) out of the next 19 Dais in Yemen (including the 5th), were from the family of Ali bin Waleed (means a total of 17 dais from the First 23 dais in Yemen were from Al Waleed family). This can be considered the second family of Dais. The 18th Dai from the Al Waleed family (Syedna Ali Shamshuddin - 30th Dai-e- Mutlaq) was appointed in Yemen much later after the transfer of dawat to India, thereby making the total number of Dais in Yemen as 24.

All the Dais since 45th, with the exception of 46th, who was son-in-law of 45th, are from the family of the 45th Dai, Tayyib Zainuddin, another familial line of Dais . There have been other smaller familial line of dais like that of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed, Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin etc.

So now we know what kind of research scholar you are.

BTW, I am still waiting for Hussain KSA & Doctor Mubarak's response to the nonsense posted by you in your post above. Have Hussain KSA & Doctor Mubarak missed my post above or are they shying away to refute Porus' comments who they had been supporting all this while?

[Adam]

Thank you Progticide for clarifying all the issues.
These statements of course, are the most important directly at the so-called-Proggies :

. What do you have to say on this Doctor Mubarak or are you still going to remain silent on this and keep cleaning Porus' poo? Hussain_KSA, see this is the person whom you were so happy sending across the Fatimi literature. See for yourself whom you were dealing with all this while. The one who you thought was supporting your cause is actually a termite eating into your faith from inside and hollowing it to the extent that now he is openly challenging the articles of DB faith that you and your forefathers followed.

This is for you Doctor Mubarak. What Porus is suggesting is that the 46 DB Dais that you hold your faith in atleast were appointed without Imam's authority. Make the progressive stand clear Doctor.

porus wrote:
So, it is pointless discussing this 'pie-in-the-sky' issue, especially with mushriks who would fall in sujood to any one other than Allah.

I guess, after trying to delegitimize the hitherto progressive faith in DB beliefs, Porus is now referring to the remaining progressives still professing to follow DB faith as mushriks.

Also, thank you Porus for clarifying the questions posed by SBM (although with some mistakes, clarified by Progticide:
I agree with yout final comment

This question does not make sense. What has progeny of Dai got to do with recognition of Imam?

Proggies -- WHY SO SILENT ABOUT THE IMAMAT?

[Humsafar]

Proggies -- WHY SO SILENT ABOUT THE IMAMAT?

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

[Adam]

Proggies -- WHY SO SILENT ABOUT THE IMAMAT?

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

Progticide was referring to PORUS s false claims/opinions about the 21st Imam.
HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

[Humsafar]

HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

Unlike you and other abdes I do not lose sleep over what Porus or anyone else believes. What Porus believes is his business. My business is to point out that your masters have turned beliefs into a business, and abdes like are you the salesmen.

[porus]

Progticide was referring to PORUS s false claims/opinions about the 21st Imam.
HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

Humsafar,

My opinion (that Imam Tayyib was killed in infancy and therefore he has no progeny) does not invalidate historical Imamat. Similarly, for the group who doubts the legitimacy of Duaat Mutlaqeen after the 46th Dai, it does not invalidate historical Daawat. Nor do those opinions invalidate Fatimid literature and the literature produced by Fatemi/Tayyibi scholars. They are valuable historical documents. Although, one must not be tied to received opinions held by Mushriks (Adam, Progticide etc) on this board about this literature.

This whole business of 21st Imam is a red herring by Mushriks. In reality, he is not important among majority of Bohras apart from reciting his name in Dua Taqarrub and ritual touching of forehead and kissing the hand while doing it. The position of the Dai al-Mutlaq is what counts. That is of prime importance.

[porus]

Raja Bharmal does not feature much in history.....

Porof. Poo (Porus),
Couple of mistakes you made in the above detailing. Let me correct them.
1. Dai Maulai Ahmed's first converts were Balamnath (not Ramnath) and Roopnath.
2. Raja Bharmal definitely features in history till date. Raja Bharmal's son was Maulai Yaqub, the second Wali-e-Hind (after Maulai Abdullah). Maulai Ishaq, Maulai Ali and Maulai Hasan Fir who subsequently became Wali-e-Hind one after another were from Maulai Yaqub's progeny.

1. Balamnath ??? Huh!

2. Maulai Yaqub was not Raja Bharmal's son. He was, in fact, the grandson of Maharaja Jaisinh. His given name was Ajaypal which was changed to Yaqoob after he embraced Ismailism. It was he who trained Sayyedi Fakhruddin Shaheed.

[Adam]

HUMSAFAR, IF your belief is what you've stated above, what is your stance on this 21st Imam belief?
Why haven't you refuted any of Porus s comments? (P.S PORUS doesn't believe an Imamis coming, and you supposedly do)

Unlike you and other abdes I do not lose sleep over what Porus or anyone else believes. What Porus believes is his business. My business is to point out that your masters have turned beliefs into a business, and abdes like are you the salesmen.

So your above post of:

Dai: This is your new Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
Dai: Do you accept his as your Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam

Is actually just another blatant lie.
Not surprising, coming from a confused coward? (Sorry for the harsh words)