An Islamic Treatise on the Necessity of the Imamate

[Adam]

Prophet had no surviving Son so technically there is no progeny from his side.
Imamas were progeny of Ali and Fatema RAs.

Fatema is the Daughter of the Prophet SAW, and through her the Progeny lies.
The Quran also establishes this truth for the case of Maryam where it states that Isa AS was in the "Zurriyat" of Ibrahim AS (He can only be in the Progeny of Ibrahim, through Maryam, the "daughter" and not only through the "Father", as Maryam AS was a virgin).
"وَوَهَبْنا لَهُ إسحاقَ ويعقُوبَ كُلاّ ً هَدَيْنا ونُوحاً هَدَيْنا مِن قَبلُ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِهِ دَاودَ وسُلَيْمانَ وأيُّوبَ ويُوسُفَ ومُوسَـى وهارونَ وكَذَلِكَ نَجزِي المُحْسِنِى وَزَكَرِيّا ويَحيَى وعِيسى"
(Surah Anaaam 84)
Thus, the "Progeny/Zurriyat" can be through the Daughter. Same for Maryam AS and same for Fatima AS.
For those who can understand Arabic, a famous story:
http://www.adabona.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=27

Why are the Proggies, ALWAYS silent on issues that affect them also. Scared or just too dumb?

[porus]

MF,

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَنِ الرَّحِيمِ

إِنَّا أَعْطَيْنَاكَ الْكَوْثَرَ

فَصَلِّ لِرَبِّكَ وَانْحَرْ

إِنَّ شَانِئَكَ هُوَ الأَبْتَرُ


Bohras believe that 'al-kauthar' in the first ayat of this sura refers to Prophet's daughter, Fatima, and by extension to Imams. Hence, they believe that the third ayat states that the Imams will be only from Prophet's progeny through al-kauthar and that there will be no Imams from the progeny of his enemies.

[anajmi]

That seems like an acceptable taawil of that surah and I do not think I can raise any issues with that. I believe in the coming of the Imam as most sunnis do, at the time of the second coming of christ and he will be from the progeny of the prophet Muhammad (saw) through Hazrat Fatima (ra).

To extend these ayahs to the infallibility of the Dai through a hidden Imam is nothing more than a fairy tale.

[Adam]

@anajmi
That's very kind of you
Probably the nicest thing i've heard you say. Thank you.
(No pun intented, so no one make an issue out of this.) All smiles

[Humsafar]

Why are the Proggies, ALWAYS silent on issues that affect them also. Scared or just too dumb?

What affect us is not what other believe. What affect us is how our beliefs are tuned into a business.

[Hanif]

[It looks like I p ed off you and I apologize if I offended you. Now let us start again.

Please answer two questions.



Question One: Where is the doctrine of IMAAMAT in Quran ?

Question Two: How does the current IMAAM lead Shia?

First of all brother, you did not ..ed me off. You come out as an agressor on this site. It is either your way or the highway. You tried the same approach and got told off on the ismaili site. We will come to the issue of pluralism later in another post as I have said I am having technical problems especially when I try to edit my post so sometimes I have not sounded polite either but never meant to come out that way.

Having said that, I responded to your:

You can take the donkey to the water but can't force it to drink

Brother, people are not donkeys. The difference between a donkey and a person is people are given Aql to use. So you should stop forcing your beliefs on others. There are 73 sects in Islam, do you mean to tell me they are all wrong and you are right?

You are trying to find fault with everybody's belief.

[Hanif]

In Shia’s theology there are no Esteemed Sahabas. They were all crooks. So RA is not used. Instead they recite curses

I think you read what you want to read and discarded the previous and following lines.
My response was to your lengthy, explanation about where AS, SAW and RA should be used and you wrote that you would not write Rh.A after Imam Hakim AS.

And I responded to you that that was your prerogative and added that the Shias.....curse, that does not mean I should curse. I explained to you that I always write RA after the Asahabas, so does that make me a lesser Shia?

I have in my possession an article written by a 12er Shia who explains why the Asahabas should be cursed. When you read the article you would think they have valid reasons, but I still think that is not right. History has been written by people fighting each other and no one side will call the other side good. I have not posted that article because I do not like to stir a hateful debate.

To each his own and the rest is between the person and Allah S.W.T.

[Hanif]

Brother MF,

As regards the question of Pluralism, you write that only Ismailis talk about Pluralism often.

So Pluralism is an Ismaili thing? There is pluralism within the Ismaili thought! Did you know that? Bohoras have one interpretations, Nizaris have another, Druze have yet another, etc.

I think what I read on that site was that there is plurality in the Ummah. I would go even further: there is plurality in Allah SWT's creation. People of different sheds, different beliefs, etc. Everybody should get along with each other. Is that soooooooo difficult? Why interfere in other people's business? Are we so superior that we look down on others?

And as regards your question about Immamat, you have heard the bohoras explain their belief, and mine is very similar, albeit a little bit more along the line of this treastise, but do you have the stomach to digest my belief? NO

I can present it here but you and your cohorts will tear it to shreds not that I cannot respond but that will continue and I do not like that. If people can discuss intelligently, it would be a different thing but when people have made up their minds like you have, it is a waste of time . I can even present you my interpretation of Ale Imran, but you guys have one way thinking and there are not enough bohoras on this site who have enough knowledge, except for Porus; some sound bipolars (one day they will be on your side and next they will on mine) They go where the wind blows.

So let us leave it at that.

[Hanif]

Brother MF,

Thanks for the explanations of "different chambers" in the Medinah Masjid. I was very young when I went there. I went with my brother, and we did not have anybody to explain us stuff. Thanks again and God Bless.

As regards the Mughal Emperor's story:

MF, and Porus, my point was to point out to MF that the Emperor was a Sunni. Yes, he prayed to Allah S.W.T. but did not get a son so being a sunni he went to a Kabar to ask for a son.

He got the son. Of course, Allah SWT gave him that son in HIS own timing but a belief was set that a Saint gave him the son. Don't the 12ers and Bohoras go to Kerbala for the same purpose. So Sunnis do that too. What is the difference

My point to MF was that Sunnis go to Kabars too. Because he has maintained that only the Shia's go to Kabars and thump their chests. Thumping the chests was not done in the Fatimid Imam's time. This is an innovation in the bohoras. According to Karen Armstrong even in Iran they did not do that. Only 300 years ago when they were fighting against the Ottomans they started this innovation to establish their identity as Shia's fighting against the Sunnis. If you want, I can quote her.

.

[Muslim First]

Hanif
So Pluralism is an Ismaili thing? There is pluralism within the Ismaili thought! Did you know that? Bohoras have one interpretations, Nizaris have another, Druze have yet another, etc.

And none of them follow Qur'an and Sunna faithfully. Is there anything wrong in following path of Prophet and Hz Ali faithfully? Both were Muslims and not Ismaili Bohra Muslim or Nizari Muslim or Druz.

I think what I read on that site was that there is plurality in the Ummah. I would go even further: there is plurality in Allah SWT's creation. People of different sheds, different beliefs, etc. Everybody should get along with each other. Is that soooooooo difficult? Why interfere in other people's business? Are we so superior that we look down on others?

Prophet on Enjoining good and forbidding evil:
Abu Saeed al-Khudri related that the Prophet SAW said:

Whoever observes something wrong should change it with his hands. If he is unable to do so, then he should speak against it with his tongue. If he is unable to do even that, then he should at least resent it in his heart- and this is the lowest level of faith. (Related by Muslim)

[Muslim First]

MF, and Porus, my point was to point out to MF that the Emperor was a Sunni.

Just bacause somebody pinns lable Sunni does not nean you are Sunni Muslim. To be Sunni you have to fillow Qur'an and Sunna faithfully.

[Muslim First]

My point to MF was that Sunnis go to Kabars too.
Then they are devients like Shia.
Because he has maintained that only the Shia's go to Kabars and thump their chests. Thumping the chests was not done in the Fatimid Imam's time. This is an innovation in the bohoras. According to Karen Armstrong even in Iran they did not do that. Only 300 years ago when they were fighting against the Ottomans they started this innovation to establish their identity as Shia's fighting against the Sunnis. If you want, I can quote her.
So every time somebody thumps chest in Masjid then call them out.

[Muslim First]

He got the son. Of course, Allah SWT gave him that son in HIS own timing but a belief was set that a Saint gave him the son. Don't the 12ers and Bohoras go to Kerbala for the same purpose. So Sunnis do that too. What is the difference

Just bacause somebody jumps in lake you do not have to. do not cpndon it or join hands with them.

[Muslim First]

Suggestion
Read
Sirat Ibn Hisham. Down load here
http://www.esnips.com/displayimage.php?pid=783899
Or buy
Martin Lings - Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources
Acclaimed worldwide as the definitive biography of the prophet in the english language. Martin Lings' life of MUHAMMAD is unlike any other. Based on Arabic sources of the eighth and ninth centuries. It owes the freshness and directness of its approach to the words of men and women who heard MUHAMMAD speak and witnessed the events of his life.

[Muslim First]

And as regards your question about Immamat, you have heard the bohoras explain their belief, and mine is very similar, albeit a little bit more along the line of this treastise, but do you have the stomach to digest my belief? NO

Answer this
Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?

This is a very sound question. Quran is the book of guidance and we have been told by the Prophet that whenever we felt lost we can consult Quran and it will never betray us. The above doctrine is not a minor issue, it is very important. It's importance is to the extend that Shia holds that because of not believing in this doctrine, 80% of Muslims are misguided and in fact not true believers. Well, which verses of Quran have given us this doctrine?
ONLY give me the verses with NO additions to the translation and NO Hadeeth to support a certain interpretation of the verse and NO personal commentaries.

[anajmi]

I have in my possession an article written by a 12er Shia who explains why the Asahabas should be cursed.

This 12er Shia hasn't understood anything about Islam and the prophet (saw) and is most probably an idol worshipping mushrik.

So Pluralism is an Ismaili thing? There is pluralism within the Ismaili thought! Did you know that? Bohoras have one interpretations, Nizaris have another, Druze have yet another, etc.

This is a chicken and an egg scenario for some but crystal clear to me. People like bohras, nizaris, druzes and cruises develop a religion of their own and then interpret the Quran to fit their personal religions. That is how these multitude of interpretations come into place. Different religions didn't follow different interpretations. Different interpretation followed different religions. We can see numerous examples of this on this forum itself.

[Adam]

@Muslim First:

Answer this
Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?

Maybe your friend Anajmi can answer that for you. He said:

Anajmi: I believe in the coming of the Imam as most sunnis do, at the time of the second coming of christ and he will be from the progeny of the prophet Muhammad (saw) through Hazrat Fatima (ra).

@Anajmi. A very nice thought. I frankly didn't know you were of this belief.

[anajmi]

@Muslim First:

Answer this
Where is the doctrine of Imamat in Quran ?

Maybe your friend Anajmi can answer that for you. He said:

Anajmi: I believe in the coming of the Imam as most sunnis do, at the time of the second coming of christ and he will be from the progeny of the prophet Muhammad (saw) through Hazrat Fatima (ra).

@Anajmi. A very nice thought. I frankly didn't know you were of this belief.

Thank you. Your ignorance in these matters is not a secret.

The coming of the Imam is from hadith. Quran doesn't talk about the coming of any Imam. The bohra concept of "Imamat" doesn't exist in the Quran.

[Muslim First]

A very nice thought. I frankly didn't know you were of this belief.

Adam Bhai Saheb
I thought you were smart enough to figure out.

[Hanif]

Hanif

So Pluralism is an Ismaili thing? There is pluralism within the Ismaili thought! Did you know that? Bohoras have one interpretations, Nizaris have another, Druze have yet another, etc.
And none of them follow Qur'an and Sunna faithfully. Is there anything wrong in following path of Prophet and Hz Ali faithfully? Both were Muslims and not Ismaili Bohra Muslim or Nizari Muslim or Druz.
I think what I read on that site was that there is plurality in the Ummah. I would go even further: there is plurality in Allah SWT's creation. People of different sheds, different beliefs, etc. Everybody should get along with each other. Is that soooooooo difficult? Why interfere in other people's business? Are we so superior that we look down on others?
Prophet on Enjoining good and forbidding evil:

Abu Saeed al-Khudri related that the Prophet SAW said:

Whoever observes something wrong should change it with his hands. If he is unable to do so, then he should speak against it with his tongue. If he is unable to do even that, then he should at least resent it in his heart- and this is the lowest level of faith. (Related by Muslim)

To behonest with you I do not believe Prophet SAW said any such thing. He was the most peaceful person on earth. If somebody was uttering his prayers wrong (with his tongue) how would you change with your hands? Slap him?

Prophet knew the Jewish woman would throw garbage on him and yet he passed her house everyday. He did not correct her with his hands, tongue or resent her. He went to see her instead when one day she did not throw anything on him.

So please save your ahadith for others.

[anajmi]

You know, people blame wahhabis for being literalists, but here is a perfect example of how "non-literalists" create a straw man out of a literal understanding of a hadith and then beat it down. Simply pathetic!!

He was the most peaceful person on earth.

Hopefully, you won't be denying that he fought in the battle of Badr and Uhud and Khandaq and others, or maybe you will. With the kind of understanding you people have of the life of the prophet (saw), nothing is unexpected!!

[Hanif]

Anajmi,

I have in my possession an article written by a 12er Shia who explains why the Asahabas should be cursed.
So Pluralism is an Ismaili thing? There is pluralism within the Ismaili thought! Did you know that? Bohoras have one interpretations, Nizaris have another, Druze have yet another, etc.


This is a chicken and an egg scenario for some but crystal clear to me. People like bohras, nizaris, druzes and cruises develop a religion of their own and then interpret the Quran to fit their personal religions. That is how these multitude of interpretations come into place. Different religions didn't follow different interpretations. Different interpretation followed different religions. We can see numerous examples of this on this forum itse

Before Islam, there were other religions led by Prophets of that time. Their hidyah was suitable for that time. For instance , when the Prophet of Islam rose in arabia, there was nothing but Jahaliyat. People were burying their girl babies alive. That is one example. This is making a turn around with people who think they are superior to others. We saw what happened to a little young girl who was not born as a boy through no fault of hers.

Allah SWT says in the Qur'an that he made different nations so they may know each other.

So before Islam there were other religions because as we believe there were 124,000 Prophets. Everybody's message was that of of Islam=Peace. Not What the Muslims practice today because there is no Peace in their hearts, and they do not practice peace as we can see on this forum. They are preaching hatred and dividing the Umma.

Look around you and tell me who is killing more people in the name of religion? Is this Islam.

Anajmi says:This 12er Shia hasn't understood anything about Islam and the prophet (saw) and is most probably an idol worshipping mushrik

Would you say people who kiss the Kaba, and who do ziyara of Hazarat Abu Bakar RA and Hazarat Umar RA and offer Fateha at the site of the asahabas are mushriks too? If not why?

[Hanif]

Anajmi:

Hopefully, you won't be denying that he fought in the battle of Badr and Uhud and Khandaq and others, or maybe you will. With the kind of understanding you people have of the life of the prophet (saw), nothing is unexpected!!

He did not start those wars. Enemies started them. Islam permits to defend oneself. Believe me we have better understanding of the Life of the Prophet than you do. That is why we are peaceful people. You guys just know to use his name and the Qur'an to justify your awful actions. West has a notion of the sword bearing Prophet of Islam, who did not hesitate to kill anybody who did not accept Islam. All because you guys come om TV and use him to justify your pervert actions.

[Hanif]

MF, and Porus, my point was to point out to MF that the Emperor was a Sunni.


Just bacause somebody pinns lable Sunni does not nean you are Sunni Muslim. To be Sunni you have to fillow Qur'an and Sunna faithfully

You call yourself a Sunni Muslim, Anajmi calls himself a Sunni Muslim. But look at your actions on this board do they justify the Qur'an and Sunna of the Prophet?

Are you as humble as the Prophet SAW and Hazarat Ali AS? No, you are full of hot air.
Qur'an says to each his own. Let people follow what they want. But you have created innovations and quote ahadith saying Prophet said this and that. If you follow the Sunna of the Prophet SAW, you would not attribute such nonsense to him. Case closed

[Hanif]

MF wrote:

My point to MF was that Sunnis go to Kabars too.

Then they are devients like Shia.

Because he has maintained that only the Shia's go to Kabars and thump their chests. Thumping the chests was not done in the Fatimid Imam's time. This is an innovation in the bohoras. According to Karen Armstrong even in Iran they did not do that. Only 300 years ago when they were fighting against the Ottomans they started this innovation to establish their identity as Shia's fighting against the Sunnis. If you want, I can quote her.

So every time somebody thumps chest in Masjid then call them out.

Calling out anybody thumping their chests is your job. I do not want to take away your pleasure. I mind my own business.

[Hanif]

Suggestion

Read

Sirat Ibn Hisham. Down load here

http://www.esnips.com/displayimage.php?pid=783899
Or buy

Martin Lings - Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources

Acclaimed worldwide as the definitive biography of the prophet in the english language. Martin Lings' life of MUHAMMAD is unlike any other. Based on Arabic sources of the eighth and ninth centuries. It owes the freshness and directness of its approach to the words of men and women who heard MUHAMMAD speak and witnessed the events of his life.

I just wasted my time reading Sirat Ibn Hisham. I read up to page 33 and then stopped because this is what I found:
Ibn-Ishaq said, “Among things which reached me about that which had beeen revealed to Isa, the Son of Mary in the Gospel for his followers described the messenger of Allah (pbuh), according to Yuhannas, the Apostle when he inscribed the Gospel for them from the Testament of Isa, the son of Mary, concerning the Messenger of Allah (pbuh), that he said, “He who hates me, hates the Lord. Except for that I had done in their presence things that no one had done before me, they would have not had a sin. However, now they are discontented and think that they will overcome me….But when the Manhamanna,who Allah (?) (Does Bible refer to God as Allah) will send to you and who is sacred spirit from the Lord, comes, he will be a witness of me and you also because you were with me in the past. I am telling you about this not to have any doubt




John 15:23-26 (New International Version)
View In My Bible

John 27

He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.





Footnotes (a-z)
Cross references (#)
Red letter
One verse per line
23 He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.' 26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Then here is the Ahmediyah vesion which I have. (I read all religions and try to understand their beliefs and not criticise them)

Habakkuk 3:37
Here we have a mention of Tema and of a Holy One from Paran.
From the prophecies of Moses and Habakkuk it is evident that the advent
of Jesus was not to mark the last stage in the spiritual development of
man. It was to be followed by the advent of another Prophet to mark the
third manifestation of divine glory. This prophet was to manifest both the
Beauty and the Majesty of God and bring a fiery Law into the world, not
merely a Message of forgiveness.
The Holy One to appear from the land of Tema and Mount Paran is
the Holy Prophet Muhammad, and his fiery Law is the Quran which has
the virtue of consuming to ashes the stuff of which sins and satanic
machinations are made. Moses truly said that the Promised One, rising
from Paran, would be accompanied by ten thousand saints. As all the
world knows, it was the Holy Prophet of lslam who rose from Paran and
marched into Mecca with ten thousand followers.



HADRAT MIRZA BASHIR-UD-DIN MAHMUD AHMAD
(KHALIFATUL-MASIH II)

I have heard of Martin Lingus book, will Inshallah get to it some day. The reason I am turned off by Ibn Ishaq is there is no mention of Mannaman in any of the Bibles I went on Line to look at. This is the problem with you people. You think you are ignorant and so is the rest of the world. I bet you did not think I would down load the book. Well, I did. This is why I do not trust your people.

Ma Salaama

[Hanif]

If you are Niazari Ismaili Shia then you have no problem since you have Aga Khan to lead you to Jannah, Inshah Allah and good luck to you.



If you are Ithnashari (12ver) or Mustali Ismaili then tell me how your Imam leads you?

First of all No Nizari Imam, No Hidden imam of the other two can lead you to Jannah. Jannah is not the private possession of the Imams. Having said that, any Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Budhist, Sufi, etc. can go to Jannah with good Amals, without any FITNAH. Fitnah is Gunah Kabira. Destroys all your deeds.

We should learn to be tolerant = good amal

Help the needy, poor, orphans, etc. all year round not only in the month of Ramadhan = good amal
Pray as much as you can and not only 3 times or 5 times a day. Allah SWT says not to waste any minute without rememberance of his name + good amal

And above all do not libel and slander others out of jealousy, Instead correct yourselves and be like them = good amal

Above all mind your business, i.e. follow your own religion to the best of your ability and do not point fingers at others and hurt their feelings.

[Muslim First]

Hanif Posts: 29Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:11 am
Would you say people who kiss the Kaba, and who do ziyara of Hazarat Abu Bakar RA and Hazarat Umar RA and offer Fateha at the site of the asahabas are mushriks too? If not why?

Ziyarat of Hazarat Abu Bakar RA and Hazarat Umar RA is not required.Even Ziyarat of Prophet SAW is not requred.
It is recommended that you visit Prophet's Mosque if you can afford it.

Ref:When visiting the Grave
The first thing we must do when we visit any graveyard is invoke the prayer that the Messenger of Allah (saws) used to invoke whenever he visited a graveyard.
THE DUA IS: 'AS SALAAM ALEIKUM AHLED-DIYAAR MINAL MUSLIMEENA WAL MUMINEEN, WA INNA INSHA ALLAH BEKUM LAHIQOON. YAGFIRALLAHU LANA WA LAKUM.

EXACT TRANSLATION WOULD BE: "PEACE BE UPON YOU, O PEOPLE OF THIS PLACE (GRAVEYARD) FROM THE MUSLIMEEN AND MUMINEEN. WE, TOO, GOD WILLING, ARE COMING BEHIND YOU. MAY ALLAH FORGIVE US AND YOU ALL."
'Peace be upon you, O people of this place (graveyard).We too are coming behind you.May Allah forgive us and you all.'
Then make dua and supplication as related in the aayahs quoted above, or make dua in your own language to Allah to forgive them, have mercy on them, and raise their status in Paradise, etc.
It is not proven from the deeds of the Prophet (saws), that he would water the graves, or pray any particular Surah from the Holy Quran on the graves; thus we should avoid doing anything that the Messenger of Allah (saws) did not do.To pray any particular Surah everytime one visits the grave is not from the Sunnah of the Prophet (saws); and thus it is an innovation.And as it with all innovations, it must be avoided.He (saws) used to visit the graveyard and supplicate Allah, and make extensive duas in their favor; and we should always follow the Prophet (saws) in whatever we do.
Kissing Hajr e Aswad
Please read this
http://www.islamhelpline.net/node/1132
http://www.islamhelpline.net/node/274

[Muslim First]

Hanif
Above all mind your business, i.e. follow your own religion to the best of your ability and do not point fingers at others and hurt their feelings.

Calling out anybody thumping their chests is your job. I do not want to take away your pleasure. I mind my own business.

How do you reconcile your Hidaya with the following Hadith from Prophet SAW

Enjoining good and forbidding evil:
Abu Saeed al-Khudri related that the Prophet SAW said:

Whoever observes something wrong should change it with his hands. If he is unable to do so, then he should speak against it with his tongue. If he is unable to do even that, then he should at least resent it in his heart- and this is the lowest level of faith. (Related by Muslim)

[Muslim First]

@Hanif
If you do not want other Muslims to participate in debate about Imamat/Imam then who you are trying to convince with your first post of this thread?